IRC log of er on 2005-05-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:43:47 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #er
15:43:47 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/05/24-er-irc
15:43:55 [shadi]
zakim, this will be ERT
15:43:56 [Zakim]
ok, shadi; I see WAI_ERTWG()12:00PM scheduled to start in 17 minutes
15:44:05 [shadi]
Meeting: ERT WG
15:44:20 [shadi]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-ert/2005May/0035.html
15:44:29 [shadi]
Scribe: Wendy
15:44:35 [shadi]
Chair: Shadi
15:45:15 [shadi]
Regrets: Chrisoula, Chris, Johannes, Sandor, Nick, Gabriele
15:45:32 [shadi]
agenda+ Referencing External Vocabulary in EARL
15:45:45 [shadi]
agenda+ Identifying Assertors of Type "Tool"
15:45:58 [shadi]
agenda+ (Continued) Proposed Changes to the EARL Schema
15:50:41 [JibberJim]
JibberJim has joined #er
15:57:54 [CarlosI]
CarlosI has joined #er
15:59:40 [Zakim]
WAI_ERTWG()12:00PM has now started
15:59:43 [Zakim]
+Shadi
16:00:45 [JibberJim]
Zakim, what's the phone number?
16:00:45 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, JibberJim.
16:00:55 [JibberJim]
zakim, help
16:00:55 [Zakim]
Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot for more detailed help.
16:00:57 [Zakim]
Some of the commands I know are:
16:00:58 [shadi]
zakim, code?
16:00:59 [Zakim]
xxx is yyy - establish yyy as the name of unknown party xxx
16:01:01 [Zakim]
if yyy is 'me' or 'I', your nick is substituted
16:01:03 [Zakim]
xxx may be yyy - establish yyy as possibly the name of unknown party xxx
16:01:06 [Zakim]
I am xxx - establish your nick as the name of unknown party xxx
16:01:08 [Zakim]
xxx holds yyy [, zzz ...] - establish xxx as a group name and yyy, etc. as participants within that group
16:01:10 [Zakim]
xxx also holds yyy - add yyy to the list of participants in group xxx
16:01:13 [Zakim]
who's here? - lists the participants on the phone
16:01:16 [Zakim]
who's muted? - lists the participants who are muted
16:01:18 [Zakim]
mute xxx - mutes party xxx (like pressing 61#)
16:01:20 [Zakim]
unmute xxx - reverses the effect of "mute" and of 61#
16:01:23 [Zakim]
is xxx here? - reports whether a party named like xxx is present
16:01:25 [Zakim]
list conferences - reports the active conferences
16:01:26 [Zakim]
this is xxx - associates this channel with conference xxx
16:01:28 [Zakim]
excuse us - disconnects from the irc channel
16:01:30 [Zakim]
I last learned something new on $Date: 2005/04/14 19:24:28 $
16:01:31 [Zakim]
the conference code is 3794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200), shadi
16:02:03 [chaals]
chaals has joined #er
16:02:09 [chaals]
calling in a second...
16:03:00 [chaals]
zakim, code?
16:03:00 [Zakim]
the conference code is 3794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200), chaals
16:03:42 [chaals]
Wow, zakim should read the UAAG and give people enough time to respond
16:04:03 [shadi]
*lol*
16:05:09 [chaals]
Grr. won't accept my DTMF tones, either :-(
16:05:45 [shadi]
yes, has been happening to quite many people lately
16:06:10 [shadi]
i believe ralph and the systeam are already aware and working on it
16:06:24 [shadi]
are you using skype?
16:07:00 [wendy]
wendy has joined #er
16:07:03 [JibberJim]
it's not letting me in...
16:07:06 [wendy]
zakim, code?
16:07:06 [Zakim]
the conference code is 3794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200), wendy
16:07:11 [chaals]
he just keeps hanging up
16:07:24 [JibberJim]
yes, here too
16:07:37 [JibberJim]
on a real phone
16:07:41 [shadi]
:(
16:07:45 [Zakim]
+Wendy
16:07:57 [JibberJim]
oh, he like Wendy...
16:07:58 [wendy]
zakim, drop wendy
16:07:58 [Zakim]
Wendy is being disconnected
16:07:59 [Zakim]
-Wendy
16:08:35 [Zakim]
+Wendy
16:09:00 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
16:09:00 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Shadi, Wendy
16:09:52 [shadi]
jim, you can wait until the operator answers.
16:09:59 [CarlosI]
Trying to call...
16:10:07 [shadi]
she (amy) can then help you onto the bridge
16:10:23 [chaals]
the operator doesn't answer, I just get hung up :-(
16:10:45 [JibberJim]
I get hung up after ending the code which seems to be accepted
16:10:51 [JibberJim]
er entering
16:11:58 [shadi]
trying to get help...
16:14:37 [shadi]
are you guys still trying and getting the same message? chaals are you having the same problem as jim (accepts code then hangs up)?
16:15:15 [chaals]
yep.
16:15:31 [JibberJim]
tried 3 times, I'll try again
16:15:41 [Zakim]
-Shadi
16:16:34 [Zakim]
+Shadi
16:17:04 [shadi]
:(
16:17:36 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
16:17:37 [CarlosI]
CarlosI has joined #er
16:17:46 [chaals]
zakim, ipcaller is chaals
16:17:46 [Zakim]
+chaals; got it
16:18:23 [Zakim]
+Jim_Ley
16:19:06 [Zakim]
+??P3
16:19:47 [JibberJim]
mute Jim_Ly
16:19:49 [JibberJim]
mute Jim_Ley
16:19:54 [JibberJim]
zakim, mute Jim_Ley
16:19:54 [Zakim]
Jim_Ley should now be muted
16:20:02 [shadi]
zakim, ?? is really CarlosI
16:20:02 [Zakim]
+CarlosI; got it
16:20:13 [JibberJim]
Sorry, I'm stuck in an office I'm visiting...
16:20:51 [wendy]
scribe: wendy
16:21:48 [wendy]
zakim, take up item 1
16:21:48 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Referencing External Vocabulary in EARL" taken up [from shadi]
16:22:22 [shadi]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-ert/2005May/0031.html
16:24:01 [wendy]
saz: outlines possibilties in uri above
16:24:27 [wendy]
ack ch
16:25:02 [wendy]
cmn's response: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-ert/2005May/0036.html
16:25:08 [wendy]
cmn: we shouldn't add things we don't need.
16:26:50 [wendy]
saz responds, concern about stability - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-ert/2005May/0037.html
16:27:31 [wendy]
cmn: for each, determine if stable. if it has wide implementation it is likely stable.
16:27:43 [wendy]
cmn: don't need to say anything more in our schema.
16:28:39 [chaals]
cmn: where we find something that we have created is the same as something else, we should say so, but we should avoid doing it if possible
16:28:59 [wendy]
saz: 3 points for discussion - 1. foaf stability 2. referencing external vocabulary (e.g., dc:date) 3. owl constraints to select a person or tool as an assertor
16:29:19 [shadi]
<owl:Class rdf:about="&earl;Assertor">
16:29:19 [shadi]
<rdfs:label xml:lang="en">Assertor</rdfs:label>
16:29:19 [shadi]
<rdfs:comment xml:lang="en">Person or Tool that claims assertions</rdfs:comment>
16:29:19 [shadi]
<owl:oneOf rdf:parseType="Collection">
16:29:19 [shadi]
<owl:Thing rdf:about="&earl;Tool"/>
16:29:20 [shadi]
<owl:Thing rdf:about="&foaf;Person"/>
16:29:22 [shadi]
</owl:oneOf>
16:29:24 [shadi]
</owl:Class>
16:29:42 [wendy]
saz: this is a way of referencing a foaf:person as an assertor
16:30:06 [chaals]
s/anything more in our schema/anything about the property or class itself - add owl constraints and use rdf:seealso to point to it/
16:30:10 [wendy]
saz: avoid duplicating 'person' directly use person
16:30:21 [wendy]
cmn: good idea
16:30:35 [JibberJim]
zakim, unmute Jim_Ley
16:30:35 [Zakim]
Jim_Ley should no longer be muted
16:30:58 [shadi]
<rdf:Property rdf:about="&earl;ToolName" rdfs:label="Name of a Tool">
16:30:58 [shadi]
<rdfs:domain rdf:resource="&earl;Tool"/>
16:30:58 [shadi]
<owl:sameAs rdf:resource="&dc;title" />
16:30:58 [shadi]
</rdf:Property>
16:31:14 [wendy]
jl: we should use foaf:person
16:31:26 [JibberJim]
zakim, mute Jim_Ley
16:31:26 [Zakim]
Jim_Ley should now be muted
16:32:37 [wendy]
saz: reuse whatever is defined in dc.
16:32:42 [JibberJim]
q+
16:32:44 [wendy]
ack c
16:32:44 [Zakim]
chaals, you wanted to say bad idea
16:32:51 [JibberJim]
q-
16:32:58 [JibberJim]
q+ I agree with chaals
16:33:07 [wendy]
cmn: if we're creating something that's the same as something else, why not just use the something else?
16:34:43 [wendy]
saz: how do we formalize?
16:35:03 [wendy]
cmn: 1st e.g., formalizes nicely.
16:35:13 [wendy]
cmn: eithe foaf:person or a tool
16:35:18 [wendy]
s/eithe/either
16:36:01 [wendy]
cmn: tools must have a dc:title
16:36:49 [wendy]
saz: need to dig into owl to determine how to express something like that.
16:36:59 [JibberJim]
No, just agree with him, very noisy here
16:37:40 [shadi]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/EARL10/schema.html
16:38:08 [chaals]
action: chaals dig out how to require some non-earl property in the earl spec, using OWL
16:39:05 [wendy]
cmn: refers to email http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-ert/2005May/0041.html
16:39:42 [wendy]
cmn: conformance to earl spec
16:40:02 [wendy]
saz: need to discuss at some point. plan to send requirements draft in next week.
16:40:29 [wendy]
saz: considering minimum earl (for interoperability).
16:41:15 [wendy]
saz: tool that outputs earl doesn't necessarily need to know owl. but tools that validate earl, will need to. be careful to ensure we're using things that are supported by parsers/tools.
16:42:14 [wendy]
zakim, close this item
16:42:14 [Zakim]
agendum 1 closed
16:42:15 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:42:16 [Zakim]
2. Identifying Assertors of Type "Tool" [from shadi]
16:42:23 [wendy]
zakim, take up next item
16:42:23 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Identifying Assertors of Type "Tool"" taken up [from shadi]
16:43:05 [wendy]
saz: sandor sent about doap - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-ert/2005May/0032.html
16:43:19 [wendy]
saz: not stable and not widely distributed.
16:43:59 [wendy]
saz: either define own versioning, or follow owl and dc path - provide hooks for specific domains to develop own versioning OR continue searching for something.
16:44:25 [wendy]
ack c
16:44:25 [Zakim]
chaals, you wanted to say let's keep looking
16:44:48 [wendy]
cmn: let's keep looking. write requirements for vocabulary and include in requirements doc.
16:45:24 [wendy]
cmn: have other things to do first, so can put off for a while. if finish everything else, then fill the gap w/our own.
16:45:58 [wendy]
saz: it's not essential now. may be other ways to identify a tool.
16:47:00 [JibberJim]
I can take it if needed, but I'm quite busy if it's not urgent
16:47:28 [wendy]
saz: i'll follow-up with sandor to see if he wants to do more searching.
16:48:44 [wendy]
saz: while foaf is widely spread, libby said that only 1 entity was fully tested. others are not stable. don't want to take foaf as a given and at a later stage discover can't depend on.
16:49:02 [wendy]
saz: will continue discussions with libby, but will need to consider again. "foaf ornot to foaf"
16:49:09 [wendy]
zakim, close this item
16:49:09 [Zakim]
agendum 2 closed
16:49:10 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
16:49:11 [Zakim]
3. (Continued) Proposed Changes to the EARL Schema [from shadi]
16:49:17 [wendy]
zakim, take up next item
16:49:17 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "(Continued) Proposed Changes to the EARL Schema" taken up [from shadi]
16:49:28 [wendy]
saz: don't want to get into too deeply w/out rest of the group.
16:49:45 [shadi]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/EARL10/schema.html#prop-result
16:50:32 [wendy]
saz: new property - precision
16:51:14 [wendy]
ack c
16:51:14 [Zakim]
chaals, you wanted to say yes to dc:description, no to earl:precision as currently modelled... should use datatypes or (as a last resort) the class model DanC calls curried
16:51:18 [Zakim]
... something
16:51:56 [wendy]
cmn: yes to dc:description, no to earl:precision as currently modelled... should use datatypes or (as a last resort) the class model DanC calls curried something
16:52:20 [wendy]
cmn: either be similar to TestResult (datatype for non-literal) or ...
16:52:42 [wendy]
cmn: confidence isn't clear how it works, therefore not a great idea to add another property that describes something we don't understand yet.
16:53:14 [wendy]
cmn: confidence is (likely going to be) one property that could be refined by datatype or by a collection of possible values.
16:53:53 [wendy]
saz: how to use confidence and/or precision? how is it derived? currently, open and arbitrary.
16:54:46 [wendy]
saz: what are the use cases? one is a tool that knows heuristics. perhaps create requirements from that.
16:54:50 [wendy]
ack c
16:54:50 [Zakim]
chaals, you wanted to agree and suggest that this is why we shouldn't make a second property that is currently arbitrary
16:55:01 [wendy]
cmn: agree and suggest that this is why we shouldn't make a second property that is currently arbitrary
16:55:08 [chaals]
action: chaals to find paper on modelling probability in RDF as an example of better approach.
16:55:27 [wendy]
cmn: agree that interoperability is the issue.
16:56:32 [wendy]
cmn: SWBPIG has published something about datatypes and other things that may be useful.
16:56:46 [chaals]
s/other things/n-ary relations/
16:57:34 [wendy]
http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-n-aryRelations/
16:57:47 [wendy]
http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-xsch-datatypes
16:57:52 [wendy]
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/
16:58:05 [wendy]
saz: remove high/med/low?
16:58:25 [wendy]
cmn: yes. maintain confidence for now since several people had use cases for confidence info.
16:58:34 [wendy]
s/maintain/however, maintain
17:01:47 [wendy]
saz: could wcag checkpoints be marked as auto/human test?
17:02:48 [wendy]
wac: tests certainly, but not checkpoints/success criteria since usually a combo of the 2. not sure how useful hi/med/low confidence levels be for tests since writing them for hi confidence on all. i.e., writing to be unambiguous, therefore we should have hi confidence that if people are knowledgeable they are going to get a good answer.
17:03:18 [wendy]
saz: hi/med/low is nice and simple. a scheme of how to flag test results would interoperable.
17:03:22 [wendy]
ack c
17:03:22 [Zakim]
chaals, you wanted to say it is simple, but has no obvious interoperability beyond trivial case (100% or 0% confidence
17:03:35 [wendy]
cmn: it is simple, but has no obvious interoperability beyond trivial case (100% or 0% confidence)
17:04:30 [wendy]
q+ to say confidence is in the evaluator or the test and less on the result
17:05:32 [wendy]
cmn: we're likely solving problems that we don't have.
17:05:39 [wendy]
saz: confidence in test description not result.
17:06:06 [wendy]
ack we
17:06:06 [Zakim]
wendy, you wanted to say confidence is in the evaluator or the test and less on the result
17:06:15 [wendy]
wac: confidence is in the evaluator or the test and less on the result
17:06:18 [JibberJim]
q+ to say confidence is something consumers have about a tester rather than a particular test
17:06:23 [JibberJim]
zakim, unmute Jim_Ley
17:06:23 [Zakim]
Jim_Ley should no longer be muted
17:06:30 [wendy]
ack jim
17:06:38 [wendy]
jl: confidence is something consumers have about a tester rather than a particular test
17:07:12 [JibberJim]
zakim, mute Jim_Ley
17:07:12 [Zakim]
Jim_Ley should now be muted
17:07:35 [chaals]
[the value in confidence is that there are examples where it is useful, just that particular confidence levels are beyond our current ability to describe usefully]
17:08:22 [Zakim]
-CarlosI
17:08:25 [Zakim]
-Shadi
17:08:32 [Zakim]
-Wendy
17:08:34 [Zakim]
-chaals
17:08:46 [Zakim]
-Jim_Ley
17:08:48 [Zakim]
WAI_ERTWG()12:00PM has ended
17:08:49 [Zakim]
Attendees were Shadi, Wendy, [IPcaller], chaals, Jim_Ley, CarlosI
17:08:50 [wendy]
RRSAgent, generate minutes
17:08:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/05/24-er-minutes.html wendy
17:09:14 [wendy]
RRSAgent, make log world
17:12:13 [chaals]
chaals has left #er
17:15:59 [shadi]
zakim, bye
17:15:59 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #er
17:16:03 [shadi]
rrsagent, bye
17:16:03 [RRSAgent]
I see 2 open action items:
17:16:03 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: chaals dig out how to require some non-earl property in the earl spec, using OWL [1]
17:16:03 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/05/24-er-irc#T16-38-08
17:16:03 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: chaals to find paper on modelling probability in RDF as an example of better approach. [2]
17:16:03 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/05/24-er-irc#T16-55-08