IRC log of dawg on 2004-12-14

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:31:56 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #dawg

14:31:58 [Yoshio]

zakim, call Yoshio-home

14:31:58 [Zakim]

ok, Yoshio; the call is being made

14:31:59 [Zakim]

+Yoshio

14:32:03 [DanC]

Zakim, agenda?

14:32:03 [Zakim]

I see 7 items remaining on the agenda:

14:32:04 [Zakim]

1. Convene, take roll, review records and agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/0463.html [from DanC]

14:32:07 [Zakim]

2. XML Results format [from DanC]

14:32:08 [Zakim]

3. Protocol Spec [from DanC]

14:32:09 [Zakim]

4. Services [from DanC]

14:32:10 [Zakim]

5. Test suite maintenance, syntax comments

14:32:11 [Zakim]

6. Testing Values [from DanC]

14:32:12 [Zakim]

7. SPARQL SOURCE Issue [from DanC]

14:32:47 [AndyS]

Eric - can we talk about the tutorial after the call to plan a meeting w/ Dave and Steve

14:33:03 [ericP]

andy, sure

14:33:15 [kendall]

(damn, get my phone line fixed, and the tele-vultures descend immediately)

14:33:15 [DanC]

(wondering where Janne is)

14:33:29 [DanC]

Zakim, who's on the phone?

14:33:29 [Zakim]

On the phone I see EricP, DanC, HPbrs, Yoshio, Simon_Raboczi, Farrukh_Najmi, Kevin, Kendall_Clark

14:33:31 [Zakim]

HPbrs has AndyS, DaveB

14:33:33 [Zakim]

+PatH

14:33:54 [ericP]

zakim, take up next agendum

14:33:54 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "Convene, take roll, review records and agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/0463.html" taken up [from DanC]

14:34:00 [Zakim]

+SteveH

14:34:38 [DanC]

Zakim, pick a scribe

14:34:38 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose PatH

14:34:40 [ericP]

meeting record http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/0463.html APPROVED

14:35:30 [DanC]

Yoshio, would you prefer to meet or not meet on 21 Dec?

14:35:58 [Yoshio]

Either will do

14:36:42 [ericP]

next meeting: 21-Dec

14:36:47 [ericP]

scribe: SimonR

14:37:26 [Yoshio]

Jan 4th? I prefer not holding a meeting

14:37:54 [kendall]

28th and 4th are both good for me, ironically

14:38:08 [SimonR]

I can do the 28th and the 4th as well.

14:38:15 [SteveH]

I can do 6th

14:38:49 [Yoshio]

* My telephone environment is awful tonight, so if you want my exact answer, please ask on irc (^ ^;)

14:38:51 [ericP]

subsequent meeeting: 11-Dec

14:39:03 [JosD]

JosD has joined #dawg

14:39:06 [ericP]

subsequent meeeting scribe: SteveH

14:39:31 [DanC]

RESOLVED: to cxl 28 Dec, 4 Jan

14:39:40 [Zakim]

+JosD

14:40:21 [DanC]

Zakim, next agendum

14:40:21 [Zakim]

agendum 2. "XML Results format" taken up [from DanC]

14:40:50 [ericP]

ACTION: DanC owner of issue 'yes or no questions' (was pending protocol doc) CONTINUED

14:40:59 [ericP]

ACTION: SteveH own (i.e. propose resolution to) disjunction issue CONTINUED

14:41:15 [ericP]

ACTION: EricP migrate some Algae UnionDisjunciton test cases CONTINUED

14:41:35 [ericP]

ACTION EricP: find logistics re F2F5 at tech plenary in Boston March 28 Feb - 4 Mar (2 days). Some WG preference to Mon/Tue of that week. CONTINUED

14:41:49 [ericP]

ACTION: DaveB to write an XML result format

14:41:55 [ericP]

DONE

14:43:09 [DanC]

simon re results http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/0475.html

14:43:11 [Yoshio]

* yoshio will be dropped of for a while: let me retry telephone connection (it's so awful)

14:43:20 [ericP]

ACTION: AndyS to review Dave's XML result set format

14:43:23 [ericP]

DONE

14:43:33 [Zakim]

-Yoshio

14:43:35 [ericP]

ACTION: SteveH to review Dave's XML result set format

14:43:54 [DanC]

action -6

14:44:00 [DanC]

action -5

14:44:06 [Zakim]

+Yoshio

14:44:35 [ericP]

SteveH, do you plan to write a review?

14:44:48 [ericP]

ie, shall i continue the action item?

14:45:06 [DanC]

(I was about to say that Steve's brief report discharges his action to my satisfaction and ask for different opinions)

14:45:15 [ericP]

DONE

14:45:25 [ericP]

(maybe jumping the gun here...)

14:45:25 [Yoshio]

zakim, drop Yoshio-home

14:45:25 [Zakim]

sorry, Yoshio, I do not see a party named 'Yoshio-home'

14:45:31 [Yoshio]

zakim, drop Yoshio

14:45:31 [Zakim]

Yoshio is being disconnected

14:45:32 [Zakim]

-Yoshio

14:45:49 [Yoshio]

zakim, call Yoshio-home

14:45:49 [Zakim]

ok, Yoshio; the call is being made

14:45:50 [Zakim]

+Yoshio

14:46:57 [ericP]

PROPOSE to publish XML result set

14:47:22 [ericP]

Abstentions from PatH and SimonR

14:47:25 [ericP]

RESOLVED

14:47:38 [ericP]

ACTION EricP: publish XML result set document

14:48:30 [ericP]

XML result set document is http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rf1/

14:48:32 [DanC]

ACTION Simon: counter-propose something re unbound results

14:48:46 [DanC]

Zakim, next agendum

14:48:46 [Zakim]

agendum 3. "Protocol Spec" taken up [from DanC]

14:49:20 [kendall]

heavy breather

14:49:36 [ericP]

ACTION: KendallC to publish "SPARQL Protocol for RDF" pending approval from TomA and AndyS

14:49:50 [DanC]

Zakim, mute PatH temporarily

14:49:51 [Zakim]

PatH should now be muted

14:50:05 [Zakim]

PatH should now be unmuted again

14:50:09 [DanC]

Zakim, mute PatH

14:50:09 [Zakim]

PatH should now be muted

14:51:11 [ericP]

CONTINUED

14:52:07 [ericP]

agenda?

14:52:23 [DanC]

Zakim, next agendum

14:52:23 [Zakim]

agendum 4. "Services" taken up [from DanC]

14:54:14 [ericP]

ACTION: KendallC expose our walking tour data to SPARQL querying clients

14:54:18 [ericP]

CONTINUED

14:56:04 [ericP]

Kendall: someone from NASA (Florida) showing interest in SPARQL and RDF

14:56:17 [DanC]

Zakim, next agendum

14:56:17 [Zakim]

agendum 5. "Test suite maintenance, syntax comments" taken up

14:56:20 [ericP]

... interested in interop festival in July or Aug

14:56:42 [SimonR]

That's intersect with my travel plans for F2F5, in all likelihood. Great!

14:56:48 [ericP]

ACTION: SteveH is willing to adapt his testing infrastructure to generate input/output RDF/XML and typed nodes into manifest file

14:57:10 [ericP]

CONTINUED -- waiting (short term) on a Jena release

14:57:35 [ericP]

ACTION EricP: make sure all dawg tests are world-readable now and going forward

14:58:15 [ericP]

DONE

14:58:24 [ericP]

action - 13

14:58:51 [ericP]

ACTION EricP: come up with a specification for the "non-XML" syntax (may be turtle)

14:58:56 [ericP]

DONE (by dave)

14:59:05 [ericP]

action - 14

14:59:25 [ericP]

DanC: inclined to release Turtle with test suite

14:59:35 [ericP]

DaveB: prefer separate document

15:00:30 [ericP]

KendallC: what's the hard part?

15:00:38 [ericP]

DanC: shopping around the AC

15:00:50 [SimonR]

Theoretically, CONSTRUCT is sort of an RDF serialization syntax...

15:00:51 [ericP]

KendallC: would like to see it separate

15:01:08 [ericP]

AndyS: let's not separate it now

15:01:19 [kendall]

Simon: yep

15:01:26 [ericP]

... consider with other charter amendments

15:01:37 [ericP]

DanC: let's noodle on this for a week

15:01:57 [DanC]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/#dawg-triple-pattern-001 $Revision: 1.22 $

15:02:53 [ericP]

ACTI^H^H^H SteveH has updated the above document

15:03:08 [DanC]

Fwd: SPARQL: graph syntax should be N3 subset Tom Adams (Tuesday, 30 November) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/0387.html

15:04:45 [ericP]

ACTION: EricP to deal with http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/0387.html, perhaps by proposing something to the WG.

15:06:32 [SimonR]

SteveH observes that one of the approved tests (2a?) includes the optional commas in the SELECT clause.

15:10:15 [kendall]

URI?

15:10:18 [DanC]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/#sparql-query-example-2-4a

15:11:33 [DanC]

Kendall: I prefer required commas ala ?name, ?mbox

15:11:49 [DanC]

Zakim, who's on the phone?

15:11:49 [Zakim]

On the phone I see EricP, DanC, HPbrs, Yoshio, Simon_Raboczi, Farrukh_Najmi, Kevin, Kendall_Clark, PatH (muted), SteveH, JosD

15:11:51 [Zakim]

HPbrs has AndyS, DaveB

15:12:09 [DanC]

ericp: not opt, not present

15:12:20 [DanC]

danc: required

15:12:26 [DanC]

yoshio?

15:12:40 [DanC]

simon: not opt, not present

15:12:55 [Zakim]

-Farrukh_Najmi

15:13:03 [DanC]

kendall: required

15:13:08 [DanC]

ack path

15:13:10 [FarrukhNajmi]

abstain. sorry I got disconnected

15:13:23 [DanC]

pat: optional, but if not opt, not present

15:13:27 [DanC]

Zakim, mute path

15:13:27 [Zakim]

PatH should now be muted

15:13:35 [DanC]

Zakim, who's talking?

15:13:38 [SimonR]

(Does that make any sense?)

15:13:44 [kendall]

wow

15:13:45 [Zakim]

DanC, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: EricP (15%), DanC (65%), Yoshio (70%)

15:13:51 [Zakim]

+Farrukh_Najmi

15:13:52 [DanC]

Zakim, mute yoshio

15:13:52 [Zakim]

Yoshio should now be muted

15:14:04 [Yoshio]

ok

15:14:12 [DanC]

Steve: not opt

15:14:25 [DanC]

JosD: not opt

15:14:41 [DanC]

no commas

15:14:51 [DanC]

andy: not opt, not present

15:14:58 [DanC]

dave: not opt, not present

15:15:45 [kendall]

it's NOT a consensus, FWIW

15:16:05 [DanC]

editors lean for not opt, not present

15:16:34 [DanC]

ACTION DaveB: propose replacement for tests that have ?foo, ?Bar

15:18:04 [DanC]

Zakim, next agendum

15:18:04 [Zakim]

agendum 6. "Testing Values" taken up [from DanC]

15:18:35 [AndyS]

DaveB notes action is for all tests

15:18:48 [DanC]

actions by ericp, simonR done

15:19:05 [DanC]

danc: which way do the editors lean?

15:19:37 [DanC]

ericp: seems safer not to allow value testing in the graph pattern, given some reluctance and unknowns

15:20:14 [DanC]

andys: syntax is separable from graph matching...

15:20:18 [Zakim]

-PatH

15:20:29 [DanC]

(bummer; meant to ask about PatH about this)

15:20:41 [DanC]

AndyS: re semantics, relates to D-entailments

15:23:09 [DanC]

ACTION SimonR: propose test case for scalar constraint with syntax uniform to graph constraints. CONTINUES.

15:23:37 [DanC]

Simon: I'm mostly taking stuff out. Andys: I think you put a lot in... [bnodes?]

15:26:19 [DanC]

Zakim, next agendum

15:26:19 [Zakim]

agendum 7. "SPARQL SOURCE Issue" taken up [from DanC]

15:27:03 [DanC]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data/source-named/

15:27:18 [JosD]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data/source-named/query-9.1.rq

15:27:35 [DanC]

AndyS: I couldn't confirm those results

15:27:46 [DanC]

Dave: I no longer prefer that design. now prefer "untrusted graphs"

15:28:04 [FarrukhNajmi]

I need to drop off due to another meeting. My apologies for the spotty participation. cu

15:28:14 [FarrukhNajmi]

thanks

15:28:27 [Zakim]

-Farrukh_Najmi

15:28:32 [FarrukhNajmi]

FarrukhNajmi has left #dawg

15:28:32 [SteveH]

theres a typo on line 12 of result-9.1.n3

15:28:53 [DanC]

Zakim, who's on the phone?

15:28:53 [Zakim]

On the phone I see EricP, DanC, HPbrs, Yoshio (muted), Simon_Raboczi, Kevin, Kendall_Clark, SteveH, JosD

15:28:55 [Zakim]

HPbrs has AndyS, DaveB

15:29:36 [Yoshio]

I missed the question, sorry

15:29:40 [DanC]

yoshio, what do you prefer we do about SOURCE? get rid of it? use Andy's "untrusted graphs" design? other?

15:30:24 [Yoshio]

I prefer SOURCE remain

15:31:01 [SimonR]

If anything, I object to the fuzziness involved in making FROM advisory. It should be rigorous.

15:32:24 [ericP]

ericP has joined #dawg

15:32:30 [Yoshio]

tracking provenance and data federation is so important

15:32:52 [DanC]

(yes, it's so important that we should take our time and get it right and not rush it in v1, for my money)

15:33:28 [Yoshio]

(for your money??)

15:33:37 [DanC]

( in my opinion)

15:33:51 [SimonR]

+q

15:34:00 [AndyS]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/0421.html

15:34:11 [AndyS]

(examples)

15:34:58 [DanC]

ACTION DaveB: update http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data/source-named/ w.r.t http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/0421.html

15:35:05 [AndyS]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/0373.html

15:35:10 [AndyS]

The proposal

15:35:19 [DanC]

ACTION: JanneS propose text for hard failure in the protocol draft

15:35:21 [Yoshio]

simon, it is "q+"

15:35:37 [SimonR]

Yoshio: thanks. :)

15:36:06 [DanC]

ACTION: DanC suggest formal definitions for SOURCE. CONTINUES

15:37:37 [Zakim]

+PatH

15:38:26 [ericP]

SimonR: we could publish the document without source but making (reasonably) sure that we leave room for it

15:39:03 [ericP]

DanC: end of agenda. IRC log will serve as meeting record unless someone wants to do otherwise

15:39:04 [DanC]

ADJOURN.

15:39:34 [Zakim]

-JosD

15:39:37 [Yoshio]

moi moi

15:39:38 [SteveH]

AndyS, ericP, are we going to talk about the workshop?

15:39:39 [DanC]

PatH: do patterns have bnodes? AndyS: no.

15:39:56 [SteveH]

aye, tutorial

15:39:57 [Zakim]

-Yoshio

15:40:01 [Zakim]

-Kendall_Clark

15:42:15 [Zakim]

-DanC

15:42:25 [Zakim]

-Kevin

15:42:28 [Zakim]

-Simon_Raboczi

15:42:34 [Zakim]

-PatH

15:43:35 [DanC]

RRSAgent, make logs world-access

15:43:38 [DanC]

RRSAgent, bye

15:43:38 [RRSAgent]

I see 16 open action items:

15:43:38 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: DanC owner of issue 'yes or no questions' (was pending protocol doc) CONTINUED [1]

15:43:38 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/14-dawg-irc#T14-40-50

15:43:38 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: SteveH own (i.e. propose resolution to) disjunction issue CONTINUED [2]

15:43:38 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/14-dawg-irc#T14-40-59

15:43:38 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: EricP migrate some Algae UnionDisjunciton test cases CONTINUED [3]

15:43:38 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/14-dawg-irc#T14-41-15

15:43:38 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: EricP to find logistics re F2F5 at tech plenary in Boston March 28 Feb - 4 Mar (2 days). Some WG preference to Mon/Tue of that week. CONTINUED [4]

15:43:38 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/14-dawg-irc#T14-41-35

15:43:38 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: SteveH to review Dave's XML result set format [7]

15:43:38 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/14-dawg-irc#T14-43-35

15:43:38 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: EricP to publish XML result set document [8]

15:43:38 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/14-dawg-irc#T14-47-38

15:43:38 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Simon to counter-propose something re unbound results [9]

15:43:38 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/14-dawg-irc#T14-48-32

15:43:38 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: KendallC to publish "SPARQL Protocol for RDF" pending approval from TomA and AndyS [10]

15:43:38 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/14-dawg-irc#T14-49-36

15:43:38 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: KendallC expose our walking tour data to SPARQL querying clients [11]

15:43:38 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/14-dawg-irc#T14-54-14

15:43:38 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: SteveH is willing to adapt his testing infrastructure to generate input/output RDF/XML and typed nodes into manifest file [12]

15:43:38 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/14-dawg-irc#T14-56-48

15:43:38 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: EricP to deal with http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/0387.html, perhaps by proposing something to the WG. [15]

15:43:38 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/14-dawg-irc#T15-04-45

15:43:38 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: DaveB to propose replacement for tests that have ?foo, ?Bar [16]

15:43:38 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/14-dawg-irc#T15-16-34

15:43:38 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: SimonR to propose test case for scalar constraint with syntax uniform to graph constraints. CONTINUES. [17]

15:43:38 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/14-dawg-irc#T15-23-09

15:43:38 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: DaveB to update http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data/source-named/ w.r.t http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/0421.html [18]

15:43:38 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/14-dawg-irc#T15-34-58

15:43:38 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: JanneS propose text for hard failure in the protocol draft [19]

15:43:38 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/14-dawg-irc#T15-35-19

15:43:38 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: DanC suggest formal definitions for SOURCE. CONTINUES [20]

15:43:38 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/14-dawg-irc#T15-36-06