IRC log of swbp on 2005-06-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:59:15 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #swbp
13:59:15 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:00:13 [benadida]
benadida has joined #swbp
14:00:33 [em]
agenda+ admin
14:00:43 [em]
agenda+ liasion
14:01:14 [em]
agenda2=liaison (TAG, XML Schema, OMG)
14:01:19 [em]
agenda+ TF update
14:01:31 [Zakim]
SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)10:00AM has now started
14:01:32 [Zakim]
14:01:37 [Zakim]
14:01:38 [MarkB_]
zakim, i am ?
14:01:39 [Zakim]
+MarkB_; got it
14:01:42 [Zakim]
14:01:45 [Zakim]
14:01:47 [Zakim]
14:01:49 [danbri]
danbri has changed the topic to: SWBP+HTML RDF-in-XHTML TF telecon agenda:
14:02:08 [em]
zakim, dial emiller-bos
14:02:08 [Zakim]
ok, em; the call is being made
14:02:10 [Zakim]
14:02:23 [em]
zakim, who is here?
14:02:23 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Ben_Adida, MarkB_, Danbri, Emiller
14:02:24 [Zakim]
On IRC I see benadida, RRSAgent, Zakim, danbri, em, MarkB_, Ralph
14:03:36 [danbri]
zakim, agenda?
14:03:36 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
14:03:37 [Zakim]
1. admin [from em]
14:03:39 [Zakim]
2. liaison (TAG, XML Schema, OMG)
14:03:40 [Zakim]
3. TF update [from em]
14:04:05 [danbri]
zakim, remove agendum 3
14:04:05 [Zakim]
agendum 3, TF update, dropped
14:04:07 [danbri]
zakim, remove agendum 2
14:04:07 [Zakim]
agendum 2, liaison (TAG, XML Schema, OMG), dropped
14:04:49 [danbri_scribe]
agenda+ IPTC
14:04:54 [danbri_scribe]
zakim, agenda?
14:04:54 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
14:04:55 [Zakim]
1. admin [from em]
14:04:57 [Zakim]
4. IPTC [from danbri_scribe]
14:05:03 [danbri_scribe]
agenda+ danbri's rdfs
14:05:19 [danbri_scribe]
agenda+ Inheritance rules details in latest HTML WD
14:05:27 [danbri_scribe]
agenda+ XHTML2 RDF/A ACID test
14:05:49 [danbri_scribe]
zakim, agenda?
14:05:49 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
14:05:51 [Zakim]
1. admin [from em]
14:05:53 [Zakim]
4. IPTC [from danbri_scribe]
14:05:55 [Zakim]
5. danbri's rdfs [from danbri_scribe]
14:05:59 [Zakim]
6. Inheritance rules details in latest HTML WD [from danbri_scribe]
14:06:01 [Zakim]
7. XHTML2 RDF/A ACID test [from danbri_scribe]
14:06:10 [Zakim]
14:06:12 [danbri_scribe]
q+ can we fix the agenda
14:06:37 [danbri_scribe]
q+ to ask if we can we fix the agenda
14:06:46 [danbri_scribe]
em: GRDDL status?
14:06:53 [danbri_scribe]
ben: dormant in TF currently
14:07:00 [danbri_scribe]
zakim, ??P15 is jjc
14:07:00 [Zakim]
+jjc; got it
14:07:08 [danbri_scribe]
zakim, agenda?
14:07:08 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
14:07:09 [Zakim]
1. admin [from em]
14:07:10 [Zakim]
4. IPTC [from danbri_scribe]
14:07:12 [Zakim]
5. danbri's rdfs [from danbri_scribe]
14:07:13 [Zakim]
6. Inheritance rules details in latest HTML WD [from danbri_scribe]
14:07:15 [Zakim]
7. XHTML2 RDF/A ACID test [from danbri_scribe]
14:08:12 [danbri_scribe]
zakim, take up agendum 1
14:08:12 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "admin" taken up [from em]
14:08:17 [danbri_scribe]
zakim, take up agendum 4
14:08:17 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "IPTC" taken up [from danbri_scribe]
14:08:38 [danbri_scribe]
IPTC upcoming discussion(s)
14:09:09 [danbri_scribe]
...meeting under discussion for July (London), re potential adoption of RDF/A and XHTML2 by IPTC
14:09:50 [danbri_scribe]
em: re IPTC... july 8 meeting in london
14:09:54 [danbri_scribe]
14:10:29 [danbri_scribe]
...em, danbri, misha, laurant(sp.?), possibly markB
14:10:58 [danbri_scribe]
em: ...morning of 8th
14:11:09 [danbri_scribe]
jjc: i could probably attend quite easily
14:11:15 [danbri_scribe]
em: yes pls :)
14:11:59 [danbri_scribe]
...biggest issues i see, some modeling Qs that need sorting out. Various IPTC-related discussions across SWIG and DC lists, hard to get a clear sense of requirements
14:12:19 [danbri_scribe]
q+ to note that abbreviated URIs for subjects and objects of rdf statements seems to be a req
14:12:46 [danbri_scribe]
ben: i agree. discussed possibility w/ danc of having a telecon pre-meeting to scope and make better use of f2f time
14:13:39 [danbri_scribe]
em: there are some good summaries around (esp mark's). being around a whiteboard will be a big help.
14:14:05 [danbri_scribe]
q+ to ask ericm whether we should consider this a meeting of the TF/WG, or just a related meeting?
14:14:15 [danbri_scribe]
em: its v important to identify 'customers' for our tech
14:14:21 [danbri_scribe]
...thats my interest in seeing this work happen
14:14:36 [danbri_scribe] extent that we can have 2 or 3 of them satisfied by the same underlying tech, those are helpful
14:14:58 [danbri_scribe]
...but also helps us make a case for wider deployment (in toolkits, browsers, etc)
14:15:25 [danbri_scribe]
danbri: seems v healthy to me
14:15:50 [danbri_scribe]
mark: i've been involved w/ both orgs, and would even say that if we don't get this kind of adoption, sw won't happen
14:16:28 [danbri_scribe]
...i was also in Dublin for w3c mobile meeting
14:16:32 [danbri_scribe]
...presented the xhtml2 story
14:17:00 [danbri_scribe]
...enthusiasm for the metadata aspect makes you think that if we could get mobile world + newsvendors, both using xhtml2, some major possibilities
14:17:27 [danbri_scribe]
q+ to ask jjc re status of xslt/grddl for rdf/a
14:17:48 [benadida]
zakim, mute danbri_scribe
14:17:48 [Zakim]
sorry, benadida, I do not see a party named 'danbri_scribe'
14:17:49 [danbri_scribe]
em: working with them to acid test this stuff... and help use them as examples, indicators for others to follow
14:17:58 [danbri_scribe]
sorry for noise
14:18:32 [danbri_scribe]
ben: completely agree. cusomers are a big deal
14:18:47 [danbri_scribe]
...we want this to be real, ...
14:19:11 [danbri_scribe]
ack danbri
14:19:11 [Zakim]
danbri_scribe, you wanted to ask if we can we fix the agenda and to note that abbreviated URIs for subjects and objects of rdf statements seems to be a req and to ask ericm whether
14:19:14 [Zakim]
... we should consider this a meeting of the TF/WG, or just a related meeting? and to ask jjc re status of xslt/grddl for rdf/a
14:20:24 [danbri_scribe]
danbri: allowing qnames instead of uris would be a big win
14:20:31 [danbri_scribe]
ben: we talked about that last week
14:20:44 [danbri_scribe]
danbri: i saw something (but didn't read detail yet)
14:22:52 [danbri_scribe]
q+ to suggest mark and ben collab on agenda prep for next time
14:23:08 [em]
14:24:31 [danbri_scribe]
ack danbri
14:24:31 [Zakim]
danbri_scribe, you wanted to suggest mark and ben collab on agenda prep for next time
14:24:45 [danbri_scribe]
jjc: is there an active HP rep on the HTML WG? and active?
14:24:55 [danbri_scribe]
mark: melinda(sp?) involved w/ print stuff
14:25:21 [danbri_scribe]
jjc: I could investigate the HP/HTML WG connection... get our RDF interest represented
14:26:15 [danbri_scribe]
em: ...if we could get not just us from the RDF camp to talk about qnames, human readability etc., but from early adopters (eg., mobile web, news, ...)
14:26:40 [danbri_scribe]
...draw attention to issues from outside the rdf 'camp'
14:27:16 [danbri_scribe]
q+ to ask if we should consider this a meeting of the TF/WG, or just a related meeting?
14:27:37 [danbri_scribe]
agenda+ AOB request: ask jjc re status of xslt/grddl for rdf/a
14:27:52 [danbri_scribe]
mark: generally those on the wg have the interests of HTML authors at heart
14:28:14 [danbri_scribe]
...there are other communities beyond the HTML author (news, mobile, ...); good to have backup of use cases from these wider groups
14:28:22 [danbri_scribe]
em: we have to focus on 'uses' as well as 'user'
14:29:10 [em]
14:29:10 [benadida]
ack em
14:29:15 [danbri_scribe]
ack danbri
14:29:15 [Zakim]
danbri_scribe, you wanted to ask if we should consider this a meeting of the TF/WG, or just a related meeting?
14:30:19 [danbri_scribe]
ben: we could...
14:30:51 [danbri_scribe]
danbri: ah, i remember now, w3c requires advance notice of the meeting
14:30:52 [danbri_scribe]
ben: ok
14:31:04 [danbri_scribe]
...please do circulate some results/outcomes of meeting
14:31:09 [danbri_scribe]
jjc: are iptc hosting?
14:31:42 [danbri_scribe]
em: Misha/Reuters are hosting, or arranging hosting
14:31:45 [danbri_scribe]
(fleet street?)
14:32:27 [danbri_scribe]
action: ericm or danbri circulate results of london f2f meeting at IPTC (assuming it happens)
14:32:35 [danbri_scribe]
ben: 2 main issues?
14:32:58 [danbri_scribe]
mark: iptc need to decide whether to use xhtml2 or their own language
14:33:15 [danbri_scribe]
(I missed the sketch of the 2 issues; scribe-help welcomed)
14:33:53 [benadida]
2 issues: (1) qnames in subjects and objects (2) attributes defaulting to RDF properties
14:33:57 [danbri_scribe]
jjc: presume we wouldn't consider it a failure if they had their own language, so long as was transformable with XSLT into XHTML2/RDFA
14:34:24 [danbri_scribe]
em: not sure i'd consider it a failure, but its not the target i'd hope for
14:34:29 [danbri_scribe]
...a fallback position
14:34:37 [danbri_scribe]
...might be reality of non-tech situation, re migration path etc
14:34:55 [danbri_scribe]
... but i hope to be able to bypass that middle step
14:35:04 [danbri_scribe]
jjc: personally i wouldn't be committed to that approach
14:35:22 [danbri_scribe]
...maybe best way to use is directly, or indirectly, ...
14:35:35 [danbri_scribe]
em: easier to make assumptions explicit in f2f setting
14:35:42 [danbri_scribe]
...treat them as an xhtml2 metadata customer
14:35:59 [danbri_scribe] them model data in a highly flexibile way
14:36:17 [danbri_scribe]
14:37:07 [danbri_scribe]
em: stumbling blocks i see are qname one, and modelling (ie. understanding their goals)
14:38:17 [em]
14:38:17 [em]
testing 1,2,3
14:38:28 [benadida]
ping em
14:39:52 [danbri_scribe]
ben: good to contrib to the mail threads before meeting
14:41:25 [danbri_scribe]
ben: so meeting is a week fri, pls try to contrib mails before then
14:41:42 [Zakim]
14:41:55 [danbri_scribe]
ben: good stuff
14:42:14 [danbri_scribe]
...some rels like next, prev, defining the rdfs
14:42:45 [danbri_scribe]
14:42:49 [danbri_scribe]
[HTML] Draft RDF/XML description of XHTML 2.0 link types
14:43:55 [danbri_scribe]
14:46:20 [danbri_scribe]
danbri: definition of 'Document' ok?
14:46:29 [danbri_scribe]
...shall i ref to TAG InformationResource
14:47:22 [danbri_scribe]
mark: they're nto always retrieivable, so emphasising they're abstract
14:47:45 [danbri_scribe]
danbri: propose using TAG InformationResource
14:47:47 [danbri_scribe]
mark: 2nd'ed
14:47:57 [danbri_scribe]
no objections heard
14:48:20 [danbri_scribe]
resolved: class Document definition should refer somehow TAG InformationResource
14:49:30 [danbri_scribe]
ben: copyright is 1 thing needing discussion
14:49:31 [danbri_scribe]
14:49:32 [danbri_scribe]
<rdf:Property rdf:about="#copyright">
14:49:32 [danbri_scribe]
14:49:32 [danbri_scribe]
<rdfs:comment>Refers to a copyright statement for the document.</rdfs:comment>
14:49:32 [danbri_scribe]
<rdfs:range rdf:resource="#Document"/>
14:49:33 [danbri_scribe]
<rdfs:domain rdf:resource="#Document"/>
14:49:37 [danbri_scribe]
<rdf:type rdf:resource=""/>
14:49:39 [danbri_scribe]
<!-- aside: see extensive debate on Atom list re a similar construct; also
14:49:43 [danbri_scribe]
dc:rights, and Creative Commons. Scope for sub-property mappings here? -->
14:49:45 [danbri_scribe]
14:49:47 [danbri_scribe]
14:49:49 [danbri_scribe]
...trying thing thru changes
14:50:05 [danbri_scribe]
...copyright, also add 'license'?
14:50:15 [danbri_scribe] much stuff to add into this core vocab?
14:50:30 [danbri_scribe]
mark: things like cc:license... discussion of whether it goes in the cc ns
14:50:37 [danbri_scribe]
ben: we wantto move away from that
14:50:56 [danbri_scribe]
mark: if you remove the "cc:" prefix, you'd need a new property
14:50:57 [danbri_scribe]
14:51:35 [danbri_scribe]
jjc: although presumably this xhtml2:copyright is similar to
14:51:51 [danbri_scribe]
danbri/ben: dc:rights, dcterms:license are the closest dc terms
14:52:03 [danbri_scribe]
ben: re html, arg is that the 2 should be distinct
14:52:22 [danbri_scribe]
...then q of whether to subPropertyOf
14:52:38 [danbri_scribe]
jjc: my point is that a group like Dublin Core spend more time than the html wg on this sort of thing
14:52:52 [danbri_scribe] much as we can suggest legacy migration
14:53:04 [danbri_scribe]
mark: could dan add equivalence statements?
14:53:11 [danbri_scribe]
jjc: yes, they'd be legacy migration statements
14:53:23 [danbri_scribe]
...they'd need endorsement by the html wg
14:55:02 [danbri_scribe]
danbri: not our job. html guys get to decide how much to clutter their ns.
14:55:14 [danbri_scribe]
...but they seem to have gone down the modularity, external extensions route
14:55:25 [danbri_scribe]
ben: ... additioanl terms are up to the html wg
14:55:37 [danbri_scribe]
ben: lets do the following
14:56:03 [danbri_scribe]
...dan, this is great, we need to move to a WG Note, and start formatting this in that format right now
14:56:12 [danbri_scribe]
...i'll notify the wg that we're working on this
14:57:06 [danbri_scribe]
danbri: i'll write an XHTML doc to go with this RDF/XML
14:57:20 [danbri_scribe]
mark: you've used # but the HTML WG's ns ends in / currently
14:57:39 [danbri_scribe]
action: danbri record an issue re # vs /
14:58:15 [danbri_scribe]
jjc: lets take this to SWBPD WG
14:58:42 [danbri_scribe]
mark: there's all the role values that need to go in here (header, footer, main content...)
14:59:06 [danbri_scribe]
14:59:06 [danbri_scribe]
14:59:06 [danbri_scribe]
Excerpted text:
14:59:06 [danbri_scribe]
"The title attribute may be used, for example, to label the bookmark.
14:59:06 [danbri_scribe]
Note that several bookmarks may be defined for a document." ... what does this
14:59:07 [danbri_scribe]
mean in an RDF context?
14:59:13 [danbri_scribe]
15:00:04 [danbri_scribe]
mark: sugar for rel=role href=...
15:00:21 [danbri_scribe]
ben: jjc how much time do you have for help w/ tests?
15:00:29 [danbri_scribe]
...incl xslt
15:00:37 [danbri_scribe]
jjc: doesn't sound too hard
15:00:48 [danbri_scribe]
...what's timescale that you want it done by?
15:00:56 [danbri_scribe]
mark: can i chip in?
15:01:03 [danbri_scribe]
...item re looking at hierachy
15:01:05 [danbri_scribe]
...didn't do it
15:01:11 [danbri_scribe]
...we have an action to do it...
15:01:21 [danbri_scribe]
...can we work together on it?
15:01:34 [danbri_scribe]
...looking for a good rdf example
15:02:03 [danbri_scribe]
...something everyone'll accept is a good test
15:02:13 [danbri_scribe]
15:02:33 [danbri_scribe]
jjc: my presentation at webconf on this TF
15:02:38 [danbri_scribe]
...had 4 examples in html and rdf
15:02:50 [danbri_scribe]
...tried to motivate the tf
15:03:28 [danbri_scribe]
action: jjc to circulate www conf paper
15:03:45 [danbri_scribe]
ben, mark you want to base inheritance rules on this? test them?
15:04:03 [danbri_scribe]
mark: testing. everytime you accom a usecase you risk losing another
15:04:14 [danbri_scribe]
...we have some stuff for anon nodes
15:05:33 [danbri_scribe]
danbri: propose division of labour. jjc focus on the xslt. danbri on examples.
15:05:47 [danbri_scribe]
mark: a set of examples, eg a foaf file, rss feed, 2 or 3 docs, ... would be ideal
15:05:53 [danbri_scribe]
action: danbri make examples
15:06:23 [danbri_scribe]
ben: do we have the inheritance rules written down yet
15:06:49 [danbri_scribe]
mark: i think jjc had the most substantive review comments on the rules, lets get some motivating examples first, to avoid wasting xslt hacking time if rules chang
15:06:50 [danbri_scribe]
15:07:10 [danbri_scribe]
jjc: the rules in the latest WD are simple, only 2 in (1) and (2) in metadata attribs module
15:07:26 [danbri_scribe]
...not inheritance rules as such
15:07:43 [danbri_scribe]
mark: notthing more written down yet, but more to come
15:07:56 [danbri_scribe]
...we agreed rdf/a separate doc needs to be brough t into line w/ current thinking
15:08:14 [danbri_scribe]
...make sure we happy with that
15:08:23 [danbri_scribe]
...we've lost some things, eg statements all about a common object
15:08:26 [danbri_scribe]
er subject
15:08:59 [danbri_scribe]
mark: only ambiguity i have left, in terms of inheritance, or rather 'chaining', ...object of first is subject of next
15:09:03 [danbri_scribe]
then we changed to another method
15:09:14 [danbri_scribe]
now different again, can do along subject or object(?)
15:09:34 [danbri_scribe]
can't have both, need to pick on e that matches common
15:09:48 [danbri_scribe]
danbri: expresssiveness vs limits to graphs?
15:10:32 [danbri_scribe]
jjc: xslt 2 is ok?
15:10:41 [danbri_scribe]
danbri: yeah for starters, as easier
15:11:00 [Zakim]
15:11:03 [danbri_scribe]
[exit jeremy]
15:11:39 [danbri_scribe]
15:11:44 [danbri_scribe]
...can use for examples?
15:11:58 [danbri_scribe]
action: ben to pull in action items from prev meetings
15:12:13 [danbri_scribe]
action: ben to coordinate with mark for next week's meeting
15:13:55 [Zakim]
15:13:56 [danbri_scribe]
zakim, draft minutes
15:13:56 [Zakim]
15:13:58 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'draft minutes', danbri_scribe
15:14:03 [danbri_scribe]
zakim, please draft minutes
15:14:03 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'please draft minutes', danbri_scribe
15:14:06 [Zakim]
15:14:08 [danbri_scribe]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
15:14:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate danbri_scribe
15:14:08 [Zakim]
SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)10:00AM has ended
15:14:10 [Zakim]
Attendees were Ben_Adida, MarkB_, Danbri, Emiller, jjc
15:14:43 [danbri_scribe]
rrsagent, please make minutes world-readable
15:14:43 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'please make minutes world-readable', danbri_scribe. Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:14:50 [danbri_scribe]
rrsagent, please make minutes world-access
15:14:50 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'please make minutes world-access', danbri_scribe. Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:15:16 [danbri_scribe]
rrsagent, please make minutes world-visible
15:15:16 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'please make minutes world-visible', danbri_scribe. Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:16:04 [danbri_scribe]
rrsagent, please make logs world-visible
15:16:16 [benadida]
benadida has left #swbp
15:18:10 [danbri_scribe]
Meeting: SW Best Practices and Deployment and HTML WG RDF-in-HTML Task Force telecon
15:18:22 [danbri_scribe]
Chair: Ben Adida
15:18:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate danbri_scribe
15:25:58 [danbri_scribe]
Regrets: Steven, Ralph
15:26:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate danbri_scribe
16:26:59 [MarkB_]
Dan...are you still there?
16:27:40 [danbri_scribe]
16:28:13 [danbri]
just pondering
16:28:39 [MarkB_]
I have put together an XForms demo that takes Microsoft TerraServer maps, and overlays on top of it the results of a Google location search. It also overlays Norm Walsh's WITW data.
16:29:05 [MarkB_]
So as you move around, Starbucks and Indian restaurants move by, intermixed with people and their locations.
16:29:25 [danbri]
oh, nifty!
16:29:35 [danbri]
something i could try?
16:29:39 [MarkB_]
What would be great is if we had a 'data set' in XHTML 2 that gave us locations, people, FoaF files, etc.
16:29:52 [MarkB_]
danbrin has all he needs then!
16:30:18 [danbri]
ok, hmm dataset, let me have a think
16:30:29 [danbri]
rrsagent, part
16:30:29 [RRSAgent]
I see 6 open action items:
16:30:29 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ericm or danbri circulate results of london f2f meeting at IPTC (assuming it happens) [1]
16:30:29 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:30:29 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: danbri record an issue re # vs / [2]
16:30:29 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:30:29 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jjc to circulate www conf paper [3]
16:30:29 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:30:29 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: danbri make examples [4]
16:30:29 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:30:29 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ben to pull in action items from prev meetings [5]
16:30:29 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:30:29 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ben to coordinate with mark for next week's meeting [6]
16:30:29 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:30:30 [MarkB_]
You'll first have to go to our site and install the latest version of Sidewinder. It's in the 'preview' area of the download page.
16:30:34 [danbri]
zakim, part
16:30:34 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #swbp