13:55:50 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #swbp
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13:56:00 <Ralph> Meeting: SWBPD HTML TF
13:56:06 <Ralph> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Jul/0007.html
13:56:17 <Ralph> Previous Meeting: http://www.w3.org/2005/06/28-swbp-minutes.html
13:56:55 <benadida> benadida has joined #swbp
13:58:58 <Zakim> SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)10:00AM has now started
13:59:05 <Zakim> +Ben_Adida
13:59:15 <Zakim> +Ralph
14:11:27 <MarkB_> MarkB_ has joined #swbp
14:16:56 <Zakim> +??P6
14:16:58 <Ralph> Ben and Ralph talk about microformats while waiting for others
14:17:08 <MarkB_> zakim, i am ?
14:17:08 <Zakim> +MarkB_; got it
14:18:49 <Ralph> Topic: Action Review
14:19:44 <Ralph> Mark: I met again today with IPTC, followup from Friday meeting
14:19:52 <Ralph> ... they're keen to progress further
14:20:07 <Ralph> Topic: IPTC Meeting Notes
14:20:14 <Ralph> Mark: Friday meeting was very positive
14:20:33 <Ralph> ... Misha focussed the discussion on his document first, then we dived into details
14:20:48 <Ralph> ... IPTC wants a small set of relationships between data
14:20:58 <Ralph> ... they want to make statements about the relationships between other tags
14:21:27 <Ralph> ... reification is a big issue for them; they want to give [provenance] -- who assigned a 'tag', with what confidence, etc.
14:21:51 <Ralph> ... they're very open to RDF/A, as long as they get a compact syntax
14:22:02 <Ralph> ... in their proposed syntax there is a lot of level-mixing
14:22:24 <Ralph> ... e.g. attributes whose subject is a statement and other attributes whose subject is something else
14:22:31 <Ralph> ... they admitted this could get confusing to people
14:23:36 <Ralph> ... this can help us, as it's a real meaty application
14:23:45 <Ralph> ... I felt very positive about this
14:24:03 <Ralph> ... they have a tight timescale; their next meeting is in October and they need to publish documents beforehand
14:24:14 <Ralph> ... 3 Oct is their deadline
14:24:26 <Ralph> Ben: how will they do RDF/A without XHTML2?
14:24:32 <Ralph> Mark: they have several languages
14:24:41 <Ralph> ... one is comparable to XHTML2; it marks up a news story
14:24:55 <Ralph> ... they're not completely convinced that XHTML2 gives them everything they need
14:25:15 <Ralph> ... they have a suite of other languages; e.g. SportsML that sit on their base language
14:25:28 <Ralph> ... then they have another layer that provides alternative formats for a document
14:25:44 <Ralph> ... a wrapper describes the 'package' of formats available
14:26:17 <benadida> ... document format to wrap other documents
14:26:28 <benadida> ... another format: many documents that make up a news story
14:26:46 <benadida> ... 3 document formats. XHTML2 might replace the bottom one, but not others.
14:27:07 <benadida> ... RDF/A was designed as general purpose attribute syntax
14:27:43 <benadida> Ben: can RDF/A be added to XHTML1
14:28:00 <benadida> Mark: there's been discussion about this.
14:28:31 <benadida> ... there are ways to mark up DanBri's examples using XHTML1
14:29:38 <benadida> Ben: very interesting to think about this issue. Could it be accomplished with XHTML1 that renders correctly in the browser?
14:30:30 <benadida> Mark: property is not an XHTML1 attribute, but it could be added as a module.
14:31:05 <benadida> Ben: how is XHTML1 modularization going to interact with validators?
14:31:17 <benadida> Mark: there are probably no XHTML 1.1 validators, because there is no schema yet
14:31:40 <benadida> ... XHTML 1.1 will have modularization, in order to replace XHTML 1.0.
14:31:49 <benadida> ... DTDs for XHTML 1.0 will be replaced by XHTML 1.1 schemas
14:32:47 <benadida> ... tried using XHTML 1.1 architecture to combine multiple modules and add XForms. It didn't work.
14:33:12 <benadida> ... Xforms is a bit more complicated of a use case.
14:33:26 <benadida> ... currently tidying up XHTML 1.1 modularization. Later XHTML2 using same techniques.
14:33:31 <benadida> Ben: keep us posted on this
14:34:00 <benadida> ... it might help for adoption
14:34:13 <benadida> Mark: tricky thing is QNAME issue for predicates.
14:34:38 <benadida> ... could argue that there's nothing to stop you using Qnames in REL.
14:34:48 <benadida> ... same as "DC.creator"
14:35:19 <benadida> Ben: what's the current direction on qnames everywhere?
14:35:53 <benadida> Mark: would be great to have qnames and URIs interchangeable. square brackets won't fly either.
14:36:05 <benadida> ... need to add qabout and qhref
14:36:08 <benadida> ... or qcontent
14:36:33 <Ralph> Ben: in terms of consistency, if we add qabout and qhref do we also need qrel?
14:36:41 <Ralph> Mark: yes
14:37:00 <Ralph> ... [even though] it would be painful for every attribute to have a q-version
14:37:56 <Ralph> Ben: if we do settle on the qabout, qhref direction then adding qrel would settle the problem
14:38:11 <Ralph> Mark: and existing rel would be a kind of local identifier
14:38:44 <Ralph> ... could provide a neat answer to the backwards compatibility issue
14:40:59 <Ralph> ... might also be solvable by putting constraints on the namespace prefixes; e.g. insist that the namespace prefixes used within a document not match [known] URI schemes
14:41:33 <Ralph> ... it will become common to sprinkle qnames throughout HTML documents in the future
14:43:27 <Ralph> ... if we do choose the q-attribute route, I prefer 'qcontent' and leave 'href' alone
14:44:22 <Ralph> Ben: any other issues from IPTC discussion?
14:44:37 <Ralph> Mark: we need to settle our view on reification
14:45:03 <Ralph> ... we've revised the interpretation of ID so many times in this design
14:45:12 <Ralph> ... though I quite like the idea that ID refers to the _statement_
14:45:57 <Ralph> ... IPTC does want to be able to say _who_ made a statement, _when_ the statement was made, how confident they are of the statement, etc.
14:46:23 <Ralph> Ben: did custom attributes come up?
14:46:33 <Ralph> Mark: sort-of, but I described it as solved
14:47:27 <Ralph> ... but there is a desire to treat, for example, role= as identifying a property/value pair
14:48:02 <Ralph> ... other things like media-type would benefit from such an approach as well
14:48:21 <Ralph> ... IPTC's requirement is for compactness
14:48:36 <Ralph> ... they don't like 'property=x content=y' on every element
14:49:27 <Ralph> ... They've also defined elements ala 'dc:subject' with attributes
14:49:30 <Ralph> ... very RDF-like
14:49:47 <Ralph> ... they also have the problem of Schema validation
14:52:45 <Ralph> Ben: it would be good to summarize our current thinking on these 3 issues in an email
14:53:19 <Ralph> Mark: we could use DanBri's samples to help this discussion
14:53:52 <Ralph> ... I've already noticed some possible improvements after trying to write DanBri's examples
14:54:15 <Ralph> ... IPTC has also promised some examples, including some very big cases
14:54:26 <Ralph> ... to help us understand the compactness issue
14:55:26 <Ralph> ACTION: Ben create a way to track progress on the 3 issues of qnames, reification, and custom attributes and elements
14:58:13 <Ralph> Ralph: would Misha be interested in formally joining the WG?
14:58:46 <Ralph> Mark: perhaps.  They're certainly willing to attend some TF telecons.
14:59:09 <Ralph> ... but they probably won't want to attend every meeting
15:03:24 <Ralph> Mark: there may be applications that want to do metadata extraction by traversing an infoset via DOM
15:09:58 <Zakim> -MarkB_
15:10:07 <MarkB_> sorry!
15:14:19 <Zakim> -Ralph
15:14:21 <Zakim> -Ben_Adida
15:14:23 <Zakim> SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)10:00AM has ended
15:14:24 <Zakim> Attendees were Ben_Adida, Ralph, MarkB_
15:14:30 <benadida> benadida has left #swbp
15:15:17 <Ralph> [CONTINUES] ACTION: Ben to coordinate with mark for next week's meeting
15:15:35 <Ralph> [DONE] ACTION: Ben to pull in action items from prev meetings
15:15:46 <Ralph> [DONE] ACTION: danbri make examples
15:16:04 <Ralph> [CONTINES] ACTION: danbri record an issue re # vs /
15:16:13 <Ralph> [DONE] ACTION: ericm or danbri circulate results of london f2f meeting at IPTC
15:16:20 <Ralph> [CONTINUES] ACTION: jjc to circulate www conf paper
15:16:29 <Ralph> [CONTINUES] ACTION: Ben to put together the "ACID" test for XHTML2 RDF/A
15:16:36 <Ralph> [CONTINUES] ACTION: Mark to check edge cases of inheritance in RDF/A
15:16:53 <Ralph> [CONTINUES] ACTION: Mark to create an rdf/a wiki
15:17:01 <Ralph> [CONTINUES] ACTION: Steven send wording for 23.2 to mailing list
15:17:14 <Ralph> [CONTINUES] ACTION: Ben to notify working group of upcoming WD of Note
15:18:06 <Ralph> [DONE] ACTION: Ben to send email about GRDDL profile approach to XHTML2 namespace URL document
15:18:38 <Ralph> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Jun/0032.html GRDDL profile for XHTML2 namespace URL document [BenA 2005-06-21]
15:18:57 <Ralph> [CONTINUES] ACTION: take a serious look at Mark's bnode proposal summary http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Jun/0010.html
15:19:29 <Ralph> rrsagent, bye
15:19:29 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item:
15:19:29 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben create a way to track progress on the 3 issues of qnames, reification, and custom attributes and elements [1]
15:19:29 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/12-swbp-irc#T14-55-26
15:19:43 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #swbp
15:19:43 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/07/12-swbp-irc
15:19:50 <Ralph> rrsagent, please make logs world-visible
15:19:57 <Ralph> rrsagent, please draft minutes
15:19:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/07/12-swbp-minutes.html Ralph
15:20:15 <Ralph> rrsagent, bye
15:20:15 <RRSAgent> I see no action items