IRC log of wai-wcag on 2004-12-15

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:59:10 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag

14:59:17 [bcaldwell]

RRSAgent, make log world

15:00:04 [Zakim]

WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has now started

15:00:05 [Zakim]

+[Microsoft]

15:00:34 [bcaldwell]

zakim, [Microsoft] Jenae

15:00:34 [Zakim]

I don't understand '[Microsoft] Jenae', bcaldwell

15:00:39 [Zakim]

+ +000012aaaa - is perhaps [IPcaller]

15:00:42 [Zakim]

-[IPcaller]

15:00:43 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

15:00:50 [Zakim]

+ +1.267.983.aabb - is perhaps Neil?

15:00:52 [bcaldwell]

zakim, [Microsoft] is Jenae

15:00:52 [Zakim]

+Jenae; got it

15:01:19 [Becky_Gibson]

Becky_Gibson has joined #wai-wcag

15:01:27 [wendy]

wendy has joined #wai-wcag

15:01:34 [Zakim]

+??P28

15:01:38 [Zakim]

+Becky_Gibson

15:01:43 [bcaldwell]

zakim, ?P28 is Ben

15:01:43 [Zakim]

sorry, bcaldwell, I do not recognize a party named '?P28'

15:01:45 [Zakim]

+Alex_Li

15:01:51 [bcaldwell]

zakim, ??P28 is ben

15:01:51 [Zakim]

+ben; got it

15:01:57 [Zakim]

+Tim_Boland

15:01:59 [bcaldwell]

zakim, I am ben

15:01:59 [Zakim]

ok, bcaldwell, I now associate you with ben

15:02:11 [wendy]

ben? chris? becky? i'm not feeling well, so am not going to make the meeting this morning. could you pass word to michael?

15:02:15 [wendy]

RRSAgent, make log world

15:02:24 [bcaldwell]

sure thing

15:02:30 [Becky_Gibson]

sure, Wendy, feel better

15:02:35 [bcaldwell]

zakim, who is here?

15:02:35 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Jenae, [IPcaller], Neil?, ben, Becky_Gibson, Alex_Li, Tim_Boland

15:02:37 [Zakim]

On IRC I see wendy, Becky_Gibson, RRSAgent, ChrisR, Zakim, bcaldwell

15:02:43 [wendy]

If there are any questions for me, please send me email and I'll get back to you later today.

15:02:58 [wendy]

thanks.

15:02:59 [Zakim]

+??P34

15:03:05 [Zakim]

+Michael_Cooper

15:03:17 [Michael]

Michael has joined #wai-wcag

15:03:24 [bcaldwell]

zakim, ??P34 is Allistair

15:03:24 [Zakim]

+Allistair; got it

15:03:28 [Zakim]

+??P36

15:03:44 [bcaldwell]

zakim, ??P36 is David

15:03:44 [Zakim]

+David; got it

15:04:08 [ken]

ken has joined #wai-wcag

15:04:29 [bcaldwell]

zakim, [IPcaller] is Chris

15:04:29 [Zakim]

+Chris; got it

15:04:46 [Zakim]

+Ken_Kipnes

15:05:27 [David]

David has joined #wai-wcag

15:05:37 [David]

test

15:05:45 [Zakim]

+John_Slatin

15:08:37 [AliG]

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15:08:46 [bcaldwell]

agenda + "Review results straw polls"

15:08:46 [AliG]

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15:09:12 [AliG]

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15:09:15 [bcaldwell]

agenda + "XHTML compliance of test cases

15:09:15 [bcaldwell]

"

15:09:37 [nms]

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15:09:45 [bcaldwell]

agenda + "Review more test files - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004OctDec/0554.html"

15:10:28 [bcaldwell]

agenda + "Work on holes in mapping success criteria to techniques - http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2004/11/19-sc-techniques-mapping.html"

15:11:12 [Tim]

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15:12:39 [bcaldwell]

next agendum

15:13:04 [bcaldwell]

meaning of optional?

15:13:29 [bcaldwell]

js - not absolutely required for conformance, right?

15:14:38 [bcaldwell]

if test is optional, does that mean they have satisfied an optional req. in the wcag spec beyond basic conformance?

15:15:03 [bcaldwell]

mc - in theory, an optional test might be the result of an optional requirement, but not yet clear

15:15:16 [bcaldwell]

js - no such thing as an optional requirement

15:15:52 [bcaldwell]

QA - requires that specs describe what is required and what is optional

15:16:40 [Michael]

First batch: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/group1/results

15:18:41 [bcaldwell]

Test 3 - Alt text must be short

15:18:49 [bcaldwell]

? how to define/quantify short

15:19:06 [bcaldwell]

jw - JAWS default line length -- 150 characters

15:19:09 [Tim]

need to quantify what 'short' means (so that it's testable)

15:20:15 [bcaldwell]

chris is keeping tests up to date with status

15:20:24 [bcaldwell]

no decision yet on test 3

15:21:01 [bcaldwell]

what is the difference between optional and kill?

15:21:30 [bcaldwell]

bg - sometimes used optional because the test needs work

15:22:06 [bcaldwell]

tim - is there a test for meaningful alt text?

15:22:21 [bcaldwell]

js - yes, discussion on list

15:23:21 [bcaldwell]

test 6

15:24:53 [bcaldwell]

test 16 - bg - need to define decorative that mirrors the language in the SC

15:25:41 [bcaldwell]

sc - need to clarify different ways to define null alt in test files - suggest we be more restrictive to define null as "" (nothing between quotation marks)

15:26:32 [bcaldwell]

HTML/XHTML specs use "empty string ("")"

15:26:59 [ChrisR]

alternate text should be the empty string ("").

15:27:08 [bcaldwell]

action Chris - replace "null alt" with "empty string ("")."

15:27:23 [Zakim]

-Neil?

15:27:25 [bcaldwell]

action Chris: replace "null alt" with "empty string ("")."

15:27:46 [bcaldwell]

test 178 - everyone votes for priority 1

15:28:30 [bcaldwell]

al - proposed correction to test

15:28:54 [Zakim]

+ +1.267.983.aacc - is perhaps Neil?

15:28:55 [bcaldwell]

action Chris: correct 178-2.html per Alex's comments

15:29:13 [bcaldwell]

ag - is priority 1 - priority 3 really relevant for tests?

15:29:45 [bcaldwell]

mc - we didn't define things very well - mtg. in Dublin was context - what I did was take priorities to mean the same thing they did in WCAG 1.0

15:30:36 [bcaldwell]

ag - relevancy rating needed to identify whether the test is useful as well?

15:31:01 [bcaldwell]

tim - recommend define it on the straw polls, my assumption was that these priorities related to WCAG 2.0

15:32:38 [bcaldwell]

mc - intended to be a straw poll only, not formal, just gathering ideas - by polling this way, we've had issues with tests inheriting priority from 2.0 guidelines - prioritization is a useful way of helping us to understand the test and helps identify problems

15:32:53 [bcaldwell]

ag - useful to then vote on whether the test actually supports the technique

15:33:13 [bcaldwell]

mc - identifying a test as "kill" suggests that it doesn't support a technique

15:34:52 [bcaldwell]

tim - testing guidelines not techniques

15:35:16 [bcaldwell]

al, bc - agree

15:35:37 [bcaldwell]

js - assigning priority 1 implies necessary and sufficient for testing the criteria?

15:35:46 [bcaldwell]

mc - not necessarily sufficient

15:36:32 [bcaldwell]

js - need to get clear about what the terms in straw polls mean

15:36:47 [bcaldwell]

mc - agree, if we continue using this process, we should address these issues

15:37:15 [bcaldwell]

ag - each test is designed to support some part of a technique

15:38:08 [Zakim]

+Don_Evans

15:38:17 [bcaldwell]

cr - each test has a testable statement in it, it is the expected results

15:38:46 [DonFEvans]

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15:38:56 [DonFEvans]

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15:39:23 [DonFEvans]

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15:39:41 [bcaldwell]

tim - formalize use of "must" "should" "may"

15:40:17 [DonFEvans]

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15:40:37 [bcaldwell]

js - test 178, remove "must" from test

15:41:43 [bcaldwell]

js - can we agree that removing must is what we want to do?

15:42:03 [bcaldwell]

tim - needs to be quick and easy for an author to determine whether the test has been passed

15:42:16 [bcaldwell]

ag - agree that we should remove musts and shoulds

15:43:04 [bcaldwell]

bc - shoulds may indicate optionality

15:43:28 [bcaldwell]

ns - ex. test 10 "image must not flicker" should be "image does not flicker"

15:44:23 [Zakim]

-Alex_Li

15:44:28 [bcaldwell]

should be specific about whether true or false outcomes are required

15:44:49 [Zakim]

+Alex_Li

15:45:10 [bcaldwell]

phrase all questions so that answer is true?

15:46:17 [bcaldwell]

zakim, who is making noise?

15:46:30 [Zakim]

bcaldwell, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 13 (4%), Don_Evans (15%), ben (4%), Tim_Boland (15%), Allistair (56%), Michael_Cooper (24%), John_Slatin (0%)

15:46:54 [bcaldwell]

zakim, mute Allistair

15:46:54 [Zakim]

Allistair should now be muted

15:47:37 [bcaldwell]

js - my understanding of what we see as a page may be multiple delivery units

15:47:45 [Tim]

What level of granularity of content are we talking about for conformance (re:

15:48:09 [Tim]

preciseness of "delivery unit" term)?

15:48:18 [bcaldwell]

js - conformance claim for authored unit can only be as high as the lowest authored unit on the page

15:49:19 [ChrisR]

test status: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/tests/checkstatus.html

15:50:13 [bcaldwell]

mc - stop here, review group 2 of tests next meeting?

15:50:57 [bcaldwell]

next agendum

15:51:38 [bcaldwell]

zakim, take up agendum 2

15:51:38 [Zakim]

agendum 2. ""XHTML compliance of test cases" taken up [from bcaldwell]

15:52:55 [bcaldwell]

which version? XHTML 1.0?

15:53:02 [bcaldwell]

cases where XHTML 1.1 would be needed?

15:54:35 [bcaldwell]

neil - server type - HTML or XHTML?

15:55:19 [bcaldwell]

mc - almost certainly text/html due to issues with application/xhtml

15:55:44 [bcaldwell]

js - issues with "lang" attribute and "xml:lang"?

15:56:39 [Tim]

I need to sign off now..bye

15:56:50 [bcaldwell]

resolved: use XHTML 1.0 for the test files unless there is a specific reason to use a different DTD - server as text/html unless reason to do otherwise

15:56:50 [Zakim]

-Tim_Boland

15:57:01 [Tim]

Tim has left #wai-wcag

15:57:21 [bcaldwell]

next agendum

15:58:22 [bcaldwell]

zakim, take up agendum 3

15:58:22 [Zakim]

agendum 3. ""Review more test files - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004OctDec/0554.html"" taken up [from bcaldwell]

15:58:37 [bcaldwell]

test 15 - http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/tests/test15.html

15:59:54 [bcaldwell]

discussion on list about role of "title" attribute and description of destination of a link

16:01:25 [bcaldwell]

js - concern is that this applies to both AT and non-AT users

16:02:38 [DonFEvans]

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16:03:03 [bcaldwell]

mc - link text should identify destination of link

16:04:43 [bcaldwell]

guideline 3.2, level 2, item 6 - The destination of each link is identified through words or phrases that either occur in the link or can be programmatically determined.

16:05:13 [bcaldwell]

js - as someone who uses a screenreader, the user experience where what you hear, is "link, graphic, drawing of a house" would make you crazy.

16:06:00 [ChrisR]

MathML: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/tests/test135.html

16:06:15 [bcaldwell]

Test 135 - Use MathML not images for math.

16:06:39 [bcaldwell]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/tests/test135.html

16:07:22 [bcaldwell]

ns - test currently includes text someone would say if they looked at the image -- both tests are redundant

16:07:55 [bcaldwell]

ns - title is use MathML, not images.

16:08:05 [bcaldwell]

js - so if you have an image of math, it should fail the test

16:09:13 [bcaldwell]

mc second test - should remove both the image and the text because when a screenreader hits it it would read that math.

16:09:43 [bcaldwell]

js - is match scalable for low vision?

16:09:47 [bcaldwell]

ns - yes

16:10:25 [bcaldwell]

mc - technique level, we may want to keep some redundancy to illustrate

16:12:12 [bcaldwell]

bc - what is fallback for MathML when UA can't render it?

16:12:43 [Zakim]

-Neil?

16:13:33 [bcaldwell]

back to test 15

16:14:52 [David_]

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16:15:56 [bcaldwell]

test should be consistent with language of success criterion

16:16:49 [bcaldwell]

criterion says, "For all non-text content that is functional, such as graphical links or buttons, text alternatives serve the same purpose as the non-text content."

16:19:24 [bcaldwell]

bc - 2 tests? one for level 1, guideline 1.1 that tests "serve the same purpose" and one for guideline 3.2, level 2, item 6 about describing the link destination

16:20:31 [Zakim]

-Alex_Li

16:20:57 [Zakim]

+Alex_Li

16:22:52 [bcaldwell]

need additional tests around this, recc. we associate link destination test with guideline 3.2

16:23:15 [bcaldwell]

do we also need a test for guideline 1.1?

16:24:45 [Zakim]

-Allistair

16:24:52 [bcaldwell]

need to clarify what process for determining difference between functional and decorative non-text content

16:25:59 [bcaldwell]

mc - continue to have test for 1.1 about alt text in image links, then need tests around quality of links in general (incl. from alt text in images, link text itself, etc.) that relates to 3.2.

16:27:25 [bcaldwell]

action Chris: modify test 15 fo consistency with guideline 1.1 SC (serves same purpose) and create new tests for quality of link text

16:28:01 [bcaldwell]

agendum?

16:28:07 [bcaldwell]

next agendum?

16:28:09 [Zakim]

+ +000012aadd - is perhaps [IPcaller]

16:28:27 [bcaldwell]

zakim, take up agendum 4

16:28:27 [Zakim]

agendum 4. ""Work on holes in mapping success criteria to techniques - http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2004/11/19-sc-techniques-mapping.html"" taken up [from bcaldwell]

16:28:56 [bcaldwell]

action john: draft techniques for 3.1

16:31:52 [Zakim]

-Chris

16:31:53 [Zakim]

-Jenae

16:31:55 [ChrisR]

ChrisR has left #wai-wcag

16:32:00 [bcaldwell]

criterion with no techniques: 1.2, 2.2, 2.3, 2.4

16:32:35 [bcaldwell]

zakim, who is here?

16:32:35 [Zakim]

On the phone I see ben, Becky_Gibson, Michael_Cooper, David, Ken_Kipnes, John_Slatin, Don_Evans, Alex_Li, [IPcaller]

16:32:37 [Zakim]

On IRC I see David_, nms, AliG, ken, Michael, wendy, Becky_Gibson, RRSAgent, Zakim, bcaldwell

16:34:24 [Becky_Gibson]

I'm back

16:36:50 [bcaldwell]

questions about format of general techniques - why is it different than the other techs. documents

16:38:50 [bcaldwell]

ag - is there information in HTML techniques that parallels the advice in general

16:39:02 [bcaldwell]

bc - need to do a better job of cross-referencing

16:39:20 [bcaldwell]

at this point in time, there are gaps in HTML techniques

16:42:28 [bcaldwell]

action john: talk to wendy about candidates for authoring 1.2 techniques

16:44:03 [bcaldwell]

action ben: write techniques for http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-WCAG20-20041119/#visual-audio-contrast-bg-patterns

16:44:23 [bcaldwell]

action david: write techniques for http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-WCAG20-20041119/#visual-audio-contrast-dis-audio

16:45:14 [bcaldwell]

action david: write up a test for http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-WCAG20-20041119/#visual-audio-contrast-noaudio

16:50:26 [bcaldwell]

table 2.3 techniques

16:51:20 [bcaldwell]

action editors: include mappings to 2.4, item 1 for 1.3, item 1 techniques

16:51:50 [bcaldwell]

action michael: html techniques for http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-WCAG20-20041119/#navigation-mechanisms-focus

16:55:39 [bcaldwell]

action michael: HTML techs for http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-WCAG20-20041119/#navigation-mechanisms-images

16:55:53 [bcaldwell]

action michael: HTML techniques for http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-WCAG20-20041119/#navigation-mechanisms-paragraphs

16:56:16 [bcaldwell]

action Michael: HTML techniques for http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-WCAG20-20041119/#navigation-mechanisms-title-subsections

17:01:26 [bcaldwell]

ag - quite a few negative techniques (use x, not y) makes it difficult to write testable statements

17:01:35 [bcaldwell]

no mtgs. for next 2 weeks

17:01:51 [bcaldwell]

action everyone: work on action items and drafting techniques if possible

17:02:15 [Zakim]

-John_Slatin

17:02:16 [Zakim]

-Becky_Gibson

17:02:17 [Zakim]

-Don_Evans

17:02:20 [Zakim]

-Michael_Cooper

17:02:21 [Zakim]

-ben

17:02:23 [Zakim]

-David

17:02:25 [Zakim]

-Ken_Kipnes

17:02:30 [bcaldwell]

RRSAgent, bye

17:02:30 [RRSAgent]

I see 14 open action items:

17:02:30 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Chris to replace "null alt" with "empty string ("")." [1]

17:02:30 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/15-wai-wcag-irc#T15-27-25

17:02:30 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Chris to correct 178-2.html per Alex's comments [2]

17:02:30 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/15-wai-wcag-irc#T15-28-55

17:02:30 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Chris to modify test 15 fo consistency with guideline 1.1 SC (serves same purpose) and create new tests for quality of link text [3]

17:02:30 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/15-wai-wcag-irc#T16-27-25

17:02:30 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: john to draft techniques for 3.1 [4]

17:02:30 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/15-wai-wcag-irc#T16-28-56

17:02:30 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: john to talk to wendy about candidates for authoring 1.2 techniques [5]

17:02:30 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/15-wai-wcag-irc#T16-42-28

17:02:30 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: ben to write techniques for http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-WCAG20-20041119/#visual-audio-contrast-bg-patterns [6]

17:02:30 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/15-wai-wcag-irc#T16-44-03

17:02:30 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: david to write techniques for http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-WCAG20-20041119/#visual-audio-contrast-dis-audio [7]

17:02:30 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/15-wai-wcag-irc#T16-44-23

17:02:30 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: david to write up a test for http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-WCAG20-20041119/#visual-audio-contrast-noaudio [8]

17:02:30 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/15-wai-wcag-irc#T16-45-14

17:02:30 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: editors to include mappings to 2.4, item 1 for 1.3, item 1 techniques [9]

17:02:30 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/15-wai-wcag-irc#T16-51-20

17:02:30 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: michael to html techniques for http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-WCAG20-20041119/#navigation-mechanisms-focus [10]

17:02:30 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/15-wai-wcag-irc#T16-51-50

17:02:30 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: michael to HTML techs for http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-WCAG20-20041119/#navigation-mechanisms-images [11]

17:02:30 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/15-wai-wcag-irc#T16-55-39

17:02:30 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: michael to HTML techniques for http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-WCAG20-20041119/#navigation-mechanisms-paragraphs [12]

17:02:30 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/15-wai-wcag-irc#T16-55-53

17:02:30 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Michael to HTML techniques for http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-WCAG20-20041119/#navigation-mechanisms-title-subsections [13]

17:02:30 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/15-wai-wcag-irc#T16-56-16

17:02:30 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: everyone to work on action items and drafting techniques if possible [14]

17:02:30 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/15-wai-wcag-irc#T17-01-51

17:02:35 [Zakim]

-[IPcaller]

17:02:37 [Zakim]

WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended

17:02:41 [Zakim]

Attendees were +000012aaaa, +1.267.983.aabb, Jenae, Becky_Gibson, Alex_Li, ben, Tim_Boland, Michael_Cooper, Allistair, David, Chris, Ken_Kipnes, John_Slatin, +1.267.983.aacc,

17:02:44 [Zakim]

... Don_Evans, +000012aadd

17:03:16 [bcaldwell]

zakim, bye

17:03:16 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #wai-wcag