IRC log of tagmem on 2005-10-04

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:58:07 [RRSAgent]
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16:58:07 [RRSAgent]
logging to
16:58:37 [DanC]
link from agenda to ftf minutes is goofy
16:58:54 [DanC]
-> TAG meeting 20-22 Sep near EDI
16:59:05 [Vincent]
Oooops! Sorry, fixed
17:00:12 [Zakim]
17:01:01 [Zakim]
17:01:08 [DanC]
I sure wanted to make progress on namespaceDocument-8 last week. Sorry I didn't.
17:01:35 [Zakim]
17:01:57 [Roy]
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17:02:29 [Norm]
Any chance you'll get to it this week, DanC ?
17:02:56 [DanC]
yes, i think so.
17:03:08 [Zakim]
17:03:20 [Zakim]
17:03:27 [Zakim]
17:03:36 [dorchard]
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17:03:51 [Roy]
Scribe: Roy Fielding
17:03:58 [Roy]
ScribeNick: Roy
17:04:13 [Roy]
Topic: Administrative
17:04:25 [Roy]
Zakim, who is here
17:04:25 [Zakim]
Roy, you need to end that query with '?'
17:04:27 [Roy]
Zakim, who is here?
17:04:27 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Norm, DanC, Vincent_Quint, Roy_Fielding, Noah_Mendelsohn, DOrchard, Ed
17:04:29 [Zakim]
On IRC I see dorchard, Roy, RRSAgent, Zakim, Vincent, Norm, ht, DanC
17:05:00 [Roy]
VQ: Next week telecon is okay? [yes]
17:05:13 [Roy]
VQ: scribe for next week?
17:05:15 [Ed]
Ed has joined #tagmem
17:05:28 [Roy]
Ed: I'll scribe next week
17:05:52 [Roy]
VQ: and the following week Henry is due to scribe
17:06:19 [Roy]
DC: add *something* to the agenda
17:06:43 [Roy]
Regrets: TimBL, Henry
17:07:38 [DanC]
Regrets+ HT
17:07:44 [Roy]
VQ: have enough people read the minutes? [no] Defer accepting until next week, so please read them
17:09:07 [DanC]
ACTION DanC: link parts of ftf minutes to meeting page
17:09:16 [noah]
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17:10:28 [Roy]
Topic: Issue endPointRefs-47
17:10:50 [DanC]
-> endPointRefs-47 4 Oct 2005 from Dave O
17:11:16 [Roy]
DO: I disagree with the TAG's rough consenus on 47
17:11:45 [DanC]
(so the decision didn't stick. oh well; nice try.)
17:12:04 [Roy]
DO: giving guidance to EPR minters that they should use the address field suffers from the problem that the W3C has not provided sufficient technology for them to do this
17:13:42 [Roy]
DO: 3) stateful resources is more that EPR, such as HTTP cookies as session ids, people use them in almost all significant server apps, and criticizing EPRs without acknowledging that people are creating stateful services
17:14:09 [Roy]
... seems wrong
17:14:22 [DanC]
q+ to note we don't seem to have an issue to collect the cookie/state discussions; perhaps we need one
17:14:47 [Roy]
DO: TAG could do nothing at all, say there is no issue, and ack that they are separate architectures not on the Web
17:15:19 [Roy]
DO: or TAG could work on stateful services as a separate architecture
17:15:39 [noah]
+1 to Dan's suggestion
17:15:43 [Roy]
DO: or TAG could work on creating a solution that places these services on the Web
17:15:55 [DanC]
(ah... we do seem to have a recorded action "David to write material on state in distributed application design [12 jul 05]")
17:16:18 [Vincent]
ack danc
17:16:18 [Zakim]
DanC, you wanted to note we don't seem to have an issue to collect the cookie/state discussions; perhaps we need one
17:16:53 [noah]
q+ to ask how fast we need to have feedback to wsa
17:16:57 [Roy]
DC: I don't think you need to convince us ... our decision was contingent on consensus and you seem to disagree, so we should work on a solution
17:18:03 [Roy]
DC: I worked on a SOAP to HTTP binding that made SOAP resource addressable as URIs, so we can work on educational material to improve this situation. Should we also press to create technology?
17:18:11 [DanC]
(remind me what technology we asked for? I thought we just asked for primer text)
17:18:27 [DanC]
s/DC: I worked/DO: I worked/
17:18:56 [Vincent]
ack noah
17:18:56 [Zakim]
noah, you wanted to ask how fast we need to have feedback to wsa
17:18:58 [Roy]
DO: we may have missed the train
17:19:52 [Roy]
NM: the plan makes a lot of sense, but WSA folks are late in the process and if we are going to do this in a finding then we should do so before they have completed the process
17:20:14 [Roy]
DO: They are already in CR, so it is perilously close to being too late already
17:20:20 [DanC]
(double-checking... yup... ws-addressing is at CR as of 17 August 2005)
17:20:44 [Roy]
DO: we could ask for a binding of EPRs to URIs (?)
17:21:17 [Roy]
DC: Have you sketched this out somewhere?
17:21:26 [Roy]
DO: yes, I'll look for link
17:21:51 [dorchard]
17:22:16 [DanC]
(hmm... title doesn't connect to ws-a "WS-REST continued: do we need an HTTP Transfer SOAP binding and simplified WSDL?")
17:22:36 [DanC]
(ah... but ws-a is in the 1st screenful)
17:22:54 [Roy]
NM: maybe we could make a fast-track approach to figure out what we would like to happen and give a direction, so that we can then decide whether we need to interfere with WSA progress
17:23:08 [dorchard]
17:23:26 [Roy]
VQ: what can we do in the next few weeks? should we get back to this in the next telecon?
17:23:49 [DanC]
q+ to float the idea of inviting the ws-a chair next week.
17:24:00 [Roy]
DO: I could write up something elaborating the issue and potential solutions
17:24:10 [Roy]
VQ: when?
17:24:16 [Roy]
DO: by next telecon
17:24:21 [noah]
17:24:37 [Vincent]
ack danc
17:24:37 [Zakim]
DanC, you wanted to float the idea of inviting the ws-a chair next week.
17:25:05 [Roy]
ACTION: DO to draft something indicating the issues with EPR and potential solutions
17:26:19 [noah]
zakim, who is here?
17:26:19 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Norm, DanC, Vincent_Quint, Roy_Fielding, Noah_Mendelsohn, DOrchard, Ed
17:26:21 [Zakim]
On IRC I see noah, Ed, dorchard, Roy, RRSAgent, Zakim, Vincent, Norm, ht, DanC
17:26:30 [Roy]
DO: am working on web services for versioning ... will shuffle that back on the pile if EPR is more time critical
17:26:47 [DanC]
David to write material on state in distributed application design [12 jul 05] [CONTINUES]
17:26:47 [Zakim]
17:26:55 [DanC]
ACTION: David to write material on state in distributed application design [12 jul 05] [CONTINUES]
17:27:14 [Ed]
Phone is dead.. retrying :(
17:27:34 [Roy]
Topic: Issue mediaTypeManagement-45
17:27:47 [Roy]
VQ: just an update
17:28:13 [Roy]
17:29:13 [Roy]
DO: this goes all the way back to original media type specs, how to version PostScript
17:29:23 [Roy]
17:29:46 [Roy]
DC: I think this is an issue for the CDF wg
17:30:33 [Roy]
NM: I also had an issue with the assumption of octet streams versus bit streams in media types
17:30:50 [DanC]
s/DO: this goes/DC: this goes/
17:31:11 [DanC]
hamming distance between DO and DC clearly to small. you can call us DaveO/DanC if it helps
17:31:58 [Roy]
VQ: do you think it would be helpful to check with CDF WG where they are on this issue?
17:32:10 [Zakim]
17:32:11 [Roy]
DC: hold on.. looking
17:32:25 [DanC]
-> CDF issue 18
17:33:56 [Zakim]
17:34:03 [Roy]
ACTION: VQ to check with CDF WG to see how they have solved issue and if they have more details
17:34:19 [DanC]
hmm... they have another issue, "Identification, MIME type and Accept headers" that's still open.
17:34:40 [Roy]
Topic: Issue xml11Names-46
17:34:51 [Roy]
17:35:39 [noah]
q+ to report on schema status
17:35:43 [Roy]
VQ: checking June 2004 minutes the TAG resolved to move issue to pending state
17:36:22 [Roy]
VQ: is this something we need to record in issues list?
17:36:47 [Roy]
DC: Norm handed the ball to XML CG
17:37:25 [Roy]
ACTION: Norm to check on current status of issue xml11Names-46 with XML CG
17:37:46 [Roy]
NM: Scheme WG is also looking at this
17:37:53 [Roy]
17:38:39 [Roy]
NM: may or may not have coordinated that with XML CG
17:39:17 [Roy]
Topic: Issue schemeProtocols-49
17:39:31 [Roy]
17:39:50 [Roy]
VQ: recall NM was not sure it was worth spending more time on
17:40:12 [Roy]
NM: I thought it was an area worth working on when I was new to TAG
17:40:42 [DanC]
q+ to say I very much enjoyed the circles-and-arrows discussion of versioning, and to ask if maybe it would help to try to formalize schemeProtocols likewise
17:40:53 [Vincent]
ack noah
17:40:53 [Zakim]
noah, you wanted to report on schema status
17:41:03 [Roy]
NM: whether and to what extent the URI scheme determined the protocol and how that effects the nature of resources in that scheme
17:41:44 [Roy]
NM: In June I said I wanted to write something new ... spent the summer toying with that.
17:42:32 [DanC]
q+ to note feed:
17:43:38 [Roy]
NM: it is not a rush, it is not clearly broken, let's postpone it until we deal with P2P issues and have further discussion on how the resolution process should work.
17:45:31 [Roy]
DC: Tim Bray had written something about making RSS a one-click, so I was thinking about how we could do that. Perhaps a SUBSCRIBE method is needed in general for reloading feeds, web pages, etc.
17:46:01 [Vincent]
17:46:54 [Roy]
DC: would like to find a general statement that says "webcal" and "feed": please don't do that
17:48:10 [Roy]
NM: there is an attempt to explain the confusion in the draft
17:48:58 [Roy]
DC: problem is that it is easier to make the misunderstanding greater than it is to find a precise description of what is actually in the architecture
17:51:54 [Roy]
RF: the problem is that schemes are not uniform at all in their prescription of resource and representation characteristics and it is actual the finer subtleties of the architecture that make it so extensible.
17:52:49 [Roy]
RF: HTTP, for example, is at its essence a layer of indirection, and because of that it is capable of far more than the simplified view of "here is a sequnce of octets"
17:53:30 [noah]
Noah has to go...I will be on the call next week. See you then.
17:53:32 [Roy]
Topic: Issue URNsAndRegistries-50
17:53:38 [Zakim]
17:53:51 [DanC]
Zakim, is henry here?
17:53:51 [Zakim]
DanC, I do not see Henry anywhere
17:53:52 [Roy]
17:54:19 [Roy]
DC: as I recall, HT still has the ball on this issue
17:55:04 [Roy]
DC and NW: waiting of Henry to say he is done, please review
17:55:13 [Roy]
17:55:42 [Roy]
ACTION: VQ to check with Henry on progress on URNsAndRegistries-50
17:55:55 [dorchard]
17:56:05 [Vincent]
ack danc
17:56:05 [Zakim]
DanC, you wanted to say I very much enjoyed the circles-and-arrows discussion of versioning, and to ask if maybe it would help to try to formalize schemeProtocols likewise and to
17:56:08 [Zakim]
... note feed:
17:56:39 [Roy]
Topic: circles-and-arrows discussion of versioning at F2F
17:56:44 [Vincent]
17:56:45 [DanC]
17:57:06 [DanC]
17:57:26 [DanC]
17:58:41 [Roy]
DC: I would like to see more diagrams that can be run though RDF-style XML and inferencing engine
17:59:03 [noah]
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17:59:09 [Roy]
DO: I'll look into my tools to see if they can generate XML
18:00:49 [Roy]
ACTION: DO to update extensibility finding with the result of Edinburgh F2F discussion and related diagrams
18:00:51 [DanC]
18:01:16 [DanC]
-> violet UML diagrat tool
18:03:22 [Roy]
18:05:19 [DanC]
DanC gets some encouragement to supplement EDI minutes with diagrams, provided he gets some review, e.g. from henry
18:05:19 [Vincent]
ack dorchard
18:05:26 [Roy]
DC: will try to provide diagrams for minutes of F2F before next week
18:05:57 [Vincent]
18:07:49 [DanC]
(what VQ says about meeting schedule is consistent with Date: 2005/09/30 15:20:22 )
18:08:25 [Roy]
VQ: Ed should check that with his schedule and confirm
18:09:01 [Zakim]
18:09:03 [Zakim]
18:09:03 [Roy]
18:09:04 [Zakim]
18:09:06 [Zakim]
18:09:15 [Roy]
rrsagent, pointer?
18:09:15 [RRSAgent]
18:09:35 [Roy]
rrsagent, make world accessible
18:09:35 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make world accessible', Roy. Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:10:36 [DanC]
RRSAgent, make logs world-access
18:11:19 [Roy]
rrsagent, bookmark?
18:11:19 [RRSAgent]
18:12:42 [DanC]
oops... daveo, on state, looks like I have an action to review stuff you already wrote.
18:13:36 [DanC]
postscript: VQ, you can mark this one done without discussion: DanC to notify the SW CG that we talked about rdfURIMeaning-39 and didn't decide to do anything now
18:19:46 [Vincent]
OK DanC. I'll mark it done.
18:20:38 [Norm]
DanC: I added links from the errata page back to the actual sections in the document per your request a few weeks ago
18:35:01 [Zakim]
disconnecting the lone participant, Roy_Fielding, in TAG_Weekly()12:30PM
18:35:04 [Zakim]
TAG_Weekly()12:30PM has ended
18:35:06 [Zakim]
Attendees were Norm, DanC, Vincent_Quint, Roy_Fielding, Noah_Mendelsohn, DOrchard, Ed
18:35:15 [DanC]
cool, norm.
19:28:35 [Norm]
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20:04:19 [noah]
noah has joined #tagmem
20:15:34 [noah]
noah has joined #tagmem
20:28:27 [noah]
Dan, you there?
20:28:37 [DanC]
hi noah
20:28:48 [DanC]
btw... "DanC" rings a bell
20:30:21 [noah]
I'll remember bell for next time Just reviewing the minutes I took on Tues ( Says: >> Dan will paste link to technical details here before minutes are public <<
20:30:21 [noah]
Do you still want to do that?
20:30:51 [noah]
If you want to send pertinent link, I'll see that it gets into whatever is final copy of minutes. If not, I'll just delete the promise.
20:32:49 [Zakim]
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20:33:35 [noah]
You can respond by email if more convenient. I'll be trying to wrap up the final copy tomorrow AM. Thanks.
20:33:57 [DanC]
the link is in the slides. it's just
20:34:50 [noah]
OK, thanks. I'll see that it gets in. And then I'm tempted to ask: what slides?
20:36:04 [DanC]
the ones I presented.
20:36:09 [noah]
Should I care? I don't think the minutes reference slides, but as you can see, that was one spot where I got behind in recording what you said. If you prefer to have a clearer record, just send me a sentence or two in email and I'll put in the minutes. Otherwise, all set. Thanks.
20:36:09 [noah]
In any case, I'll record
20:36:21 [DanC]
yes, the minutes do reference the slides
20:36:36 [DanC]
might be nice to move the reference to the slides up
20:36:42 [DanC]
right now the pointer to the slides is after the discussion
20:39:38 [noah]
OK. I must have been jetlagged. Did you actually show the slides in the meeting? A mind is a terrible thing to waste.
20:39:38 [noah]
I remember your going into very useful detail about digest auth, etc., forgot you used slides.
20:39:38 [noah]
I'll move the reference up.
20:40:17 [noah]
Anyway, I've got to head home. Seems like I've got what I need to clean up minutes. If there's anything else you want reflected, just send email. Thanks.
20:40:31 [DanC]
yes, I showed the slides. they were very sketchy
20:41:43 [noah]
OK. All set. Thanks for the details. Byue
20:41:48 [noah]