20:07:46 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #tagmem
20:08:31 <Chris> Meeting: tag f2f
20:08:37 <Chris> Chair: Norm
20:08:42 <Chris> Scribe: TimBL
20:08:50 <timbl_> Norm:   Next meeting is f2f next week. i can't come the second day (Tuesday)
20:08:50 <Chris> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/11/22-tag
20:09:24 <timbl_> Paul: See email frpm email for details on meeting location (Stata center, >1 room)
20:09:36 <timbl_> Today is the 22nd November.
20:09:41 <timbl_> Zakim, who is on the call?
20:09:41 <Zakim> On the phone I see TimBL, Chris, paulc, Roy, Noah, Norm
20:10:16 <timbl_> Tim: Seocnd day oif f2f - regrets - conflict with W3C Steering Committee.
20:10:51 <timbl_> Chis:  Also I have a conflict with Interraction Domain meeting, on Tuesday 30th all day, but not clear which meeting I will go to
20:11:11 <Chris> minutes: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2004Nov/att-0028/tag-20041108.html
20:11:20 <timbl_> Norm: Anyone looked at the minues?
20:11:44 <Chris> "TimBL: WebDAV works on bits, including a filename, no metadata is transferred"
20:11:46 <timbl_> I didn't recognize "TimBL: WebDAV works on bits, including a filename, no metadata is transferred" from previous minutes http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2004Nov/att-0028/tag-20041108.html
20:11:54 <Chris> incorrectly attributed to TimBL
20:12:09 <timbl_> s/timbl/____?/
20:12:40 <timbl_> RESOLVED Minutes accepted with that ammendment
20:12:45 <timbl_> ____________
20:12:49 <timbl_> AC Meeting Prep:
20:13:48 <timbl_> Chris: Ian asked about TAG participation, DanC suggested none, Ian pushed back and so did Steve Bratt.
20:14:00 <Chris> I'm happy to do a talk if required; mainly to point to existing PR and to ask for scope of next version
20:14:34 <Chris> timbl: talk about how to prioritize things for next version
20:14:37 <timbl_> Tim: Yes, it was felt we couldn't go to PR after all this time without comment.
20:14:53 <timbl_> Paul:  There were suggestions form IAn on what we could do.
20:15:31 <timbl_> .... The excitemnt of reaching PR, te csope, of it, the priorities, summizing of last 3 years.
20:16:55 <paulc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2004Nov/0072.html
20:17:08 <timbl_> tx
20:17:25 <timbl_> Paul: We are onthe agenda and we should discuss what to say at hte face-face meeting.
20:19:00 <timbl_> [discussion of format]
20:19:18 <timbl_> Anyone who is at the meeting will be at the front.
20:19:21 <timbl_> _______________________
20:19:29 <timbl_> Technical Plenary meeting
20:19:48 <timbl_> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/11/22-tag   Section 1.2
20:20:10 <timbl_> Stuart is stick handling here.  Ongoing, Stuart to report at face-face.
20:21:08 <timbl_> Noah:  During the non-meeting last week I agreed to get schema folks to participate, David Orchard may contribute, David Ezell as chair may both be involved.
20:21:09 <paulc> WS-Addressing liaison at TP: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2004Nov/0106.html
20:21:25 <timbl_> Norm: re face-face next week or TP?
20:21:41 <timbl_> Noah: sorry, f2f next week.
20:21:58 <timbl_> ...ikn case we want to go further with Schema.
20:25:17 <timbl_> Paul:   Noah, be aware that before you joined, we used to use less AC meeting and mor TP time, and specifically for tech stuff including versioning.
20:25:47 <timbl_> Noah:  Sounds aas though there is serious work on versioning on both sides, and so liaison good.
20:26:05 <timbl_> Paul:   We are open to any laiision on this --- open to any form of response.
20:26:08 <timbl_> ___________________
20:26:15 <timbl_> Item 1.3   TAG charter
20:26:28 <timbl_> Norm: Reviews are open till Dec 3.
20:26:32 <timbl_> Any comment?
20:26:47 <timbl_> [no]
20:26:51 <timbl_> _____________________
20:27:08 <timbl_> Inserted  agenda item   1.4
20:27:24 <timbl_> Setting the face-face agenda.
20:27:41 <timbl_> Paul:  Can we please discuss this
20:27:56 <Norm> Draft agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2004Nov/0101.html
20:27:59 <timbl_> ...; We are planning a video conf with Stuart in the morning only, so we will start promptly at 9am.
20:28:24 <timbl_> lunch has been arranged, and whiteboard and video projectors, zakim bridge number, video conference number.
20:28:38 <timbl_> Zakim will be ususal passcode, 4 lines all day.
20:28:57 <timbl_> ...Two outstanding options.
20:29:04 <timbl_> ... Dinner Monday night?
20:29:15 <timbl_> ... (ask for reservation?)
20:29:19 <Chris> +1 for dinner
20:30:14 <timbl_> ... Lets.  go with the flow and reserev on the fly prob fo 5-6 on Monday.
20:30:16 <Chris> no advannce reservation
20:30:19 <timbl_> RESOLVED.
20:30:42 <timbl_> Paul: Will we need speakerphoine for Tuesday pm?
20:30:46 <timbl_> Norm: Yes
20:31:16 <timbl_> ______________________
20:31:27 <timbl_> DARFT Agenda
20:31:44 <timbl_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2004Nov/0101.html
20:32:15 <DanC-AIM> DanC-AIM has joined #tagmem
20:32:39 <timbl_> Norm: To construct slides, we will need 45-90 mins for AC meeting prep.
20:33:25 <timbl_> Norm: [discusses darft agenda 0101.html]
20:33:55 <paulc> F2F rooms: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2004Nov/0091.html
20:34:20 <paulc> F2F: Monday, November 28th, Stata Center, Room 262 [1] (video teleconference 
20:34:47 <timbl_> Norm:  Clusetring of items has been sent out  -- see 2.3 on this agenda
20:36:22 <Chris> Do we plan to approve any draft findings?
20:36:49 <Chris> Or find which ones are not moving and decide what do do about that (action, drop, etc)
20:37:50 <Chris> Paul said, a bit of both I think
20:38:10 <timbl_> Paul:    I don't think we will approve any draft findings, only current ones really are 
20:38:27 <timbl_> ... the one Chris is working on and teh one Norm did.
20:38:35 <timbl_> ... We haev only reposted one draft finding.
20:39:40 <paulc> F2F is to attack both issues and findings to determine our future work.
20:40:12 <Chris> q+ to talk about that
20:40:16 <paulc> We will have to decide which issues are the most important post-Rec and also decide which findings we want to do more work on.
20:40:27 <Norm> ack chris
20:40:27 <Zakim> Chris, you wanted to talk about that
20:40:31 <timbl_> Meeting room, by the way:   http://www.csail.mit.edu/resources/maps/2/262.gif
20:41:07 <timbl_> Chris:  They are confused because we are trying to say stg different.  His points are good -- however those points were supposed to convey tsg diffrent.
20:41:33 <timbl_> That is, fi you have a choice of representations, you can either select on the server or on teh client.
20:41:50 <timbl_> We should say that they are correct and that we were talking about something different.
20:42:14 <timbl_> That means that the finding means to be improved, as that is how   we clarify things.
20:42:17 <timbl_> Norm:
20:42:24 <Chris> we were talking about the DIselect type content adaptation
20:42:37 <timbl_>    >... i agree tha ta ddressing eth finding would be good but we have to address the comment too.
20:42:52 <timbl_> ACTION Chris repsond to Hakon by the face-face meeting
20:44:13 <timbl_> ACTION Chris propose improved text for the document by the face-face.
20:44:14 <Chris> a) talk with Hakon about what we meant
20:44:37 <Chris> b) propose text for AWWW for agreement at f2f
20:45:35 <timbl_> _______________
20:45:55 <timbl_> Norm:  Second comment is editorial - the glossay definition of Namespeace Dcouemnt is bogus
20:46:00 <Chris> do we agree his example is valid
20:46:01 <Chris> <foo xmlns="mailto:patrick.stickler@nokia.com">...</foo>
20:46:24 <Chris> its a URI
20:46:27 <timbl_> ...This is a URI
20:46:38 <timbl_> .... Is the rqeuiremnt aht it has to be a URI
20:46:39 <Chris> so, it seems correct per spec. unusual, but not incorrect
20:46:45 <Chris> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2004OctDec/0156.html
20:47:57 <Noah> FWIW: As a matter of definition from XML Namespaces 1.1 (http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-names11/#concepts)
20:48:02 <timbl_> Raoy: I think he means that if theer is an information resource then it is a namespaec dcoument.
20:48:04 <Noah> [Definition: An XML namespace is identified by an IRI reference; element and attribute names may be placed in an XML namespace using the mechanisms described in this specification. ] 
20:49:08 <timbl_> [discussion]
20:49:12 <Chris> wondering .... xmlns:="about:"
20:49:16 <timbl_> Norm: NS spec doesn't precldue mailto here
20:50:27 <Chris> response: example its a valid but stupid thing to do ...
20:51:10 <timbl_> Noah:  One could imagine being tempted to use a NS URI which is a mailbox if one had a system with one ns per mailbx ,   ....
20:51:37 <timbl_> Norm: It is not good to do that, and we do say that it is godo to have a NS document. We say HHTP URIs are good for this.
20:51:44 <Noah> Agreed.
20:53:10 <Chris> xmln="tel:+33123456789"
20:54:11 <Noah> ...which gets you a fax machine that sends you the namespace document? :-)
20:54:35 <timbl_> RESOLVED change workding as Roy recommended, vix that if the NS URI identifies and Information Resource, then that IR is the NS document.
20:54:55 <timbl_> RESOLVED that disposes of that comment
20:55:10 <timbl_> ACTION Norm respond to that.
20:55:16 <Chris> per the spec, its valid if it gets you a 'this number is not in service' voice message .....
20:56:05 <timbl_> Tim: NO, just because a phone number results in a message does NOT mean the phione number is an identifier of a messgae. it still identifies a PSTN end point.
20:56:10 <timbl_> __________________________________
20:56:18 <Noah> I thought you'd say that...
20:57:02 <timbl_> Norm: Last up we have some push back from Steve Bratt COO on the use of "edition"  as the XML and NS documents have used it in a different spirit.
20:57:14 <timbl_> ... In message 0090 he and Steve discuss this.
20:58:23 <timbl_> Roy:    Why not use "Edition"?
20:58:36 <timbl_> Tim:  "Edition" in W3C is a specific term.
20:59:09 <Chris> Some specifications use 'Level' for different versions of a spec where level n+1 
20:59:28 <Chris> has more stuff than Level n
20:59:37 <timbl_> Tim:  We didn't want to do levels as it isn't l;evels of the technoolgy, only of the document.
21:00:13 <timbl_> Chris: Will the next editiion be a superset?
21:00:32 <timbl_> Norm:   I said I don't mind being "first edition" as on fact we can change the title.
21:00:44 <timbl_> .... Shjoudl we call it "edition 2004"?
21:01:00 <timbl_> Tim: Does that avoid "Edition".
21:01:35 <Zakim> -paulc
21:01:42 <timbl_> Paul: I must leave, ay be late on Monday morning for the face-face.
21:02:39 <timbl_> Norm:   I assumed:  "the Architectrue of the WWW"  "The architecture of the WS" "  "ASW"
21:02:52 <timbl_> Tim:  [surprised]   you mean no content from this one in next one?
21:03:07 <timbl_> Noah: But is we feel we could improve on this document's scope?
21:03:19 <timbl_> ... like XMLns going from 1.0 to 1.1
21:04:11 <timbl_> Tim: Agreed .. but we can still rename it even if it has large overlap.
21:05:06 <timbl_> Noah:   But we really might eant to rev this document.... and rev it incompatibly ... we may have made a mistake, we may decide.
21:05:28 <timbl_> Noah: If XMLNS 1.1 brought in IRIs etc.
21:05:53 <timbl_> ... Maybe this is "AWWW v1 edition1"
21:06:42 <timbl_> Chris:  Maybe we want to be able to revise some little bits without putting in the new document.
21:06:44 <Chris> we might want to to an AWWW2 that references AWWW1, and also might want to do an AWWW second edition that lightly revs the original AWWW
21:07:04 <timbl_> Tim: Is the proposal then to drop "First Edition"?
21:07:08 <timbl_> Chris: OK
21:07:11 <Noah> +1
21:07:13 <timbl_> Roy: OK
21:07:18 <Norm> +1
21:07:35 <timbl_> Paul had said that he would concur for the rest of the meeting.
21:07:53 <timbl_> Norm: He agrees anyway.
21:08:10 <timbl_> RESOLVED:   We drop the "First Edition" part of the title.
21:08:37 <timbl_> _____________________________
21:09:04 <timbl_> 2.2 Versioning and Extensabbility
21:09:05 <timbl_> Norm:
21:09:36 <timbl_>  We have an existing finding and a bunch of wor from David orchard, and DO and I have talked about updating the document with some of those ideas.
21:10:13 <timbl_> ... i agreed to produce a new draft by the end of tomorrow or early on Wednesdya, for sending on Thursdaay, forgetting atht Thursday was Thanksgiving, so that may not happen.
21:10:23 <timbl_> ... I don't know who will have read it.
21:10:31 <timbl_> Chris:  I will be able to read it.
21:10:50 <Chris> Chris, Paul, Stuart might not be affected by US thanksgiving
21:10:55 <timbl_> ... and paul may be able to
21:11:34 <timbl_> ____________________________
21:11:37 <timbl_> TAG ISSUES
21:12:00 <timbl_> Norm: can we have an update please?
21:12:26 <timbl_> Chris: re putMediaTypes, sorry I haven't sent in my work on that.
21:12:46 <Chris> there has been some discussion on http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html#RFC3023Charset-21 as well
21:12:51 <timbl_> Roy: To soem extentthe fidning on Metadata incorporates both directions and so may end up answering this issue
21:14:07 <timbl_> Chris:   The charset issue has attarcted some criticsm on public-www-tag and some IETF lists, saying we conflict with RFC____
21:15:06 <DanC> DanC has joined #tagmem
21:15:14 <timbl_> Re finding on message metadata ...
21:16:10 <Noah> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/mime-respect.html
21:16:32 <Chris> q+
21:16:43 <timbl_> Authoritative Metadata
21:16:43 <timbl_> TAG Finding 25 February 2004
21:17:57 <timbl_> Noah:  MediaType management 45 --  was that addressed last meeting?
21:18:23 <Norm> s/Noah:/Norm:/ :-)
21:18:40 <timbl_> Chris: It wasn't last meeting, but uit has come up in the community recently, specifically different XML document types such as XSLT and XForms
21:20:20 <timbl_> ADJOURNED
21:20:29 <Zakim> -Roy
21:20:38 <Zakim> -TimBL
21:20:39 <Zakim> -Norm
21:20:39 <Zakim> -Chris
21:20:40 <Zakim> -Noah
21:20:41 <Zakim> TAG_Weekly()2:30PM has ended
21:20:42 <Zakim> Attendees were TimBL, Chris, +1.732.962.aaaa, Roy, Norm, Noah, paulc
21:26:10 <DanC> DanC has left #tagmem
23:11:49 <Chris> Chris has left #tagmem
23:35:44 <Zakim> Zakim has left #tagmem