IRC log of dawg on 2005-04-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:23:13 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #dawg

14:23:13 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/04/19-dawg-irc

14:23:25 [DaveB]

DaveB has joined #dawg

14:23:50 [DanC]

agenda + news from SparqlingDays

14:24:45 [Zakim]

SW_DAWG()10:30AM has now started

14:24:53 [Zakim]

+Jeen_Broekstra

14:26:31 [howardk]

wow, your guys' clock is fast! I show 7:25 am here. http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/ concurs. but I'll join you anyway. :-)

14:26:48 [Zakim]

+??P26

14:26:50 [jeen]

i was a bit early

14:26:54 [AndyS]

zakim, ??P26 is AndyS

14:26:54 [Zakim]

+AndyS; got it

14:28:22 [Zakim]

+??P27

14:28:29 [DaveB]

Zakim, ??P27 is DaveB

14:28:29 [Zakim]

+DaveB; got it

14:28:37 [Zakim]

+DanC

14:28:39 [Zakim]

+HowardK

14:28:43 [Zakim]

-HowardK

14:29:25 [DanC]

agenda order is 1, 10

14:29:26 [Zakim]

+HowardK

14:29:46 [DanC]

Zakim, next agendum

14:29:46 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "Convene, take roll, review records and agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0122.html" taken up [from DanC]

14:30:25 [Zakim]

+EricP

14:30:34 [DanC]

andys asks: why separate ops for comparing integers and decimals?

14:30:56 [DanC]

(not quite convened)

14:30:57 [ericP]

can anybody hear me?

14:31:07 [DaveB]

ericP: I can't

14:31:09 [DanC]

nope, ericp

14:31:20 [Zakim]

+??P31

14:31:25 [Zakim]

+Kevin

14:31:28 [ericP]

weak, worked two hours ago

14:31:29 [DanC]

regrets: Yoshio, KendallC

14:31:31 [Zakim]

-EricP

14:31:39 [Zakim]

+EricP

14:31:54 [KevinW]

KevinW has joined #DAWG

14:32:14 [Zakim]

+AlbertoR

14:32:32 [AlbertoR]

AlbertoR has joined #dawg

14:33:19 [DanC]

Zakim, take up item 6

14:33:19 [Zakim]

agendum 6. "issue: valueTesting" taken up [from DanC]

14:33:54 [DanC]

Zakim, who is on the phone?

14:33:54 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Jeen_Broekstra, AndyS, DaveB, DanC, HowardK, EricP, ??P31, Kevin, AlbertoR

14:33:56 [DanC]

Zakim, take up item 1

14:33:56 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "Convene, take roll, review records and agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0122.html" taken up [from DanC]

14:34:40 [DanC]

regrets: Yoshio, KendallC, Jos De Roo

14:35:17 [DanC]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0095.html http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0101.html minutes

14:35:57 [jeen]

minutes approved

14:36:01 [DanC]

next meeting: 26 Apr

14:36:07 [DanC]

regrets 2005-04-26: Jos De Roo

14:36:36 [jeen]

scribe next week ericP

14:37:20 [DanC]

Zakim, who's talking?

14:37:31 [Zakim]

DanC, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: DanC (41%)

14:37:47 [DanC]

Zakim, next item

14:37:47 [Zakim]

agendum 10. "news from SparqlingDays" taken up [from DanC]

14:37:54 [DanC]

Zakim, who's on the phone?

14:37:54 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Jeen_Broekstra, AndyS, DaveB, DanC, HowardK, EricP, JanneS, Kevin, AlbertoR

14:38:32 [jeen]

AS has student looking into mapping sparql to sql

14:38:35 [DaveB]

http://librdf.org/2005/sparqling

14:39:34 [DanC]

DaveB: I don't think limit/offset belong in the protocol

14:40:18 [SteveH]

i agree limit+offset aren't protocol features

14:41:30 [jeen]

EP made an algea client

14:41:38 [DanC]

I saw http://dannyayers.com/archives/2005/04/17/the-gargonza-experiment/

14:41:58 [DaveB]

most things can be found off http://rdf4food.asemantics.org/FrontPage

14:42:21 [ericP]

algae CGI tool linked from http://www.w3.org/2004/10/18-RDF-WWW2005/

14:42:37 [ericP]

actual script is at http://www.w3.org/2004/10/18-RDF-WWW2005/algae

14:42:49 [jeen]

alberto: the idea of the sparqling days was to get together and try to set up some examples and demos

14:43:00 [howardk]

andy: http://www.w3.org/TR/xquery/#N165E1 shows the four 'basic' numeric types for function operands; what you're saying about subtype substitution is correct: anything that takes xs:decimal can take xs:integer as well (so I'm not sure why xs:integer is singled out separately, unless it's for efficiency issues.

14:43:11 [ericP]

(some style probs 'cause the proxy breaks stylesheet links)

14:43:19 [Zakim]

+Pat_Hayes

14:43:48 [AlbertoR]

http://www.gargonza.org/

14:43:54 [patH]

patH has joined #dawg

14:44:04 [DanC]

Zakim, what item is this?

14:44:04 [Zakim]

agendum 10. "news from SparqlingDays" has been taken up, DanC

14:44:06 [DaveB]

also in progress, I wished for a sparql logo, and lo, one appeared...

14:44:22 [jeen]

alberto: simple website where we want to collect some ideas about sparql, applications and demos, and how to connect, basically a way to showcase 'new web'

14:44:25 [DaveB]

the new web site is http://www.gargonza.org/

14:44:26 [AlbertoR]

http://demo2.asemantics.com/rdfstore/sparql/

14:44:38 [Zakim]

+NickG

14:44:43 [AlbertoR]

http://www.gargonza.org/downloads/sparql.php

14:44:47 [SteveH]

Zakim, NickG is SteveH

14:44:47 [Zakim]

+SteveH; got it

14:44:54 [SteveH]

zakim, mute me

14:44:54 [Zakim]

SteveH should now be muted

14:45:27 [AlbertoR]

http://rd4food.asemantics.org

14:45:30 [DanC]

(lo... http://dannyayers.com/sparql48.png )

14:45:52 [AlbertoR]

http://www.gargonza.org/images/sparql48.png

14:46:19 [AlbertoR]

Zavisa Bjelogrlic

14:46:31 [DaveB]

logo creator is nick "binzac" on gargonza.org

14:46:56 [AlbertoR]

everybody is welcome to join the experiment - just send email to gargonza@asemantics.org - soon there will be a public mailing list

14:47:23 [DanC]

Zakim, next item

14:47:23 [Zakim]

agendum 2. "issue: fromUnionQuery" taken up [from DanC]

14:48:02 [DanC]

. ACTION AndyS: add syntax to specify datasets in the query language

14:48:31 [jeen]

AndyS the query language does nothing about merging

14:49:04 [DanC]

AndyS: the FROM/FROM NAMED stuff only has one URI for the background graph. no merging. I'd like feedback please

14:49:38 [DanC]

ACTION KendallC: draft protocol section on specifying datasets (fromUnionQuery) including WSDL types and HTTP examples

14:50:12 [AlbertoR]

agrees

14:50:20 [jeen]

DaveB it's scary putting wsdl 2.0 semantics in the protocol doc

14:50:28 [DaveB]

at the start

14:50:36 [DanC]

Zakim, who's talking?

14:50:44 [AlbertoR]

HTTP bindings should go first eventually

14:50:46 [Zakim]

DanC, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Pat_Hayes (10%)

14:51:03 [Zakim]

-Pat_Hayes

14:51:10 [DanC]

nope, it's not you, pat

14:51:38 [DanC]

ACTION EricP: try out the "2 list of URIs" datasets design from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/0440.html

14:51:45 [Zakim]

+Pat_Hayes

14:52:31 [jeen]

(why not list of uris for bg graph?)

14:52:57 [jeen]

andys: the next step is people want/expect merging, etc. etc.

14:53:22 [AndyS]

I've implmented 2 lists (the foreground is a merge, the background is one name per graph)

14:53:44 [DanC]

Zakim, next agendum

14:53:44 [Zakim]

agendum 3. "issue: wsdlAbstractProtocol" taken up [from DanC]

14:53:44 [AndyS]

Could have FROM NAMED <u1> <u2> AS <u3>

14:54:21 [ericP]

If we do named graphs, I prefer what Andy just proposed.

14:54:37 [DanC]

ACTION: KendallC to own wsdlAbstractProtocol (based on WSDL description added to protocol to editor's draft).

14:54:40 [DanC]

Zakim, next agendum

14:54:40 [Zakim]

agendum 3 was just opened, DanC

14:54:46 [DanC]

Zakim, close item 3

14:54:46 [Zakim]

agendum 3 closed

14:54:47 [Zakim]

I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

14:54:48 [Zakim]

4. issue: xmlAbstractSyntax [from DanC]

14:54:50 [DanC]

Zakim, next agendum

14:54:50 [Zakim]

agendum 4. "issue: xmlAbstractSyntax" taken up [from DanC]

14:55:03 [DanC]

ACTION: KendallC to work out remaining details in sparqlx.{rnc,xsd,rng}: expression syntax, order-by stuff (xmlAbstractSyntax)

14:56:26 [DanC]

DanC: what's the defined term corresponding to SPARQL query?

14:56:43 [jeen]

andys: it's called Query

14:57:05 [jeen]

dc: that's concrete, want defs

14:57:30 [jeen]

andys: there isn't a term for that

14:59:21 [DaveB]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/sparqlx.rnc

14:59:23 [DanC]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/sparqlx.rnc 1.6

15:00:08 [DaveB]

the recursive term is query-pattern

15:01:04 [DanC]

ACTION AndyS: define a term for abstract form of SPARQL query

15:01:05 [DaveB]

although in the Query WD, I'd have expected it to be graph-pattern

15:01:13 [DanC]

Zakim, next agendum

15:01:13 [Zakim]

agendum 5. "protocol publication candidate" taken up [from DanC]

15:01:14 [AndyS]

In rq23 the recursive bit is "graph pattern"

15:01:42 [DanC]

ACTION: KendallC to incorporate EricP's privacy text, salting to taste

15:01:56 [jeen]

AndyS: will read it, can't commit to review

15:01:57 [DanC]

DanC solicits reviewers for upcoming pub

15:02:04 [DanC]

Zakim, next agendum

15:02:04 [Zakim]

agendum 5 was just opened, DanC

15:02:10 [DanC]

Zakim, close this item

15:02:10 [Zakim]

agendum 5 closed

15:02:12 [Zakim]

I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

15:02:12 [DanC]

Zakim, next agendum

15:02:14 [Zakim]

6. issue: valueTesting [from DanC]

15:02:15 [Zakim]

agendum 6. "issue: valueTesting" taken up [from DanC]

15:02:26 [DanC]

ACTION: DaveB to work with EricP to clarify valueTesting proposal

15:02:39 [DanC]

. ACTION: HowardK to seek clarification on valueTesting w.r.t. differenced from XQuery

15:02:57 [jeen]

HK made progress. not sure when to claim victory, wants feedback from andy and ericP

15:03:21 [DaveB]

discussing hk's doc http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0124.html

15:05:23 [DanC]

ack danc

15:05:23 [Zakim]

DanC, you wanted to encourage xref checking ala http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0106.html

15:06:13 [jeen]

DanC - check links from our spec to xquery spec re types and comps

15:07:03 [jeen]

DanC how close to done?

15:08:19 [jeen]

ericP some fuzzy issues left:

15:10:34 [jeen]

- whether plain rdf literals because they are the same term or because they have the same value

15:10:34 [DaveB]

this seems to be the rdf term equality operator - http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#func-RDFterm-equal

15:13:33 [jeen]

DanC when do you go to second bit in OR?

15:13:47 [DaveB]

I'd need a test for this potential OR, can't see ericP's problem.

15:13:50 [SteveH]

in rdf-term-equal one could be unbound

15:14:25 [jeen]

andyS: idea: table in document with example comparisons

15:15:19 [DaveB]

DanC was asking "1.0"^^xsd:integer compared to "1"^^xsd:integer

15:15:25 [DaveB]

different terms, would compare equal

15:15:34 [ericP]

bindings same type-specific

15:15:34 [ericP]

?x ?y node equivilence

15:15:34 [ericP]

<foo> <foo> 1 error

15:15:34 [ericP]

_:a _:a 1 error

15:15:34 [ericP]

"123" "123" 1 error

15:15:36 [ericP]

"123"^^int "123"^^int 1 1 =(int, int)

15:15:39 [ericP]

"123"^^int "123"^^float 0 1 =(float, float)

15:15:41 [ericP]

"11:01"^^dt "11:01"^^dt 1 1 =(dateTime, dateTime)

15:16:58 [jeen]

DanC asks Janne if this is a problem in his impl

15:17:27 [jeen]

Janne - haven't considered it in detail yet

15:17:59 [AndyS]

Don't understand :: "123" "123" 1 error

15:18:32 [SteveH]

AndyS, "123" doesnt have a type, so its realsonable that a type specific test fails

15:18:46 [ericP]

agae impl: http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/perl/modules/W3C/Rdf/Atoms.pm?rev=1.88&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup&only_with_tag=HEAD

15:19:15 [ericP]

look for 2nd instance of "sub numericOrDTCompare {

15:19:16 [ericP]

"

15:19:33 [jeen]

DanC cwm background graph is always normalized

15:19:51 [jeen]

Dave is not coding this part of the design

15:19:56 [DaveB]

yet

15:19:58 [SteveH]

I've done some of it, but not all

15:20:02 [DanC]

Zakim, next agendum

15:20:02 [Zakim]

agendum 7. "issue: sort" taken up [from DanC]

15:20:11 [ericP]

all atoms in algae impl aer normalized

15:20:19 [DanC]

. ACTION JeenB: Write a few sort test cases.

15:20:29 [AndyS]

I think that we extend the type space: XSD types + plain literal.

15:20:48 [DanC]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data/sort/

15:21:36 [patH]

it would make sense to treat plain literals as though they werre typed with xsd:string.

15:21:59 [DanC]

<rs:solution rdf:parseType="Resource">

15:22:00 [DanC]

<rs:index rdf:datype="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#integer">1</rs:index>

15:22:19 [patH]

this equality is specified in the RDF semantics as normative.

15:22:23 [DaveB]

the rdf/xml is invalid

15:22:56 [DanC]

ORDER BY ASC[?mbox]

15:23:43 [AndyS]

PatH: yes

15:24:24 [DaveB]

rdf plain literal is an xsd:string literal + language tag. need to consider both in equality

15:25:40 [patH]

I was presuming no lang tag. Lang tagged literalks are different from tagged, must have both tag and literal string-equal.

15:26:38 [AndyS]

We going to enforce non-case etsts

15:26:49 [AndyS]

We going to enforce non-case tests : lang tag: "en" = "EN" ?

15:27:37 [patH]

Hmm, never considered that. Suggest we consult external authorites :-)

15:28:57 [SteveH]

zakim, unmute me

15:28:57 [Zakim]

SteveH should no longer be muted

15:29:17 [SteveH]

zakim, mute me

15:29:17 [Zakim]

SteveH should now be muted

15:29:45 [SteveH]

zakim, unmute me

15:29:45 [Zakim]

SteveH should no longer be muted

15:30:02 [SteveH]

zakim, mute me

15:30:02 [Zakim]

SteveH should now be muted

15:31:27 [jeen]

DanC close sort issue?

15:32:18 [DanC]

PROPOSED: that http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#specifyingDataset v 1.307 addresses the sort issue

15:33:22 [jeen]

DaveB not happy with wording, many issues came up with LIMIT, OFFSET etc

15:33:27 [ericP]

i have not addressed this

15:34:33 [DanC]

(darn. wind noise)

15:34:36 [DaveB]

too much noise

15:34:59 [DanC]

wierd

15:35:06 [DaveB]

if 10.1 said "Query patterns generate a sequence of solutions, and each solutoon...

15:35:09 [DaveB]

that'sd be better

15:35:25 [Zakim]

-Pat_Hayes

15:35:26 [DaveB]

"passed through a stage to control" sounds like implementation

15:35:58 [DaveB]

and the bulleted list should be an order; controls are processed in the following order 1. DISTINCT ...

15:36:09 [Zakim]

-DanC

15:36:18 [ericP]

aha!

15:36:38 [Zakim]

+DanC

15:36:38 [AndyS]

I can't find Solution Sets in the doc.

15:36:47 [DaveB]

ignore SOlution Sets, I said Soluton sequences

15:37:28 [ericP]

i muted JanneS and it went away immediately

15:37:31 [Zakim]

+Pat_Hayes

15:37:53 [AndyS]

"Solution Sets vs Solution Sequences" in 0038

15:38:03 [DaveB]

well I did say I was confused

15:38:13 [DaveB]

clearly solutions can't be sets; as you can distinct them

15:38:14 [SteveH]

zakim, unmute me

15:38:14 [Zakim]

SteveH should no longer be muted

15:38:34 [jeen]

Steve: thought about it, not implemented it

15:38:45 [jeen]

Steve: feature I really want but looks....

15:39:14 [jeen]

DaveB: only feedback I got was 'please do DISTINCT and LIMIT'

15:39:43 [DanC]

Zakim, who's on the phone?

15:39:43 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Jeen_Broekstra, AndyS, DaveB, DanC, HowardK, EricP, JanneS (muted), Kevin, AlbertoR, SteveH, Pat_Hayes

15:40:23 [AlbertoR]

some ORDER_BY is important and needed today -

15:41:31 [DanC]

poll: who thinks postponing sort is a bad idea? 3ish

15:41:50 [DaveB]

I'm neutral

15:42:20 [SteveH]

I'm also nuetral

15:43:00 [jeen]

AR: i think it's very important to have some kind of ordering

15:43:50 [jeen]

AR: would rather spend more time implementing what the spec says than not having any kind of sort

15:44:11 [DanC]

ACTION JeenB: Write a few sort test cases.

15:44:15 [DanC]

Zakim, next agendum

15:44:15 [Zakim]

agendum 8. "SPARQL QL publication candidate" taken up [from DanC]

15:44:41 [jeen]

DanC this afternoon likely

15:44:52 [DanC]

ACTION: PatH to internal review of rq23

15:45:16 [DanC]

Zakim, next agendum

15:45:16 [Zakim]

agendum 9. "test suite maintenance (time permitting)" taken up [from DanC]

15:45:36 [jeen]

andys - still have comments from bijan that i haven't processed yet

15:45:55 [DanC]

. ACTION: EricP to pair with SteveH on making the HTML test results page

15:46:08 [DanC]

ACTION: EricP to pair with SteveH on making the HTML test results page

15:46:31 [DanC]

. ACTION: SteveH to to revise test manifest w.r.t. "background" and named graphs

15:46:34 [DanC]

DONE.

15:46:40 [DanC]

ACTION: DaveB to to propose source test to approve

15:46:57 [DanC]

ACTION: SteveH to prepare test cases for publication as WG Note (no deadline/urgency)

15:47:25 [Zakim]

-JanneS

15:47:25 [DanC]

. ACTION: AndyS to add the above graph test cases (analagous to valueTesting test cases) (don't expect quick delivery)

15:47:30 [DanC]

ACTION: AndyS to add the above graph test cases (analagous to valueTesting test cases) (don't expect quick delivery)

15:47:37 [DanC]

ACTION: DanC to follow up re optional test based on op:dateTime triple

15:47:50 [DanC]

. ACTION: AndyS to propose a test re "x"^^mytype != "y"^^mytpe

15:49:10 [DanC]

ACTION: EricP to propose a test re "x"^^mytype != "y"^^mytpe

15:49:49 [DanC]

ADJOURN.

15:49:49 [Zakim]

-DaveB

15:49:53 [Zakim]

-AlbertoR

15:49:54 [Zakim]

-Pat_Hayes

15:50:02 [DanC]

RRSAgent, make logs world-access

15:50:07 [howardk]

eric: wanna chat about getting together ??

15:50:08 [Zakim]

-Kevin

15:50:10 [DanC]

RRSAgent, pointer?

15:50:10 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2005/04/19-dawg-irc#T15-50-10

15:50:22 [ericP]

howard, sure

15:50:44 [Zakim]

-DanC

15:50:46 [Zakim]

-Jeen_Broekstra

15:51:23 [jeen]

jeen has left #dawg

15:51:38 [DanC]

regrets + Thompson, Bryan B

15:52:37 [Zakim]

-SteveH

15:53:05 [AndyS]

AndyS has left #dawg

15:58:51 [Zakim]

-AndyS

16:07:16 [ericP]

netstorm -- will ask you to repeat a lot

16:08:46 [ericP]

fallback to irc

16:09:05 [howardk]

ok

16:09:15 [howardk]

i hear you fine

16:09:44 [howardk]

2 hours ??

16:09:49 [howardk]

by phone?

16:09:55 [howardk]

sounds good

16:10:09 [ericP]

still broken

16:10:09 [howardk]

broken ... too bad

16:10:19 [howardk]

sounds good eric.

16:10:43 [howardk]

yes

16:10:43 [howardk]

ok, 1 hour ...

16:10:43 [howardk]

good ...

16:10:43 [howardk]

ta

16:10:43 [howardk]

ok

16:10:43 [howardk]

bye

16:10:43 [Zakim]

-EricP

16:10:52 [Zakim]

-HowardK

16:10:53 [ericP]

ouch! my ear bud hurts

16:10:54 [Zakim]

SW_DAWG()10:30AM has ended

16:10:55 [Zakim]

Attendees were Jeen_Broekstra, AndyS, DaveB, DanC, HowardK, EricP, Kevin, AlbertoR, JanneS, Pat_Hayes, SteveH

16:11:16 [DanC]

RRSAgent, stop