IRC log of tagmem on 2005-03-29

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:57:52 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
18:00:17 [Zakim]
TAG_Weekly()12:30PM has now started
18:00:24 [ht]
zakim, please call ht-781
18:00:25 [Zakim]
18:00:26 [Zakim]
ok, ht; the call is being made
18:00:27 [Zakim]
18:00:38 [Zakim]
18:00:52 [ht]
RRSAgent, scribenick ht
18:00:52 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'scribenick ht', ht. Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:03:13 [ht]
scribe: Henry Thompson
18:03:21 [Zakim]
18:03:26 [ht]
ScribeNick: ht
18:03:33 [ht]
Meeting: TAG
18:03:38 [ht]
Chair: Vincent
18:04:49 [Zakim]
18:05:25 [Zakim]
18:07:38 [ht]
Regrets: Ed Rice
18:08:01 [ht]
zakim, who is on the phone?
18:08:01 [Zakim]
On the phone I see [INRIA], Ht, DanC, Norm, Roy, [IBM]
18:08:11 [ht]
zakim, [I is Vincent
18:08:11 [Zakim]
sorry, ht, I do not recognize a party named '[I'
18:08:19 [ht]
zakim, [IN is Vincent
18:08:19 [Zakim]
+Vincent; got it
18:08:22 [timbl_]
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18:08:30 [ht]
zakim, [IB is Noah
18:08:31 [Zakim]
+Noah; got it
18:09:01 [ht]
VC: Agenda has been revised per DC's suggestions
18:09:16 [Zakim]
18:09:32 [ht]
Topic: Next telcon
18:10:05 [ht]
VC: 5 April, 1300 EDT
18:10:19 [ht]
NM: Possible regrets
18:10:39 [noah]
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18:10:47 [ht]
Roy: regrets for next week
18:10:54 [ht]
DC: Will scribe next week
18:11:44 [ht]
VC: Minutes from last week?
18:11:53 [DanC]
(it should say chair: vincent rather than SV_MEETING_CHAIR, but not a big deail)
18:12:09 [ht]
RESOLVED: Minutes approved
18:12:40 [ht]
VC: HT had action about where to put minutes
18:13:30 [ht]
HT: Some progress, proposal next week
18:14:07 [Zakim]
18:14:14 [Zakim]
18:14:27 [ht]
HT: This week's will go in W3C date space, as last week
18:14:44 [noah]
zakim, who is here?
18:14:44 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Vincent, Ht, DanC, Norm, Noah, TimBL, Roy_Fielding
18:14:45 [Zakim]
On IRC I see noah, timbl_, RRSAgent, Vincent, Zakim, ht, DanC
18:14:46 [ht]
Topic: Request from WWW2005 for TAG particiipation
18:14:48 [Roy]
Roy has joined #tagmem
18:14:58 [DanC]
(I plan to *not* be there)
18:15:00 [timbl_]
I will be in Chiba
18:15:02 [Roy]
not me
18:15:03 [Norm]
Norm has joined #tagmem
18:15:06 [ht]
VC: Who will be there
18:15:10 [noah]
Noah will not be in Japan
18:15:23 [ht]
TBL: Will be at WWW2005. . .
18:15:27 [Norm]
I, alas, will not be in Japan either
18:15:31 [Vincent]
Vincent will not be there
18:15:54 [ht]
... Doesn't think he will be there for DevDay
18:16:14 [ht]
VC: Seems like no-one will be there
18:16:32 [ht]
TBL: Anyone there for rest of conference?
18:17:59 [ht]
Action: VC to check with DO and ER and, pbly, tell organisers that no-one can be there
18:18:32 [ht]
Topic: Reviewing WS-Addressing Core etc.
18:18:56 [ht]
VC: Received request from WS-A WG that we review WS-Addressing Core and SOAP Binding
18:19:22 [ht]
... They have extended the Last Call period through mid-May
18:19:34 [ht]
... Can we have reviewers for them?
18:19:41 [DanC]
-> endPointRefs-47: WS-Addressing SOAP binding & app protocols
18:19:46 [ht]
... ER has volunteered -- anyone else?
18:20:21 [ht]
DC: Has looked at one before . . .
18:20:43 [ht]
... Not sure I could say anything polite, maybe it's improved since then
18:21:19 [ht]
NM: We should be watching how identity is being handled in WS-A
18:21:42 [DanC]
-> Web Services Addressing 1.0 - Core Editors' copy Date: 2005/03/22 16:22:02
18:22:03 [ht]
... I thought there was agreement that ref-prop and ref-param distinction was lost, and agreement that the URI is what determined identity
18:22:08 [DanC]
the "bits go here" text seems to still be there: [[ A reference may contain a number of individual parameters which are associated with the endpoint to facilitate a particular interaction. ]]
18:22:35 [ht]
... But the WG says there is more flexibility, while acknowledging the strong position on identity, allows other practices
18:22:49 [Zakim]
18:23:09 [ht]
... TAG could/should say "This could be misused, you should say that too"
18:24:06 [ht]
DO: not me, too close to this
18:24:47 [noah]
I like Tim's idea: don't just review the document, but instead flag issues we should discuss in TAG meetings/calls
18:24:58 [ht]
DC: Can we let this hang a few weeks?
18:25:17 [ht]
VC: Not finished yet, no rush
18:25:31 [ht]
DO: They are 99% finished, no reason to wait
18:26:17 [ht]
VC: We will return to this in a few weeks when ER is on call
18:26:47 [ht]
DO: Happy to help privately or on call/www-tag anyone who is reviewing
18:27:05 [ht]
Topic: Reviewing XML Query and XSL WG Last Call documents
18:27:26 [ht]
VC: Paul Cotton asks if we want to review, offers help:
18:27:42 [ht] [member-only]
18:28:05 [ht]
VC: Are we interested in reviewing all/any of these?
18:28:16 [DanC]
-> why the special case for % in fn:escape-uri?
18:28:27 [ht]
DC: One reason . . . a comment I sent in 2003
18:29:04 [ht]
... Two ways to escape URIs, I will check this up in their Last Call
18:29:40 [ht]
VC: Will publish on 4 April 2005, Last Call lasts 6 weeks thereafter
18:30:02 [ht]
DC: Will review Functions and Operators insofar as its a URI standard library
18:30:24 [Roy]
They also need to update the references
18:30:31 [ht]
... They are proposing to produce namespace documents, we should look at them, I nominate NW
18:31:10 [Norm]
18:31:40 [ht]
NW: I constructed the namespace document, so I'm not the best person to review it
18:31:51 [Roy]
18:32:13 [Norm]
18:32:21 [ht]
... namespace document has an anchor for every name in F&O
18:33:02 [ht]
... pointers are member-only until 4 April
18:33:31 [ht]
DC: Please point www-tag to this after it's published
18:34:01 [ht]
VC: So we have DC for F&O -- anyone else?
18:34:29 [ht]
... Paul Cotton was only asking if we wanted to review and if so what, not requiring review of the whole suite
18:35:31 [ht]
NM: F&O is a good target, language docs not likely to have TAG issues, need Schema and Core to look at data model . . .
18:35:44 [DanC]
ACTION DanC: review Functions and Operators insofar as its a URI standard library
18:35:56 [ht]
VC: That's enough
18:36:36 [ht]
ACTION: VC to reply to Paul that DC is doing F&O, Norm will call attention to namespace document
18:36:43 [ht]
Topic: issue URNsAndRegistries-50
18:37:21 [DanC]
reviewing 22 Mar minutes... "their deadline is 14 Apr"
18:37:24 [ht]
VC: Two actions -- ER to review XRI document, no progress
18:37:42 [timbl_] ->
18:37:50 [ht]
... Deadline is 14 April, so we need to move
18:38:24 [ht]
... HT to produce initial draft with DO
18:38:25 [Norm]
I get an EOFError, timbl_
18:38:44 [ht]
18:39:11 [ht]
HT: Barest of beginnings -- next step is to fold in material from DO
18:40:19 [Vincent]
ack DanC
18:40:19 [Zakim]
DanC, you wanted to suggest VQ let the XRI folks know we're interested but would like an extension beyond 14 Apr to review
18:40:47 [ht]
DC: 14 April is hard to meet, but they should know we're about to comment
18:40:59 [ht]
... Could you (VC) ask them for an extension
18:41:30 [ht]
ACTION: VC to send note to OASIS TC requesting extension to end of month
18:41:43 [DanC]
18:42:21 [ht]
Topic: Discussion of httpRange-14
18:42:51 [ht]
VC: We ran out of time two weeks ago, picking up on this now that TBL is here
18:42:53 [Roy]
18:43:15 [DanC]
-> What do HTTP URIs Identify?
18:43:17 [ht]
18:43:31 [DanC]
(bummer Ed's not here)
18:43:48 [ht]
VQ: Let's try to develop this in to a finding on httpRange-14
18:44:29 [ht]
TBL: SWBPG has said they'd like to see resolution that any URI can be used for anything
18:44:42 [Roy]
18:45:29 [ht]
... We need understanding amongst TAG not just about httpRange-14, but also an improved glossary -- resources, function of http
18:45:47 [ht]
... Looking for formal description of web in SemWeb terms
18:45:55 [DanC]
(some work on formalizing webarch terms )
18:46:07 [ht]
q+ to discuss another compromise
18:46:43 [ht]
TBL: Compromise between my position that retrieving a URL gets a picture [lost it]
18:47:07 [ht]
... Contra position e.g. Dublin Core are using vanilla URL as a property
18:47:08 [noah]
q+ to ask for clarification of Tim's statement: you should expect a picture
18:47:34 [ht]
... TBL replies OK, but you can't reply 200, and you can't give back the relation itself
18:47:53 [ht]
... Maybe we should come up with a new return code for this case
18:48:15 [Vincent]
ack noah
18:48:15 [Zakim]
noah, you wanted to ask for clarification of Tim's statement: you should expect a picture
18:48:19 [ht]
... Note that you can't reasonably return the whole WordNet DB
18:48:36 [ht]
NM: Clarification of picture example
18:49:19 [ht]
... Do a get, what comes back is a picture, entitled to expectation that subsequent GETs will also be _some_ kind of picture, although its encoding might change
18:49:48 [ht]
... NOT that the URI was really identifying Noah, so almost anything might come back again
18:50:37 [ht]
NM: Narrow range is the range that returns 200
18:51:07 [ht]
TBL: Life Sciences identifiers -- instead of complicated scheme, convert to URI, no # there now, not obvious where to put it
18:51:44 [ht]
... Namespaces where # doesn't make sense, where / is really sensible
18:52:01 [ht]
... Not as architecturally clean as saying all http space is info resources
18:52:05 [Vincent]
ack ht
18:52:06 [Zakim]
ht, you wanted to discuss another compromise
18:52:58 [DanC]
HT: I hear two positions...
18:53:29 [DanC]
(1) http URIs can be used for both things you normally expect to retriev from and things you don't normally expect to retrieve from
18:54:03 [DanC]
(2) while maybe you could, it reduces confusion if we had some syntactic way to distinguish those two cases
18:54:35 [timbl_]
ht: Topic Maps have a special syntax around the *use* of a URI.
18:54:48 [DanC]
... the topicmap architecture works as (2)... it's not just business-as-usual when you want to point outside the web
18:54:53 [DanC]
(er... now I've lost count)
18:55:09 [DanC]
HT: there are proposals like tdb: from Masinter and wpn: by myself et al...
18:55:47 [noah]
18:56:08 [DanC]
HT: some of the folks that are opposed to the "use #" position are opposed for [some kind of] reason, so maybe we should state the goal in [some way] ...
18:56:46 [Roy]
q+ to consider that SW applications could accept URIs that indirectly identify concepts through information resources if there is an N:1 relationship between the information resource and the concept and the SW language indicates indirection
18:56:54 [noah]
q+ To ask a question about role of media types in the use of #
18:57:27 [Vincent]
ack Roy
18:57:27 [Zakim]
Roy, you wanted to consider that SW applications could accept URIs that indirectly identify concepts through information resources if there is an N:1 relationship between the
18:57:30 [Zakim]
... information resource and the concept and the SW language indicates indirection
18:58:20 [timbl_]
sweb: http:
18:58:21 [ht]
TBL: To look at way of relieving peoples pain, where we keep seeing new schemes as new applications arrive, maybe a new scheme for asking about semantics
18:58:32 [DanC]
(there's also HTTP for setting up telephone calls, called SIP. but that's another story)
18:59:04 [ht]
HT: yes, that's v. close to the wpn: story
18:59:36 [ht]
RF: Want to go back to the question of why we want to make the distinction
18:59:59 [ht]
... What do we gain by saying "All the http: identifiers have this constraint"?
19:00:25 [ht]
... As opposed to saying "We have one http resource which gives information about another http resource"?
19:00:33 [ht]
TBL: Use cases?
19:00:56 [ht]
RF: Technology examples -- we could change the language this way, or the usage that way, pros and cons
19:01:16 [ht]
TBL: Dublin Core is a popular test case
19:02:03 [ht]
RF: dc:Title is not a relation, its a conceptual thing, if you dereference it you get a page which says: "This is the abstract 'title' property"
19:02:16 [ht]
19:02:54 [ht]
TBL: We could say -- just put a # there, or use wpn:, or . . .
19:03:09 [ht]
RF: Those are just 'solutions' -- how does it make anything better?
19:03:27 [DanC]
(found RF's comments that seem 180 degrees away from timbl's position )
19:03:46 [timbl_]
19:03:48 [timbl_]
19:04:31 [timbl_]
{ <> dc:creator ?x } => { ?x a :Answer }.
19:06:06 [ht]
HT: [Moby Dick vs _Moby Dick_ example]
19:06:18 [noah]
But Henry, has anyone proposed the >same< URI for the whale and the book text? I don't think so. The question is, I think, whether the possibility of a slimy slippery non-information whale can be eliminated either by inspection of the scheme and/or by rc=200
19:06:57 [ht]
Noah, see Tim's example!
19:07:24 [ht]
RF: So you dereference, and see notes about reading _Moby Dick_ the book
19:08:22 [ht]
TBL: If we don't have _some_ convention, what's to stop me using the above URL for the book
19:08:46 [ht]
which makes ... dc:creator <timbl> false
19:09:11 [ht]
TBL: So the URI clearly identifies what you get when you retrieve, i.e. the web page
19:09:30 [timbl_]
19:09:30 [ht]
RF: Can you extrapolate this to all examples of http: I don't think so
19:09:30 [Vincent]
ack noah
19:09:31 [Zakim]
noah, you wanted to ask a question about role of media types in the use of #
19:10:17 [ht]
NM: Mechanistic view of the # position:
19:10:40 [ht]
... 1) WebArch says interp of fragid is determined by media type of thing retrieved;
19:11:19 [ht]
... 2) # proponents say if I want to talk about the whale I'll use a #
19:11:20 [timbl_]
19:12:04 [ht]
... 3) LHS is a URI, I do a retrieval, something comes back, with a media type
19:12:16 [DanC]
my bumper sticker explanation is: foo#bar refers to what bar refers to in foo
19:12:31 [ht]
... What do we need to know about this media type wrt the # convention?
19:13:11 [ht]
... Since I know I can't put the puppy in the wire, I still need _something_ there which the #puppy connects to
19:13:46 [ht]
... What's the connection between the media type and what kind of media types can I deploy that makes this work
19:14:18 [ht]
... Surely I can't use text/html, because that media type says # resolves to fragments
19:15:08 [ht]
... Surely I can't use text/html, because that media type says # resolves to fragments
19:15:41 [ht]
DO: ref Abstract Components finding, advice to media type definers
19:16:26 [ht]
NM: Suppose we said we had a class of resources that always returned a 1-byte 0, with a media type which tells you you get abstract referents from fragids
19:16:36 [ht]
TBL: That's twisted
19:17:10 [ht]
TBL: See DC's foo#bar above, media type tells you how to interpret what you get as foo, and how to find bar in it
19:17:42 [ht]
... RDF says bar refers into the universe of discourse
19:18:16 [ht]
NM: I want to refer to people, I design a media type that allows this, can I do that w/o having 4billion parts, in some explicit way?
19:18:35 [ht]
DC: You could do the 1-byte story, but it's unlikely to work very well
19:18:55 [ht]
NM: You're telling me to ground it in the document, how?
19:19:16 [ht]
DC: WebArch doesn't guarantee to allow you to solve your problem your way
19:19:56 [ht]
TBL: Possible way, in the language you say after the # identifies something in this space, could be an algorithm, not a navigation story
19:20:34 [ht]
... So the spec. could be to formulate a SPARQL query
19:20:53 [ht]
NM: So racine is always the same, why not move it in to the media type?
19:21:23 [ht]
TBL: No, media type is ...rdf, [missed the rest]
19:21:51 [ht]
NM: Document is rdf or sparql query, #Noah is parameter
19:21:58 [ht]
DC: Reduces to 1-byte case
19:22:03 [ht]
19:22:32 [ht]
q+ to worry about weakness of media type
19:22:47 [DanC]
(I hope we get to talking about what to write soonish)
19:22:52 [Roy]
q+ to invert the moby dick example by taking the original text of Moby Dick and decorate it with the original author, publisher, and date metadata and place it on an HTTP server
19:23:19 [ht]
TBL, NM: scribe missed this passage, sorry
19:24:21 [ht]
TBL: Reading document and understanding it is the way forward, but navigation within it is not necessarily what the fragment will do
19:24:40 [Vincent]
ack DanC
19:24:40 [Zakim]
DanC, you wanted to ask RF about XML signature algorithm identifiers
19:24:50 [DanC]
-> use of fragments as names is irresponsible
19:25:12 [DanC]
19:25:34 [ht]
DC: XML Sig algorithm identifiers, with # in them, I recall Roy saying use / there
19:25:36 [Vincent]
ack roy
19:25:36 [Zakim]
Roy, you wanted to invert the moby dick example by taking the original text of Moby Dick and decorate it with the original author, publisher, and date metadata and place it on an
19:25:40 [Zakim]
... HTTP server
19:26:11 [ht]
RF: If using defining examples, use plausible and thorough ones
19:26:43 [ht]
... Stipulate we produce a full electronic reconstruction of a particular edition of Moby Dick?
19:26:55 [ht]
TBL: In that case there's no argument
19:27:16 [ht]
RF: There should be _some_ -- it's still not a book, it's a web page
19:27:25 [ht]
TBL: But it's the Work of Art
19:27:48 [Vincent]
ack ht
19:27:48 [Zakim]
ht, you wanted to worry about weakness of media type
19:28:44 [noah]
Henry says: depending on the media type makes me nervous, because sometimes I can't dereference
19:29:09 [timbl_]
Another time Henry (offline)
19:29:46 [ht]
VQ: Making progress -- can we work from existing doc't (DesignIssues/HTTP_URI), or start from scratch?
19:29:51 [ht]
DO: Ponder more
19:29:55 [ht]
TBL: Discuss more
19:30:32 [ht]
TBL: We're not going to reach conclusion in 5 minutes
19:30:49 [ht]
VQ: More discussion another time
19:31:21 [ht]
DC: One part of goal was to bring new members on board, so we go again when we have ER with us
19:31:41 [ht]
DC: It helped to have two weeks notice -- next time?
19:31:51 [ht]
[all]: Yes, next week
19:32:06 [ht]
VQ: Remaining agenda items postponed until next week
19:32:19 [Zakim]
19:32:20 [Zakim]
19:32:20 [Zakim]
19:32:31 [Zakim]
19:32:32 [Zakim]
19:32:32 [Zakim]
19:32:34 [Zakim]
19:32:40 [timbl_]
Therom 1. A group with n people takes O (n^2) to come to a conclusion.
19:33:03 [Roy]
19:33:08 [timbl_]
Therom 1a. A group with n people takes O m* (n^2) to come to a conclusion. with n-m people at each meeting
19:33:25 [ht]
zakim, bye
19:33:25 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were [INRIA], Ht, DanC, Norm, Roy, [IBM], Vincent, Noah, TimBL, Roy_Fielding, DOrchard
19:33:25 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #tagmem
19:33:50 [ht]
rrsagent, draft minutes
19:33:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ht
19:34:41 [ht]
RRSAgent, make minutes public
19:34:41 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', ht. Try /msg RRSAgent help
19:35:10 [DanC]
I don't think that's been implemented, ht
19:35:24 [DanC]
I think you just have to use ,access
19:35:35 [ht]
Will do -- need to edit anyway
19:36:03 [ht]
I managed to turn Tim into Roy throughout the first hour -- neat trick, hunh!
19:37:41 [DanC]
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Norm has joined #tagmem
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