12:33:00 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #eo
12:33:00 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/05/20-eo-irc
12:33:02 <Zakim> +Henk
12:33:44 <shawn> zakim, aaaa is Ron_Armstrong
12:33:44 <Zakim> +Ron_Armstrong; got it
12:34:26 <Harvey> Harvey has joined #eo
12:34:51 <Zakim> +Carol
12:35:15 <Zakim> +Jack
12:35:32 <Andrew> zakim, who is here?
12:35:32 <Zakim> On the phone I see Doyle_Saylor, Ron_Armstrong, Sylvie_Duchateau (muted), Judy, ??P4, Bingham, ??P6, ??P7, ??P8, Shawn, Henk, Carol, Jack
12:35:34 <Zakim> On IRC I see Harvey, RRSAgent, Zakim, JackW, Wayne, Andrew, shawn, judy, pasquale, shadi
12:35:56 <shawn> present: Pasquale, Barry, Andrew, Carol, Jack, Ron, Wayne, Judy, Shawn, Henk, Doyle, Sylvie
12:36:09 <carol> carol has joined #eo
12:37:28 <shawn> Present+ Harvey
12:37:43 <shawn> meeting: EOWG
12:37:46 <shawn> chair: Judy
12:38:28 <Zakim> +Shadi
12:39:32 <shawn> scribe: Wayne
12:40:04 <shawn> present+ Shadi
12:40:21 <Zakim> +Helle_Bjarno
12:40:30 <shawn> present+ Helle
12:41:09 <Wayne> Topic Outreach
12:41:30 <Helle> Helle has joined #eo
12:41:36 <shawn> aegnda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2005AprJun/0084.html
12:41:37 <Wayne> There was no activity this week.
12:43:36 <Wayne> Topic Introduction
12:45:45 <achuter> achuter has joined #eo
12:47:01 <Helle> zakim, please mute me
12:47:01 <Zakim> Helle_Bjarno should now be muted
12:47:05 <Justin> Justin has joined #eo
12:48:54 <Wayne> Topic: Outreach
12:49:02 <Wayne> Topic: Introduction
12:49:51 <Zakim> +Loughborough
12:50:09 <Zakim> -Loughborough
12:50:55 <Zakim> +??P14
12:50:56 <Zakim> +Loughborough
12:51:11 <Wayne> Topic: (changed from agenda order) Lexicon
12:51:40 <Justin> zakim, ??P14 is Justin
12:51:40 <Zakim> +Justin; got it
12:51:46 <Justin> zakim, please mute me
12:51:46 <Zakim> Justin should now be muted
12:52:29 <Zakim> +Alan
12:53:23 <Helle> zakim, please unmute me
12:53:23 <Zakim> Helle_Bjarno should no longer be muted
12:55:54 <Wayne> Henk: Sent around updated version of Lexicon final words.  There are four choices of two definitions that are not agreed upon.
12:56:17 <pasquale> i prefer a)
12:56:39 <JackW> I prefer A as well
12:56:51 <Wayne> First word Assistive Technology (a) More detail (b) less detail --- (a) wins the vote.
12:57:42 <achuter> zakim, mute me
12:57:42 <Zakim> sorry, achuter, I do not see a party named 'achuter'
12:57:44 <Zakim> -Loughborough
12:58:06 <pasquale> informative: i prefer a)
12:58:53 <Andrew> I vote for three  times a)
12:59:52 <Wayne> Informative: (a)  , (b) starts with describing... (a)
13:00:18 <pasquale> non-normative: i prefer a)
13:01:16 <shawn> Present+ Alan, Justin
13:02:11 <Helle> zakim, please mute me
13:02:11 <Zakim> Helle_Bjarno should now be muted
13:02:51 <Wayne> For non-normative and normative ... (a) without the describing
13:03:21 <pasquale> normative. vote for a)
13:03:42 <shawn> ack shawn
13:06:55 <Wayne> Shawn Proposed and it was approved that the Lexicon be mailed around for a 48 hour last time comment.
13:07:24 <shawn> action: shawn & henk coordinate on getting final version in latest format and email list for "last call"
13:08:18 <Wayne> Judy: The Lexicon will hold off on extending the lexicon so that EO can pesue other priorities
13:09:30 <shawn> jb: any closing comments on Lexicon
13:09:31 <Wayne> Shawn: Will send around the Lex to other interested working groups
13:09:37 <shawn> harvey: whoopie
13:09:38 <shawn> :)
13:09:39 <Wayne> Harvey: Woopy
13:09:49 <mcmullin> mcmullin has joined #eo
13:10:28 <Wayne> Topic: Retrofitting
13:10:40 <mcmullin> Hi shawn - finally back in the real world...
13:12:42 <Wayne> Judy:  Introduced the Retrofitting Document and identifed basic isues
13:14:21 <Wayne> Shadi:  We need to do scoping and identify the audience.  Where does this fit in the EO documents.  Higher leve approach: what to consider; Should we target developers?
13:15:39 <Wayne> Judy:  Look at the requirements section, do we have the audience?
13:16:35 <Wayne> Jack:  The audiences are correct, but the title doesn't match
13:16:58 <Wayne> Henk and Andrew: Agree
13:17:25 <shawn> suggestion: Developing a Plan to Retrofit...
13:18:00 <shawn> aa: title implies that we're going to be told how to do it, rather than things to think about when we need to do it
13:19:38 <Wayne> Shadi:  If we go down the direction for "Developing a Plan for Retrofitting".  Where would we fit it.
13:19:51 <Justin> I agree...by repeating everyone will get the message.
13:20:20 <Wayne> Andrew:  Repeating information may  anoy a few users, but will ensure that it can be found.
13:20:56 <Wayne> Andrew:  There is little overlapping.
13:21:59 <Wayne> Judy: the draft will change so we should be asking about what do we need that fills gaps in existing documents?
13:22:24 <shawn> zakim, who's making noise?
13:22:37 <Zakim> shawn, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Judy (90%), ??P4 (17%)
13:23:19 <Wayne> Judy: Is planning enough; do we need to say how to?  That is a controvercial question.
13:24:17 <Wayne> Andrew:  Address the complaint "where do we start", "are some check points more important", people need a guide through the path. 
13:25:23 <Wayne> Jack:  That is in line with concerns at Boeing.  We have a lot of pages, but willingness is overwhelmed by the size of the task.  People need to know what to do, details...
13:26:18 <Wayne> Genreal agreement with Andrew and Jack's  comments.
13:27:29 <Wayne> Judy:  Formalize "Now what do we do"  to "Next Steps"
13:29:09 <Justin> zakim, please unmute me
13:29:09 <Zakim> Justin should no longer be muted
13:29:47 <achuter> Suggestion: the road ahead; towards an accessible web site; the way forward...
13:29:56 <Wayne> Carol:  Has done this and the steps were similar but not so formal.
13:30:47 <Zakim> -??P7
13:31:15 <Andrew> minuting
13:31:25 <Andrew> \nick wayne
13:31:34 <Zakim> -Carol
13:32:11 <judy> wayne, can you drop off irc please?
13:32:19 <Zakim> -Alan
13:32:46 <shawn> scribe: Andrew
13:33:57 <shawn> FOR THE RECORD: Andrew changed nick to Wayne in order to maintain scribe notation in minute generator :)
13:34:42 <shawn> scribe: Wayne
13:35:27 <Wayne> JB: "audience" discussion - primary/secondary
13:36:34 <Wayne> Barry: Q - not clear from change log, waht is the definitive diferfence between this doc and others?
13:37:39 <Wayne> JB: v.different from Implementation Planning - it was much broader, this could be much more focussed on a particular step
13:39:14 <Wayne> JB: 'policies' section could be dropeed as covevred in detail, but overall should be sharper for retrofitting
13:39:39 <Wayne> Barry: if it is going to get "down and dirty" then audience should be flipped
13:40:38 <Zakim> +Henk.a
13:40:46 <Wayne> Shadi: doc is somewhere inbetween Implementation Planning and "how to fix code"
13:41:12 <Wayne> Shadi: a collection of strategies and steps on how to tackle the task
13:42:38 <Wayne> Shadi: JT: managers make the decisions - what/how much effort/what do we want to acomplish
13:43:18 <Helle> zakim, please unmute me
13:43:18 <Zakim> Helle_Bjarno should no longer be muted
13:43:23 <Wayne> AA: agrees with JT
13:43:56 <Wayne> Helle: agree that we need to approach the higher level initially
13:44:16 <Wayne> Shadi: how high a level?
13:44:50 <Wayne> Helle: important to target the funders and decision makers rather than the coders
13:45:54 <Wayne> Helle: Q - when would you read this? After an eveluation tells you there is a problem with your site?
13:46:28 <shawn> q+ to suggest adding to requirements when we expect people to read this document (like Helle just said)
13:46:29 <Wayne> JB: certainly this is one scenario - how to orient yourself after an evaluation has been conducted, or complaints made
13:47:32 <Wayne> Pasquale: this should be for decision makers. We have an implementaio planning suite for when we start to develop a web site - this is for an existing site that needs fixing
13:48:13 <Wayne> Pasquale: can re just call it "accessibility updates"
13:48:33 <Wayne> Henk: what about "upgrading your web site for accessibility"
13:49:04 <shawn> q+ to say yes with redesign!
13:49:27 <Helle> zakim, please mute me
13:49:27 <Zakim> Helle_Bjarno should now be muted
13:49:50 <Wayne> JB: gets phone calls caknowledging they have accessibility problems, but wanting guidance on where to start
13:50:55 <shawn> ack me
13:50:55 <Zakim> shawn, you wanted to suggest adding to requirements when we expect people to read this document (like Helle just said) and to say yes with redesign!
13:51:26 <Wayne> SLH: documents more discioverable with site redesign - definitely
13:51:45 <Helle> zakim, please unmute me
13:51:45 <Zakim> Helle_Bjarno should no longer be muted
13:52:07 <Wayne> SLH: discussion is helpful - expand requirements to say when we expect people to use the document
13:53:23 <Wayne> Helle: what about adding in some FAQs - we all get these type of questions
13:54:11 <Wayne> JB: FAQ idea - can we explore? What are some of the questions?
13:55:18 <Wayne> Henk: they do not ask is what is the code solution - trust their developers to do this - want guidance on where to start & right procedure
13:55:50 <Wayne> Henk: not which part to start with, but more about procedure
13:56:26 <Wayne> Helle: more concrete - what is the most important thing to do - eg title VS alt attributes
13:58:23 <Wayne> XX: are there a few things that would have a big impact
13:58:37 <shadi> s/XX/SAZ
13:59:59 <shawn> Q?
14:00:00 <Wayne> AA: how to preioritise depends often on contwext as well as WCAG priority levels
14:00:25 <Wayne> Shadi: and also on what can be done site-wide with the CMS
14:01:00 <Wayne> Justin: get asked: how much will it affect the visual look of the page?
14:01:46 <Wayne> general agreement
14:02:46 <Wayne> Barry: Q - "how do we get MS Word to genrate accessibility HTML" - have to break the [bad] news gently
14:03:37 <Wayne> Barry: also get - "we don't have an PWD using the site" - so suggest a dedicated feedback chanel to get feedback on specific barriers
14:03:51 <shawn> good point
14:03:52 <Wayne> AA: we also suggest this
14:04:37 <Wayne> JB: yes - capture this for suggested process
14:05:27 <Wayne> JB: tools - "selecting" has discussion on work-arounds, but without specific recomendations - should cross-ref this
14:06:06 <Wayne> JB: should also link to Bus Case as motivator for feedback channel
14:06:44 <Wayne> JB: look again at draft requirements (http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/retrofit/retrofitting-changelog.html)
14:06:52 <Justin> Justin has left #eo
14:07:03 <Justin> Justin has joined #eo
14:07:16 <Wayne> JB: any specific reactions to 'approach' section?
14:08:10 <Wayne> JB: could we use the questions we have just brainstaormed as practical approach, ratehr than the role, etc approach
14:08:46 <Wayne> AA: likes the practical appraoch sugegstion from Helle & JB 
14:08:57 <Justin> zakim, please mute me
14:08:57 <Zakim> Justin should now be muted
14:09:10 <Wayne> Pasqale: "practical" is the right approach
14:11:02 <Wayne> Shadi: helpful discussion to guide re-write
14:11:29 <Wayne> JB: audience clarity - needs more discussion?
14:12:03 <Wayne> JB: sure - managers are important, but often develoeprs get handed the task
14:12:34 <Wayne> SLH: large org VS small org (managers VS developers)
14:13:37 <Wayne> SLH: if doc is how to decide what to do, then bottom line is that job title doesn't matter, it is what role you have
14:17:23 <Wayne> AA: if you got caught out (by not building in from he start), then this is an approach to make some amends
14:18:37 <Wayne> JB: any wrap up thoughts on audience?
14:19:27 <Justin> sounds good
14:20:08 <Wayne> Shadi: will bring revised descriptions back to EO
14:20:44 <Wayne> JB: anything that jumps out from Shadi's draft (http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/retrofit/)?
14:21:33 <Wayne> people seem hapy to wait until next time
14:22:12 <Wayne> JB: comments on overlap with other docs?
14:22:51 <Wayne> JB: should it be a side-step from "implementation plan"
14:23:18 <Wayne> Henk: it is a specific subset of the "implementation plan"
14:23:40 <Wayne> Pasquale: agrees with Henk - as do others
14:24:05 <Wayne> Helle: also fits with "Evaluation Suite"?
14:24:16 <Wayne> Henk: it is the next step/phase
14:26:43 <Wayne> JB: will IA for new site accommodate these relationships?
14:27:17 <Wayne> SLH: most probably - can draft for next meeting in site map
14:27:27 <Helle> I have to quit regrets for next meeting June 3
14:27:35 <Zakim> -Helle_Bjarno
14:28:15 <Wayne> Topic: June meeting schedule
14:28:35 <Wayne> no meeting 27th May, but all through June
14:29:13 <shawn> rrsagent, make logs world
14:29:14 <Wayne> Meeting closed
14:29:16 <Zakim> -Doyle_Saylor
14:29:17 <Zakim> -Shadi
14:29:20 <Zakim> -??P8
14:29:21 <Zakim> -Bingham
14:29:23 <Zakim> -Jack
14:29:24 <Zakim> -Sylvie_Duchateau
14:29:25 <Zakim> -Judy
14:29:26 <Zakim> -Henk.a
14:29:27 <Zakim> -Shawn
14:29:30 <Zakim> -Justin
14:29:32 <Zakim> -??P4
14:29:33 <Zakim> -Ron_Armstrong
14:29:35 <Zakim> -??P6
14:31:47 <Wayne> Shawn, can you pass the IRC log along to Wayne?
14:33:24 <shawn> zakim, bye
14:33:24 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Doyle_Saylor, +1.714.649.aaaa, Sylvie_Duchateau, Judy, Bingham, Shawn, Henk, Ron_Armstrong, Carol, Jack, Shadi, Helle_Bjarno,
14:33:24 <Zakim> Zakim has left #eo
14:33:27 <shawn> yes. will do
14:33:27 <Zakim> ... Loughborough, Justin, Alan
14:33:37 <shawn> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:33:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/05/20-eo-minutes.html shawn
14:35:33 <pasquale> hi all, have a good week end
14:38:44 <judy> judy has left #eo
14:39:00 <Justin> Justin has left #eo
14:39:47 <shawn> shawn has left #eo
16:38:57 <shadi> rrsagent, bye
16:38:57 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item:
16:38:57 <RRSAgent> ACTION: shawn & henk coordinate on getting final version in latest format and email list for "last call" [1]
16:38:57 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/05/20-eo-irc#T13-07-24