13:56:01 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #swbp
13:56:02 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/09/20-swbp-irc
13:56:08 <RalphS> Meeting: SWBPD RDF-in-XHTML TF
13:58:18 <Steven> Steven has joined #swbp
14:00:36 <Zakim> SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)10:00AM has now started
14:00:44 <Zakim> +Ralph
14:02:00 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
14:02:00 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
14:02:01 <Zakim> +Steven
14:06:16 <Zakim> +??P6
14:06:32 <MarkB_> MarkB_ has joined #swbp
14:06:43 <Steven> zakim, ? is Jeremy
14:06:43 <Zakim> +Jeremy; got it
14:07:17 <Zakim> +CraigN
14:07:29 <RalphS> zakim, craig is really MarkB
14:07:29 <Zakim> +MarkB; got it
14:08:11 <RalphS> zakim, who's on the call?
14:08:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ralph, Steven, Jeremy, MarkB
14:08:46 <RalphS> Topic: Convene, Review records
14:08:48 <jjc> jjc has joined #swbp
14:11:11 <RalphS> Ralph: only TF participants who are WG participants are _expected_ to attend the Galway f2f but I expect that if Mark and Steven were interested in attending we wouldl make them welcome
14:11:32 <RalphS> Previous: 2005-08-16 http://www.w3.org/2005/08/16-swbp-minutes.html
14:11:34 <RalphS> Chair: Ralph
14:12:45 <RalphS> Topic: Issues walkthrough
14:12:58 <RalphS> -> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2005-current-issues issues list
14:13:44 <RalphS> -- QNames in href and about
14:14:07 <RalphS> Steven: add bnodes issue to current-issues
14:14:47 <RalphS> ... from Hypertext CG, the suggestion came (from Bert Bos perhaps) to invent a URN to represent QNames
14:15:06 <RalphS> Mark: we discussed this before.  IPTC folk were not impressed by this solution
14:15:20 <RalphS> ... IPTC wants to keep the identifiers as short as possible
14:15:36 <RalphS> ... ideally they'd like to be able to carry forward their current identifiers unchanged
14:16:12 <RalphS> ... ease-of-use is the foremost concern
14:16:58 <RalphS> Steven: how can we know what really will be barriers to adoption?
14:17:29 <RalphS> Mark: we'd need to register a naming authority for URN
14:17:41 <RalphS> Steven: could do urn:iptc:...
14:19:03 <RalphS> Ralph: so the RDF community would like IPTC to run a resolution service that essentially reinvents the http: resolution service
14:19:16 <RalphS> Jeremy: there would also be an issue with name collision
14:19:29 <RalphS> ... qnames allow relatively long URIs to be used in a concise way
14:19:55 <RalphS> ... whereas URN or any other URI scheme has to deal with the fact that you're sharing a global identifier space hence URIs need to be long
14:20:35 <RalphS> Mark: I came to the conclusion that we shouldn't touch qnames; that it's naughtly to use them in this way to represent every possible URI
14:21:19 <RalphS> ... so rather than trying to make URIs and QNames co-exist in the same attribute and to loosen the syntax constraints on QNames, I proposed a new datatype CURI -- conmpact URI
14:21:40 <RalphS> ... doesn't make any clames to be like a QName
14:21:50 <RalphS> ... have discussed this with IPTC and they are supportive
14:22:12 <RalphS> ... CURI syntax similar to common Wiki usage
14:22:56 <RalphS> ... we would need two attributes to support such a mechanism; i.e. not squeeze both URI and QName into a single attribute
14:24:03 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Jul/0019.html
14:25:28 <RalphS> Ralph: has this proposal been discussed in any other forum?
14:25:49 <RalphS> Steven: no, the HTML WG would likely think it outside their scope
14:25:54 <RalphS> ... it could go to the Hypertext CG
14:26:40 <RalphS> ... Bert Bos' comment came when I mentioned the CURI idea
14:26:54 <RalphS> Jeremy: URNs do involve some sort of registry
14:27:44 <RalphS> ... a compact URI scheme could have a short scheme component followed by a string to be substituted according to some application context
14:27:57 <RalphS> ... could give the power of QNames without the syntactic overhead of it being an XML thing
14:28:17 <RalphS> ... feels do-able but it would be a stretch to get a new URI scheme
14:28:40 <RalphS> Steven: CURI doesn't propose a new URI scheme but rather a new datatype that is interpreted in a new way to produce a URI
14:29:18 <RalphS> Mark: CURI doesn't solve the problem of making URIs and QNames coexist
14:30:41 <RalphS> ... I'd like to see CURI along with square brackets used
14:30:57 <RalphS> ... '[ ]' would denote CURIs so that legacy code stays the same
14:31:24 <RalphS> Steven: perhaps this could be added in XHTML2; we're in control of our own datatypes
14:31:33 <RalphS> ... as long as URIs are a subset it is backwards compatible
14:32:11 <RalphS> ... and we add an interpretation rule for the attribute value enclosed in [..]
14:32:31 <RalphS> Mark: there may be a precedent for something like this; an attribute that can take one of 2 values
14:32:54 <RalphS> ... IPTC might not be happy even with square brackets
14:33:06 <RalphS> Jeremy: could do just a leading character, e.g. '^'
14:33:58 <RalphS> Mark: note that a CURI starting with a ':' is one without string substitution, so any URI becomes a CURI with a ':' prefix
14:34:27 <RalphS> Steven: as long as old content looks the same and is interpreted the same we can add rules for new syntax
14:34:45 <RalphS> Jeremy: all the URI schemes in the registry could be defined as builtins
14:35:11 <RalphS> ... any new URI schemes could be required to follow additional contraints
14:35:36 <jjc> xmlns:skype="skype:"
14:36:04 <RalphS> Steven: I think we're best-off if we say only that new content is indicated in a different way
14:36:24 <RalphS> Jeremy: I've recently been testing URI code and have found that it is difficult to write an illegal URI
14:36:52 <RalphS> ... it's surprisingly tricky to break the URI syntax
14:37:42 <RalphS> Mark: [our product] uses '{}' in some URIs and only recently I discovered a URI parser that throws these out
14:40:07 <RalphS> ... if we went with Jeremy's leading-character proposal it could be viewed as a new class of URI schemes
14:40:39 <RalphS> Jeremy: no, better to make the leading character indicate datatype
14:42:44 <RalphS> Ralph: do you think IPTC would be more receptive to this leading-character proposal than to additional attributes?
14:42:48 <RalphS> Mark: perhaps so
14:42:48 <Steven> I think the colon looks good as initial character: href=":iptc:12345"
14:43:02 <Steven> It also suggests an empty scheme
14:46:52 <jjc> ":iptc:12345" is not a URI and hence is appropriate as a compact URI format
14:47:03 <RalphS> Mark: looking at the examples in my 19 July email, the CURI proposal effectively codifies some existing practice
14:47:21 <RalphS> ... whereas a new leading character is new practice
14:48:04 <RalphS> ... e.g. anyone who uses joseki will be comfortable with joseki: being interpreted as a substitution
14:49:30 <RalphS> Jeremy: I'm not advocating leading-character versus surrounding '[ ]
14:49:45 <RalphS> ... strongly; just describing alternatives
14:50:03 <Zakim> This conference is scheduled to end in 10 minutes; all ports must be freed
14:51:30 <RalphS> -- bnodes
14:51:35 <Steven> Topic: Bnodes
14:52:09 <RalphS> Jeremy: adopting the direction of the CURI idea; we could say that '_' is one of those schemes that denotes bnodes
14:52:21 <RalphS> Mark: we still need to identify the node
14:52:33 <Steven> s/Topic: Bnodes//
14:52:52 <RalphS> Jeremy: the ID suffices to identify the bnode
14:53:38 <jjc> :_:1 vs [_:1]
14:54:11 <Steven> I think href=":_:foo" looks fine
14:54:56 <MarkB_> I think it looks too much like a 'scheme'.
14:55:01 <RalphS>     ACTION: JJC to review rdf concepts and fragments
14:55:01 <RalphS>     [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action10]
14:55:02 <Zakim> This conference is scheduled to end in 5 minutes; all ports must be freed
14:56:05 <jjc> Jeremy said that rdf:about and rdf:href with bnode ":_:aa" is sufficient
14:56:07 <RalphS> -- continued
14:56:44 <RalphS>     ACTION: Mark to check edge cases of inheritance in RDF/A
14:56:44 <RalphS>     [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action06]
14:56:55 <RalphS> -- continues
14:57:02 <RalphS>     ACTION: All take a serious look at Mark's [3]bnode proposal summary
14:57:02 <RalphS>     [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action07]
14:57:09 <RalphS> -- continues
14:57:15 <RalphS>     ACTION: Ben to put together the "ACID" test for XHTML2 RDF/A
14:57:15 <RalphS>     [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action02]
14:57:18 <RalphS> -- continues
14:58:02 <Zakim> This conference is scheduled to end in 2 minutes; all ports must be freed
14:58:58 <RalphS> Mark: IPTC has a big meeting the end of October (week ending 29th)
14:59:02 <Zakim> This conference is scheduled to end in 1 minute; all ports must be freed
14:59:08 <RalphS> ... they'll be discussing their metadata syntax there
14:59:21 <RalphS> ... I have a deadline of next Monday to produce a new RDF/A draft
14:59:23 <jjc> http://www.iptc.org/pages/index.php 
14:59:27 <Steven> 24 - 27 Oct 2005     IPTC Autumn Meeting in Milan (Italy)
15:00:03 <Zakim> This conference is scheduled to end now; all ports must be freed immediately
15:00:04 <Zakim> The time reserved for this conference has been exceeded. 6 ports must be freed
15:00:36 <RalphS> Ralph: can you share that document with the TF?
15:00:58 <RalphS> Mark: yes, I believe so.  After Monday I will send that document or an edited version to the TF
15:01:48 <RalphS> next meeting: 27 Sep, 1400 UTC
15:01:49 <Zakim> -Jeremy
15:01:51 <Zakim> -Steven
15:01:52 <Zakim> -MarkB
15:01:52 <Zakim> -Ralph
15:01:53 <Zakim> SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)10:00AM has ended
15:01:57 <Zakim> Attendees were Ralph, Steven, Jeremy, CraigN, MarkB
15:02:20 <Steven> but not CraigN
15:02:37 <RalphS> [I thought I'd fixed that bug in Zakim]
15:03:10 <RalphS> rrsagent, please draft minutes
15:03:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/09/20-swbp-minutes.html RalphS
15:03:18 <RalphS> rrsagent, please make this record public
15:03:30 <Zakim> Zakim has left #swbp
15:03:34 <RRSAgent> I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/20-swbp-actions.rdf :
15:03:34 <RRSAgent> ACTION: JJC to review rdf concepts and fragments [1]
15:03:34 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/20-swbp-irc#T14-55-01
15:03:34 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mark to check edge cases of inheritance in RDF/A [2]
15:03:34 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/20-swbp-irc#T14-56-44
15:03:34 <RRSAgent> ACTION: All take a serious look at Mark's [3]bnode proposal summary [3]
15:03:34 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/20-swbp-irc#T14-57-02
15:03:34 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to put together the "ACID" test for XHTML2 RDF/A [4]
15:03:34 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/20-swbp-irc#T14-57-15