14:28:29 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dawg
14:29:27 <Zakim> SW_DAWG()9:30AM has now started
14:29:31 <TomAdams> TomAdams has joined #dawg
14:29:36 <Zakim> +NickG
14:29:59 <Zakim> +DanC
14:30:01 <SteveH> Zakim, NickG is SteveH
14:30:01 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it
14:30:11 <Yoshio> Yoshio has joined #dawg
14:30:30 <Zakim> +??P1
14:31:09 <Zakim> +??P2
14:31:26 <Zakim> +Andy_Seaborne
14:31:32 <Zakim> +Yoshio
14:31:39 <DaveB> DaveB has joined #dawg
14:32:44 <Zakim> +[Tucana]
14:32:53 <TomAdams> zakim, Tucana is TomAdams
14:32:53 <Zakim> +TomAdams; got it
14:33:07 <Zakim> + +1.617.629.aaaa
14:33:37 <DanC> Zakim, take up item 1
14:33:37 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Convene, take roll, review records and agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/0543.html" taken up [from DanC]
14:34:00 <Zakim> +??P7
14:34:09 <DanC> Zakim, ??P7 is DaveB
14:34:09 <Zakim> +DaveB; got it
14:34:20 <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
14:34:20 <Zakim> On the phone I see SteveH, DanC, SimonR, JanneS, Andy_Seaborne, Yoshio, TomAdams, ericP, DaveB
14:34:49 <AndyS> Kendall: "I have to give potential regrets for tomorrow;"
14:35:08 <SimonR> SteveH volunteers to scribe on 2005-01-11.
14:35:28 <SimonR> Previous minutes ACCEPTED.
14:35:38 <DanC> agenda + ftf4, 5
14:35:54 <DanC> Zakim, next item
14:35:54 <Zakim> agendum 2. "XML Results format" taken up [from DanC]
14:36:04 <DaveB> published http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-rdf-sparql-XMLres-20041221/
14:36:42 <ericP> latest: http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-XMLres/
14:37:51 <DanC> fielding comments? DaveB not on the 1st line of defense
14:38:04 <DanC> Zakim, next item
14:38:04 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Protocol Spec" taken up [from DanC]
14:39:33 <SimonR> Publishing moratorium at W3C will keep things from being published until Christmas.
14:40:13 <DaveB> is http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/proto-wd/ newest?
14:40:27 <SimonR> EricP's ACTION to publish protocol CONTINUES.
14:40:40 <DanC> Zakim, next item
14:40:40 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Test suite maintenance" taken up [from DanC]
14:40:49 <SimonR> EricP estimates 50% change of getting it published by the 11th.
14:41:09 <ericP> i put turtle links into http://unagi/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/README.html
14:41:56 <SimonR> change/chance
14:43:19 <SimonR> RESOLVED to update tests/data/examples/ex2-4a.rq per 0517
14:43:36 <DaveB> it's http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data/examples/ex2-4a.rq
14:43:45 <Yoshio> * Hmm... is it just me who can't go to the http://unagi/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/README.html ?
14:43:48 <DanC> ACTION DaveB: update ex2-4a.rq
14:43:56 <SimonR> (And the list message is http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/0517.html)
14:44:02 <DanC> Zakim, next item
14:44:02 <Zakim> agendum 5. "UNSAID" taken up [from DanC]
14:44:06 <Yoshio> danc: yes
14:44:53 <SimonR> EricP got feedback from PatH about UNSAID; Pat was worried about damaging monotonicity.
14:45:01 <DaveB> (comma has gone in ex2-ra.rq)
14:45:07 <DaveB> (ex2-4a.rq)
14:46:04 <DanC> action -1
14:46:04 <SimonR> PatH and Thomas are discussing it; should a QL allow you to arrive at conclusions you might rescind with more information?  Eric personally thinks that it more useful to permit non-monotonicity.
14:46:15 <JosD> JosD has joined #dawg
14:46:26 <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
14:46:26 <Zakim> On the phone I see SteveH, DanC, SimonR, JanneS, Andy_Seaborne, Yoshio, TomAdams, ericP, DaveB
14:46:36 <SimonR> EricP plans to wait for PatH & Thomas to finish their exploration of the issue.
14:47:13 <Zakim> +JosD
14:48:20 <SimonR> JanneS favors leaving UNSAID out.
14:48:48 <SimonR> AndyS is neutral on the feature.
14:49:12 <DanC> SteveH doesn't like it for "a lot of reasons"
14:49:19 <DanC> DanC: fun to play with, but not time to standardize yet
14:49:55 <SimonR> Yoshio favors retaining UNSAID.
14:50:22 <SimonR> DaveB favors leaving UNSAID out.
14:50:56 <SimonR> JosD would be happy to leave it out, and agrees with PatH's analysis.
14:51:12 <DaveB> (ptr to PatH's analysis msg?)
14:51:37 <DaveB> PatH msg http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/0534.html
14:52:04 <DaveB> SteveH: that test will die, I have a pending action to do that and un-cvs commit changes
14:52:28 <SteveH> DaveB, ok, well I've fixed it for now
14:52:45 <SimonR> EricP favors retaining it, but will go with what the WG wants.
14:52:49 <DanC> 4.3 Non-existent Triples http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/UseCases#d4.3
14:52:49 <Yoshio> Hmm, I'm not so strongly stick to it, though I found it interesting... so if consensus is needed, I can do without UNSAID... I hear substantial opinion against it
14:53:21 <ericP> EricP: UNSAID was trivial to implement
14:56:01 <SimonR> EricP suggests that constraint-checking is a need for UNSAID; SteveH says this can be done with OPTIONAL.
14:56:22 <ericP> DanC: i note that SOURCE and UNSAID are symmetrical -- if you put one in, people will expect the other
14:56:55 <ericP> s/constraint-checking/consistency checking/
14:57:14 <DanC> ACTION EricP: own (i.e. propose resolution to) UNSAID issue
14:57:33 <Yoshio> * UNSAID reflects the open world assumption, so it is charactristic and interesting... and even educational
14:57:50 <DanC> DanC suggests test cases that follow use cases that motivate "non-existent triples"
14:59:16 <JosD> test cases in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/0538.html
14:59:33 <SimonR> ACTION SteveH: add DanC test from list message 538
14:59:50 <DaveB> JosD: can you please write tests in sparql, I find n3ql hard to read
15:00:31 <DaveB> thanks
15:00:39 <SimonR> ACTION JosD: review message 538 tests
15:00:47 <DanC> Zakim, next item
15:00:47 <Zakim> agendum 6. "Disjunction" taken up [from DanC]
15:02:32 <Yoshio> what's the poll again, please?
15:02:51 <Yoshio> to kick them out?
15:02:54 <ericP> yes
15:03:01 <SimonR> Poll is, would you object to removing disjunction, in order to close that issue?
15:03:15 <Yoshio> yes 
15:03:31 <SimonR> Objections from SimonR and EricP to remove disjunction.
15:03:36 <Yoshio> and me 
15:03:48 <Yoshio> I object
15:06:27 <ericP> and perhap Tom (I'm not sure what he had said)
15:06:40 <SimonR> SteveH's ownership of disjunction issue continues.
15:06:56 <SimonR> (Yes, I believe TomA and Toshio as well.)
15:07:07 <Yoshio> s/Toshio/Yoshio/
15:07:16 <DaveB> ericP can you add some words re what knd of disj you are testing in your test - shortcut disj or whatever you call it?
15:07:20 <SimonR> ACTION EricP: add test from list message 464 to the test suite.
15:07:31 <ericP> DaveB, UNION
15:08:11 <SimonR> Both SteveH DaveB favor to removal of disjunction.
15:08:23 <SimonR> to/the
15:08:25 <DanC> Zakim, next item
15:08:25 <Zakim> agendum 7. "SPARQL SOURCE Issue" taken up [from DanC]
15:08:30 <ericP> DaveB, I have a couple other forms, but I didn't include them in test
15:09:19 <SimonR> DaveB's action continues.
15:09:55 <DaveB> hmm, test case for protocol...
15:09:59 <SimonR> Janne's action continues.
15:10:17 <SimonR> DanC has no progress on SOURCE formalization to report -- also CONTINUES
15:11:19 <SimonR> SteveH is willing to integrate protocol tests with the language tests, eventually.
15:11:25 <DanC> Zakim, next item
15:11:25 <Zakim> agendum 8. "issue languageProtocolName" taken up [from DanC]
15:12:10 <SimonR> JanneS asks for expressions of interest in a JDBC driver for SPARQL?
15:12:13 <DanC> agenda + JDBC open source... [Janne]
15:13:05 <ericP> +1
15:13:51 <SimonR> Straw poll for the "SPARQL" name.
15:15:04 <ericP> we have a name that engages semweb developers who are german, swedish, or 12 year old girls
15:15:13 <SimonR> PROPOSED to adopt the name -- RESOLVED without objection or abstention.
15:15:27 <SimonR> ACTION AndyS to update SPARQL language document
15:15:47 <Yoshio> * and even Japanese ^_^
15:15:53 <DanC> ACTION EricP: ask Kendall to update protocol spec w.r.t. SPARQL expansion
15:15:54 <SimonR> ACTION SteveH to update test document with SPARQL name
15:16:36 <SimonR> ACTION DaveB: to update XMl results document with SPARQL name
15:16:58 <SimonR> ACTION AndyS: to update SPARQL language document with name
15:16:59 <DanC> Zakim, agenda?
15:16:59 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
15:17:00 <Zakim> 8. issue languageProtocolName [from DanC]
15:17:01 <Zakim> 9. SPARQL syntax, QL pub plans [from DanC]
15:17:02 <Zakim> 10. ftf4, 5 [from DanC]
15:17:03 <Zakim> 11. JDBC open source... [from Janne via DanC]
15:17:09 <DanC> Zakim, take up agendum 10
15:17:09 <Zakim> agendum 10. "ftf4, 5" taken up [from DanC]
15:17:53 <Yoshio> yes, where are folks going to stay?
15:17:58 <SimonR> DanC will reopen the F2F questionnaire so that last-minute hotel detials can be communicated.
15:18:04 <SteveH> Yoshio, I'm staying at the raddison
15:18:15 <Yoshio> Helsinki? 
15:18:19 <SteveH> yes
15:18:36 <Yoshio> Is it reasonable to stay in Helshinki?
15:18:50 <TomAdams> I'm in Helsinki also. Radisson SAS Plaz.a
15:18:55 <SteveH> I think so, its not far
15:18:55 <Yoshio> s/Helshinki/Helsinki/
15:19:09 <Yoshio> Thanks (Kiitos ^_^)
15:19:59 <TomAdams> I found prices unreasonable for all of Finland with the US exchange rate ;)
15:20:00 <SimonR> DanC: F2F5 -- expect to be meeting Monday and Tuesday, with agreement from EricP.
15:20:14 <DaveB> (I just cvs commt the untrusted graph tests; will try them out before announcing them for real)
15:20:21 <DanC> Zakim, close this agendum
15:20:21 <Zakim> agendum 10 closed
15:20:22 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:20:23 <Zakim> 8. issue languageProtocolName [from DanC]
15:20:28 <DanC> Zakim, close item 8
15:20:28 <Zakim> agendum 8 closed
15:20:29 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:20:30 <Zakim> 9. SPARQL syntax, QL pub plans [from DanC]
15:20:40 <Zakim> -JanneS
15:20:43 <DanC> Zakim, take up item 9
15:20:43 <Zakim> agendum 9. "SPARQL syntax, QL pub plans" taken up [from DanC]
15:22:19 <SimonR> AndyS: In the process of addressing PatH's comments; easy ones already treated, getting more difficult to integrate the remaining ones.
15:22:41 <SimonR> AndyS estimates well over halfway.
15:23:37 <ericP> SteveH, data consistency tests with UNSAID and OPTIONAL -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/0554.html
15:24:59 <SimonR> SimonR's ACTIONS (on XML result format and scalar constraints both continue)
15:25:08 <SteveH> ericP, I was talking about the specific "do I have a emain addr for htis person" case
15:25:23 <ericP> roger
15:26:47 <SimonR> DanC considers TimBL's comment on SOURCE to have been appropriately dealt with.
15:26:55 <SteveH> DaveB, do you want those in the doc now?
15:27:09 <DaveB> SteveH: yeah
15:27:26 <DaveB> SteveH: this time I checked the turtle was correct
15:27:28 <DanC> DanC withdraws his proposal to publish, given that the editor's todo list looks significant
15:27:46 <SimonR> Too many "to do" items on SPARQL language document to resolve to publish this time.
15:27:52 <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
15:27:52 <Zakim> agendum 11. "JDBC open source..." taken up [from Janne]
15:28:00 <DanC> Zakim, close this agendum
15:28:00 <Zakim> agendum 11 closed
15:28:01 <Zakim> I see nothing remaining on the agenda
15:28:29 <DanC> next meeting 11 Jan
15:28:38 <Yoshio> Hyvaa joulua!
15:28:39 <Zakim> -JosD
15:28:40 <Zakim> -DaveB
15:28:41 <Zakim> -DanC
15:28:50 <SimonR> ADJOURNED
15:28:57 <Zakim> -TomAdams
15:28:58 <Zakim> -Yoshio
15:29:02 <Zakim> -SimonR
15:29:28 <SteveH> DaveB, http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/#untrusted-graphs-001
15:30:22 <DaveB> should be a data/source-named in that url I think?
15:32:22 <SteveH> bye
15:32:25 <Zakim> -SteveH
15:33:11 <DaveB> DaveB has joined #dawg
15:35:54 <DanC> I believe the question I put regarding the name included the expansion, Simon.
15:36:06 <DanC> pls make that clear in the edited minutes.
15:36:28 <SteveH> DaveB, what did you mean by should have data/source-named in, were you expecting  http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/#data/source-named/untrusted-graphs-001?
15:38:10 <DaveB> I guess so, if you use the manifest.n3 in data/source-named/ as the definition
15:38:24 <DaveB> you're the editor :)
15:50:08 <SimonR> Sorry Dan -- was that "Simple Protocol And RDF Query Language"?
15:50:43 <AndyS> No - it's "SPARQL Protocol And RDF Query Language"
15:51:11 <DanC> indeed, from the agenda: "PROPOSED: SPARQL Protocol and RDF Query Language"
15:51:22 <SimonR> I heard both during the meeting, ta for the clarification.
15:51:36 <DanC> sure
15:54:58 <ericP> http://www.radissonsas.com
16:01:31 <SteveH> DaveB, I've been ensuring that all the local names are unique, but I guess that would be safer
16:07:22 <Zakim> -ericP
16:07:23 <Zakim> -Andy_Seaborne
16:07:24 <Zakim> SW_DAWG()9:30AM has ended
16:07:25 <Zakim> Attendees were DanC, SteveH, SimonR, JanneS, Andy_Seaborne, Yoshio, [Tucana], TomAdams, +1.617.629.aaaa, ericP, DaveB, JosD
16:07:42 <DanC> RRSAgent, make logs world-access
16:07:55 <DanC> Zakim, bye
16:07:55 <Zakim> Zakim has left #dawg
16:07:59 <DanC> RRSAgent, bye
16:07:59 <RRSAgent> I see 7 open action items:
16:07:59 <RRSAgent> ACTION: EricP to own (i.e. propose resolution to) UNSAID issue [2]
16:07:59 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/21-dawg-irc#T14-57-14
16:07:59 <RRSAgent> ACTION: SteveH to add DanC test from list message 538 [3]
16:07:59 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/21-dawg-irc#T14-59-33
16:07:59 <RRSAgent> ACTION: JosD to review message 538 tests [4]
16:07:59 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/21-dawg-irc#T15-00-39
16:07:59 <RRSAgent> ACTION: EricP to add test from list message 464 to the test suite. [5]
16:07:59 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/21-dawg-irc#T15-07-20
16:07:59 <RRSAgent> ACTION: EricP to ask Kendall to update protocol spec w.r.t. SPARQL expansion [6]
16:07:59 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/21-dawg-irc#T15-15-53
16:07:59 <RRSAgent> ACTION: DaveB to to update XMl results document with SPARQL name [7]
16:07:59 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/21-dawg-irc#T15-16-36
16:07:59 <RRSAgent> ACTION: AndyS to to update SPARQL language document with name [8]
16:07:59 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/21-dawg-irc#T15-16-58