IRC log of wai-wcag on 2005-04-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:59:48 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag

13:59:48 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/04/20-wai-wcag-irc

13:59:55 [ben]

RRSAgent, make log world

14:00:21 [ben]

Topic: WCAG Techniques Weekly Meeting

14:00:27 [ben]

agenda+ Categories of Scripting Techniques from Becky (30 min.)

14:00:33 [mcmay]

mcmay has joined #wai-wcag

14:00:39 [ben]

agenda+ Work plan and processing techniques and test suite issues (30 min.)

14:00:48 [ben]

agenda+ Update on issues with <object> and discussions of using <link> for navigation (15 min.)

14:00:57 [ben]

agenda+ Guide Doc and structure (15 min.)

14:01:18 [mcmay]

zakim, call matt-bos

14:01:18 [Zakim]

ok, mcmay; the call is being made

14:01:19 [Zakim]

WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has now started

14:01:21 [Zakim]

+Matt

14:01:25 [jslatin]

that should keep us off the streets and out of trouble for a couple hours

14:01:27 [Becky_Gibson]

Becky_Gibson has joined #wai-wcag

14:01:41 [ChristopheStrobbe]

ChristopheStrobbe has joined #wai-wcag

14:01:50 [wendy]

wendy has joined #wai-wcag

14:02:03 [Zakim]

+Wendy

14:02:10 [Zakim]

+Becky_Gibson

14:02:13 [Zakim]

+??P17

14:02:17 [ben]

zakim, ??P17 is Ben

14:02:17 [Zakim]

+Ben; got it

14:02:23 [wendy]

zakim, who's on the phone?

14:02:23 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Matt, Wendy, Becky_Gibson, Ben

14:02:30 [Zakim]

+Christophe_Strobe

14:02:34 [jslatin]

zakim's giving me a hard time, hang on...

14:02:48 [wendy]

agenda?

14:02:58 [Zakim]

+John_Slatin

14:04:14 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

14:04:17 [Michael]

zakim, ipcaller is Michael_Cooper

14:04:17 [Zakim]

+Michael_Cooper; got it

14:04:28 [ben]

scribe: Ben

14:04:56 [wendy]

zakim, take up item 1

14:04:56 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "Categories of Scripting Techniques from Becky (30 min.)" taken up [from ben]

14:05:04 [Zakim]

+Tim_Boland

14:05:30 [ben]

bg: from baseline discussion, how do we organize techs. to provide baseline info?

14:05:30 [wendy]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0153.html

14:05:46 [Tim]

Tim has joined #wai-wcag

14:05:59 [ben]

bg: wanted to come up with a list of techniques for diff. categories, one of them was for no script at all

14:06:08 [Zakim]

+Dave_MacDonald

14:07:24 [ben]

(techs that worked with or without scripting). Now that we're removing requirement for alternatives to script, we needed a category for scripts that improve the accessibility of the site without harming access.

14:07:46 [David_]

David_ has joined #wai-wcag

14:07:49 [David_]

test

14:07:54 [ben]

third category was if you are using script in your baseline, then here's how to do it so it meets UAAG and is directly accessible

14:08:01 [ben]

bg: do these categories make sense?

14:08:38 [ben]

Jim Ley posted some comments to list in response to proposed techniques. We also need to work on mapping for most of these techniques.

14:09:16 [ben]

wc: am wondering how we explain this to people in a document that isn't normative - need to be careful about creating techniques that are more restrictive than guidelines

14:10:00 [ben]

js: seems to me that if we have a req. like 2.1 (make interface elements keyboard operable), then there are diff. techs for doing that depending on what you're doing. (if your assuming script or not)

14:10:10 [ben]

s/your/you're/

14:10:47 [Tim]

Have script techniques been designed with testability in mind?

14:10:53 [ben]

js: important to map these back to GL and SC so we can say that techniques are for satisfying something in the guidelines and which technique you choose will depend on baseline assumption

14:11:28 [ben]

bg: maybe some of these are best practices and could live in another doc

14:11:51 [ben]

mc: I would say the first and third categories are needed for WCAG, some of the second category might not be

14:12:50 [ben]

js: is that because 2nd category is things that can be done to improve accessibility where first is things that work in the absence of scripting and third is if scripts are used, making them accessible? (so middle category becomes optional)?

14:13:07 [ben]

bg: I viewed it as third category as more optional, but didn't think those mapped to GL as well

14:13:36 [ben]

dm: have we decided that we're only going to map back to SC, not to guidelines?

14:13:41 [ben]

js: think we have to map to SC

14:14:12 [ben]

wc: interesting question that's come up before. GL usually is the "sprit" of something and SC is more specific. Question is whether we can map to the more general things.

14:14:22 [ben]

js: think those come under category of advisory techniqeus

14:14:35 [ben]

s/techniqeus/techniques/

14:14:53 [ben]

dm: would have to add a bunch of SC to include techniques

14:16:00 [ben]

wc: seems to me that application/widget related techniques map back to basic set of SC, which are they need a label (1.1), keyboard access (2.1), and role and state info depending on what the widget does. Is anything else missing? 4.2 group is working on role and state.

14:16:48 [ben]

bg: I also found that a fair number mapped to 2.4 (ex. using onload to set focus to a form element on a page). Some issues with this came up on the list, but technique can be helpful.

14:17:15 [ben]

js: also an issue with phone number focus issue

14:17:26 [ben]

bg: yes, some like that, some hate it...

14:18:36 [ben]

bg: 2.4 L2 SC2 is where I mapped it, thought about 2.5 because it generally applies to errors, but couldn't find a SC that actually maps

14:19:00 [ben]

wc: is next step to do more work on these techniques?

14:19:25 [ben]

bg: need feedback about this direction, guess my next action item would be to propose a guideline mapping for each of these

14:19:39 [ben]

bg: need feedback to know if these are the right types of techniques

14:20:41 [ben]

js: for me, I don't know enough scripting to be able to give good feedback on details, but outline seems right to me and I liked what wendy said about where SC might be - may all map to 1.1, 2.1 and whatever emerges from 4.2 work and maybe also to some other things like 2.4.

14:22:05 [ben]

wc: think I'm close to proposing that 1.1 require at least a label so you know that "within this window, this is what this is" ... widgets need labels

14:22:47 [ben]

wc: also an idea of grouping things into a unit that is functional (ex. date selector widget in Flickr)

14:23:35 [ben]

wc: another thing is that Derek Featherstone is doing a session on accessible javascripting in Austin, might be good to ask him to give us some feedback.

14:24:55 [ben]

action becky: propose guideline mapping

14:25:18 [ben]

action wendy: send email to Derek and Becky for feedback

14:25:52 [ben]

js: one piece of feedback on guide doc was links to tutorials and articles

14:26:37 [ben]

wc: part of what I heard you saying becky was that we don't need to rewrite these things because they already exist. can we link to external resources and annotate instead of recreating other work

14:26:52 [ben]

bg: think that's a good idea, wasn't sure if we could do that and what to do about permissions

14:27:28 [ben]

wc: good question, other question is (from W3C process) do we really want to rely on something that might change.

14:28:29 [ben]

js: but part of the reason we want techs. to be non-normative is that we can rely on other things and repair links over time and update them. another strategy is to include "date retrieved" info with links to external resources

14:29:07 [ben]

wc: tim asked about testability - I'd like to see techniques and test suites developed together, needs development

14:29:44 [wendy]

zakim, close this item

14:29:44 [Zakim]

agendum 1 closed

14:29:46 [Zakim]

I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

14:29:47 [Zakim]

2. Work plan and processing techniques and test suite issues (30 min.) [from ben]

14:29:51 [wendy]

zakim, take up item 2

14:29:51 [Zakim]

agendum 2. "Work plan and processing techniques and test suite issues (30 min.)" taken up [from ben]

14:29:58 [ChristopheStrobbe]

zakim, Christophe_Strobe is ChristopheStrobbe

14:29:58 [Zakim]

+ChristopheStrobbe; got it

14:30:06 [ben]

scribe: Michael

14:30:26 [wendy]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0156.html

14:30:54 [Michael]

wc: plan to staggar work based on what guidelines doing

14:31:13 [Michael]

wc: concern how much we can do in a given week, given how many techniques some guidelines will have

14:31:33 [Michael]

wc: hopefully most work is tweaking, though some technique generation will come up

14:32:11 [Michael]

wc: next FtF week of June 13 in Europe, still working on venue

14:33:07 [Michael]

wc: Monday town hall, Tue / Wed Techniques, Thur / Fri GL

14:33:16 [Michael]

wc: close all Bugzilla issues in June

14:34:12 [Michael]

js: what has to change about how TTF works to meet objectives?

14:34:49 [Michael]

wc: recently more work has been done as proposals, by Mon for Wed call and by Tue for Thur call

14:34:59 [Michael]

wc: look for increase in proposals so calls can just review

14:35:30 [Michael]

wc: 2 week process, harvest issues in first week (re Techniques & test cases for HTML, CSS, Script), tweak and close second week

14:35:56 [Michael]

wc: need to close A) requirements and B) testing matrix

14:36:39 [Michael]

js: held off on requirements until we had clearer sense of where we were going with guide doc and structure

14:36:55 [Michael]

mc: also had open action items

14:38:07 [Michael]

js: nervous because work on guide doc prototypes noted it took longer than anticpated, may have been new format but may have been tougher task than anticipated

14:38:11 [Michael]

js: was it in the plan?

14:38:25 [Michael]

wc: idea was guide doc would be wrapped up in issue summaries

14:38:55 [Michael]

wc: package guidelines and guide doc as one task type, and techniques and test cases as another task type

14:39:03 [Michael]

js: but does add to time so we need to factor it into plan

14:39:24 [Michael]

wc: first week can be identifying issues, and clarifies issues for guide doc which can be part of second week

14:39:34 [Michael]

js: questions also become part of agenda for guide doc

14:40:10 [Michael]

js: writing "intent" section has been very useful - if I can't state intent, can't expect anyone else to understand it

14:40:31 [Michael]

wc: most of issues with GL 1 related to clarifications for guide doc

14:40:55 [Michael]

wc: modify placeholders to have at least intent and example

14:40:58 [Michael]

js: and definitions

14:41:53 [wendy]

action: john and wendy in future discussions with ppl doing guidelines summaries, draft some of the guide doc content (intent, definitions (clean up if needed or pull in from glossary), examples - minimum)

14:42:16 [Michael]

wc: also need to figure out who is available when so we can schedule around power outages

14:43:20 [Michael]

wc: for next week need to sort out what techniques relate to guideline 1.1 under discussion

14:43:48 [wendy]

action: wendy and michael determine set of techniques and test cases for discussion for the next few weeks (1.3, 2.4, 4.2, 1.1)

14:44:44 [Michael]

js: develop "assignment template" so when people assigned a guideline to review, they know what sort of stuff they need to produce

14:45:25 [wendy]

action: john draft "assignment templates" by Monday 25 April

14:45:46 [wendy]

zakim, close this item

14:45:46 [Zakim]

agendum 2 closed

14:45:47 [Zakim]

I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

14:45:49 [Zakim]

3. Update on issues with <object> and discussions of using <link> for navigation (15 min.) [from ben]

14:45:58 [wendy]

zakim, take up item 3

14:45:58 [Zakim]

agendum 3. "Update on issues with <object> and discussions of using <link> for navigation (15 min.)" taken up [from ben]

14:46:37 [Michael]

js: action to follow up on our discussion of problems with <object> and challenge of explict, useful, text alternatives

14:47:16 [Michael]

js: message to CG list with example and query

14:47:33 [Michael]

js: Al Gilman response was that he would respond

14:47:46 [Michael]

js: John Gunderson said "just create a link"

14:47:48 [Michael]

dmd: d-link

14:48:05 [Michael]

js: philosophical discussion about longdesc

14:48:20 [Michael]

js: sounds like repair technique, not ultimately desirable

14:48:26 [Michael]

bc: UAAG needs to be fixed to address

14:49:09 [Michael]

js: Gregg suggested definition for "explicitly associated" that permits explicit text reference within same page

14:49:54 [Michael]

bc: e.g., alt text of image says "description below"

14:50:39 [Michael]

js: IMS site has a potential technique

14:51:59 [Michael]

link in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0171.html

14:53:22 [Michael]

js: re DHTML roadmap, discussion of making XHTML 2.0 features available in earlier versions of HTML, by using <link> and custom values e.g., rel="navigation" targeting id'd stuff on page

14:53:33 [wendy]

summary of discussion from last week re: link/nav technique: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2005Apr/0015.html

14:54:20 [Michael]

js: various parties working on the navigation challenge, and global vs. secondary nav

14:54:55 [Michael]

wc: were our concerns raised to CG?

14:55:07 [Michael]

js: not all

14:55:24 [Michael]

js: haven't heard anything deeply problematic

14:55:34 [Michael]

bg: user agents will have to make changes to support all this

14:56:15 [Michael]

js: UIUC accessibility extension might take some of that

14:56:48 [Michael]

js: actual behaviour still undetermined

14:57:17 [ben]

q+

14:57:33 [Michael]

dmd: unclear if roadmap is present day or future

14:57:44 [Michael]

js: it's a road map to get us somewhere we aren't now

14:58:41 [Michael]

js: starts with XHTML 2.0 functionality, works backwards to find ways to incorporate that functionality in earlier versions of HTML back to 4.01, but it's not all fully working yet

14:59:40 [Michael]

js: question of recommending techniques that work today and not tomorrow and vice versa

14:59:54 [Michael]

dmd: what's timeline wrt WCAG 2?

15:00:30 [Michael]

bg: working to make sure WCAG 2 doesn't handcuff steps of roadmap

15:01:56 [Michael]

js: if UA builds automatic toc, how does it know what to call it? need a technique e.g., a title on list

15:02:30 [Michael]

js: no UA support for this now but wouldn't cost much to developers to do

15:03:28 [wendy]

ack ben

15:03:52 [Michael]

bc: is "role" going to be required in valid XHTML 2?

15:04:21 [Michael]

bc: will backward-walking techniques be part of sufficient / necessary for WCAG 2, or just advisory?

15:04:36 [Michael]

js: more advisory for now

15:05:34 [Michael]

bg: don't know if role for navigation is required

15:05:41 [Michael]

bc: if it is GL 4.1 could kick in

15:06:13 [Michael]

bg: roadmap steps in particular not required, but have to check for endpoint

15:06:43 [Michael]

wc: don't see "role" in XHTML 2 draft, but no draft since 2004

15:06:48 [Michael]

js: they've hit a wall

15:07:11 [wendy]

action: becky investigate if role for nav will be required in XHTMl 2

15:08:25 [Michael]

mc: connection to dmd test file work?

15:08:38 [Michael]

js: some of that discussion was what went to CG

15:08:53 [Michael]

dmd: big issue of what spec understands as alt vs. what we do

15:08:57 [Michael]

js: that's why it was a CG issue

15:09:29 [Michael]

wc: all of this is related go GL 1.1, so it's all good timing

15:10:25 [Michael]

js: bg had mentioned getting UA to look inside <object> for text alternatives, but CG didn't pick that up

15:11:05 [Michael]

bc: best model is there is a way in UA for user to query the object for "what's there" and "give it to me if I want it"

15:11:59 [Michael]

mcm: world-dominant browser doesn't even allow that right now

15:12:27 [wendy]

zakim, close this item

15:12:28 [Zakim]

agendum 3 closed

15:12:28 [Zakim]

I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:

15:12:30 [Zakim]

4. Guide Doc and structure (15 min.) [from ben]

15:12:41 [wendy]

zakim, take up item 4

15:12:41 [Zakim]

agendum 4. "Guide Doc and structure (15 min.) " taken up [from ben]

15:13:06 [wendy]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0121.html

15:13:12 [wendy]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0142.html

15:13:13 [Michael]

js: discussion on guide doc last thur mainly involved people who had been drafting, so they pulled aside

15:14:29 [Michael]

js: high-level structure is 1: guidelines 2: guide doc 3: techniques, possibility including general techniques 4: checklists 5: test cases

15:15:37 [Michael]

js: people with various needs should be able to come in at the right point to meet their needs

15:15:47 [Michael]

js: that's a separate conceptual problem from that of structure

15:16:12 [Michael]

js: we can satisfy 2.4 to provide different ways to navigate

15:17:04 [Michael]

js: for guide doc, we each took different approach in prototypes, that group needs to converge and get the best

15:17:14 [Michael]

js: return with more drafts and a template so people with assignments can complete

15:18:21 [Michael]

js: feedback on bare outline was most confusing areas were "technology-independent techniques", not solved by calling "general techniques"

15:18:33 [Michael]

js: either had no idea what to find or expected code examples

15:18:52 [Michael]

js: so need a better lable

15:19:02 [Michael]

s/lable/label

15:19:29 [Michael]

js: thought "understanding this sc" section redundant with "benefits"

15:19:46 [Michael]

js: found useful exercise to write sentences beginning with "the intent of this sc is..."

15:20:24 [Michael]

js: get guide doc task force (GDTF) to do next round, then send around to reveiwers again

15:20:43 [wendy]

action: john send msg to "guide doc task force" (michael, ben, wendy, john) and restart/finish guide doc work

15:21:38 [wendy]

note: this isn't a formal task force....just short hand to identify those folks who were working on guide doc.

15:21:49 [wendy]

action 7= john send msg to "guide doc task force" (michael, ben, wendy, john, david) and restart/finish guide doc work

15:22:21 [wendy]

:)

15:23:10 [Zakim]

-Tim_Boland

15:23:12 [Michael]

adjourned

15:23:13 [Zakim]

-Matt

15:23:14 [Zakim]

-Becky_Gibson

15:23:15 [Zakim]

-Wendy

15:23:17 [Zakim]

-John_Slatin

15:23:19 [Zakim]

-Dave_MacDonald

15:23:20 [Zakim]

-Ben

15:23:21 [Zakim]

-ChristopheStrobbe

15:23:22 [Zakim]

-Michael_Cooper

15:23:23 [wendy]

ben and michael - thanks for scribing!

15:23:24 [Zakim]

WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended

15:23:25 [Zakim]

Attendees were Matt, Wendy, Becky_Gibson, Ben, John_Slatin, [IPcaller], Michael_Cooper, Tim_Boland, Dave_MacDonald, ChristopheStrobbe

15:23:33 [wendy]

RRSAgent, make log world

15:23:40 [wendy]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

15:23:40 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/04/20-wai-wcag-minutes.html wendy

15:23:53 [jslatin]

wendy, i'll send a WG update to the CG list...

15:24:01 [wendy]

thanks, john

15:24:15 [jslatin]

welcome! hasta luego

15:24:18 [ChristopheStrobbe]

ChristopheStrobbe has left #wai-wcag

15:24:28 [jslatin]

oooh, jaws butchered that spanish.

15:26:20 [ben]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

15:26:20 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/04/20-wai-wcag-minutes.html ben

15:27:20 [ben]

Meeting: WCAG Techniques Task Force Weekly Meeting

15:27:47 [ben]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

15:27:47 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/04/20-wai-wcag-minutes.html ben

15:28:05 [ben]

Chair: Wendy

15:28:13 [ben]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

15:28:13 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/04/20-wai-wcag-minutes.html ben

15:29:30 [ben]

RRSAgent, bye

15:29:30 [RRSAgent]

I see 7 open action items:

15:29:30 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: becky to propose guideline mapping [1]

15:29:30 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/20-wai-wcag-irc#T14-24-55

15:29:30 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: wendy to send email to Derek and Becky for feedback [2]

15:29:30 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/20-wai-wcag-irc#T14-25-18

15:29:30 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: john and wendy in future discussions with ppl doing guidelines summaries, draft some of the guide doc content (intent, definitions (clean up if needed or pull in from glossary), examples - minimum) [3]

15:29:30 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/20-wai-wcag-irc#T14-41-53

15:29:30 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: wendy and michael determine set of techniques and test cases for discussion for the next few weeks (1.3, 2.4, 4.2, 1.1) [4]

15:29:30 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/20-wai-wcag-irc#T14-43-48

15:29:30 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: john draft "assignment templates" by Monday 25 April [5]

15:29:30 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/20-wai-wcag-irc#T14-45-25

15:29:30 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: becky investigate if role for nav will be required in XHTMl 2 [6]

15:29:30 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/20-wai-wcag-irc#T15-07-11

15:29:30 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: john send msg to "guide doc task force" (michael, ben, wendy, john, david) and restart/finish guide doc work [7]

15:29:30 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/20-wai-wcag-irc#T15-20-43

15:29:38 [ben]

Zakim, bye

15:29:38 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #wai-wcag