IRC log of tagmem on 2005-06-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:04:11 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #tagmem
17:04:11 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/28-tagmem-irc
17:04:35 [Ed]
Scribe: Ed
17:04:48 [Ed]
Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2005/06/28-agenda.html
17:05:00 [Ed]
Chair: Vincent
17:05:12 [Ed]
Meeting to order
17:05:20 [Ed]
Topic: Admnistrative topics
17:05:50 [Ed]
Approval of minutes from F2F ?
17:07:09 [DanC]
(found http://www.w3.org/2005/06/15-tagmem-minutes ; marking it not world-readable)
17:07:11 [Ed]
Dan: where working minutes marked draft? or deleted?
17:07:32 [Ed]
Resolved: Cambridge f2f edited version have been approved
17:07:48 [Ed]
Approval of last teleconferance?
17:08:13 [Ed]
Dan: they say draft
17:08:24 [DanC]
(also set http://www.w3.org/2005/06/16-tagmem-minutes.html,access to member-only)
17:08:36 [Ed]
Ed would rather that they didnt say draft..
17:08:52 [Ed]
Vincent: its difficult to change because they're in the archives
17:08:57 [Ed]
Ed, I think its ok.
17:09:13 [Ed]
Dad: If your going to mail them out, please dont say 'draft'.
17:09:23 [DanC]
s/Dad:/Dan:/
17:09:27 [Ed]
Resolved: last teleconferance minutes accepted.
17:09:38 [Ed]
:)
17:09:57 [DanC]
note 4 July holiday in the U.S.
17:09:59 [Ed]
Topic. Next teleconferance
17:10:06 [Ed]
regrets from Roy, Noah
17:10:29 [Ed]
Scribe for next week: Dave
17:11:15 [Ed]
Topic: Agenda for today
17:11:40 [noah]
Please note that Noah has sent regrets for both July 5 and July 12. I expect to be back on the 19th (by which time it may well be my turn to scribe.)
17:11:44 [Ed]
Vincent: we may change the discussion around schemeProtocols-49 some, based on email.
17:11:54 [Ed]
no other additions/changes noted.
17:12:32 [Ed]
Vincent: Paul Cotton noted that we did not publish a Qtrly report since last march
17:13:31 [Ed]
Action: Vincent to write something based on what was presented at the AC meeting earlier this month and will circulate to the mailing list. After comments he will publish this.
17:13:46 [Zakim]
+TimBL
17:15:32 [Vincent]
ack danc
17:15:32 [Zakim]
DanC, you wanted to wonder if I'm supposed to take care of tag-announce
17:15:38 [Ed]
Dan: Tag-Announce; has anyone been sending anything to this?
17:16:13 [Ed]
Vincent: this is something we should do. We should post to this mailing list for any significant announcments etc.
17:16:46 [DanC]
"TAG of minutes, meeting summaries, findings, new issues, resolved issues, and drafts of architecture documents"
17:17:16 [Ed]
Dan noted that we are missing minutes and http-range 14 to this list.
17:18:04 [Ed]
Topic: Invitations
17:18:20 [Ed]
more information on new subjects; Grid and web apps.
17:18:32 [Ed]
Noah proposed name from IBM
17:18:37 [Ed]
Ed proposed name from HP
17:19:15 [Ed]
Vincent; We have two canidates, both seem interesting. Should we invite them both?
17:19:26 [Ed]
and when should we do this?
17:19:52 [timbl]
timbl has joined #tagmem
17:19:56 [Ed]
Ed thinks both would be good
17:20:06 [Ed]
Dan thinks web apps charter may be more urgent
17:20:34 [DanC]
"Proposal: we will have calls through 19th of July, then take a break with next call being 23rd of August."
17:20:38 [DanC]
-- http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2005/06/14-16-minutes.html#item07
17:21:58 [Ed]
Noah: we would give some guidence around what we're looking for
17:22:38 [Ed]
Noah: what is grid, there appears to be some confusion (as an example)
17:22:58 [Ed]
Vincent: I'm not sure we're asking them anything formal.
17:23:31 [Ed]
Noah: Propose grid on the 19th, if possible
17:23:42 [Ed]
Noah: lets us do web-apps sooner
17:24:36 [Ed]
Vincent will contact both parties and try and make arrangements
17:25:11 [Ed]
Action: Vincent to organize the experts on the grid, if possible both on the 19th of July
17:25:48 [Ed]
Vincent: We'll do web applications next week
17:26:11 [Ed]
Dan: the charter is available is our goal to review the charter? Should we be part of the membership review or..?
17:28:13 [Ed]
Timbl: it would be good to have the TAG internalize the architecture for web applications and discuss them.
17:29:59 [Ed]
Vincent: the discussion was not just about the charter, but also about longer term architectural implications
17:30:57 [noah]
q+ to mention precedent of binary charter
17:31:42 [DanC]
> I see it was announced 23 May to the AC
17:31:42 [DanC]
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ac-members/2005AprJun/
17:31:42 [DanC]
> 0041.html
17:31:42 [DanC]
> --> http://www.w3.org/2004/07/webapps/webapps
17:36:22 [noah]
q-
17:36:50 [DanC]
(I don't want to charter a W3C WG to do much design in the webapps space. I think the best bang-for-the-buck is QA. testing and refinement of existing designs)
17:37:53 [Zakim]
-Roy
17:39:09 [Ed]
Vincent: while hearing the charter discussion, I'm less and less convinced its not a good time to discuss the charter iteself.
17:39:24 [Zakim]
+Roy
17:39:45 [Ed]
timble: We're in the phase of infromally discussing thats all.
17:40:40 [noah]
q+ to say that having open app models for the web is important
17:40:55 [Vincent]
ack noah
17:40:55 [Zakim]
noah, you wanted to say that having open app models for the web is important
17:41:37 [Ed]
Noah: I see some items in the charter which give me some pause. On the other hand, expectations for what applications do are evolving and I think its critically important that we find that there were open architectures deployed.
17:42:24 [Ed]
Noah: I think its important if this charter is close enough to the mark to make that happen.
17:42:48 [Ed]
Vincent: The plan was not to have an in-depth discussion today, just to get organized to have the discussion in the future.
17:43:05 [timbl]
Questions which seem open: Should the interface be language specific to be more powerful and usable? If this is going to be ECMAscript why not say so? If not then say that. Or aim to have shared library between JS and Java?
17:43:53 [Ed]
Vincent: We'll try and have the discusion next week.
17:44:05 [noah]
Noah also noted at least one more detailed concern: the draft charter seems to mandate a solution to client side storage. That seems like a deeply complex area. I have no problems with a group taking a look at it, but I'm concerned that we're committing to a deliverable before we know what if anything meets a practical need.
17:44:20 [Ed]
Action: Vincent to invite Dan for the 5th of July to discuss web services
17:44:29 [DanC]
s/invite Dan/invite Dean/
17:44:50 [noah]
s/web services/web applications/
17:44:51 [timbl]
Dean Jackson
17:45:07 [noah]
Roy mentioned that security is important and is missing from the charter.
17:45:11 [Ed]
Topic: Names, namespaces and languages
17:45:16 [noah]
+1 from Noah to Roy's concern on security.
17:45:30 [Ed]
Henry to present work.
17:46:39 [Ed]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2005Jun/att-0059/names.html
17:47:02 [Ed]
Henry: There are two candiate best practice notes at the bottom
17:47:41 [Ed]
1) As a language evolves, use new expanded names for new things, don't recycle old ones
17:48:08 [Ed]
2) Don't use the same expanded name for two different things of the same sort in different languages under your control
17:48:33 [DanC]
q+ to note "The continued widespread use of languages such as Docbook which don't use namespaces shouldn't be ignored." vs " A specification that establishes an XML vocabulary SHOULD place all element names and global attribute names in a namespace."
17:48:51 [DanC]
(hmm... maybe better to finish this discussion thread 1st...)
17:48:55 [DanC]
q-
17:49:20 [noah]
q+ to suggest that maybe we need a broader definition of namespace
17:49:37 [DanC]
q+ to respond to the new/old thing...
17:49:47 [Ed]
concern around versioning and calling 'new things' new as opposed to a new version of the same thing.
17:50:02 [Vincent]
ack danc
17:50:02 [Zakim]
DanC, you wanted to respond to the new/old thing...
17:50:19 [timbl]
Zakim, who is here?
17:50:19 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Ed, Ht, Vincent, noah, DanC, DOrchard, TimBL, Roy
17:50:20 [Zakim]
On IRC I see timbl, RRSAgent, Roy, Vincent, Ed, Zakim, ht, DanC, noah
17:50:30 [Vincent]
q?
17:50:54 [Vincent]
ack noah
17:50:54 [Zakim]
noah, you wanted to suggest that maybe we need a broader definition of namespace
17:51:44 [Ed]
Noah: when you access a status code 200, that had better be an information resource.
17:52:13 [Ed]
Noah: Namespaces are borderline, we havent really said what they are. Norm said we should come down on the side of an information resource.
17:52:28 [timbl]
q+ to suggest that a namespace is a set of URIs which share a comon prefix, and a namespace document is the document which is identified by that URI
17:52:33 [noah]
"A namespace is a set of terms and associated information, all qualified by the same URI. In the case of XML Instance documents, namespaces consist of the constructs specified in "Namespaces for XML", along with supporting information such as schemas, stylesheets, etc. In the case of XML Schema, a so-called "Target Namespace" consists of named type definitions, element declarations, attribute declarations, and so on."
17:52:46 [Ed]
Noah: proposed text.
17:52:51 [DanC]
(I don't see the issue... in what way might a namespace *not* be an information resource?)
17:52:54 [ht]
q+ to disagree strongly
17:54:19 [Ed]
q?
17:54:32 [Vincent]
ack timbl
17:54:32 [Zakim]
timbl, you wanted to suggest that a namespace is a set of URIs which share a comon prefix, and a namespace document is the document which is identified by that URI
17:54:40 [DanC]
(and why does "namespace" need a definition any more constrained than "information resource?")
17:55:18 [Ed]
timbl: we're getting a little tangled in this. You can talk about an html name space just being a set of names
17:55:35 [Ed]
timble: A namespace document is a document if you want a list of that.
17:58:04 [ht]
Information about ways of using the namespace
17:58:44 [ht]
== Information about using qualified names of the form < [the namespace URI], some local name>
17:58:45 [Vincent]
ack ht
17:58:45 [Zakim]
ht, you wanted to disagree strongly
17:59:53 [Ed]
Henry: The specific question that the document i wrote came back with a specific negative. The namespace URI just allows you to have a list of expanded names.
18:00:04 [noah]
Noah and Tim went back and forth: I think the net is that Tim is suggesting that the namespace URI actually identifies the namespace document or information resource. Noah is happy with that. Noah would have been concerned if the URI identified both the list of names as a resource and the namespace document as a resource.
18:00:09 [Ed]
Henry: We need not to talk so much about namespace documents but aound language documents
18:01:45 [Vincent]
ack DO
18:01:45 [ht]
yes
18:02:12 [ht]
yes to XHTML anyway -- RDF, like XML itself, is tricky because it's so meta
18:02:13 [Ed]
Dave: We need to think about the relationship of fragment identifiers and namespace documents
18:02:25 [Vincent]
q+ TimBL
18:02:40 [noah]
Noah is mainly pushing that we have a clean answer to the question: what is the information resource identified by the namespace URI, and why can we justify status code 200 returning RDDL with things like stylesheet references. Tim's proposal seemed to point a good direction for that.
18:02:50 [timbl]
q+ to say that if Henry wanst to break apart the allocation of names in anames apec and teh allocation of them to things they denote in different circumstances, then that violates the principle that a URI identifies one thing hlobally.
18:03:11 [Vincent]
ack TimBL
18:03:14 [Zakim]
TimBL, you wanted to say that if Henry wanst to break apart the allocation of names in anames apec and teh allocation of them to things they denote in different circumstances, then
18:03:18 [Zakim]
... that violates the principle that a URI identifies one thing hlobally.
18:03:23 [timbl]
q+ to say that if Henry wanst to break apart the allocation of names in anames apec and teh allocation of them to things they denote in different circumstances, then that violates the principle that a URI identifies one thing hlobally.
18:04:03 [timbl]
DO: http;//whatever/sdhfghjasdfgjgf#interfaceFfoo
18:04:38 [timbl]
What happens if there is RDDL document there, whioch doesn't tell me what interfaceFoo is?
18:04:51 [DanC]
"nothing in the doc says what interfaceFfoo is"? well, by reference, it seems to.
18:05:06 [Vincent]
ack timbl
18:05:06 [Zakim]
timbl, you wanted to say that if Henry wanst to break apart the allocation of names in anames apec and teh allocation of them to things they denote in different circumstances, then
18:05:09 [Zakim]
... that violates the principle that a URI identifies one thing hlobally.
18:06:38 [timbl]
Seems that David is concerned that one won't know how to get from eth RDDL document to the other document which one actually needs.
18:08:18 [DanC]
"WSDL has to give a property for use in RDDL befor they're done". well, in a way, I suppose. But XML Schema did the RDDL stuff after-the-fact
18:10:50 [DanC]
(the possibility was always there; namespace documents don't introduce it)
18:11:13 [DanC]
(the possibility being: that meaning of a doc might include another by ref)
18:11:43 [noah]
Dave. From: http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/#frag-coneg "representation providers must not use content negotiation to serve representation formats that have inconsistent fragment identifier semantics. " Doesn't that cover your concern about WSDL and RDDL?
18:12:02 [Ed]
Henry: I meant that simply that its possible to mint a namespace and that there is an infenant set of names in that name space.
18:12:23 [Ed]
Henry: one of the reasons we like http: URI's is because we know who's job it is to answer that
18:12:56 [noah]
...and then Noah notices that Dave isn't on IRC
18:13:34 [Vincent]
ack DanC
18:13:34 [Zakim]
DanC, you wanted to note that by the "minimalist" reading, "z" is in every namespace, e.g. <http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml> and by another notion (that perhaps merits a new name) "z"
18:13:38 [Zakim]
... has a different status than "p"
18:13:51 [Ed]
Dan: for purpose of discussion, I need another name for namespace
18:14:09 [ht]
Indeed, that's what I was just saying to Timbl
18:14:33 [ht]
HTML tells us that P is the name of something in that language
18:14:54 [ht]
Yeah, I was going to use 'application'. . .
18:15:19 [noah]
q?
18:15:38 [noah]
q+ to suggest that Tim's distinction between namespace doc and namespace may point to a solution to Henry's concern
18:16:22 [Ed]
HT: I agree that you think the web is simple enough that the document element is good enough to tell you what you want.
18:16:39 [DanC]
GRDDL, for example, doesn't define a document element.
18:17:15 [DanC]
XSLT literals results do *exactly* what timbl says shouldn't happen.
18:17:28 [Ed]
timbl: if its in a given name space and you use any other name, then I feel the self describing nature breaks down if in anyplace in the doc itself it changes what type of document it is.
18:18:23 [timbl]
XSLT literals do exactly what I say should happen iff you adot the XML fucntions architecture.
18:18:28 [Vincent]
ack DO
18:19:00 [timbl]
(In other words, XHTML says functions are allowed, and XSTLT namespace defines what happens when yo umeet some of it in a foreign language)
18:20:16 [DanC]
the XSLT spec says that you can start an XSLT transformation with <xhtml:html>
18:20:47 [ht]
the XSLT spec says you can start a transformation with _any_ XML element
18:21:09 [DanC]
http://www.w3.org/TR/xslt#literal-result-element
18:22:47 [DanC]
(yes, DO's issue is one that has come up a number of times; is it in the current draft of whatever we've got on namespaceDocument-8? if not, anybody want to take the ball?)
18:22:50 [Vincent]
ack noah
18:22:50 [Zakim]
noah, you wanted to suggest that Tim's distinction between namespace doc and namespace may point to a solution to Henry's concern
18:22:58 [ht]
barenames are fine if there's only one sort of thing in your language/application/whatever
18:24:55 [ht]
And that's the case for RDF
18:25:06 [ht]
It's not OK for XML or Schema or WSDL
18:26:01 [DanC]
noah, welcome to the xml-names thread from 1999, all about whether namespace names are actually pointers at all
18:26:51 [ht]
This is a use/mention confusion, but I agree it needs to be clarified carefully
18:27:30 [Ed]
Henry: I'll update my document, if it fits into a finding thats great.
18:27:47 [DanC]
yup. this is the key to extensibility too.
18:27:50 [Ed]
Dave: This has been very useful.
18:27:58 [Ed]
Vincent: lets move on
18:28:08 [Ed]
TOPIC: shemeProtocols-49
18:28:19 [Ed]
Noah sent a message right before the call.
18:28:36 [ht]
When I write <xs:element ..../>, I'm _not_ using http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema">http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema in anything _like_ the same way I'm using it when I write <xhtml:a href="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema">...</xhtml:a>
18:29:01 [DanC]
ah... not xml-names thread, but xml-uri http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xml-uri/
18:29:26 [ht]
DanC, thanks for good memory and good pointers!
18:29:46 [Ed]
Noah, I'm working on refining the findings. Please provide feedback asap as i'm occupied for the next two weeks
18:30:02 [Ed]
TOPIC: namespaceDocument-8
18:30:10 [Ed]
Vincent: We'll return to this when Norm returns
18:30:23 [Ed]
Topic: Review action items;
18:30:46 [Ed]
Vincent: everyone to review from agenda.
18:30:47 [Zakim]
-DOrchard
18:30:51 [Ed]
Close meeting
18:30:52 [Zakim]
-Vincent
18:30:54 [Zakim]
-Roy
18:30:55 [Zakim]
-TimBL
18:30:56 [Zakim]
-noah
18:30:56 [Zakim]
-Ed
18:30:58 [Zakim]
-DanC
18:31:14 [Ed]
Zakim, list participants
18:31:14 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Ht, +1.949.760.aaaa, Ed, Vincent, noah, DanC, Roy, DOrchard, TimBL
18:31:15 [noah]
When Henry wrote above: "When I write <xs:element .../> I'm not" that was exactly the point I was making on the call. I'm trying to rationalize the use of the same URI for both.
18:31:16 [Zakim]
-Ht
18:31:19 [Zakim]
TAG_Weekly()12:30PM has ended
18:31:21 [Zakim]
Attendees were Ht, +1.949.760.aaaa, Ed, Vincent, noah, DanC, Roy, DOrchard, TimBL
18:31:28 [noah]
Tim sez the URI identifies a description document for the NS.
18:31:36 [Ed]
RRSAgent, gnerate minutes
18:31:36 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'gnerate minutes', Ed. Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:31:49 [Ed]
RRSAgent, generate minutes
18:31:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/06/28-tagmem-minutes.html Ed
18:32:34 [ht]
Sure, that's what the URI 'identifies', in the abstract. And that identification is foregrounded in the href=... usage.
18:32:35 [Ed]
rrsagent, set logs world-visible
18:33:05 [Ed]
Zakim, bye
18:33:05 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #tagmem
18:33:05 [ht]
But it's _not_ what's foregrounded, or even in play at all, when you write <xs:element...> with an appropriate namespace binding in play
18:33:23 [Ed]
RRSAgent, bye
18:33:23 [RRSAgent]
I see 3 open action items:
18:33:23 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Vincent to write something based on what was presented at the AC meeting earlier this month and will circulate to the mailing list. After comments he will publish this. [1]
18:33:23 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/28-tagmem-irc#T17-13-31
18:33:23 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Vincent to organize the experts on the grid, if possible both on the 19th of July [2]
18:33:23 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/28-tagmem-irc#T17-25-11
18:33:23 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Vincent to invite Dan for the 5th of July to discuss web services [3]
18:33:23 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/28-tagmem-irc#T17-44-20