13:59:48 RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag 13:59:48 logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/04/20-wai-wcag-irc 13:59:55 RRSAgent, make log world 14:00:21 Topic: WCAG Techniques Weekly Meeting 14:00:27 agenda+ Categories of Scripting Techniques from Becky (30 min.) 14:00:33 mcmay has joined #wai-wcag 14:00:39 agenda+ Work plan and processing techniques and test suite issues (30 min.) 14:00:48 agenda+ Update on issues with and discussions of using for navigation (15 min.) 14:00:57 agenda+ Guide Doc and structure (15 min.) 14:01:18 zakim, call matt-bos 14:01:18 ok, mcmay; the call is being made 14:01:19 WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has now started 14:01:21 +Matt 14:01:25 that should keep us off the streets and out of trouble for a couple hours 14:01:27 Becky_Gibson has joined #wai-wcag 14:01:41 ChristopheStrobbe has joined #wai-wcag 14:01:50 wendy has joined #wai-wcag 14:02:03 +Wendy 14:02:10 +Becky_Gibson 14:02:13 +??P17 14:02:17 zakim, ??P17 is Ben 14:02:17 +Ben; got it 14:02:23 zakim, who's on the phone? 14:02:23 On the phone I see Matt, Wendy, Becky_Gibson, Ben 14:02:30 +Christophe_Strobe 14:02:34 zakim's giving me a hard time, hang on... 14:02:48 agenda? 14:02:58 +John_Slatin 14:04:14 +[IPcaller] 14:04:17 zakim, ipcaller is Michael_Cooper 14:04:17 +Michael_Cooper; got it 14:04:28 scribe: Ben 14:04:56 zakim, take up item 1 14:04:56 agendum 1. "Categories of Scripting Techniques from Becky (30 min.)" taken up [from ben] 14:05:04 +Tim_Boland 14:05:30 bg: from baseline discussion, how do we organize techs. to provide baseline info? 14:05:30 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0153.html 14:05:46 Tim has joined #wai-wcag 14:05:59 bg: wanted to come up with a list of techniques for diff. categories, one of them was for no script at all 14:06:08 +Dave_MacDonald 14:07:24 (techs that worked with or without scripting). Now that we're removing requirement for alternatives to script, we needed a category for scripts that improve the accessibility of the site without harming access. 14:07:46 David_ has joined #wai-wcag 14:07:49 test 14:07:54 third category was if you are using script in your baseline, then here's how to do it so it meets UAAG and is directly accessible 14:08:01 bg: do these categories make sense? 14:08:38 Jim Ley posted some comments to list in response to proposed techniques. We also need to work on mapping for most of these techniques. 14:09:16 wc: am wondering how we explain this to people in a document that isn't normative - need to be careful about creating techniques that are more restrictive than guidelines 14:10:00 js: seems to me that if we have a req. like 2.1 (make interface elements keyboard operable), then there are diff. techs for doing that depending on what you're doing. (if your assuming script or not) 14:10:10 s/your/you're/ 14:10:47 Have script techniques been designed with testability in mind? 14:10:53 js: important to map these back to GL and SC so we can say that techniques are for satisfying something in the guidelines and which technique you choose will depend on baseline assumption 14:11:28 bg: maybe some of these are best practices and could live in another doc 14:11:51 mc: I would say the first and third categories are needed for WCAG, some of the second category might not be 14:12:50 js: is that because 2nd category is things that can be done to improve accessibility where first is things that work in the absence of scripting and third is if scripts are used, making them accessible? (so middle category becomes optional)? 14:13:07 bg: I viewed it as third category as more optional, but didn't think those mapped to GL as well 14:13:36 dm: have we decided that we're only going to map back to SC, not to guidelines? 14:13:41 js: think we have to map to SC 14:14:12 wc: interesting question that's come up before. GL usually is the "sprit" of something and SC is more specific. Question is whether we can map to the more general things. 14:14:22 js: think those come under category of advisory techniqeus 14:14:35 s/techniqeus/techniques/ 14:14:53 dm: would have to add a bunch of SC to include techniques 14:16:00 wc: seems to me that application/widget related techniques map back to basic set of SC, which are they need a label (1.1), keyboard access (2.1), and role and state info depending on what the widget does. Is anything else missing? 4.2 group is working on role and state. 14:16:48 bg: I also found that a fair number mapped to 2.4 (ex. using onload to set focus to a form element on a page). Some issues with this came up on the list, but technique can be helpful. 14:17:15 js: also an issue with phone number focus issue 14:17:26 bg: yes, some like that, some hate it... 14:18:36 bg: 2.4 L2 SC2 is where I mapped it, thought about 2.5 because it generally applies to errors, but couldn't find a SC that actually maps 14:19:00 wc: is next step to do more work on these techniques? 14:19:25 bg: need feedback about this direction, guess my next action item would be to propose a guideline mapping for each of these 14:19:39 bg: need feedback to know if these are the right types of techniques 14:20:41 js: for me, I don't know enough scripting to be able to give good feedback on details, but outline seems right to me and I liked what wendy said about where SC might be - may all map to 1.1, 2.1 and whatever emerges from 4.2 work and maybe also to some other things like 2.4. 14:22:05 wc: think I'm close to proposing that 1.1 require at least a label so you know that "within this window, this is what this is" ... widgets need labels 14:22:47 wc: also an idea of grouping things into a unit that is functional (ex. date selector widget in Flickr) 14:23:35 wc: another thing is that Derek Featherstone is doing a session on accessible javascripting in Austin, might be good to ask him to give us some feedback. 14:24:55 action becky: propose guideline mapping 14:25:18 action wendy: send email to Derek and Becky for feedback 14:25:52 js: one piece of feedback on guide doc was links to tutorials and articles 14:26:37 wc: part of what I heard you saying becky was that we don't need to rewrite these things because they already exist. can we link to external resources and annotate instead of recreating other work 14:26:52 bg: think that's a good idea, wasn't sure if we could do that and what to do about permissions 14:27:28 wc: good question, other question is (from W3C process) do we really want to rely on something that might change. 14:28:29 js: but part of the reason we want techs. to be non-normative is that we can rely on other things and repair links over time and update them. another strategy is to include "date retrieved" info with links to external resources 14:29:07 wc: tim asked about testability - I'd like to see techniques and test suites developed together, needs development 14:29:44 zakim, close this item 14:29:44 agendum 1 closed 14:29:46 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 14:29:47 2. Work plan and processing techniques and test suite issues (30 min.) [from ben] 14:29:51 zakim, take up item 2 14:29:51 agendum 2. "Work plan and processing techniques and test suite issues (30 min.)" taken up [from ben] 14:29:58 zakim, Christophe_Strobe is ChristopheStrobbe 14:29:58 +ChristopheStrobbe; got it 14:30:06 scribe: Michael 14:30:26 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0156.html 14:30:54 wc: plan to staggar work based on what guidelines doing 14:31:13 wc: concern how much we can do in a given week, given how many techniques some guidelines will have 14:31:33 wc: hopefully most work is tweaking, though some technique generation will come up 14:32:11 wc: next FtF week of June 13 in Europe, still working on venue 14:33:07 wc: Monday town hall, Tue / Wed Techniques, Thur / Fri GL 14:33:16 wc: close all Bugzilla issues in June 14:34:12 js: what has to change about how TTF works to meet objectives? 14:34:49 wc: recently more work has been done as proposals, by Mon for Wed call and by Tue for Thur call 14:34:59 wc: look for increase in proposals so calls can just review 14:35:30 wc: 2 week process, harvest issues in first week (re Techniques & test cases for HTML, CSS, Script), tweak and close second week 14:35:56 wc: need to close A) requirements and B) testing matrix 14:36:39 js: held off on requirements until we had clearer sense of where we were going with guide doc and structure 14:36:55 mc: also had open action items 14:38:07 js: nervous because work on guide doc prototypes noted it took longer than anticpated, may have been new format but may have been tougher task than anticipated 14:38:11 js: was it in the plan? 14:38:25 wc: idea was guide doc would be wrapped up in issue summaries 14:38:55 wc: package guidelines and guide doc as one task type, and techniques and test cases as another task type 14:39:03 js: but does add to time so we need to factor it into plan 14:39:24 wc: first week can be identifying issues, and clarifies issues for guide doc which can be part of second week 14:39:34 js: questions also become part of agenda for guide doc 14:40:10 js: writing "intent" section has been very useful - if I can't state intent, can't expect anyone else to understand it 14:40:31 wc: most of issues with GL 1 related to clarifications for guide doc 14:40:55 wc: modify placeholders to have at least intent and example 14:40:58 js: and definitions 14:41:53 action: john and wendy in future discussions with ppl doing guidelines summaries, draft some of the guide doc content (intent, definitions (clean up if needed or pull in from glossary), examples - minimum) 14:42:16 wc: also need to figure out who is available when so we can schedule around power outages 14:43:20 wc: for next week need to sort out what techniques relate to guideline 1.1 under discussion 14:43:48 action: wendy and michael determine set of techniques and test cases for discussion for the next few weeks (1.3, 2.4, 4.2, 1.1) 14:44:44 js: develop "assignment template" so when people assigned a guideline to review, they know what sort of stuff they need to produce 14:45:25 action: john draft "assignment templates" by Monday 25 April 14:45:46 zakim, close this item 14:45:46 agendum 2 closed 14:45:47 I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 14:45:49 3. Update on issues with and discussions of using for navigation (15 min.) [from ben] 14:45:58 zakim, take up item 3 14:45:58 agendum 3. "Update on issues with and discussions of using for navigation (15 min.)" taken up [from ben] 14:46:37 js: action to follow up on our discussion of problems with and challenge of explict, useful, text alternatives 14:47:16 js: message to CG list with example and query 14:47:33 js: Al Gilman response was that he would respond 14:47:46 js: John Gunderson said "just create a link" 14:47:48 dmd: d-link 14:48:05 js: philosophical discussion about longdesc 14:48:20 js: sounds like repair technique, not ultimately desirable 14:48:26 bc: UAAG needs to be fixed to address 14:49:09 js: Gregg suggested definition for "explicitly associated" that permits explicit text reference within same page 14:49:54 bc: e.g., alt text of image says "description below" 14:50:39 js: IMS site has a potential technique 14:51:59 link in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0171.html 14:53:22 js: re DHTML roadmap, discussion of making XHTML 2.0 features available in earlier versions of HTML, by using and custom values e.g., rel="navigation" targeting id'd stuff on page 14:53:33 summary of discussion from last week re: link/nav technique: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2005Apr/0015.html 14:54:20 js: various parties working on the navigation challenge, and global vs. secondary nav 14:54:55 wc: were our concerns raised to CG? 14:55:07 js: not all 14:55:24 js: haven't heard anything deeply problematic 14:55:34 bg: user agents will have to make changes to support all this 14:56:15 js: UIUC accessibility extension might take some of that 14:56:48 js: actual behaviour still undetermined 14:57:17 q+ 14:57:33 dmd: unclear if roadmap is present day or future 14:57:44 js: it's a road map to get us somewhere we aren't now 14:58:41 js: starts with XHTML 2.0 functionality, works backwards to find ways to incorporate that functionality in earlier versions of HTML back to 4.01, but it's not all fully working yet 14:59:40 js: question of recommending techniques that work today and not tomorrow and vice versa 14:59:54 dmd: what's timeline wrt WCAG 2? 15:00:30 bg: working to make sure WCAG 2 doesn't handcuff steps of roadmap 15:01:56 js: if UA builds automatic toc, how does it know what to call it? need a technique e.g., a title on list 15:02:30 js: no UA support for this now but wouldn't cost much to developers to do 15:03:28 ack ben 15:03:52 bc: is "role" going to be required in valid XHTML 2? 15:04:21 bc: will backward-walking techniques be part of sufficient / necessary for WCAG 2, or just advisory? 15:04:36 js: more advisory for now 15:05:34 bg: don't know if role for navigation is required 15:05:41 bc: if it is GL 4.1 could kick in 15:06:13 bg: roadmap steps in particular not required, but have to check for endpoint 15:06:43 wc: don't see "role" in XHTML 2 draft, but no draft since 2004 15:06:48 js: they've hit a wall 15:07:11 action: becky investigate if role for nav will be required in XHTMl 2 15:08:25 mc: connection to dmd test file work? 15:08:38 js: some of that discussion was what went to CG 15:08:53 dmd: big issue of what spec understands as alt vs. what we do 15:08:57 js: that's why it was a CG issue 15:09:29 wc: all of this is related go GL 1.1, so it's all good timing 15:10:25 js: bg had mentioned getting UA to look inside for text alternatives, but CG didn't pick that up 15:11:05 bc: best model is there is a way in UA for user to query the object for "what's there" and "give it to me if I want it" 15:11:59 mcm: world-dominant browser doesn't even allow that right now 15:12:27 zakim, close this item 15:12:28 agendum 3 closed 15:12:28 I see 1 item remaining on the agenda: 15:12:30 4. Guide Doc and structure (15 min.) [from ben] 15:12:41 zakim, take up item 4 15:12:41 agendum 4. "Guide Doc and structure (15 min.) " taken up [from ben] 15:13:06 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0121.html 15:13:12 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005AprJun/0142.html 15:13:13 js: discussion on guide doc last thur mainly involved people who had been drafting, so they pulled aside 15:14:29 js: high-level structure is 1: guidelines 2: guide doc 3: techniques, possibility including general techniques 4: checklists 5: test cases 15:15:37 js: people with various needs should be able to come in at the right point to meet their needs 15:15:47 js: that's a separate conceptual problem from that of structure 15:16:12 js: we can satisfy 2.4 to provide different ways to navigate 15:17:04 js: for guide doc, we each took different approach in prototypes, that group needs to converge and get the best 15:17:14 js: return with more drafts and a template so people with assignments can complete 15:18:21 js: feedback on bare outline was most confusing areas were "technology-independent techniques", not solved by calling "general techniques" 15:18:33 js: either had no idea what to find or expected code examples 15:18:52 js: so need a better lable 15:19:02 s/lable/label 15:19:29 js: thought "understanding this sc" section redundant with "benefits" 15:19:46 js: found useful exercise to write sentences beginning with "the intent of this sc is..." 15:20:24 js: get guide doc task force (GDTF) to do next round, then send around to reveiwers again 15:20:43 action: john send msg to "guide doc task force" (michael, ben, wendy, john) and restart/finish guide doc work 15:21:38 note: this isn't a formal task force....just short hand to identify those folks who were working on guide doc. 15:21:49 action 7= john send msg to "guide doc task force" (michael, ben, wendy, john, david) and restart/finish guide doc work 15:22:21 :) 15:23:10 -Tim_Boland 15:23:12 adjourned 15:23:13 -Matt 15:23:14 -Becky_Gibson 15:23:15 -Wendy 15:23:17 -John_Slatin 15:23:19 -Dave_MacDonald 15:23:20 -Ben 15:23:21 -ChristopheStrobbe 15:23:22 -Michael_Cooper 15:23:23 ben and michael - thanks for scribing! 15:23:24 WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended 15:23:25 Attendees were Matt, Wendy, Becky_Gibson, Ben, John_Slatin, [IPcaller], Michael_Cooper, Tim_Boland, Dave_MacDonald, ChristopheStrobbe 15:23:33 RRSAgent, make log world 15:23:40 RRSAgent, draft minutes 15:23:40 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/04/20-wai-wcag-minutes.html wendy 15:23:53 wendy, i'll send a WG update to the CG list... 15:24:01 thanks, john 15:24:15 welcome! hasta luego 15:24:18 ChristopheStrobbe has left #wai-wcag 15:24:28 oooh, jaws butchered that spanish. 15:26:20 RRSAgent, draft minutes 15:26:20 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/04/20-wai-wcag-minutes.html ben 15:27:20 Meeting: WCAG Techniques Task Force Weekly Meeting 15:27:47 RRSAgent, draft minutes 15:27:47 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/04/20-wai-wcag-minutes.html ben 15:28:05 Chair: Wendy 15:28:13 RRSAgent, draft minutes 15:28:13 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/04/20-wai-wcag-minutes.html ben 15:29:30 RRSAgent, bye 15:29:30 I see 7 open action items: 15:29:30 ACTION: becky to propose guideline mapping [1] 15:29:30 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/20-wai-wcag-irc#T14-24-55 15:29:30 ACTION: wendy to send email to Derek and Becky for feedback [2] 15:29:30 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/20-wai-wcag-irc#T14-25-18 15:29:30 ACTION: john and wendy in future discussions with ppl doing guidelines summaries, draft some of the guide doc content (intent, definitions (clean up if needed or pull in from glossary), examples - minimum) [3] 15:29:30 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/20-wai-wcag-irc#T14-41-53 15:29:30 ACTION: wendy and michael determine set of techniques and test cases for discussion for the next few weeks (1.3, 2.4, 4.2, 1.1) [4] 15:29:30 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/20-wai-wcag-irc#T14-43-48 15:29:30 ACTION: john draft "assignment templates" by Monday 25 April [5] 15:29:30 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/20-wai-wcag-irc#T14-45-25 15:29:30 ACTION: becky investigate if role for nav will be required in XHTMl 2 [6] 15:29:30 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/20-wai-wcag-irc#T15-07-11 15:29:30 ACTION: john send msg to "guide doc task force" (michael, ben, wendy, john, david) and restart/finish guide doc work [7] 15:29:30 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/20-wai-wcag-irc#T15-20-43 15:29:38 Zakim, bye 15:29:38 Zakim has left #wai-wcag