18:01:11 RRSAgent has joined #ua 18:01:11 logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/05/05-ua-irc 18:01:15 rrsagent, make log world 18:01:31 JRG has joined #UA 18:01:42 Hi Cathy 18:02:35 +??P0 18:02:42 +Peter_Korn 18:04:07 scribe: cklaws 18:04:20 Meeting: UAWG telecon, 5 May 2005 18:04:34 Discussion about meeting with Sun Beijing. Postpone Mondya meeting. 18:04:35 +DPoehlman 18:06:02 Topic: Implementation reports 18:06:37 jg: Discouraged. Not a core of people interested. Should we keep doing this. 18:09:08 ckl: Reports are good for a design point. But time-consuming to fill out after a product is released. 18:09:22 pk: Been helpful for Sun Beijing. 18:10:23 jg: Not a lot of feedback on what tests are missing or what do not address the guidelines. 18:11:01 pk: Focus is on opportunities in accessibility. Like Safari and even more so the whole desktop. 18:11:30 jg: Safari doesn't seem to be interested, so why should we do it for them? 18:12:29 jg" We're not getting progress. If Apple and MS, not looking at it what are they looking at? 18:13:10 pk: I'm sure Sun Bejing Mozilla tests relied on this. 18:15:48 dp: I got the impression test suites were not ready. JAWS has grown so much it is difficult to determine how it does fit in with UAAG. Trying to figure that out. Test suite is good idea and worth pursuing. Apple does have W3C contact. Transformation with XHTML 2. 18:16:06 mm: I've spoken with the W3C reps at Apple. 18:16:28 jg: But still no one shows up to work with group. 18:17:11 mm: Apple says VoiceOver will fix it, but I play with it and it doesn't fix it. So now we can go back to them. 18:17:30 jg: Do you tell them which tests don't work? 18:17:55 mm: I walked product manager through entire evaluation. I have new version so I can do it again. 18:18:36 dp: Now that Tiger is out I want to review it again with Safari. But it is first run out of the box. They need specifics. 18:19:05 mm: Kurt Knight Safari product manager at Apple. 18:20:21 jg: I haven't done anything to update test suites even though Cathy reported bugs. Also how we are marketing this to people. Where are we in hierarchy? 18:21:35 cl: IBM looks at WCAG first and then WCAG looks at UAAG for HPR, JAWS, and Window Eyes. From Web developer perspective. 18:21:50 jg: How do we motivate people to work on test suites. 18:23:13 pk: The Web is only one application for most ATs to work with - there's a lot of other apps, too. People will contribute to specs and then go off and make their apps compliant. 18:26:26 jg: Never enough resources. Then they wonder why do we have to be accessible if they are not. Ideally we should have several people work on evaluations. To give more credibility. Not necessarily developers. 18:27:10 cl: Usually architects and designers from IBM on standards committees, not testers or even the developers. 18:28:36 jg: So who do we go to? Do NFB, AFB, and other groups like that have resources? What relationship does WAI have with these? 18:29:34 mm: We have a relationship with them, but they have different political directions and they don't want their resources tied up with W3C. 18:30:00 dp: Alot goes in but not much comes out. 18:31:41 dp: People more interested in solving the Web authoring problem. Either JAWS or doing something wrong or the Web author. They never blame IE. There's players out there, but they don't connect it with the work we've done. 18:32:23 jg: Even within WAI, huge buy in for WCAG. They have tons more members than we do. 18:32:40 +Jim_Allan 18:33:02 mm/cl: Fewer user agent developers than Web developers 18:35:02 jg: Need to find resources. Either within WAI or somewhere. Maybe need to look for a professional. Gaps when he couldn't work due to administration. I'll try to bring to Judy's attention. It looks like the only way is to hire someone. Where do we get the money? Any alternatives? 18:35:09 pk: Seems reasonable. 18:35:47 jg: Some resources valuable to developers. 18:36:05 jma has joined #ua 18:36:18 We're suppose to work on SVG and SMIL but we're still working on HTML. 18:36:45 ja: We said we would work with the SVG group. We don't have the skills in this group. 18:37:49 jg: I haven't heard grom SVG group. Matt, have they published something? Any test suites? 18:38:13 mm: Test suites are required for candidate recommendation. 18:38:45 jg: We need to review the SVG document and accessibility section. But it was in appendix and not much. 18:38:57 mm: PF is talking about that model. Last call May 20. 18:39:47 jg: Nice for UAAG to see PF comments before going to SVG. Action: Jon contact SVG chair on development of test suites. 18:40:24 jg: DHTML Roadmap 18:40:52 jg: Sample pages link http://www.rehab.uiuc.edu/ita/dwatt/accessext/accessibilityext.xpi 18:42:47 jg: links-1 and links: The links at beginning of page had a title. Original design of role is on container. So I needed to put IDs on containers and containers had roles. Label for container. Or maybe could be header 18:43:38 jg: XHTML 2.0 will have role attributes on containers instead of IDs. 18:45:06 jg: Hoping we can do some more work with IBM's sample at U of I. If roadmap adopted, it may require UAAG modifications. 18:47:24 jg: Might be other modifications since we have a lot of implementation experience now. Certain DOM features - I think guidelines 6 - where we talk of accessibility apis. 18:49:42 cl: We're working with AT vendors to implement the DHTML roadmap, but not HPR at this time. 18:51:06 dp: Safari's tricks with VoiceOver - hard to find sometimes. Not obvious right away. I may write some of it up. 18:51:26 jg: Interested in implementation report, David? 18:51:49 dp: Yes, I would look at Safari and VoiceOver, maybe with Matt. 18:52:14 Next meeting May 19. 18:52:48 jg: More keyboard features avilable, then we'll schedule meeting. 18:52:50 -Peter_Korn 18:52:52 -??P0 18:52:53 -Matt 18:52:55 -Jim_Allan 18:52:56 -[IBM] 18:52:57 -DPoehlman 18:52:58 WAI_UAWG()2:00PM has ended 18:53:00 Attendees were [IBM], Matt, Peter_Korn, DPoehlman, Jim_Allan 18:53:11 jma has left #ua 18:56:42 rrsagent, draft minutes 18:56:42 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/05/05-ua-minutes.html mcmay 20:16:02 Zakim has left #ua 20:24:47 rrsagent, bye 20:24:47 I see no action items