IRC log of tagmem on 2004-12-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

19:37:52 [RRSAgent]
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19:38:17 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #tagmem
19:38:28 [Stuart]
zakim, this will be TAG
19:38:28 [Zakim]
ok, Stuart; I see TAG_Weekly()2:30PM scheduled to start 8 minutes ago
19:55:00 [Norm]
Norm has joined #tagmem
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TAG_Weekly()2:30PM has now started
19:55:50 [Zakim]
+Norm
19:57:27 [Zakim]
+[IBMCambridge]
19:57:27 [Norm]
zakim, this is tag
19:57:28 [Zakim]
Norm, this was already TAG_Weekly()2:30PM
19:57:29 [Zakim]
ok, Norm; that matches TAG_Weekly()2:30PM
19:58:36 [Noah]
zakim, [IBMCambridge] is me
19:58:36 [Zakim]
+Noah; got it
19:59:05 [Zakim]
+Stuart
20:01:22 [Noah]
scribe: noah
20:01:30 [Noah]
scribenick: Noah
20:05:34 [Zakim]
+DanC
20:06:30 [Zakim]
+Roy
20:07:39 [Noah]
Topic: Administrivia
20:07:41 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
20:07:41 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Norm, Noah, Stuart, DanC, Roy
20:07:49 [Zakim]
+TimBL
20:07:51 [DanC]
regrets: CL
20:08:01 [Noah]
regrets: Paul Cotton
20:08:07 [Noah]
regrets: Chris Lilley
20:08:09 [DanC]
that's all 8 of us
20:08:18 [Noah]
present: Noah, Norm, Stuart, Dan, Roy, Tim
20:08:44 [Noah]
SW: We will meet next week, Dec. 20th
20:08:52 [Noah]
Regrets for Dec 20: Chris
20:09:04 [DanC]
Zakim, pick a scribe
20:09:05 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose DanC
20:09:12 [Noah]
Scribe for Dec. 20: Dan
20:10:27 [Noah]
Minutes for Dec: 6th accepted without dissent (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2004Dec/att-0009/tag-telcon-
20:10:27 [Noah]
20041206.html)
20:10:53 [Noah]
Try that again, the accepted minutes are at: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2004Dec/att-0009/tag-telcon-20041206.html
20:11:08 [Noah]
(sorry, that first one was a cut/paste error)
20:11:53 [Noah]
Agreement to accept minutes of F2F of Nov 29th & 30th: (http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/11/29-30-tag.html)
20:12:01 [Noah]
Topic: Tech Plenary
20:12:22 [Noah]
Steve suggests that there may be a panel or working session on Versioning at the tech plenary.
20:12:30 [Noah]
Stuart will talk to David Orchard tomorrow.
20:12:42 [Noah]
topic: WebArch Publication Status
20:12:47 [Stuart]
s/Orchard/Ezell
20:12:56 [DanC]
9 Dec draft http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/webarch-20041209/#id-resources
20:13:00 [DanC]
9 Dec draft http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/webarch-20041209/
20:13:37 [Noah]
Dan gives update on recent work on arch doc. See links immediately above.
20:13:41 [DanC]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/webarch-20041209/diff-from-pr.txt
20:13:49 [Noah]
And diff link above.
20:14:16 [Norm]
Norm has joined #tagmem
20:14:21 [DanC]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/webarch-20041209/diff-from-pr.txt
20:15:32 [Noah]
Discussing the diffs.
20:15:54 [Noah]
First comment is in response to comments from University of Edinburgh (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2004OctDec/0171.html)
20:16:24 [Noah]
I'm going to try and paste diffs..let's see if they come over OK.
20:16:25 [Noah]
This document is an example of an information resource. It consists of
20:16:25 [Noah]
words and punctuation symbols and graphics and other artifacts that
20:16:25 [Noah]
can be encoded, with varying degrees of fidelity, into a sequence of
20:16:25 [Noah]
bits. There is nothing about the essential information content of this
20:16:25 [Noah]
- document that cannot in principle be transfered in a representation.
20:16:27 [Noah]
+ document that cannot in principle be transfered in a message. In the
20:16:29 [Noah]
+ case of this document, the message payload is the representation of
20:16:31 [Noah]
+ this document.
20:17:04 [Noah]
Argh...getting behind...we are working through the diff-from-pr file. I will note any substantive discussion.
20:19:00 [Noah]
Dan reports "the director" is OK with all these, but has asked us as TAG to consider Nokia's comment (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2004OctDec/0170.html)
20:19:20 [DanC]
http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/PR-webarch-20041105/#id-resources
20:19:27 [Noah]
We are discussing Nokia comment #3, regarding namespaces.
20:19:38 [Noah]
Nokia's comment was:
20:19:39 [Noah]
3. Section 4.5.3. XML Namespaces, third paragraph
20:19:39 [Noah]
Current Text:
20:19:39 [Noah]
"... If namespace URIs that end with a hash ("#") are chosen,
20:19:39 [Noah]
then simple concatenation of the namespace URI and the local
20:19:39 [Noah]
name creates a URI for a secondary resource (the identified
20:19:41 [Noah]
term). This technique is used for many [RDFXML] namespaces."
20:19:43 [Noah]
Replacement Text:
20:19:45 [Noah]
"... Simple concatenation of the namespace URI and the local
20:19:47 [Noah]
name creates a URI for the identified term. This technique is
20:19:48 [Norm]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2004OctDec/0170.html
20:19:49 [Noah]
used for [RDFXML] namespaces."
20:20:46 [DanC]
note NM's suggestion [[
20:20:47 [DanC]
Replacement Text:
20:20:47 [DanC]
"... Simple concatenation of the namespace URI and the local
20:20:47 [DanC]
name creates a URI for the identified term. This technique is
20:20:47 [DanC]
used for [RDFXML] namespaces."
20:20:50 [DanC]
]]
20:21:14 [DanC]
oops; that was not NM's suggestion
20:21:40 [Noah]
Right, that was Nokia's suggestion (to which NM actually objects)
20:22:30 [Noah]
Tim: minimum is clean up text:
20:22:45 [timbl_]
[RDFXML] uses simple concatenation of the namespace URI and the local
20:22:45 [timbl_]
name to creates a URI for the identified term.
20:24:11 [timbl_]
I wish that RDFXML had added "#", but there we are.
20:24:36 [Noah]
Noah: I like that somewhat better than Nokia's. My concern with Nokia's is that it appears to apply even to namespaces that don't end in some sort of separator character.
20:24:55 [Noah]
Tim: right, and there's still the question of whether the concatenated URI is actually one that the owner intended to assign for the purpose
20:25:20 [Noah]
NW: I somewhat agree with Noah's concerns. Maybe we can talk about URI's ending in non-name characters?
20:27:10 [Noah]
Stuart: Noah, would you drop the whole para
20:27:22 [Noah]
NM: Yes, I guess so.
20:27:35 [Noah]
SW: I hear 3 proposals as follows:
20:27:45 [Noah]
From Norm: change reference to # to "separator characters"
20:27:49 [Noah]
From Noah: drop the para
20:27:56 [Noah]
From Tim: text quoted above?
20:28:20 [Noah]
SW: anyone who can't live any of these?
20:28:36 [Noah]
NW: yes, I don't like dropping the para (Norm, I didn't get the reason)
20:29:01 [Noah]
NW; drafting proposed text...
20:29:18 [DanC]
http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/PR-webarch-20041105/#xml-namespaces
20:29:24 [Norm]
s/that end with a hash ("#") are/that end with a punctuation or other non-Name character are/
20:30:16 [Noah]
NM: that's name char from XML rec?
20:30:18 [Noah]
NW: yes
20:30:27 [Noah]
DC: we're talking about XML namespaces here
20:32:21 [Noah]
I think this is the net of Norm's proposal:
20:32:22 [Noah]
For flat namespaces, concatenation is one useful mapping. If namespace URIs that end with a that end with a punctuation or other non-Name character are chosen, then simple concatenation of the namespace URI and the local name creates a URI for a secondary resource (the identified term). This technique is used for many [RDFXML] namespaces.
20:33:32 [Noah]
Some discussion of colon as an edge case.
20:34:57 [DanC]
RRSAgent, pointer?
20:34:57 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2004/12/13-tagmem-irc#T20-34-57
20:35:16 [Noah]
NW: important point, we need an algorithmic way of breaking these apart once they're together. By making sure there's a non-name char, we ensure that property.
20:35:44 [Noah]
TBL: In webarch, is this an example?
20:35:49 [Noah]
NW: it's a suggestion.
20:37:47 [Noah]
TBL: Suggesting you can use anything other than # prejudges httprange-14, at least insofar as once you use an x/y form to refer to a non-document resource.
20:38:05 [Noah]
??: Tim, do you object to the proposal to drop the text?
20:38:22 [Stuart]
s/??/Stuart/
20:38:30 [DanC]
(I sent "test case: colons in paths?" to uri@w3.org)
20:38:51 [Noah]
TBL: we talk about fragids elsewhere
20:39:06 [Norm]
q+
20:39:53 [Stuart]
ack Norm
20:39:54 [DanC]
ack norm
20:40:34 [Noah]
NW: perhaps we're at impasse. Nokia objects to #, Tim wants #, each feeling the other prejudges http-range14. Therefore, suggest Tim's text as best compromise.
20:40:53 [Noah]
NW: It mentions what RDF does, nothing more.
20:41:04 [Noah]
SW: I note some popular RDF namespaces end in "/"
20:41:12 [DanC]
reviewing, yes, I like: [[
20:41:12 [DanC]
<timbl_> [RDFXML] uses simple concatenation of the namespace URI and the local
20:41:12 [DanC]
<timbl_> name to creates a URI for the identified term. ]]
20:41:46 [Norm]
Proposal: For flat namespaces, concatenation is one useful mapping. This technique is used for many [RDFXML] namespaces.
20:42:36 [DanC]
(hmm... in fact, it's used for all RDFXML namespaces)
20:43:05 [timbl_]
Note that one set of mappings, such as those which either insert a hash sign or use simple allows the local identifier in XML syntax to be equal to the the fragment identifier in the URI syntax.
20:43:47 [DanC]
timbl, please do not refer to hash characters.
20:44:00 [Norm]
Proposal: For many flat namespaces, concatenation is one useful mapping. This technique is used by [RDFXML] namespaces.
20:44:28 [Norm]
s/ namespaces.//
20:44:36 [DanC]
i still prefer: [RDFXML] uses simple concatenation of the namespace URI and the local name to creates a URI for the identified term.
20:44:36 [Noah]
NM: How about /used by [RDFXML] namespaces/used by many [RDFXML] namespaces/
20:45:24 [Noah]
For many flat namespaces, concatenation is one useful mapping. This technique is used by [RDFXML] namespaces."
20:46:08 [Noah]
Proposal (again with correction): "For many flat namespaces, concatenation is one useful mapping. This technique is used by [RDFXML].""
20:46:41 [Noah]
TB: how about dropping work "many"
20:49:24 [DanC]
[[
20:49:25 [DanC]
[RDFXML] uses simple concatenation of the namespace URI and the local name to creates a URI for the identified term.
20:49:26 [DanC]
]]
20:49:38 [Noah]
NM: two problems (a) still a general problem if there is no separator at all (b) I now notice that if there's no separator, you are also prejudging http-range14
20:49:50 [Noah]
s/creates/create/
20:50:43 [Noah]
Proposal, replace the entire paragraph with: "[RDFXML] uses simple concatenation of the namespace URI and the local name to creates a URI for the identified term."
20:51:01 [Roy]
Roy has joined #tagmem
20:51:01 [Noah]
ALso in the proposal: merge with following paragraph.
20:51:26 [Noah]
Agreed without dissent.
20:51:56 [Noah]
ACTION: Dan to talk to Steve Bratt regarding changes to namespace and #
20:52:08 [Noah]
s/Agreed with dissent./Agreed without dissentions.
20:52:11 [Noah]
s/Agreed with dissent./Agreed without dissentions./
20:52:14 [Zakim]
+Roy_Fielding
20:52:17 [Zakim]
-Roy
20:53:07 [Noah]
SW: anything else to discuss with respect to webarch publication?
20:53:34 [Noah]
DC: You've seen press release, and there have been some comments. You only need to speak up if you want to get into the critical path.
20:53:50 [Noah]
DC: Goal is to get release out tomorrow, may slip to Wed.
20:54:04 [Noah]
NW: Slipping to Wed. would help Sun.
20:54:04 [Norm]
q+ to ask about Edinburgh and Stickler
20:54:26 [Noah]
SW: Any other testimonials expected?
20:55:10 [Noah]
NW: Are we satisfied that the work we've done would satisfy Edinburgh?
20:56:01 [Noah]
DC: The director has been in contact with commentator.
20:56:25 [DanC]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/webarch-20041209/diff-from-pr.txt
20:56:53 [DanC]
@@ -2539,7 +2544,9 @@
20:57:10 [Noah]
NW: Patrick Stickler has sent some additional comments about a week ago.
20:57:25 [Noah]
DC: see the diffs, we've made some changes.
20:59:22 [Norm]
Stickler: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2004OctDec/0169.html
21:00:38 [Norm]
q+
21:01:06 [Noah]
TBL: We seem to have dropped any mention that the namespace document is in any way connected to the URI that is the namespace name.
21:01:28 [timbl_]
The information resource identified by an XML Namespace URI
21:01:43 [timbl_]
+ An information resource that contains useful information,
21:01:43 [timbl_]
+ machine-processable and/or human-readable, about terms in a
21:01:44 [timbl_]
+ particular XML namespace.
21:02:02 [DanC]
(hmm... I thought the glossary was just excerpts from the main text. not so, evidently)
21:02:08 [Norm]
not so
21:02:54 [timbl_]
^that an XML Namespace URI^
21:02:59 [timbl_]
^that an XML Namespace URI identifies
21:03:05 [Norm]
ack norm
21:03:05 [Zakim]
Norm, you wanted to ask about Edinburgh and Stickler and to
21:03:20 [Noah]
Non-scribe contribution. Note that Stickler says:
21:03:22 [Noah]
"I again propose to the TAG that the definition of 'namespace document'
21:03:22 [Noah]
not reflect any presumption about what any given URI used as a
21:03:22 [Noah]
namespace name might identify, but to restrict the definition of
21:03:22 [Noah]
'namespace document' to the distinguishing characteristics of
21:03:22 [Noah]
that class of resource, and at most, to indicate that it is
21:03:23 [Noah]
considered useful to use URIs which identify namespace documents
21:03:25 [Noah]
as namespace names, without erroneously asserting that every URI
21:03:27 [Noah]
used as a namespace name identifies a namespace document."
21:03:36 [Noah]
q+
21:05:48 [Noah]
ack noah
21:06:38 [Noah]
TBL: I don't see him objecting to saying that the URI which is a namespace name can be used to identify a namespace document
21:07:01 [Noah]
TBL: Would Dave Ragett's (spelling?) book on HTML be a namespace document? Per our current definition, it would be.
21:07:14 [DanC]
(I abstain from any definitions that are written out of the context of the rest of the document.)
21:07:49 [Norm]
Proposal: An information resource identified by an XML Namespace URI that contains useful information, machine-usable and/or human-usable, about terms in a particular XML namespace. It is useful, though not manditory, that the URI employed as a namespace name identifies a namespace document.
21:08:03 [Noah]
SW: Notes that Patrick Stickler wrote: "It is useful, though not manditory,
21:08:03 [Noah]
that the URI employed as a namespace name identifies a namespace
21:08:03 [Noah]
document.
21:08:03 [Noah]
"
21:08:04 [Stuart]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2004OctDec/0169.html
21:09:11 [Noah]
SW: I'm OK with it, but not sure Patrick Stickler will be.
21:09:27 [Noah]
NW: but if we don't put this in, then the HTML book qualifies.
21:09:43 [Noah]
TBL: I'm not so sure he'd object.
21:09:56 [timbl_]
I would not expect him to object to that.
21:09:59 [Noah]
DC: I think the objection was to the suggestion that >every< NS URI necessarily points to such a document.
21:10:10 [timbl_]
+1 to Norm's proposal
21:10:17 [Noah]
SW: Calling the question on: "Proposal: An information resource identified by an XML Namespace URI that contains useful information, machine-usable and/or human-usable, about terms in a particular XML namespace. It is useful, though not manditory, that the URI employed as a namespace name identifies a namespace document."
21:10:25 [Noah]
Agreed without abstention.
21:10:37 [timbl_]
Agreed unanimously.
21:10:40 [DanC]
(hmm... now there are changes incoming from NDW and from IJ. interesting.)
21:13:01 [Noah]
NW: I've checked in already the two changes we've agreed to make today.
21:13:51 [Noah]
SW: anyone here in the critical path for press release?
21:13:53 [Noah]
DC: no
21:14:01 [Noah]
SW: anything more on webarch?
21:14:09 [Noah]
All: no
21:15:40 [DanC]
(hmm... who said they'd do something soon in http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/11/29-30-tag ? )
21:15:40 [Noah]
Topic: Issues and Findings
21:15:49 [Noah]
SW: any comments on the xml-chunk finding
21:16:00 [Noah]
NW: I've gotten some feedback, but haven't sorted it.
21:16:07 [Noah]
SW: possible agenda topic for next week?
21:16:09 [timbl]
before we break, I have one heads-up off the record.
21:16:13 [Noah]
NW: yes, I could do that
21:16:57 [DanC]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/11/29-30-tag#item08b
21:18:34 [Noah]
SW: let's have at least a brief telcon next week
21:19:22 [Norm]
DanC: I've checked in the two changes we discussed today, am I off the critical path for the WebArch REC?
21:19:37 [DanC]
hmm
21:20:02 [DanC]
if you prefer, yes. you're welcome to provide eyeballs on the final text, title page, SOTD, that sort of thing
21:20:21 [DanC]
i.e. as editor, you have right of review of the final bytes
21:20:30 [Norm]
Ok. I'm happy to provide eyeballs. I wasn't asking in an effort to get out of working, just to make sure we didn't have a deadlock :-)
21:23:01 [DanC]
ok, then I take it that you're not waiving that right, and you are, as of now, still on the critical path
21:23:15 [DanC]
you may wave it at any time
21:23:54 [DanC]
RRSAgent, make logs world-access
21:24:12 [Zakim]
-DanC
21:24:16 [Zakim]
-TimBL
21:24:17 [Zakim]
-Noah
21:24:17 [Zakim]
-Stuart
21:24:18 [Zakim]
-Norm
21:24:19 [Zakim]
TAG_Weekly()2:30PM has ended
21:24:20 [Zakim]
Attendees were Norm, Noah, Stuart, DanC, Roy, TimBL, Roy_Fielding
21:24:25 [Norm]
No, I'm not waiving it. I'll keep my eyeballs tuned :-)
21:27:08 [DanC]
RRSAgent, pointer?
21:27:08 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2004/12/13-tagmem-irc#T21-27-08
21:27:26 [DanC]
there, Noah, the logs are captured. Scribe duties include at least mailing a pointer to www-tag@w3.org
21:27:40 [DanC]
bonus points for editing it
21:28:31 [DanC]
there's a perl script that sorta makes nice HTML out of the IRC log, but if you haven't done it before, it's perhaps not worth bothering
21:31:06 [DanC]
hmm... I'm not entirely clear how we disposed of Nokia's 1st 2 points.
21:31:13 [DanC]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2004OctDec/0170.html
21:31:48 [DanC]
ugh... no "persistence" change in http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/webarch-20041209/diff-from-pr.txt
21:31:51 [Norm]
Gack. We started with point 3 so I assumed 1 and 2 had been done earlier.
21:32:33 [Norm]
Personally, I'm happy with the changes they propose.
21:32:39 [DanC]
let's see what Ian said about those... "I think TBL input is important here so I did not make any changes"
21:32:42 [DanC]
phpht.
21:37:29 [timbl_]
Norm?
21:39:50 [DanC]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2004OctDec/0170.html
21:40:04 [DanC]
RRSAgent, bye
21:40:04 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item:
21:40:04 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Dan to talk to Steve Bratt regarding changes to namespace and # [1]
21:40:04 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/13-tagmem-irc#T20-51-56