IRC log of wai-wcag on 2004-12-15
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 14:59:10 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
- 14:59:17 [bcaldwell]
- RRSAgent, make log world
- 15:00:04 [Zakim]
- WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has now started
- 15:00:05 [Zakim]
- +[Microsoft]
- 15:00:34 [bcaldwell]
- zakim, [Microsoft] Jenae
- 15:00:34 [Zakim]
- I don't understand '[Microsoft] Jenae', bcaldwell
- 15:00:39 [Zakim]
- + +000012aaaa - is perhaps [IPcaller]
- 15:00:42 [Zakim]
- -[IPcaller]
- 15:00:43 [Zakim]
- +[IPcaller]
- 15:00:50 [Zakim]
- + +1.267.983.aabb - is perhaps Neil?
- 15:00:52 [bcaldwell]
- zakim, [Microsoft] is Jenae
- 15:00:52 [Zakim]
- +Jenae; got it
- 15:01:19 [Becky_Gibson]
- Becky_Gibson has joined #wai-wcag
- 15:01:27 [wendy]
- wendy has joined #wai-wcag
- 15:01:34 [Zakim]
- +??P28
- 15:01:38 [Zakim]
- +Becky_Gibson
- 15:01:43 [bcaldwell]
- zakim, ?P28 is Ben
- 15:01:43 [Zakim]
- sorry, bcaldwell, I do not recognize a party named '?P28'
- 15:01:45 [Zakim]
- +Alex_Li
- 15:01:51 [bcaldwell]
- zakim, ??P28 is ben
- 15:01:51 [Zakim]
- +ben; got it
- 15:01:57 [Zakim]
- +Tim_Boland
- 15:01:59 [bcaldwell]
- zakim, I am ben
- 15:01:59 [Zakim]
- ok, bcaldwell, I now associate you with ben
- 15:02:11 [wendy]
- ben? chris? becky? i'm not feeling well, so am not going to make the meeting this morning. could you pass word to michael?
- 15:02:15 [wendy]
- RRSAgent, make log world
- 15:02:24 [bcaldwell]
- sure thing
- 15:02:30 [Becky_Gibson]
- sure, Wendy, feel better
- 15:02:35 [bcaldwell]
- zakim, who is here?
- 15:02:35 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Jenae, [IPcaller], Neil?, ben, Becky_Gibson, Alex_Li, Tim_Boland
- 15:02:37 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see wendy, Becky_Gibson, RRSAgent, ChrisR, Zakim, bcaldwell
- 15:02:43 [wendy]
- If there are any questions for me, please send me email and I'll get back to you later today.
- 15:02:58 [wendy]
- thanks.
- 15:02:59 [Zakim]
- +??P34
- 15:03:05 [Zakim]
- +Michael_Cooper
- 15:03:17 [Michael]
- Michael has joined #wai-wcag
- 15:03:24 [bcaldwell]
- zakim, ??P34 is Allistair
- 15:03:24 [Zakim]
- +Allistair; got it
- 15:03:28 [Zakim]
- +??P36
- 15:03:44 [bcaldwell]
- zakim, ??P36 is David
- 15:03:44 [Zakim]
- +David; got it
- 15:04:08 [ken]
- ken has joined #wai-wcag
- 15:04:29 [bcaldwell]
- zakim, [IPcaller] is Chris
- 15:04:29 [Zakim]
- +Chris; got it
- 15:04:46 [Zakim]
- +Ken_Kipnes
- 15:05:27 [David]
- David has joined #wai-wcag
- 15:05:37 [David]
- test
- 15:05:45 [Zakim]
- +John_Slatin
- 15:08:37 [AliG]
- AliG has joined #wai-wcag
- 15:08:46 [bcaldwell]
- agenda + "Review results straw polls"
- 15:08:46 [AliG]
- AliG has left #wai-wcag
- 15:09:12 [AliG]
- AliG has joined #wai-wcag
- 15:09:15 [bcaldwell]
- agenda + "XHTML compliance of test cases
- 15:09:15 [bcaldwell]
- "
- 15:09:37 [nms]
- nms has joined #wai-wcag
- 15:09:45 [bcaldwell]
- agenda + "Review more test files - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004OctDec/0554.html"
- 15:10:28 [bcaldwell]
- agenda + "Work on holes in mapping success criteria to techniques - http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2004/11/19-sc-techniques-mapping.html"
- 15:11:12 [Tim]
- Tim has joined #wai-wcag
- 15:12:39 [bcaldwell]
- next agendum
- 15:13:04 [bcaldwell]
- meaning of optional?
- 15:13:29 [bcaldwell]
- js - not absolutely required for conformance, right?
- 15:14:38 [bcaldwell]
- if test is optional, does that mean they have satisfied an optional req. in the wcag spec beyond basic conformance?
- 15:15:03 [bcaldwell]
- mc - in theory, an optional test might be the result of an optional requirement, but not yet clear
- 15:15:16 [bcaldwell]
- js - no such thing as an optional requirement
- 15:15:52 [bcaldwell]
- QA - requires that specs describe what is required and what is optional
- 15:16:40 [Michael]
- First batch: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/group1/results
- 15:18:41 [bcaldwell]
- Test 3 - Alt text must be short
- 15:18:49 [bcaldwell]
- ? how to define/quantify short
- 15:19:06 [bcaldwell]
- jw - JAWS default line length -- 150 characters
- 15:19:09 [Tim]
- need to quantify what 'short' means (so that it's testable)
- 15:20:15 [bcaldwell]
- chris is keeping tests up to date with status
- 15:20:24 [bcaldwell]
- no decision yet on test 3
- 15:21:01 [bcaldwell]
- what is the difference between optional and kill?
- 15:21:30 [bcaldwell]
- bg - sometimes used optional because the test needs work
- 15:22:06 [bcaldwell]
- tim - is there a test for meaningful alt text?
- 15:22:21 [bcaldwell]
- js - yes, discussion on list
- 15:23:21 [bcaldwell]
- test 6
- 15:24:53 [bcaldwell]
- test 16 - bg - need to define decorative that mirrors the language in the SC
- 15:25:41 [bcaldwell]
- sc - need to clarify different ways to define null alt in test files - suggest we be more restrictive to define null as "" (nothing between quotation marks)
- 15:26:32 [bcaldwell]
- HTML/XHTML specs use "empty string ("")"
- 15:26:59 [ChrisR]
- alternate text should be the empty string ("").
- 15:27:08 [bcaldwell]
- action Chris - replace "null alt" with "empty string ("")."
- 15:27:23 [Zakim]
- -Neil?
- 15:27:25 [bcaldwell]
- action Chris: replace "null alt" with "empty string ("")."
- 15:27:46 [bcaldwell]
- test 178 - everyone votes for priority 1
- 15:28:30 [bcaldwell]
- al - proposed correction to test
- 15:28:54 [Zakim]
- + +1.267.983.aacc - is perhaps Neil?
- 15:28:55 [bcaldwell]
- action Chris: correct 178-2.html per Alex's comments
- 15:29:13 [bcaldwell]
- ag - is priority 1 - priority 3 really relevant for tests?
- 15:29:45 [bcaldwell]
- mc - we didn't define things very well - mtg. in Dublin was context - what I did was take priorities to mean the same thing they did in WCAG 1.0
- 15:30:36 [bcaldwell]
- ag - relevancy rating needed to identify whether the test is useful as well?
- 15:31:01 [bcaldwell]
- tim - recommend define it on the straw polls, my assumption was that these priorities related to WCAG 2.0
- 15:32:38 [bcaldwell]
- mc - intended to be a straw poll only, not formal, just gathering ideas - by polling this way, we've had issues with tests inheriting priority from 2.0 guidelines - prioritization is a useful way of helping us to understand the test and helps identify problems
- 15:32:53 [bcaldwell]
- ag - useful to then vote on whether the test actually supports the technique
- 15:33:13 [bcaldwell]
- mc - identifying a test as "kill" suggests that it doesn't support a technique
- 15:34:52 [bcaldwell]
- tim - testing guidelines not techniques
- 15:35:16 [bcaldwell]
- al, bc - agree
- 15:35:37 [bcaldwell]
- js - assigning priority 1 implies necessary and sufficient for testing the criteria?
- 15:35:46 [bcaldwell]
- mc - not necessarily sufficient
- 15:36:32 [bcaldwell]
- js - need to get clear about what the terms in straw polls mean
- 15:36:47 [bcaldwell]
- mc - agree, if we continue using this process, we should address these issues
- 15:37:15 [bcaldwell]
- ag - each test is designed to support some part of a technique
- 15:38:08 [Zakim]
- +Don_Evans
- 15:38:17 [bcaldwell]
- cr - each test has a testable statement in it, it is the expected results
- 15:38:46 [DonFEvans]
- DonFEvans has joined #wai-wcag
- 15:38:56 [DonFEvans]
- DonFEvans has joined #wai-wcag
- 15:39:23 [DonFEvans]
- DonFEvans has joined #wai-wcag
- 15:39:41 [bcaldwell]
- tim - formalize use of "must" "should" "may"
- 15:40:17 [DonFEvans]
- DonFEvans has joined #wai-wcag
- 15:40:37 [bcaldwell]
- js - test 178, remove "must" from test
- 15:41:43 [bcaldwell]
- js - can we agree that removing must is what we want to do?
- 15:42:03 [bcaldwell]
- tim - needs to be quick and easy for an author to determine whether the test has been passed
- 15:42:16 [bcaldwell]
- ag - agree that we should remove musts and shoulds
- 15:43:04 [bcaldwell]
- bc - shoulds may indicate optionality
- 15:43:28 [bcaldwell]
- ns - ex. test 10 "image must not flicker" should be "image does not flicker"
- 15:44:23 [Zakim]
- -Alex_Li
- 15:44:28 [bcaldwell]
- should be specific about whether true or false outcomes are required
- 15:44:49 [Zakim]
- +Alex_Li
- 15:45:10 [bcaldwell]
- phrase all questions so that answer is true?
- 15:46:17 [bcaldwell]
- zakim, who is making noise?
- 15:46:30 [Zakim]
- bcaldwell, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 13 (4%), Don_Evans (15%), ben (4%), Tim_Boland (15%), Allistair (56%), Michael_Cooper (24%), John_Slatin (0%)
- 15:46:54 [bcaldwell]
- zakim, mute Allistair
- 15:46:54 [Zakim]
- Allistair should now be muted
- 15:47:37 [bcaldwell]
- js - my understanding of what we see as a page may be multiple delivery units
- 15:47:45 [Tim]
- What level of granularity of content are we talking about for conformance (re:
- 15:48:09 [Tim]
- preciseness of "delivery unit" term)?
- 15:48:18 [bcaldwell]
- js - conformance claim for authored unit can only be as high as the lowest authored unit on the page
- 15:49:19 [ChrisR]
- test status: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/tests/checkstatus.html
- 15:50:13 [bcaldwell]
- mc - stop here, review group 2 of tests next meeting?
- 15:50:57 [bcaldwell]
- next agendum
- 15:51:38 [bcaldwell]
- zakim, take up agendum 2
- 15:51:38 [Zakim]
- agendum 2. ""XHTML compliance of test cases" taken up [from bcaldwell]
- 15:52:55 [bcaldwell]
- which version? XHTML 1.0?
- 15:53:02 [bcaldwell]
- cases where XHTML 1.1 would be needed?
- 15:54:35 [bcaldwell]
- neil - server type - HTML or XHTML?
- 15:55:19 [bcaldwell]
- mc - almost certainly text/html due to issues with application/xhtml
- 15:55:44 [bcaldwell]
- js - issues with "lang" attribute and "xml:lang"?
- 15:56:39 [Tim]
- I need to sign off now..bye
- 15:56:50 [bcaldwell]
- resolved: use XHTML 1.0 for the test files unless there is a specific reason to use a different DTD - server as text/html unless reason to do otherwise
- 15:56:50 [Zakim]
- -Tim_Boland
- 15:57:01 [Tim]
- Tim has left #wai-wcag
- 15:57:21 [bcaldwell]
- next agendum
- 15:58:22 [bcaldwell]
- zakim, take up agendum 3
- 15:58:22 [Zakim]
- agendum 3. ""Review more test files - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004OctDec/0554.html"" taken up [from bcaldwell]
- 15:58:37 [bcaldwell]
- test 15 - http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/tests/test15.html
- 15:59:54 [bcaldwell]
- discussion on list about role of "title" attribute and description of destination of a link
- 16:01:25 [bcaldwell]
- js - concern is that this applies to both AT and non-AT users
- 16:02:38 [DonFEvans]
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- 16:03:03 [bcaldwell]
- mc - link text should identify destination of link
- 16:04:43 [bcaldwell]
- guideline 3.2, level 2, item 6 - The destination of each link is identified through words or phrases that either occur in the link or can be programmatically determined.
- 16:05:13 [bcaldwell]
- js - as someone who uses a screenreader, the user experience where what you hear, is "link, graphic, drawing of a house" would make you crazy.
- 16:06:00 [ChrisR]
- MathML: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/tests/test135.html
- 16:06:15 [bcaldwell]
- Test 135 - Use MathML not images for math.
- 16:06:39 [bcaldwell]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/tests/test135.html
- 16:07:22 [bcaldwell]
- ns - test currently includes text someone would say if they looked at the image -- both tests are redundant
- 16:07:55 [bcaldwell]
- ns - title is use MathML, not images.
- 16:08:05 [bcaldwell]
- js - so if you have an image of math, it should fail the test
- 16:09:13 [bcaldwell]
- mc second test - should remove both the image and the text because when a screenreader hits it it would read that math.
- 16:09:43 [bcaldwell]
- js - is match scalable for low vision?
- 16:09:47 [bcaldwell]
- ns - yes
- 16:10:25 [bcaldwell]
- mc - technique level, we may want to keep some redundancy to illustrate
- 16:12:12 [bcaldwell]
- bc - what is fallback for MathML when UA can't render it?
- 16:12:43 [Zakim]
- -Neil?
- 16:13:33 [bcaldwell]
- back to test 15
- 16:14:52 [David_]
- David_ has joined #wai-wcag
- 16:15:56 [bcaldwell]
- test should be consistent with language of success criterion
- 16:16:49 [bcaldwell]
- criterion says, "For all non-text content that is functional, such as graphical links or buttons, text alternatives serve the same purpose as the non-text content."
- 16:19:24 [bcaldwell]
- bc - 2 tests? one for level 1, guideline 1.1 that tests "serve the same purpose" and one for guideline 3.2, level 2, item 6 about describing the link destination
- 16:20:31 [Zakim]
- -Alex_Li
- 16:20:57 [Zakim]
- +Alex_Li
- 16:22:52 [bcaldwell]
- need additional tests around this, recc. we associate link destination test with guideline 3.2
- 16:23:15 [bcaldwell]
- do we also need a test for guideline 1.1?
- 16:24:45 [Zakim]
- -Allistair
- 16:24:52 [bcaldwell]
- need to clarify what process for determining difference between functional and decorative non-text content
- 16:25:59 [bcaldwell]
- mc - continue to have test for 1.1 about alt text in image links, then need tests around quality of links in general (incl. from alt text in images, link text itself, etc.) that relates to 3.2.
- 16:27:25 [bcaldwell]
- action Chris: modify test 15 fo consistency with guideline 1.1 SC (serves same purpose) and create new tests for quality of link text
- 16:28:01 [bcaldwell]
- agendum?
- 16:28:07 [bcaldwell]
- next agendum?
- 16:28:09 [Zakim]
- + +000012aadd - is perhaps [IPcaller]
- 16:28:27 [bcaldwell]
- zakim, take up agendum 4
- 16:28:27 [Zakim]
- agendum 4. ""Work on holes in mapping success criteria to techniques - http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2004/11/19-sc-techniques-mapping.html"" taken up [from bcaldwell]
- 16:28:56 [bcaldwell]
- action john: draft techniques for 3.1
- 16:31:52 [Zakim]
- -Chris
- 16:31:53 [Zakim]
- -Jenae
- 16:31:55 [ChrisR]
- ChrisR has left #wai-wcag
- 16:32:00 [bcaldwell]
- criterion with no techniques: 1.2, 2.2, 2.3, 2.4
- 16:32:35 [bcaldwell]
- zakim, who is here?
- 16:32:35 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see ben, Becky_Gibson, Michael_Cooper, David, Ken_Kipnes, John_Slatin, Don_Evans, Alex_Li, [IPcaller]
- 16:32:37 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see David_, nms, AliG, ken, Michael, wendy, Becky_Gibson, RRSAgent, Zakim, bcaldwell
- 16:34:24 [Becky_Gibson]
- I'm back
- 16:36:50 [bcaldwell]
- questions about format of general techniques - why is it different than the other techs. documents
- 16:38:50 [bcaldwell]
- ag - is there information in HTML techniques that parallels the advice in general
- 16:39:02 [bcaldwell]
- bc - need to do a better job of cross-referencing
- 16:39:20 [bcaldwell]
- at this point in time, there are gaps in HTML techniques
- 16:42:28 [bcaldwell]
- action john: talk to wendy about candidates for authoring 1.2 techniques
- 16:44:03 [bcaldwell]
- action ben: write techniques for http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-WCAG20-20041119/#visual-audio-contrast-bg-patterns
- 16:44:23 [bcaldwell]
- action david: write techniques for http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-WCAG20-20041119/#visual-audio-contrast-dis-audio
- 16:45:14 [bcaldwell]
- action david: write up a test for http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-WCAG20-20041119/#visual-audio-contrast-noaudio
- 16:50:26 [bcaldwell]
- table 2.3 techniques
- 16:51:20 [bcaldwell]
- action editors: include mappings to 2.4, item 1 for 1.3, item 1 techniques
- 16:51:50 [bcaldwell]
- action michael: html techniques for http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-WCAG20-20041119/#navigation-mechanisms-focus
- 16:55:39 [bcaldwell]
- action michael: HTML techs for http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-WCAG20-20041119/#navigation-mechanisms-images
- 16:55:53 [bcaldwell]
- action michael: HTML techniques for http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-WCAG20-20041119/#navigation-mechanisms-paragraphs
- 16:56:16 [bcaldwell]
- action Michael: HTML techniques for http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-WCAG20-20041119/#navigation-mechanisms-title-subsections
- 17:01:26 [bcaldwell]
- ag - quite a few negative techniques (use x, not y) makes it difficult to write testable statements
- 17:01:35 [bcaldwell]
- no mtgs. for next 2 weeks
- 17:01:51 [bcaldwell]
- action everyone: work on action items and drafting techniques if possible
- 17:02:15 [Zakim]
- -John_Slatin
- 17:02:16 [Zakim]
- -Becky_Gibson
- 17:02:17 [Zakim]
- -Don_Evans
- 17:02:20 [Zakim]
- -Michael_Cooper
- 17:02:21 [Zakim]
- -ben
- 17:02:23 [Zakim]
- -David
- 17:02:25 [Zakim]
- -Ken_Kipnes
- 17:02:30 [bcaldwell]
- RRSAgent, bye
- 17:02:30 [RRSAgent]
- I see 14 open action items:
- 17:02:30 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Chris to replace "null alt" with "empty string ("")." [1]
- 17:02:30 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/15-wai-wcag-irc#T15-27-25
- 17:02:30 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Chris to correct 178-2.html per Alex's comments [2]
- 17:02:30 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/15-wai-wcag-irc#T15-28-55
- 17:02:30 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Chris to modify test 15 fo consistency with guideline 1.1 SC (serves same purpose) and create new tests for quality of link text [3]
- 17:02:30 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/15-wai-wcag-irc#T16-27-25
- 17:02:30 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: john to draft techniques for 3.1 [4]
- 17:02:30 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/15-wai-wcag-irc#T16-28-56
- 17:02:30 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: john to talk to wendy about candidates for authoring 1.2 techniques [5]
- 17:02:30 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/15-wai-wcag-irc#T16-42-28
- 17:02:30 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: ben to write techniques for http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-WCAG20-20041119/#visual-audio-contrast-bg-patterns [6]
- 17:02:30 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/15-wai-wcag-irc#T16-44-03
- 17:02:30 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: david to write techniques for http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-WCAG20-20041119/#visual-audio-contrast-dis-audio [7]
- 17:02:30 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/15-wai-wcag-irc#T16-44-23
- 17:02:30 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: david to write up a test for http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-WCAG20-20041119/#visual-audio-contrast-noaudio [8]
- 17:02:30 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/15-wai-wcag-irc#T16-45-14
- 17:02:30 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: editors to include mappings to 2.4, item 1 for 1.3, item 1 techniques [9]
- 17:02:30 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/15-wai-wcag-irc#T16-51-20
- 17:02:30 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: michael to html techniques for http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-WCAG20-20041119/#navigation-mechanisms-focus [10]
- 17:02:30 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/15-wai-wcag-irc#T16-51-50
- 17:02:30 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: michael to HTML techs for http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-WCAG20-20041119/#navigation-mechanisms-images [11]
- 17:02:30 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/15-wai-wcag-irc#T16-55-39
- 17:02:30 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: michael to HTML techniques for http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-WCAG20-20041119/#navigation-mechanisms-paragraphs [12]
- 17:02:30 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/15-wai-wcag-irc#T16-55-53
- 17:02:30 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Michael to HTML techniques for http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-WCAG20-20041119/#navigation-mechanisms-title-subsections [13]
- 17:02:30 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/15-wai-wcag-irc#T16-56-16
- 17:02:30 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: everyone to work on action items and drafting techniques if possible [14]
- 17:02:30 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/15-wai-wcag-irc#T17-01-51
- 17:02:35 [Zakim]
- -[IPcaller]
- 17:02:37 [Zakim]
- WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended
- 17:02:41 [Zakim]
- Attendees were +000012aaaa, +1.267.983.aabb, Jenae, Becky_Gibson, Alex_Li, ben, Tim_Boland, Michael_Cooper, Allistair, David, Chris, Ken_Kipnes, John_Slatin, +1.267.983.aacc,
- 17:02:44 [Zakim]
- ... Don_Evans, +000012aadd
- 17:03:16 [bcaldwell]
- zakim, bye
- 17:03:16 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #wai-wcag