17:57:52 RRSAgent has joined #tagmem 17:57:52 logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/03/29-tagmem-irc 18:00:17 TAG_Weekly()12:30PM has now started 18:00:24 zakim, please call ht-781 18:00:25 +[INRIA] 18:00:26 ok, ht; the call is being made 18:00:27 +Ht 18:00:38 +DanC 18:00:52 RRSAgent, scribenick ht 18:00:52 I'm logging. I don't understand 'scribenick ht', ht. Try /msg RRSAgent help 18:03:13 scribe: Henry Thompson 18:03:21 +Norm 18:03:26 ScribeNick: ht 18:03:33 Meeting: TAG 18:03:38 Chair: Vincent 18:04:49 +Roy 18:05:25 +[IBM] 18:07:38 Regrets: Ed Rice 18:08:01 zakim, who is on the phone? 18:08:01 On the phone I see [INRIA], Ht, DanC, Norm, Roy, [IBM] 18:08:11 zakim, [I is Vincent 18:08:11 sorry, ht, I do not recognize a party named '[I' 18:08:19 zakim, [IN is Vincent 18:08:19 +Vincent; got it 18:08:22 timbl_ has joined #tagmem 18:08:30 zakim, [IB is Noah 18:08:31 +Noah; got it 18:09:01 VC: Agenda has been revised per DC's suggestions 18:09:16 +TimBL 18:09:32 Topic: Next telcon 18:10:05 VC: 5 April, 1300 EDT 18:10:19 NM: Possible regrets 18:10:39 noah has joined #tagmem 18:10:47 Roy: regrets for next week 18:10:54 DC: Will scribe next week 18:11:44 VC: Minutes from last week? 18:11:53 (it should say chair: vincent rather than SV_MEETING_CHAIR, but not a big deail) 18:12:40 VC: HT had action about where to put minutes 18:13:30 HT: Some progress, proposal next week 18:14:07 +Roy_Fielding 18:14:14 -Roy 18:14:27 HT: This week's will go in W3C date space, as last week 18:14:44 zakim, who is here? 18:14:44 On the phone I see Vincent, Ht, DanC, Norm, Noah, TimBL, Roy_Fielding 18:14:45 On IRC I see noah, timbl_, RRSAgent, Vincent, Zakim, ht, DanC 18:14:46 Topic: Request from WWW2005 for TAG particiipation 18:14:48 Roy has joined #tagmem 18:14:58 (I plan to *not* be there) 18:15:00 I will be in Chiba 18:15:02 not me 18:15:03 Norm has joined #tagmem 18:15:06 VC: Who will be there 18:15:10 Noah will not be in Japan 18:15:23 TBL: Will be at WWW2005. . . 18:15:27 I, alas, will not be in Japan either 18:15:31 Vincent will not be there 18:15:54 ... Doesn't think he will be there for DevDay 18:16:14 VC: Seems like no-one will be there 18:16:32 TBL: Anyone there for rest of conference? 18:17:59 Action: VC to check with DO and ER and, pbly, tell organisers that no-one can be there 18:18:32 Topic: Reviewing WS-Addressing Core etc. 18:18:56 VC: Received request from WS-A WG that we review WS-Addressing Core and SOAP Binding 18:19:22 ... They have extended the Last Call period through mid-May 18:19:34 ... Can we have reviewers for them? 18:19:41 -> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html?type=1#endPointRefs-47 endPointRefs-47: WS-Addressing SOAP binding & app protocols 18:19:46 ... ER has volunteered -- anyone else? 18:20:21 DC: Has looked at one before . . . 18:20:43 ... Not sure I could say anything polite, maybe it's improved since then 18:21:19 NM: We should be watching how identity is being handled in WS-A 18:21:42 -> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2004/ws/addressing/ws-addr-core.html Web Services Addressing 1.0 - Core Editors' copy Date: 2005/03/22 16:22:02 18:22:03 ... I thought there was agreement that ref-prop and ref-param distinction was lost, and agreement that the URI is what determined identity 18:22:08 the "bits go here" text seems to still be there: [[ A reference may contain a number of individual parameters which are associated with the endpoint to facilitate a particular interaction. ]] 18:22:35 ... But the WG says there is more flexibility, while acknowledging the strong position on identity, allows other practices 18:22:49 +DOrchard 18:23:09 ... TAG could/should say "This could be misused, you should say that too" 18:24:06 DO: not me, too close to this 18:24:47 I like Tim's idea: don't just review the document, but instead flag issues we should discuss in TAG meetings/calls 18:24:58 DC: Can we let this hang a few weeks? 18:25:17 VC: Not finished yet, no rush 18:25:31 DO: They are 99% finished, no reason to wait 18:26:17 VC: We will return to this in a few weeks when ER is on call 18:26:47 DO: Happy to help privately or on call/www-tag anyone who is reviewing 18:27:05 Topic: Reviewing XML Query and XSL WG Last Call documents 18:27:26 VC: Paul Cotton asks if we want to review, offers help: 18:27:42 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2005Mar/0028.html [member-only] 18:28:05 VC: Are we interested in reviewing all/any of these? 18:28:16 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/uri/2003Mar/0027.html why the special case for % in fn:escape-uri? 18:28:27 DC: One reason . . . a comment I sent in 2003 18:29:04 ... Two ways to escape URIs, I will check this up in their Last Call 18:29:40 VC: Will publish on 4 April 2005, Last Call lasts 6 weeks thereafter 18:30:02 DC: Will review Functions and Operators insofar as its a URI standard library 18:30:24 They also need to update the references 18:30:31 ... They are proposing to produce namespace documents, we should look at them, I nominate NW 18:31:10 http://www.w3.org/XML/Group/2005/04/WD-xpath-datamodel-20050404/xpath-datatypes.html 18:31:40 NW: I constructed the namespace document, so I'm not the best person to review it 18:31:51 http://www.w3.org/TR/xquery-operators/#func-escape-uri 18:32:13 http://www.w3.org/XML/Group/2005/04/WD-xpath-functions-20050404/xpath-functions.html 18:32:21 ... namespace document has an anchor for every name in F&O 18:33:02 ... pointers are member-only until 4 April 18:33:31 DC: Please point www-tag to this after it's published 18:34:01 VC: So we have DC for F&O -- anyone else? 18:34:29 ... Paul Cotton was only asking if we wanted to review and if so what, not requiring review of the whole suite 18:35:31 NM: F&O is a good target, language docs not likely to have TAG issues, need Schema and Core to look at data model . . . 18:35:44 ACTION DanC: review Functions and Operators insofar as its a URI standard library 18:35:56 VC: That's enough 18:36:36 ACTION: VC to reply to Paul that DC is doing F&O, Norm will call attention to namespace document 18:36:43 Topic: issue URNsAndRegistries-50 18:37:21 reviewing 22 Mar minutes... "their deadline is 14 Apr" 18:37:24 VC: Two actions -- ER to review XRI document, no progress 18:37:42 http://www.w3.org/XML/Group/2005/04/WD-xpath-datamodel-20050404/xpath-datatypes.html -> http://inamidst.com/grddl/demo?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FXML%2FGroup%2F2005%2F04%2FWD-xpath-datamodel-20050404%2Fxpath-datatypes.html 18:37:50 ... Deadline is 14 April, so we need to move 18:38:24 ... HT to produce initial draft with DO 18:38:25 I get an EOFError, timbl_ 18:38:44 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/URNsAndRegistries-50.xml 18:39:11 HT: Barest of beginnings -- next step is to fold in material from DO 18:40:19 ack DanC 18:40:19 DanC, you wanted to suggest VQ let the XRI folks know we're interested but would like an extension beyond 14 Apr to review 18:40:47 DC: 14 April is hard to meet, but they should know we're about to comment 18:40:59 ... Could you (VC) ask them for an extension 18:41:30 ACTION: VC to send note to OASIS TC requesting extension to end of month 18:41:43 s/VC/VQ/ 18:42:21 Topic: Discussion of httpRange-14 18:42:51 VC: We ran out of time two weeks ago, picking up on this now that TBL is here 18:42:53 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html#httpRange-14 18:43:15 -> http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/HTTP-URI.html What do HTTP URIs Identify? 18:43:17 s/VC/VQ/ 18:43:31 (bummer Ed's not here) 18:43:48 VQ: Let's try to develop this in to a finding on httpRange-14 18:44:29 TBL: SWBPG has said they'd like to see resolution that any URI can be used for anything 18:44:42 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2005Mar/0101.html 18:45:29 ... We need understanding amongst TAG not just about httpRange-14, but also an improved glossary -- resources, function of http 18:45:47 ... Looking for formal description of web in SemWeb terms 18:45:55 (some work on formalizing webarch terms http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/fdesc54/ ) 18:46:07 q+ to discuss another compromise 18:46:43 TBL: Compromise between my position that retrieving a URL gets a picture [lost it] 18:47:07 ... Contra position e.g. Dublin Core are using vanilla URL as a property 18:47:08 q+ to ask for clarification of Tim's statement: you should expect a picture 18:47:34 ... TBL replies OK, but you can't reply 200, and you can't give back the relation itself 18:47:53 ... Maybe we should come up with a new return code for this case 18:48:15 ack noah 18:48:15 noah, you wanted to ask for clarification of Tim's statement: you should expect a picture 18:48:19 ... Note that you can't reasonably return the whole WordNet DB 18:48:36 NM: Clarification of picture example 18:49:19 ... Do a get, what comes back is a picture, entitled to expectation that subsequent GETs will also be _some_ kind of picture, although its encoding might change 18:49:48 ... NOT that the URI was really identifying Noah, so almost anything might come back again 18:50:37 NM: Narrow range is the range that returns 200 18:51:07 TBL: Life Sciences identifiers -- instead of complicated scheme, convert to URI, no # there now, not obvious where to put it 18:51:44 ... Namespaces where # doesn't make sense, where / is really sensible 18:52:01 ... Not as architecturally clean as saying all http space is info resources 18:52:05 ack ht 18:52:06 ht, you wanted to discuss another compromise 18:52:58 HT: I hear two positions... 18:53:29 (1) http URIs can be used for both things you normally expect to retriev from and things you don't normally expect to retrieve from 18:54:03 (2) while maybe you could, it reduces confusion if we had some syntactic way to distinguish those two cases 18:54:35 ht: Topic Maps have a special syntax around the *use* of a URI. 18:54:48 ... the topicmap architecture works as (2)... it's not just business-as-usual when you want to point outside the web 18:54:53 (er... now I've lost count) 18:55:09 HT: there are proposals like tdb: from Masinter and wpn: by myself et al... 18:55:47 q? 18:56:08 HT: some of the folks that are opposed to the "use #" position are opposed for [some kind of] reason, so maybe we should state the goal in [some way] ... 18:56:46 q+ to consider that SW applications could accept URIs that indirectly identify concepts through information resources if there is an N:1 relationship between the information resource and the concept and the SW language indicates indirection 18:56:54 q+ To ask a question about role of media types in the use of # 18:57:27 ack Roy 18:57:27 Roy, you wanted to consider that SW applications could accept URIs that indirectly identify concepts through information resources if there is an N:1 relationship between the 18:57:30 ... information resource and the concept and the SW language indicates indirection 18:58:20 sweb: http: 18:58:21 TBL: To look at way of relieving peoples pain, where we keep seeing new schemes as new applications arrive, maybe a new scheme for asking about semantics 18:58:32 (there's also HTTP for setting up telephone calls, called SIP. but that's another story) 18:59:04 HT: yes, that's v. close to the wpn: story 18:59:36 RF: Want to go back to the question of why we want to make the distinction 18:59:59 ... What do we gain by saying "All the http: identifiers have this constraint"? 19:00:25 ... As opposed to saying "We have one http resource which gives information about another http resource"? 19:00:33 TBL: Use cases? 19:00:56 RF: Technology examples -- we could change the language this way, or the usage that way, pros and cons 19:01:16 TBL: Dublin Core is a popular test case 19:02:03 RF: dc:Title is not a relation, its a conceptual thing, if you dereference it you get a page which says: "This is the abstract 'title' property" 19:02:16 s/RF/TBL/ 19:02:54 TBL: We could say -- just put a # there, or use wpn:, or . . . 19:03:09 RF: Those are just 'solutions' -- how does it make anything better? 19:03:27 (found RF's comments that seem 180 degrees away from timbl's position http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Jan/0148.html ) 19:03:46 Here: 19:03:48 http://www.w3.org/2005/moby/dick 19:04:31 { dc:creator ?x } => { ?x a :Answer }. 19:06:06 HT: [Moby Dick vs _Moby Dick_ example] 19:06:18 But Henry, has anyone proposed the >same< URI for the whale and the book text? I don't think so. The question is, I think, whether the possibility of a slimy slippery non-information whale can be eliminated either by inspection of the scheme and/or by rc=200 19:06:57 Noah, see Tim's example! 19:07:24 RF: So you dereference, and see notes about reading _Moby Dick_ the book 19:08:22 TBL: If we don't have _some_ convention, what's to stop me using the above URL for the book 19:08:46 which makes ... dc:creator false 19:09:11 TBL: So the URI clearly identifies what you get when you retrieve, i.e. the web page 19:09:30 q? 19:09:30 RF: Can you extrapolate this to all examples of http: I don't think so 19:09:30 ack noah 19:09:31 noah, you wanted to ask a question about role of media types in the use of # 19:10:17 NM: Mechanistic view of the # position: 19:10:40 ... 1) WebArch says interp of fragid is determined by media type of thing retrieved; 19:11:19 ... 2) # proponents say if I want to talk about the whale I'll use a # 19:11:20 racine 19:12:04 ... 3) LHS is a URI, I do a retrieval, something comes back, with a media type 19:12:16 my bumper sticker explanation is: foo#bar refers to what bar refers to in foo 19:12:31 ... What do we need to know about this media type wrt the # convention? 19:13:11 ... Since I know I can't put the puppy in the wire, I still need _something_ there which the #puppy connects to 19:13:46 ... What's the connection between the media type and what kind of media types can I deploy that makes this work 19:14:18 ... Surely I can't use text/html, because that media type says # resolves to fragments 19:15:08 ... Surely I can't use text/html, because that media type says # resolves to fragments 19:15:41 DO: ref Abstract Components finding, advice to media type definers 19:16:26 NM: Suppose we said we had a class of resources that always returned a 1-byte 0, with a media type which tells you you get abstract referents from fragids 19:16:36 TBL: That's twisted 19:17:10 TBL: See DC's foo#bar above, media type tells you how to interpret what you get as foo, and how to find bar in it 19:17:42 ... RDF says bar refers into the universe of discourse 19:18:16 NM: I want to refer to people, I design a media type that allows this, can I do that w/o having 4billion parts, in some explicit way? 19:18:35 DC: You could do the 1-byte story, but it's unlikely to work very well 19:18:55 NM: You're telling me to ground it in the document, how? 19:19:16 DC: WebArch doesn't guarantee to allow you to solve your problem your way 19:19:56 TBL: Possible way, in the language you say after the # identifies something in this space, could be an algorithm, not a navigation story 19:20:34 ... So the spec. could be to formulate a SPARQL query 19:20:53 NM: So racine is always the same, why not move it in to the media type? 19:21:23 TBL: No, media type is ...rdf, [missed the rest] 19:21:51 NM: Document is rdf or sparql query, #Noah is parameter 19:21:58 DC: Reduces to 1-byte case 19:22:03 s/1-byte/0-byte/ 19:22:32 q+ to worry about weakness of media type 19:22:47 (I hope we get to talking about what to write soonish) 19:22:52 q+ to invert the moby dick example by taking the original text of Moby Dick and decorate it with the original author, publisher, and date metadata and place it on an HTTP server 19:23:19 TBL, NM: scribe missed this passage, sorry 19:24:21 TBL: Reading document and understanding it is the way forward, but navigation within it is not necessarily what the fragment will do 19:24:40 ack DanC 19:24:40 DanC, you wanted to ask RF about XML signature algorithm identifiers 19:24:50 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Jan/0148.html use of fragments as names is irresponsible 19:25:12 . http://www.w3.org/2000/09/xmldsig-more#... 19:25:34 DC: XML Sig algorithm identifiers, with # in them, I recall Roy saying use / there 19:25:36 ack roy 19:25:36 Roy, you wanted to invert the moby dick example by taking the original text of Moby Dick and decorate it with the original author, publisher, and date metadata and place it on an 19:25:40 ... HTTP server 19:26:11 RF: If using defining examples, use plausible and thorough ones 19:26:43 ... Stipulate we produce a full electronic reconstruction of a particular edition of Moby Dick? 19:26:55 TBL: In that case there's no argument 19:27:16 RF: There should be _some_ -- it's still not a book, it's a web page 19:27:25 TBL: But it's the Work of Art 19:27:48 ack ht 19:27:48 ht, you wanted to worry about weakness of media type 19:28:44 Henry says: depending on the media type makes me nervous, because sometimes I can't dereference 19:29:09 Another time Henry (offline) 19:29:46 VQ: Making progress -- can we work from existing doc't (DesignIssues/HTTP_URI), or start from scratch? 19:29:51 DO: Ponder more 19:29:55 TBL: Discuss more 19:30:32 TBL: We're not going to reach conclusion in 5 minutes 19:30:49 VQ: More discussion another time 19:31:21 DC: One part of goal was to bring new members on board, so we go again when we have ER with us 19:31:41 DC: It helped to have two weeks notice -- next time? 19:31:51 [all]: Yes, next week 19:32:06 VQ: Remaining agenda items postponed until next week 19:32:19 -DanC 19:32:20 -Noah 19:32:20 -DOrchard 19:32:31 -Norm 19:32:32 -Vincent 19:32:32 -Roy_Fielding 19:32:34 -TimBL 19:32:40 Therom 1. A group with n people takes O (n^2) to come to a conclusion. 19:33:03 units? 19:33:08 Therom 1a. A group with n people takes O m* (n^2) to come to a conclusion. with n-m people at each meeting 19:33:25 zakim, bye 19:33:25 leaving. As of this point the attendees were [INRIA], Ht, DanC, Norm, Roy, [IBM], Vincent, Noah, TimBL, Roy_Fielding, DOrchard 19:33:25 Zakim has left #tagmem 19:33:50 rrsagent, draft minutes 19:33:50 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/03/29-tagmem-minutes.html ht 19:34:41 RRSAgent, make minutes public 19:34:41 I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', ht. Try /msg RRSAgent help 19:35:10 I don't think that's been implemented, ht 19:35:24 I think you just have to use ,access 19:35:35 Will do -- need to edit anyway 19:36:03 I managed to turn Tim into Roy throughout the first hour -- neat trick, hunh! 19:37:41 heh 19:38:33 timbl_ has joined #tagmem 20:26:01 Norm has joined #tagmem 20:52:57 ndw_ has joined #tagmem