IRC log of wai-wcag on 2005-06-23

Timestamps are in UTC.

18:40:02 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
18:40:02 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/23-wai-wcag-irc
18:40:09 [wendy]: RRSAGent, make log world
18:40:14 [wendy]: Meeting: WCAG WG weekly telecon
18:40:45 [wendy]: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0915.html
18:41:09 [wendy]: agenda+ Agenda overview (5 minutes)
18:41:16 [wendy]: agenda+ Techniques Task Fore (5 minutes)
18:41:51 [wendy]: agenda+ Review results of survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/misc0621/ (50 minutes)
18:42:09 [wendy]: agenda+ Review of Editor's Draft (90 minutes) http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2005/06/f2f-proposed-resolutions-draft.html
18:42:22 [wendy]: agenda+ Informative content: (30 minutes)
18:44:33 [wendy]: btw...
18:44:37 [wendy]: rrsagent, off
18:49:34 [wendy]: Regrets: Luca Mascaro, Roberto Castaldo, WATANABE Takayuki, Sebastiano Nutarelli
18:52:48 [Christophe]: Christophe has joined #wai-wcag
18:53:04 [Makoto]: Makoto has joined #wai-wcag
18:54:57 [Zakim]: wendy, you asked to be pinged at this time
18:55:53 [rellero]: rellero has joined #wai-wcag
18:56:56 [Zakim]: WAI_WCAG()3:00PM has now started
18:57:03 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
18:57:17 [Zakim]: -[IPcaller]
18:57:18 [Zakim]: WAI_WCAG()3:00PM has ended
18:57:20 [Zakim]: Attendees were [IPcaller]
18:57:59 [David]: David has joined #wai-wcag
18:59:43 [Zakim]: WAI_WCAG()3:00PM has now started
18:59:44 [Zakim]: +Wendy
18:59:49 [Zakim]: +Michael_Cooper
18:59:50 [Zakim]: -Michael_Cooper
18:59:51 [Zakim]: +Michael_Cooper
18:59:53 [Zakim]: +??P1
19:00:07 [wendy]: zakim, ??P1 is Gregg
19:00:07 [Zakim]: +Gregg; got it
19:00:08 [Zakim]: +John_Slatin
19:00:14 [Zakim]: +Dave_MacDonald
19:00:16 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
19:00:21 [David]: test
19:00:23 [jslatin]: jslatin has joined #wai-wcag
19:00:39 [wendy]: zakim, IPcaller is Makoto_Ueki
19:00:39 [Zakim]: +Makoto_Ueki; got it
19:01:06 [wendy]: zakim, Dave_MacDonald is David_MacDonald
19:01:06 [Zakim]: +David_MacDonald; got it
19:01:08 [Zakim]: +Bengt_Farre/Sebastiano
19:01:16 [Zakim]: +Christophe_Strobbe
19:01:44 [rellero]: zakim, Bengt_Farre/Sebastiano is rellero
19:01:44 [Zakim]: +rellero; got it
19:02:03 [joeclark]: joeclark has joined #wai-wcag
19:03:00 [Zakim]: +??P11
19:03:00 [wendy]: Chair: John, Gregg
19:03:11 [wendy]: zakim, ??P11 is Joe_Clark
19:03:11 [Zakim]: +Joe_Clark; got it
19:03:28 [wendy]: zakim, who's on the phone?
19:03:28 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Wendy, Michael_Cooper, Gregg, John_Slatin, David_MacDonald, Makoto_Ueki, rellero, Christophe_Strobbe, Joe_Clark
19:03:40 [Zakim]: +Ben
19:04:03 [Zakim]: +[IBM]
19:04:23 [wendy]: zakim, IBM is Andi_Snow-Weaver
19:04:24 [Zakim]: +Andi_Snow-Weaver; got it
19:04:39 [Becky]: Becky has joined #wai-wcag
19:04:52 [gregg]: gregg has joined #wai-wcag
19:05:02 [wendy]: zakim, take up item 1
19:05:02 [Zakim]: agendum 1. "Agenda overview (5 minutes)" taken up [from wendy]
19:05:49 [wendy]: scribe: wendy
19:06:12 [wendy]: agenda - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0915.html
19:06:17 [bengt]: bengt has joined #wai-wcag
19:06:26 [Zakim]: +Bengt_Farre/Sebastiano
19:07:00 [bengt]: zakim, I am Bengt_Farre
19:07:00 [Zakim]: ok, bengt, I now associate you with Bengt_Farre/Sebastiano
19:07:06 [wendy]: zakim, who's on the phone?
19:07:06 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Wendy, Michael_Cooper, Gregg, John_Slatin, David_MacDonald, Makoto_Ueki, rellero, Christophe_Strobbe, Joe_Clark, Ben, Andi_Snow-Weaver, Bengt_Farre/Sebastiano
19:07:09 [wendy]: zakim, who's making noise?
19:07:21 [Zakim]: wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Christophe_Strobbe (4%), Bengt_Farre/Sebastiano (5%)
19:07:32 [wendy]: zakim, Bengt_Farre/Sebastiano is Bengt_Farre
19:07:32 [Zakim]: +Bengt_Farre; got it
19:08:32 [wendy]: zakim, next item
19:08:32 [Zakim]: agendum 2. "Techniques Task Fore (5 minutes)" taken up [from wendy]
19:08:38 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
19:08:55 [wendy]: zakim, Microsoft is Mike_Barta
19:08:55 [Zakim]: +Mike_Barta; got it
19:09:55 [wendy]: mc: no techniques discussion at F2F. only updates to css, html, and scripting techniques for this publication is to update links to 30 june draft and a blurb that no major changes since november.
19:10:46 [wendy]: mc: hoping that guidelines/success criteria will settle/stabalize and focus of WCAG WG will turn to techniques
19:11:32 [Zakim]: +Matt
19:11:45 [Zakim]: -rellero
19:12:20 [Andi]: Andi has joined #wai-wcag
19:12:29 [Zakim]: +Bengt_Farre/Sebastiano
19:12:45 [rellero]: zakim, Bengt_Farre/Sebastiano is rellero
19:12:45 [Zakim]: +rellero; got it
19:12:47 [Zakim]: +Tim_Boland
19:13:34 [Tim]: Tim has joined #wai-wcag
19:13:46 [wendy]: resolution: publish css, html, and scripting techniques with updates to abstract/status and updated links to guidelines/success criteria
19:13:54 [wendy]: (comments made previously are in our issues list. no need to resubmit comments)
19:14:40 [wendy]: zakim, next item
19:14:40 [Zakim]: agendum 3. "Review results of survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/misc0621/ (50 minutes)" taken up [from wendy]
19:15:28 [wendy]: Topic: Guideline 1.2 L1 SC1: captions - should they remain level 1 or move to level 2?
19:15:32 [wendy]: regrets+ yvette
19:15:50 [wendy]: results - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/misc0621/results
19:15:57 [Michael]: q+ to say yvette's comment might overlap with mine
19:16:27 [Michael]: q-
19:17:10 [Zakim]: -Bengt_Farre
19:17:37 [wendy]: discussion about proposal for caption and/or transcript at level 1
19:17:54 [Zakim]: +Bengt_Farre/Sebastiano
19:18:13 [bengt]: zakim, Bengt_Farre/Sebastiano is Bengt_Farre
19:18:13 [Zakim]: +Bengt_Farre; got it
19:18:25 [wendy]: action: michael suggest editorial note for captions and/or transcript at level 1
19:18:47 [wendy]: resolution: keep captions at level 1
19:19:05 [wendy]: Topic: Guideline 1.2 L1 SC2: audio descriptions - should they remain level 1 or move to level 2?
19:19:29 [David]: David has joined #wai-wcag
19:19:46 [wendy]: survey results:
19:19:47 [wendy]: Prefer audio descriptions at Level 1 11
19:19:49 [wendy]: Can live with audio descriptions at Level 1 8
19:19:50 [wendy]: Can not live with audio descriptions at Level 1 2
19:19:52 [wendy]: Prefer audio descriptions at Level 2 6
19:19:54 [wendy]: Can live with audio descriptions at Level 2 1
19:19:55 [wendy]: Can not live with audio descriptions at Level 2 5
19:20:58 [wendy]: concern that there are no examples of audio descriptions in japanese
19:21:19 [wendy]: concern about lack of knowledge
19:21:19 [joeclark]: Makoto said there are no examples of multimedia with audio description in Japan.
19:22:31 [David]: q+
19:22:37 [wendy]: concern about skill required to write audio descriptions (art form)
19:22:51 [Makoto]: (we have TV, but not multimedia on web)
19:23:00 [wendy]: concern that too complex for level 1
19:23:12 [wendy]: ack david
19:23:18 [Zakim]: -rellero
19:23:22 [joeclark]: q+
19:23:43 [wendy]: concern that some people find the audio descriptions confusing and would need a way to turn them off.
19:23:45 [wendy]: ack joe
19:23:59 [Zakim]: +Bengt_Farre/Sebastiano
19:24:01 [wendy]: concern addressed by a technique for providing multiple versions
19:24:23 [rellero]: Zakim, Bengt_Farre/Sebastiano is rellero
19:24:23 [Zakim]: +rellero; got it
19:24:24 [wendy]: some multimedia requires audio descriptions, vs most multmedia requires captions
19:24:34 [wendy]: s/multmedia/multimedia
19:25:38 [Zakim]: +Becky_Gibson
19:27:38 [wendy]: zakim, who's making noise?
19:27:50 [Zakim]: wendy, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Makoto_Ueki (15%), John_Slatin (91%)
19:27:53 [Makoto]: zakim, mute me
19:27:53 [Zakim]: Makoto_Ueki should now be muted
19:28:42 [Zakim]: -Bengt_Farre
19:29:28 [Zakim]: +Bengt_Farre/Sebastiano
19:29:28 [wendy]: resolution: keep audio description at level 1. tweak editorial note that policy would describe scoping.
19:29:33 [bengt]: zakim, Bengt_Farre/Sebastiano is Bengt_Farre
19:29:33 [Zakim]: +Bengt_Farre; got it
19:29:40 [David]: David has joined #wai-wcag
19:30:06 [joeclark]: q?
19:30:08 [joeclark]: q+
19:30:43 [wendy]: concern that definition of audio description needs to include information that listening to the AD is optional. Counter that don't want to add to every definition that viewing the info is possible and should be handled in techniques.
19:30:59 [wendy]: s/viewing/viewing or experiencing
19:31:07 [wendy]: ack joe
19:31:49 [wendy]: ack tim
19:33:23 [wendy]: resolution: keep audio description at level 1
19:33:35 [wendy]: Topic: Updated proposal for Guideline 2.3, its success criteria, and related definitions
19:33:52 [wendy]: Proposed wording is better than current wording. 12
19:33:53 [wendy]: Current wording is better than proposed wording. 4
19:33:55 [wendy]: Other 2
19:34:15 [wendy]: concern that taking specificity out opens up the guideline to say "you must do x, but we won't tell you x"
19:34:28 [wendy]: concern if don't specify which standards there will be fragmentation
19:35:19 [wendy]: rationle for removing - those that had been included were computer screen adaptation created with Graham Harding. Some of those guidelines/standards are being revised plus an attempt to create an international standard.
19:36:06 [wendy]: further, if we engrained numbers in our guidelines and the international standards came out with different numbers, there would be a conflict.
19:36:12 [wendy]: q+
19:36:52 [wendy]: options: 1. proposed wording + ednote (with specifics) and ask for feedback
19:37:23 [wendy]: 2. current wording with understanding that if/when inat'l standard published publish an updated wcag 2.0
19:38:12 [Zakim]: +Loretta_Guarino_Reid
19:38:27 [wendy]: 3. these are our recommendations, but if national, or international those will prevail
19:38:46 [wendy]: q-
19:40:08 [wendy]: option 1: proposed wording
19:40:10 [wendy]: option 2: current
19:40:26 [wendy]: optiion 3: current w/possibility to publish updated rec
19:40:43 [wendy]: option 4: current wording with clause that national or international standards prevail
19:42:02 [wendy]: options 1 and 4 had some support, 2 and 3 did not have any support
19:44:27 [wendy]: resolution: keep current wording and add a clause that national or international standards prevail
19:44:52 [ben]: q+
19:44:55 [wendy]: Topic: Keep the existing text of Guideline 2.4 Level 2 SC1: More than one way is available to locate content within a set of delivery units?
19:45:03 [wendy]: q-
19:45:04 [ben]: q-
19:45:16 [wendy]: action: gregg propose clause for guideline 2.3
19:46:08 [wendy]: Can live with the current wording for the 30 June 2005 Working Draft. 17
19:46:09 [wendy]: Can not live with the current wording for th 30 June 2005 Working Draft. 2
19:46:11 [wendy]: Other 1
19:47:27 [wendy]: concern that this is a problem for web applications
19:49:07 [wendy]: concern about how you apply to voicexml
19:50:10 [David_]: David_ has joined #wai-wcag
19:50:46 [wendy]: resolution: keep current wording w/ednote about concern about applying to web applications
19:50:56 [wendy]: Topic: Move Guideline 2.4 Level 3 SC1 from Level 3 to Level 1?
19:51:05 [wendy]: Move G2.4 L3 SC1 to Level 1 9
19:51:07 [wendy]: Keep G2.4 L3 SC1 at Level 3. 8
19:51:09 [wendy]: Other 3
19:51:38 [wendy]: Guideline 2.4 level 3 SC1: When a page or other delivery unit is navigated sequentially, elements receive focus in an order that follows relationships and sequences in the content.
19:52:16 [ben]: q+ to ask, "what was the rationale for this proposal?"
19:52:30 [joeclark]: q+
19:52:51 [wendy]: ack ben
19:52:51 [Zakim]: ben, you wanted to ask, "what was the rationale for this proposal?"
19:53:53 [wendy]: concern about rationale for moving. response that it is critical for successful navigation and meets our defn of level 1.
19:53:55 [wendy]: ack joe
19:54:13 [David_]: q+
19:55:43 [wendy]: need to test css layouts and tab order and that this might be a wcag 1.0-esque "layout table" issue
19:55:45 [wendy]: ack or
19:55:48 [wendy]: ack lor
19:56:20 [wendy]: concern that have seen tab order and dom order not the same and issue.
19:56:49 [wendy]: ack dav
19:57:24 [wendy]: concern that if people can choose their own order they'll get confused
19:59:50 [wendy]: several people can't live with it at level 1, uncertainty about level 2, everyone can live with at level 3
20:00:03 [Zakim]: -Tim_Boland
20:00:06 [wendy]: resolution: leave Guideline 2.4 Level 3 SC1 at Level 3
20:00:14 [Tim]: Tim has left #wai-wcag
20:00:44 [wendy]: Topic: Updated proposal for Guideline 4.2 Level 1 multiple criterion to replace current level 1 success criterion 2
20:00:56 [wendy]: Proposed wording is better than current wording. 13
20:00:57 [wendy]: Current wording is better than proposed wording. 4
20:00:59 [wendy]: Other 1
20:01:42 [wendy]: zakim, who's on the phone?
20:01:42 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Wendy, Michael_Cooper, Gregg, John_Slatin, David_MacDonald, Makoto_Ueki (muted), Christophe_Strobbe, Joe_Clark, Ben, Andi_Snow-Weaver, Mike_Barta, Matt, rellero,
20:01:43 [rellero]: yes without microphone
20:01:46 [Zakim]: ... Becky_Gibson, Bengt_Farre, Loretta_Guarino_Reid
20:02:47 [wendy]: roberto ellero - can you give us more information about why you prefer the current wording or can you live with the proposed wording?
20:03:08 [rellero]: i've indicate prefer second choice
20:03:16 [wendy]: yes, can you give more information about why?
20:03:26 [wendy]: can you live with the proposed wording?
20:03:57 [rellero]: it's more intelligible
20:04:34 [wendy]: roberto, can you accept the proposed wording even if you prefer the current wording?
20:04:36 [rellero]: i find the new wording is less specific and
20:05:06 [rellero]: introduce ambiguity as
20:05:28 [rellero]: alternative version in a generic way
20:05:29 [rellero]: ok
20:06:18 [wendy]: resolution: adopt proposed wording for Guideline 4.2 Level 1 multiple criterion to replace current level 1 success criterion 2
20:06:23 [wendy]: scribe: David
20:06:25 [David_]: scribe: david
20:06:51 [wendy]: Topic: Delete current Guideline 4.2 Level 2 SC1 or move to Level 3?
20:06:59 [David_]: 4.2 Level 2 SC1 or move to Level 3?
20:07:17 [wendy]: scribe: David_
20:07:40 [David_]: Delete Guideline 4.2 Level 2 SC 1 4
20:08:02 [David_]: resolution: leave it where it is and write editorial note
20:09:07 [David_]: resolution: leave 4.2 L 2 where it is and write editorial
20:09:28 [David_]: action: write an editorial note by John
20:09:52 [wendy]: action 3 = John write editorial note for Guideline 4.2 Level 2 SC1
20:11:29 [David_]: Resolusion: Proposed wording for guideline 4.2 new Level 3 SC1:adopted
20:11:56 [wendy]: Topic: wo or three levels of conformance?
20:11:59 [David_]: Resolution: Proposed wording for guideline 4.2 new Level 3 SC1:adopted
20:12:04 [ben]: s/Resolusion/Resolution
20:12:07 [wendy]: s/w/two
20:12:50 [David_]: topic: Two or three levels of conformance?
20:15:24 [David_]: summary : the 3 top options (1) 3 levels (2) 2 levels everything in 3 to advisory (3) 3 level with 3rd divided
20:16:00 [David_]: a few people can't live with 3 levels
20:16:13 [David_]: a bunch can't live with 2nd option
20:16:53 [bengt]: !
20:16:57 [David_]: a bunch can't live with 3rd option
20:17:42 [Andi]: q+
20:17:46 [wendy]: ack mi
20:17:48 [wendy]: ack an
20:17:48 [David_]: concerns that were getting into policy when we specify conformance in verticle segments, let governments to that (Mike B)
20:18:31 [David_]: asw: concerned that with 3 levels and 3rd unachievable some poliy people would expose us
20:19:32 [David_]: can't get unanimity, so we'll go for broad concensis and invite people with concerns to submit them
20:19:56 [David_]: wc: we can specifically ask for this in review....
20:20:38 [joeclark]: q+
20:21:46 [David_]: gv: we try to reach broad consenus to document that we cold not reach unanimity
20:21:58 [David_]: s/cold/could
20:22:24 [David_]: wc: we can record formal rejection
20:22:29 [joeclark]: q!
20:22:34 [joeclark]: q?
20:23:08 [David_]: js: proposal to leave it as it is for this draft and invite opposition
20:23:24 [wendy]: q+ to read defn of consensus
20:23:26 [wendy]: ack joe
20:25:20 [joeclark]: joeclark said on the call that we don't have consensus on either three or two levels (at best one of those camps has a couple more votes than the other camp); it is also inaccurate to say that we have consensus on the current status quo with objections. I believe that the entire issue of three vs. two levels is up in the air and there is no consensus at all.
20:25:23 [David_]: dessent is at least one objection
20:25:38 [wendy]: http://www.w3.org/2004/02/Process-20040205/policies.html#Consensus
20:26:41 [David_]: resolution: there is a decision to stay with 3levels with serious dessent
20:26:54 [wendy]: s/dessent/dissent
20:27:04 [David_]: s/dessent/dissent
20:28:39 [wendy]: zakim, take up next item
20:28:39 [Zakim]: agendum 4. "Review of Editor's Draft (90 minutes) http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2005/06/f2f-proposed-resolutions-draft.html" taken up [from wendy]
20:29:27 [ben]: q+
20:29:31 [wendy]: q-
20:29:40 [wendy]: ack ben
20:30:16 [ben]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0932.html
20:30:26 [joeclark]: q+
20:30:34 [wendy]: ack joe
20:30:36 [David_]: bc: wanted clarification on 1.3 Level 3 critierion, we resolved to move from 3.2 to 1.3, question o we need a sc under gl 1.3 or is it covered
20:31:35 [David_]: jc: with css layouts it is not immediately obvious of the reading order, and sometimes not an issue
20:32:33 [David_]: Resolution: unanimous consent to accept the f2f resolutons for GL and SC under Principle 1
20:34:01 [ben]: q+
20:34:51 [ben]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0936.html
20:35:37 [David_]: bc: want to make sure we open up anbigiuos wording I proposed 2 options Level 1 SC2 , L2 Sc1
20:36:03 [wendy]: q+
20:36:06 [wendy]: ack ben
20:36:09 [joeclark]: q+
20:36:26 [David_]: s/anbigiuos/ambiguous
20:37:04 [wendy]: ack wendy
20:37:59 [wendy]: ack joe
20:38:42 [David_]: jc: previous wording clearer on plain language,
20:39:19 [Andi]: q+
20:39:20 [David__]: David__ has joined #wai-wcag
20:39:26 [wendy]: ack john
20:39:30 [gregg]: q+
20:40:13 [David__]: js: I want to say information conveyed by colour is available without colour
20:40:23 [joeclark]: joeclark said on the call that the original intent was to prevent authors from relying solely on colour (which really means confusable colours like red and green), which is an easy thing to say in plain language. The current wording is a no-brainer-- colour is always programmatically determinable (unless it's in an image), same with text features. Let's give this one another try.
20:40:25 [David__]: js: same true about variation of text
20:40:45 [wendy]: ack andi
20:41:14 [David__]: asw: can't always tell colour ie, in flash
20:41:19 [wendy]: ack gregg
20:41:55 [David__]: gv: the reason we moved away from od language, is because people are discouraged from using colur and sometime it helps
20:42:43 [David__]: test
20:42:58 [David__]: urrg I keep dropping am I in now
20:43:08 [wendy]: ack mike
20:43:17 [David__]: q+
20:43:20 [David__]: q-
20:43:53 [wendy]: ack john
20:44:11 [David__]: mb: we came back to "the colour info is conveyed, not the info itself is conveyed without colour"
20:45:08 [David__]: Asw: When information is conveyed with color, the color can be programmatically determined or the information is also conveyed through another means that does not depend on the user's ability to differentiate colors.
20:46:13 [David__]: Resolution accept andi's proposals "When information is conveyed with color, the color can be programmatically determined or the information is also conveyed through another means that does not depend on the user's ability to differentiate colors."
20:46:17 [wendy]: for guideline 1.3 L1 SC2
20:46:29 [David__]: Resolution: accept andi's proposals "When information is conveyed with color, the color can be programmatically determined or the information is also conveyed through another means that does not depend on the user's ability to differentiate colors."
20:47:05 [David__]: Resolution: accept andi's proposals "When information is conveyed with color, the color can be programmatically determined or the information is also conveyed through another means that does not depend on the user's ability to differentiate colors." for guideline 1.3 L1 SC2
20:47:19 [wendy]: ack loretta
20:49:05 [Christophe]: zakim, mute me
20:49:05 [Zakim]: Christophe_Strobbe should now be muted
20:49:13 [Andi]: q+
20:49:51 [wendy]: ack andi
20:50:35 [Andi]: scribe: Andi
20:50:39 [Christophe]: zakim, unmute me
20:50:39 [Zakim]: Christophe_Strobbe should no longer be muted
20:50:40 [ben]: proposed: When information is conveyed with color, the color information is also conveyed through another means that does not depend on the user's ability to differentiate colors.
20:51:11 [Andi]: resolution: GL 1.3 L2 SC 2 - move example to "examples" or guide document.
20:51:13 [David___]: David___ has joined #wai-wcag
20:51:45 [joeclark]: q?
20:51:47 [joeclark]: q+
20:51:54 [David___]: q+
20:52:00 [ben]: When information is conveyed by color, the color information is also conveyed through another means that does not depend on the user's ability to differentiate colors without the use of assistive technologies.
20:52:00 [David___]: q-
20:52:16 [Andi]: resolution: modify proposal for GL 1.3 L1 SC 2 to say "by color" instead of "with color"
20:52:49 [Andi]: q+
20:52:57 [wendy]: ack joe
20:53:07 [wendy]: ack andi
20:53:45 [David___]: test
20:57:41 [Andi]: resolution: GL 1.3 L2 SC 2 - accept Ben's proposal: "When information is conveyed by color, the color information is also conveyed through another means that does not depend on the user's ability to differentiate colors without the use of assistive technologies." with the provision that the editors have permission to clean up the wording but not change the intent.
20:58:47 [Zakim]: -Joe_Clark
20:58:48 [joeclark]: joeclark has left #wai-wcag
20:59:04 [Zakim]: -Michael_Cooper
20:59:05 [Andi]: resolution: proposed wording for all guidelines and success criteria in 2.x are accepted
21:00:10 [Andi]: resolution: proposed wording for all guidelines and success criteria under principle 3 are accepted for this draft
21:03:51 [Andi]: Wendy suggests a more conservative approach for GL 4.1 - leave as it is with an editorial note that we are considering changing it vs. changing it with an editorial note that we have issues.
21:03:51 [Christophe]: q+
21:04:00 [ben]: q+
21:04:09 [David___]: q+
21:04:28 [wendy]: q+ to say want more opp to talk with other w3c folks
21:04:37 [Andi]: Gregg thinks that if we are going to have another draft before Last Call, it's okay to leave it as is. But it wouldn't be a good idea to move it for the first time in the Last Call draft.
21:06:13 [Andi]: Wendy - more concern about moving it from Level 2 to Level 1 in LC draft than in moving from Level 1 to Level 2
21:06:52 [wendy]: q-
21:07:00 [Andi]: Wendy needs more time to discuss the issue in W3C
21:07:05 [gregg]: ack chri
21:07:25 [Andi]: Christoffe points out that well-formedness doesn't apply to SGML
21:08:05 [Christophe]: see proposal at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0841.html
21:08:23 [gregg]: q+
21:08:33 [Andi]: see Christophe's proposal at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0841.html
21:11:37 [wendy]: ack ben
21:11:39 [wendy]: ack david
21:12:06 [Christophe]: s/Christoffe/Christophe
21:14:15 [Zakim]: -Becky_Gibson
21:15:18 [David___]: q+
21:15:51 [gregg]: q+
21:15:51 [wendy]: ack lor
21:16:18 [Andi]: Wendy proposed writing a lengthy discussion of this topic to be located outside of the guidelines. The Ed note in the document could be short and simply link to the detailed description.
21:17:32 [Christophe]: proposal: split the SC on wellformedness
21:17:37 [Christophe]: Level 1 SC1: Non-XML SGML-based delivery units are formatted according to the SGML declaration of their specification or to the Reference Concrete Syntax if no SGML declaration is defined. [I]
21:17:40 [wendy]: ack gregg
21:17:46 [Andi]: Summary of Christophe's proposal: split the SC on wellformedness
21:17:54 [Andi]: Level 1 SC1: Non-XML SGML-based delivery units are formatted according to the SGML declaration of their specification or to the Reference Concrete Syntax if no SGML declaration is defined. [I]
21:17:54 [Christophe]: Level 1 SC2: XML-based delivery units are well-formed.[I] Note: This does not require that they are valid.
21:18:00 [Andi]: Level 1 SC2: XML-based delivery units are well-formed.[I] Note: This does not require that they are valid.
21:18:53 [Andi]: q+
21:19:09 [wendy]: ack david
21:19:49 [wendy]: ack andi
21:20:38 [Andi]: David proposes leaving the SC out altogether with an editorial note that we're considering putting it in.
21:25:07 [Andi]: resolution: leave all of the SC out and have an ed note stating the problem and pointing people to an external page describing the problem in more detail along with our current proposals. Ed note will invite comment and comments can be added to the "problem/proposal" page.
21:25:36 [Andi]: resolution: <update> resolution: leave all of the SC out of GL 4.1 and have an ed note stating the problem and pointing people to an external page describing the problem in more detail along with our current proposals. Ed note will invite comment and comments can be added to the "problem/proposal" page.
21:26:12 [Andi]: action: Wendy to create the external page describing the problem and the proposed resolutions for GL 4.1
21:26:35 [wendy]: zakim, next item
21:26:35 [Zakim]: agendum 5. "Informative content: (30 minutes)" taken up [from wendy]
21:26:49 [Andi]: s/proposed resolutions/proposals
21:27:14 [wendy]: Topic: introduction - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/att-0924/intro_wcag20_2005-06-21.htm
21:28:00 [Andi]: resolution: include John's new introduction in June 30th draft
21:28:26 [wendy]: Topic: Checklits
21:28:33 [wendy]: s/checklits/checklist
21:28:34 [wendy]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2005/06/checklist-proto.html
21:29:54 [Andi]: resolution: publish the first public working draft of the WCAG 2.0 checklist
21:32:38 [wendy]: exclusion - Note: The First Public Working Draft is significant with respect to the W3C Patent Policy. As explained in the Patent Policy FAQ, the Communications Team issues a Call for Exclusions (see section 4 of the W3C Patent Policy) approximately ninety days after the publication of this draft.
21:32:50 [wendy]: PP FAQ - http://www.w3.org/2003/12/22-pp-faq.html#exclusion-date
21:33:48 [wendy]: q+
21:34:31 [wendy]: previously published general techniqeus: http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-WCAG20-GENERAL-20041119/
21:35:56 [wendy]: john's 4 may proposals for guideline 3.1 guide docs: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0368.html
21:39:11 [Andi]: resolution: For June 30th draft, publish General Techniques as a non-consensus document.
21:39:48 [wendy]: (includes john's 3.1 proposals and adaptations of previously published general techniques into new guide format
21:40:12 [wendy]: zakim, next item
21:40:12 [Zakim]: I do not see any non-closed agenda items, wendy
21:40:38 [wendy]: q-
21:41:27 [Zakim]: -Mike_Barta
21:43:02 [Zakim]: -rellero
21:45:34 [Andi]: discussion about length of time to allow for review - usually give 30 days but this is holiday season for many - should we give more time?
21:46:05 [Andi]: more time jeapordizes our ability to get to Last Call in September
21:47:25 [Andi]: q+
21:49:14 [wendy]: ack andi
21:53:24 [wendy]: action: everyone who did an issue summary/guideline proposal send a list of how the accepted wording closes the issues for that guideline as well as which issues are still open.
21:54:37 [judy]: judy has joined #wai-wcag
21:56:08 [Andi]: action: Gregg to send proposed form for comment submission to editors
21:56:35 [Andi]: if comments are received in a standard format, Gregg has an admin who can be trained to enter them into Bugzilla
21:58:30 [Andi]: resolution: W3C staff will work with W3C management to ensure "status" on checklist is correct.
21:58:44 [Zakim]: -Wendy
21:58:45 [Zakim]: -Loretta_Guarino_Reid
21:58:46 [Zakim]: -John_Slatin
21:58:47 [Zakim]: -Ben
21:58:49 [Zakim]: -Andi_Snow-Weaver
21:58:50 [Zakim]: -Matt
21:58:52 [Zakim]: -Gregg
21:58:53 [Zakim]: -Bengt_Farre
21:58:55 [Zakim]: -David_MacDonald
21:58:57 [Zakim]: -Christophe_Strobbe
21:59:35 [jslatin]: good bye, christophe, and thanks!
21:59:52 [wendy]: g'night
21:59:55 [wendy]: RRSAGent, draft minutes
21:59:55 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/06/23-wai-wcag-minutes.html wendy
22:00:07 [Andi]: Good-bye Christophe
22:00:07 [Andi]: all of my chocolates are gone. :-(
22:00:30 [wendy]: chocolates...i only gave one of my 4 boxes away. heh.
22:00:44 [Andi]: you are very smart Wendy
22:00:53 [wendy]: RRSAgent, off
22:02:20 [wendy]: Present: Wendy Chisholm, Michael_Cooper, Gregg, John_Slatin, Makoto_Ueki, David_MacDonald, Christophe_Strobbe, roberto ellero, Joe_Clark, Ben Caldwell, Andi_Snow-Weaver, Bengt_Farre, Mike_Barta, Matt, Tim_Boland, Becky_Gibson, Loretta_Guarino_Reid
22:02:26 [wendy]: RRSAGent, draft minutes
22:02:26 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/06/23-wai-wcag-minutes.html wendy
22:03:30 [Christophe]: Christophe has left #wai-wcag
22:03:31 [wendy]: RRSAgent, bye
22:03:31 [RRSAgent]: I see 6 open action items:
22:03:31 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: michael suggest editorial note for captions and/or transcript at level 1 [1]
22:03:31 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/23-wai-wcag-irc#T19-18-25
22:03:31 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: gregg propose clause for guideline 2.3 [2]
22:03:31 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/23-wai-wcag-irc#T19-45-16
22:03:31 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: John write editorial note for Guideline 4.2 Level 2 SC1 [3]
22:03:31 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/23-wai-wcag-irc#T20-09-28
22:03:31 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Wendy to create the external page describing the problem and the proposed resolutions for GL 4.1 [4]
22:03:31 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/23-wai-wcag-irc#T21-26-12
22:03:31 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: everyone who did an issue summary/guideline proposal send a list of how the accepted wording closes the issues for that guideline as well as which issues are still open. [5]
22:03:31 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/23-wai-wcag-irc#T21-53-24
22:03:31 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Gregg to send proposed form for comment submission to editors [6]
22:03:31 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/06/23-wai-wcag-irc#T21-56-08