IRC log of wai-wcag on 2004-12-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:18:47 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
15:18:54 [wendy]
action: john contact jaws and ask what the limit is in other languages
15:19:00 [wendy]
action: john check with other screen reader makers to get some numbers of other screen readres
15:19:47 [wendy]
action: wendy watanabe-san and ueki-san about japanese length for alt-text
15:20:03 [wendy]
wac where get #s for german and korea? those were the #s that they gave us?
15:21:23 [wendy]
cr when translated a-prompt into germany and korea, these are the numbers we worked out with translators.
15:21:30 [wendy]
js what about language packs for a-tutor?
15:21:46 [ChrisR]
test 178 alt text must be meaningful http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/tests/test178.html
15:21:47 [wendy]
action: chris talk with greg gay about translations of a-tutor into other languages and differences in lenghts of alt-text
15:22:40 [wendy]
js hope that the lang in the SC is specific enough to be testable. if not, then we should change lang in the guideline. our goal is for guidelines to be as testable as possible.
15:22:57 [wendy]
js if we have one that says, text alt serve the same purpose and another that says convey same information...those should be testable.
15:23:10 [wendy]
js that feels more specific than "meaningful"
15:26:15 [wendy]
wac a test for each description in the guidelines/success criteria for meaningful based on context/purpose defined in the success criteria. i.e., For all non-text content that is used to convey information, text alternatives convey the same information.
15:26:20 [wendy]
cr like a separate test for each of those
15:27:33 [wendy]
action: chris change 178 to synch with SC.
15:28:02 [wendy]
action: chris ensure that all of the various contexts/purposes identified (for use of non-text content) each have a separate test to associate with it to determine "meaningful"
15:30:02 [wendy]
cr techs need to be updated to match changes in test suite
15:30:07 [wendy]
wac what are those changes?
15:30:37 [wendy]
js ensure that there are tests for the success criteria. in general, wher epossible, reuse the language from the success criteria.
15:33:33 [wendy]
action: wendy create polls based on chris' suggestions
15:34:25 [ChrisR]
test 4 decorative images http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/tests/test4.html
15:35:41 [wendy]
cr removed "important" so don't have to define it
15:35:59 [wendy]
js propose that we don't define "decorative" (as chris suggests), but use the Success Criteria language
15:36:16 [wendy]
js use, "Non-text content that does not provide information, functionality, or sensory experience is marked such that it can be ignored by assistive technology."
15:37:05 [wendy]
cr could we define decorative as "does not provide information, functionality, or sensory experience?"
15:37:17 [wendy]
wac we've spent 5 years arguing for that text, propose to save time that we use it
15:37:24 [wendy]
bg but then the text of the test is longer
15:38:11 [wendy]
bg makes it harder for the average person to use it
15:38:42 [wendy]
bg use "decorative" and on the same page, link to a definition
15:40:26 [wendy]
js even when we make it testable, there will still be difficult to know if it conforms or not
15:40:39 [wendy]
js it's not easy to tell if images are purely decorative ornot
15:40:55 [wendy]
js there are places where reasonable people disagree about whether something is decorative or not
15:41:44 [wendy]
bc what is the need for this test? if have a test that says, "all image have alt" and have another that says, "images with null alt are decorative" then why do we need this one?
15:42:21 [ChrisR]
test 16 decorative images must have alt http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/tests/test16.html
15:42:26 [wendy]
Test 16 - Decorative images must have null ALT text.
15:42:40 [wendy]
Test 4 - Non-Decorative images must have Alt text.
15:42:48 [Zakim]
-Alex_Li
15:43:06 [wendy]
bc the procedure says, "look for every alt with null" and confirm that it is non-decorative
15:43:26 [Zakim]
+Alex_Li
15:43:27 [wendy]
bc seems redundant
15:43:45 [wendy]
cr there is a success criteria to check for decorative images to make sure have null alt-text
15:44:06 [wendy]
test 16 = "Non-text content that does not provide information, functionality, or sensory experience is marked such that it can be ignored by assistive technology."
15:45:24 [wendy]
cr eval tools can ask the user to confirm that images with null alt have appropriate alt-text
15:45:48 [wendy]
cr get rid of 4, similar to 178, but keep 16
15:46:18 [wendy]
action: chris delete test 4
15:48:09 [ChrisR]
test 6 placeholder alt text http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/tests/test6.html
15:48:53 [wendy]
action: wendy check in w/michael about requirements doc, get something ready for TTF to review/discuss. flag language issue (similar or diff between SC and tests) e.g., use test 16 as example ("decorative" vs lang in SC - http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/tests/test16.html). then discuss on Thursday call.
15:49:29 [wendy]
bg question about placeholder text: is it spacer? is there an accessibility issue if it is null vs whitespace?
15:50:08 [wendy]
bc designed to deal with some of the WYSIWYG tools that insert value for alt that is not useful.
15:50:22 [wendy]
js confusing for screen readers - it says "graphic quote quote"
15:50:37 [wendy]
bg therefore, yes, there is an issue.
15:50:44 [wendy]
js using null, forces the screen readrs to be silent
15:51:05 [wendy]
bc historically there is debate about which way to go. screen readres used to only skip with a space, not with a null.
15:51:11 [wendy]
js that's about 3 years old
15:51:25 [wendy]
cr there is other placeholder text: file name, etc.
15:51:28 [wendy]
bg have a test for that?
15:51:32 [wendy]
cr yes
15:51:43 [wendy]
bc there are rare occastions where it is apropriate to be file name
15:51:51 [wendy]
bc if it is an icon to download a file
15:52:02 [wendy]
js would be "download filename" not just "filename"
15:52:20 [wendy]
al not if the whole page is a download page, then should have to say, "download 123" "download 234" etc
15:52:30 [wendy]
bg if there are not other images on the page and that's clear what you're doing
15:52:48 [wendy]
js i've never seen a download page that only had download on it
15:53:47 [wendy]
js if the purpose of the image is a link to download a file, the test that says, "text alt must serve the same purpose"...unless the image displays the filename, then the test for serving the same purpose, would mean alt-text should say "download..."
15:53:56 [wendy]
bg the text of the link has to say what the function is
15:54:37 [wendy]
cr this test is covered under 178, but this is a test to improve alt-text
15:55:49 [wendy]
action: chris roll the tests related to placeholder text into test 6
15:55:58 [wendy]
al what if the filename is meaningful?
15:56:32 [wendy]
cr in rare cases, filename will be meaningful and appropriate
15:57:46 [wendy]
bg some of the link tests apply
15:58:06 [wendy]
kk have read, "alt-text shouldn't be same as file name" so that 'readme.txt' is ok
15:58:42 [wendy]
chris will post next 10.
16:01:04 [Zakim]
-Alex_Li
16:01:05 [Zakim]
-Becky_Gibson
16:01:06 [Zakim]
-John_Slatin
16:01:07 [Zakim]
-Ken
16:01:08 [Zakim]
-Wendy
16:01:09 [Zakim]
-Chris
16:01:10 [wendy]
RRSAgent, make log world
16:01:10 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended
16:01:11 [Zakim]
Attendees were Alex_Li, Becky_Gibson, Wendy, Ken, Ben, Chris, John_Slatin
17:04:22 [ben]
Zakim, bye
17:04:22 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #wai-wcag
17:04:27 [ben]
RRSAgent, bye
17:04:27 [RRSAgent]
I see 10 open action items:
17:04:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: john contact jaws and ask what the limit is in other languages [1]
17:04:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/08-wai-wcag-irc#T15-18-54
17:04:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: john check with other screen reader makers to get some numbers of other screen readres [2]
17:04:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/08-wai-wcag-irc#T15-19-00
17:04:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: wendy watanabe-san and ueki-san about japanese length for alt-text [3]
17:04:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/08-wai-wcag-irc#T15-19-47
17:04:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: chris talk with greg gay about translations of a-tutor into other languages and differences in lenghts of alt-text [4]
17:04:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/08-wai-wcag-irc#T15-21-47
17:04:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: chris change 178 to synch with SC. [5]
17:04:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/08-wai-wcag-irc#T15-27-33
17:04:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: chris ensure that all of the various contexts/purposes identified (for use of non-text content) each have a separate test to associate with it to determine "meaningful" [6]
17:04:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/08-wai-wcag-irc#T15-28-02
17:04:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: wendy create polls based on chris' suggestions [7]
17:04:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/08-wai-wcag-irc#T15-33-33
17:04:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: chris delete test 4 [8]
17:04:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/08-wai-wcag-irc#T15-46-18
17:04:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: wendy check in w/michael about requirements doc, get something ready for TTF to review/discuss. flag language issue (similar or diff between SC and tests) e.g., use test 16 as example ("decorative" vs lang in SC - http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/tests/test16.html). then discuss on Thursday call. [9]
17:04:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/08-wai-wcag-irc#T15-48-53
17:04:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: chris roll the tests related to placeholder text into test 6 [10]
17:04:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/08-wai-wcag-irc#T15-55-49