IRC log of wai-wcag on 2004-10-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

19:45:50 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
19:46:23 [rscano]: rscano has changed the topic to: +1 617.761.6200 passcode 9224 ("WCAG")
19:47:50 [rellero]: rellero has joined #wai-wcag
19:47:59 [rellero]: Hi
19:48:15 [rscano]: hi
19:58:24 [Zakim]: WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has now started
19:58:31 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
19:59:13 [Zakim]: +??P1
19:59:35 [Zakim]: +Wendy
19:59:47 [Zakim]: +Alex_Li
19:59:48 [bengt]: zakim, ??P1 is Bengt_Farre
19:59:48 [Zakim]: +Bengt_Farre; got it
19:59:53 [bcaldwell]: bcaldwell has joined #wai-wcag
19:59:56 [bengt]: zakim, I am Bengt_Farre
19:59:56 [Zakim]: ok, bengt, I now associate you with Bengt_Farre
20:00:12 [nabe]: nabe has joined #wai-wcag
20:00:15 [Gez]: Gez has joined #wai-wcag
20:00:37 [wendy]: zakim, who's making noise?
20:00:53 [Zakim]: wendy, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
20:01:09 [wendy]: zakim, who's making noise?
20:01:19 [wendy]: zakim, who's on the phone?
20:01:19 [Zakim]: On the phone I see [Microsoft], Bengt_Farre, Wendy, Alex_Li
20:01:23 [Zakim]: wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [Microsoft] (58%)
20:01:25 [wendy]: zakim, mute Microsoft
20:01:25 [Zakim]: sorry, wendy, I do not see a party named 'Microsoft'
20:01:28 [Zakim]: +Michael_Cooper
20:01:32 [wendy]: zakim, mute [Microsoft]
20:01:32 [Zakim]: [Microsoft] should now be muted
20:01:36 [Zakim]: +Tom
20:01:42 [wendy]: zakim, mute Bengt
20:01:42 [Zakim]: Bengt_Farre should now be muted
20:01:47 [wendy]: zakim, mute Alex
20:01:47 [Zakim]: Alex_Li should now be muted
20:01:48 [sh1mmer]: Zakim, I am Tom
20:01:48 [Zakim]: ok, sh1mmer, I now associate you with Tom
20:01:53 [wendy]: zakim, who's on the phone?
20:01:53 [Zakim]: On the phone I see [Microsoft] (muted), Bengt_Farre (muted), Wendy, Alex_Li (muted), Michael_Cooper, Tom (muted)
20:01:55 [bengt]: wasnt me :)
20:02:08 [wendy]: zakim, unmute Alex
20:02:08 [Zakim]: Alex_Li should no longer be muted
20:02:16 [Zakim]: +??P5
20:02:49 [wendy]: zakim, mute Alex
20:02:49 [Zakim]: Alex_Li should now be muted
20:02:49 [nabe]: zakim, ??P5 is Takayuk_Watanabei
20:02:50 [Zakim]: +Takayuk_Watanabei; got it
20:02:57 [wendy]: zakim, unmute [Microsoft]
20:02:57 [Zakim]: [Microsoft] should no longer be muted
20:03:05 [wendy]: zakim, [Microsoft] is Mike_Barta
20:03:05 [Zakim]: +Mike_Barta; got it
20:03:12 [Zakim]: +??P7
20:03:17 [Zakim]: +Becky_Gibson
20:03:20 [Zakim]: +[IBM]
20:03:24 [wendy]: zakim, ??P7 is David_MacDonald
20:03:24 [Zakim]: +David_MacDonald; got it
20:03:25 [Becky]: Becky has joined #wai-wcag
20:03:29 [wendy]: zakim, [IBM] is Andi
20:03:29 [Zakim]: +Andi; got it
20:03:33 [wendy]: zakim, who's on the phone?
20:03:33 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Mike_Barta, Bengt_Farre (muted), Wendy, Alex_Li (muted), Michael_Cooper, Tom (muted), Takayuk_Watanabei, David_MacDonald, Becky_Gibson, Andi
20:03:38 [Zakim]: +??P6
20:03:48 [rellero]: zakim, ??P6 is Roberto_Ellero
20:03:48 [Zakim]: +Roberto_Ellero; got it
20:03:49 [Zakim]: +??P10
20:03:53 [Andi]: Andi has joined #wai-wcag
20:04:01 [nabe]: zakim, I am Takayuki_Watanabe
20:04:01 [Zakim]: sorry, nabe, I do not see a party named 'Takayuki_Watanabe'
20:04:02 [Zakim]: -??P10
20:04:02 [rellero]: zakim, I am Roberto_Ellero
20:04:03 [Zakim]: ok, rellero, I now associate you with Roberto_Ellero
20:04:06 [Zakim]: +John_Slatin
20:04:07 [Zakim]: +??P11
20:04:09 [rellero]: zakim, mute me
20:04:09 [Zakim]: Roberto_Ellero should now be muted
20:04:19 [nabe]: zakim, ??P5 is Takayuki_Watanabe
20:04:19 [Zakim]: I already had ??P5 as Takayuk_Watanabei, nabe
20:04:20 [wendy]: zakim, ??P11 is Ben_and_Gregg
20:04:20 [Zakim]: +Ben_and_Gregg; got it
20:04:22 [Becky]: zakim, I am Becky_Gibson
20:04:22 [Zakim]: ok, Becky, I now associate you with Becky_Gibson
20:04:28 [wendy]: zakim, who's on the phone?
20:04:28 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Mike_Barta, Bengt_Farre (muted), Wendy, Alex_Li (muted), Michael_Cooper, Tom (muted), Takayuk_Watanabei, David_MacDonald, Becky_Gibson, Andi, Roberto_Ellero
20:04:31 [Zakim]: ... (muted), John_Slatin, Ben_and_Gregg
20:05:11 [Zakim]: +??P10
20:05:28 [wendy]: zakim, ??P10 is Roberto_Scano
20:05:28 [Zakim]: +Roberto_Scano; got it
20:05:35 [Zakim]: +JasonWhite
20:05:37 [nabe]: zakim, I am Takayuk_Watanabei
20:05:37 [Zakim]: ok, nabe, I now associate you with Takayuk_Watanabei
20:05:38 [rscano]: zakim, I'm Roberto_Scano
20:05:38 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'I'm Roberto_Scano', rscano
20:05:45 [rscano]: zakim, I am Roberto_Scano
20:05:45 [Zakim]: ok, rscano, I now associate you with Roberto_Scano
20:06:01 [gregg]: gregg has joined #wai-wcag
20:06:08 [bengt]: skype is free
20:07:06 [rscano]: zakim, who is here?
20:07:06 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Mike_Barta, Bengt_Farre (muted), Wendy, Alex_Li (muted), Michael_Cooper, Tom (muted), Takayuk_Watanabei, David_MacDonald, Becky_Gibson, Andi, Roberto_Ellero
20:07:09 [Zakim]: ... (muted), John_Slatin, Ben_and_Gregg, Roberto_Scano (muted), JasonWhite
20:07:10 [Zakim]: On IRC I see gregg, Andi, Becky, Gez, nabe, bcaldwell, rellero, RRSAgent, Zakim, bengt, rscano, Michael, wendy, MDuerst, sh1mmer
20:07:23 [Zakim]: +Loretta_Guarino_Reid
20:08:30 [wendy]: Topic: TTF update
20:08:37 [wendy]: mc spent most of the day talking about checklists.
20:09:09 [wendy]: mc how checklists, test files, techniques, etc. relate to each other. primary topic for f2f.
20:09:27 [wendy]: mc experimentally started linking from techniques to test files.
20:09:53 [wendy]: mc internal drafts this friday
20:10:37 [wendy]: mc public in november. trying to address as many issues as can before then.
20:10:46 [wendy]: Topic: 1.2
20:11:27 [David_MacDonald]: David_MacDonald has joined #wai-wcag
20:13:28 [wendy]: wac really close to sending to the group, but not quite. trying to list which issues it closes. have several questions but doesn't make sense to address until people have had a chance to review.
20:14:32 [wendy]: wac working to close 32 issues
20:15:31 [wendy]: Next: moving to open issues, moved JIS dicussion to last 30 minutes
20:15:47 [nabe]: Thank you for rearranging the agenda.
20:16:36 [sh1mmer]: nabe it is nice that you are happy to participate so early.
20:16:55 [wendy]: http://tinyurl.com/44j2v
20:17:19 [wendy]: bc currently 400+ issues for WCAG 2.0...not all of the issues are in the mailing list.
20:17:26 [wendy]: bc need help to close the issues
20:17:48 [wendy]: bc good to see upward trend of issues that are being closed, but also open increasing.
20:17:55 [wendy]: first set (above uri) - need people to take action items.
20:18:07 [wendy]: going through them:
20:18:08 [wendy]: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=307
20:18:38 [wendy]: looking at xx-small support in user agents and asst. technologies.
20:18:49 [wendy]: which browsers? how far back?
20:19:08 [wendy]: [question from dmd]
20:19:27 [wendy]: bc particularly need background check with screen readers and screen magnifiers
20:20:07 [wendy]: js not much of an issue for screen readers
20:20:24 [wendy]: bg braille?
20:21:04 [wendy]: js hpr and jaws can be set to tell it that "pronounce bold in lower voice"
20:21:15 [wendy]: wac do that for font sizes?
20:21:28 [wendy]: wac want it?
20:23:51 [wendy]: action: david test 307 with screen magnifiers and screen readers, john test with screen readers
20:24:51 [wendy]: action: nobody do some research on xx-small....xx-* support on mobile phones
20:25:12 [wendy]: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=368
20:25:19 [wendy]: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=501
20:25:44 [wendy]: lumping these 2 together - both are talking about differences between 1.0 and 2.0 and audience/understandability.
20:26:11 [wendy]: bc someone need to look at Appendix C: http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-WCAG20-20040730/#id4518765
20:26:19 [wendy]: bc bring this section up-to-date
20:26:57 [wendy]: bc good to clarify before the next public draft
20:27:17 [wendy]: js draft overview of wcag 2.0 - there is clear language there.
20:28:42 [wendy]: action: wendy approach shawn about overview/appendix/intro and coordinating issues related to issues 368 and 501
20:28:57 [wendy]: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=381
20:29:07 [wendy]: js think this is moot
20:29:12 [wendy]: action: john address issue 381
20:29:21 [wendy]: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=592
20:29:57 [wendy]: for tomorrow's draft, lots of work on normative sections on 1.4/1.5, but did not touch informative (examples)
20:30:47 [wendy]: action: gregg look at examples for 1.4/1.5
20:30:57 [wendy]: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=702
20:31:03 [wendy]: bc examples related to guideline 3.3
20:31:25 [wendy]: there is no 3.3
20:32:08 [wendy]: js i rewrote the "concrete concept" example, didn't get incorporated. will resend.
20:32:22 [wendy]: 702 overlaps 381
20:32:31 [wendy]: action: john address 702 (related to 381)
20:32:43 [wendy]: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1021
20:32:55 [wendy]: action: becky proposal to close issue 1021
20:35:08 [wendy]: bc next batch are public comments that need answers
20:35:24 [wendy]: action: wendy and becky talk at the f2f about editing xml source
20:35:41 [wendy]: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=487
20:35:57 [wendy]: Are tables used for layout (i.e. to structure content) a violation of guideline 1.3?
20:36:16 [wendy]: bc guidelines themselves don't make it clear, has been work on html techniques.
20:36:53 [wendy]: js not technically a violation, if using a data table, must make the relationships perceivale, but doesn't say "can't use talbes for layout"
20:37:13 [gregg]: ack john
20:37:23 [gregg]: q+
20:37:26 [wendy]: js if you use tables for layout, still have to make other relationships clear. can't just use tables to indicate relationships, have to markup structure
20:37:32 [wendy]: ack loretta
20:38:01 [wendy]: lgr initial intention of tables is that they be data, but the reality is that if we limit to data, we'd be "swimming upstream"
20:38:08 [wendy]: ack gregg
20:38:15 [sh1mmer]: q+
20:38:46 [wendy]: gv what does the html spec do?
20:38:57 [T_SEKI]: T_SEKI has joined #wai-wcag
20:39:17 [rscano]: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/tables.html#h-11.1.1
20:39:20 [wendy]: gv nothing to prevent you from using a table for layout, if you do don't need to do headers.
20:39:29 [nabe]: good morning Seki san!
20:39:43 [sh1mmer]: q-
20:40:10 [T_SEKI]: Good morning
20:40:39 [rscano]: Ohayou :)
20:40:48 [wendy]: gv propose to close by saying, "nothing in 1.3 that prevents use of tables for layout. If there is a relationship in info between the cells, then you must expose it."
20:40:55 [wendy]: js i've got that in general techniques.
20:41:16 [rscano]: we can refer to "old" WCAG 1.0 checkpoint 5.4
20:41:22 [wendy]: gv furthermore, 4.1 says to use things according to spec, and it is up to html wg to answer if use of layout for tables is allowed.
20:41:33 [wendy]: gv thus, we don't prevent it and don'thav ethe authority to reinterpret.
20:42:00 [wendy]: js html-specific question, thus not in guidelines.
20:42:09 [wendy]: gv perhaps a comment for techs doc.
20:42:13 [wendy]: zakim, who's making noise?
20:42:27 [Zakim]: wendy, listening for 12 seconds I heard sound from the following: Takayuk_Watanabei (42%), Ben_and_Gregg (3%), John_Slatin (91%), Loretta_Guarino_Reid (3%)
20:42:37 [sh1mmer]: q+
20:42:39 [bcaldwell]: bcaldwell has joined #wai-wcag
20:42:49 [wendy]: zakim, mute takayuk
20:42:49 [Zakim]: Takayuk_Watanabei should now be muted
20:42:56 [nabe]: q+ to say "I wonder how many audience can undersrtand these things?"
20:43:04 [wendy]: ack john
20:43:18 [nabe]: zakim ,unmute me
20:43:56 [sh1mmer]: Zakim, unmute nabe
20:43:56 [Zakim]: sorry, sh1mmer, I do not see a party named 'nabe'
20:44:01 [wendy]: gv anyone want to speak against that conclusion
20:44:17 [sh1mmer]: ack Tom
20:44:18 [wendy]: ack tom
20:44:19 [bcaldwell]: q+
20:44:47 [wendy]: tc see the use of tables as degrading the experience of someone using a screen reader. w/current css support, no need to do it.
20:45:14 [gregg]: q+
20:45:39 [wendy]: tc unacceptable that peoplehave to switch between navigation modes (time it takes to do it0
20:45:41 [wendy]: ack takayuk
20:45:43 [Zakim]: Takayuk_Watanabei, you wanted to say "I wonder how many audience can undersrtand these things?"
20:46:02 [wendy]: tw no one can understand this discussion by only reading the guideline.
20:46:19 [wendy]: tw we need an explanation.
20:46:44 [sh1mmer]: ack gregg
20:46:51 [wendy]: gv there are 2 places that we will make it clear. one is in the technology-specific techniques and the other is the checklist.
20:47:01 [wendy]: gv we will not make it clear in the guidelines because it is an html-specific topic.
20:47:51 [wendy]: gv we don't want to be ambiguous, so will provide information but not at the guideline level
20:48:14 [sh1mmer]: ack bcaldwell
20:48:16 [wendy]: ack ben
20:48:34 [nabe]: zakim ,mute me
20:48:38 [wendy]: bc in response, specifically include a recommendation. "we don't prohibit tables, but we suggest use css"
20:48:52 [wendy]: bc prohibiting tables issue related to authoring tools
20:49:12 [wendy]: gv perhaps at level 3, say don't use tables
20:49:27 [wendy]: gv need to figure what guideline that would fit under
20:49:30 [wendy]: ack andi
20:49:52 [wendy]: asw like ben's approach. "recommend css, but if you use tables for layout we give you guidance for how to use"
20:49:55 [wendy]: ack jason
20:50:07 [wendy]: jw agree with gregg and ben's proposals.
20:50:53 [sh1mmer]: q+
20:51:42 [wendy]: ack john
20:52:05 [wendy]: js where put something related to layout tables? perhaps 2.4
20:52:47 [wendy]: js at level 3?
20:53:11 [sh1mmer]: ack tom
20:53:59 [wendy]: tc everyone seems to agree that pages w/out layout tables are better. perhaps not instead of put it somewhere, make it similar to scoping? (e.g., phase-in of multimedia) make it a scoping issue.
20:54:31 [wendy]: dmd don't think css support is there yet to totally abandon tables
20:56:24 [wendy]: gv any objection to saying that nothing in 1.3 prevents use of tables for layout?
20:56:59 [wendy]: no one objects
20:57:26 [wendy]: gv add a note that says we may (at level 3) say that no tables are used for layout
20:57:27 [Zakim]: +??P15
20:57:51 [wendy]: no one objects to that statement
20:58:12 [wendy]: gv whether tables are allowed under 4.1 is something that is not determined by this committee but by html wg
20:58:16 [wendy]: zakim, who's making noise?
20:58:27 [Zakim]: wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Andi (9%), Ben_and_Gregg (19%), Loretta_Guarino_Reid (27%), ??P15 (76%), Wendy (28%)
20:58:54 [wendy]: zakim, mute ??P15
20:58:54 [Zakim]: ??P15 should now be muted
20:59:09 [wendy]: no one disagrees
20:59:37 [wendy]: zakim, unmute ??P15
20:59:37 [Zakim]: ??P15 should no longer be muted
20:59:38 [MDuerst]: zakim, dial Martin-617
20:59:38 [Zakim]: ok, MDuerst; the call is being made
20:59:40 [Zakim]: +Martin
20:59:52 [wendy]: zakim, ??P15 is Makoto
20:59:52 [Zakim]: +Makoto; got it
21:00:04 [nabe]: zakim ,unmute me
21:01:06 [wendy]: zakim, mute Makoto
21:01:06 [Zakim]: Makoto should now be muted
21:01:20 [wendy]: zakim, who's on the phone?
21:01:20 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Mike_Barta, Bengt_Farre (muted), Wendy, Alex_Li (muted), Michael_Cooper (muted), Tom (muted), Takayuk_Watanabei, David_MacDonald, Becky_Gibson, Andi,
21:01:23 [Zakim]: ... Roberto_Ellero (muted), John_Slatin, Ben_and_Gregg, Roberto_Scano (muted), JasonWhite, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Makoto (muted), Martin
21:02:33 [wendy]: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1140
21:02:58 [wendy]: (1) We find some part of WCAG 2.0 is difficult to understand because they are
21:03:00 [wendy]: too abstract and too precise. Reader of WCAG 2.0 may need a manual or handbook.
21:03:01 [wendy]: WCAG had better have more examples that show an example to at least one SC.
21:04:27 [wendy]: gv checklist should help clarify
21:05:12 [wendy]: gv e.g., checklist say "use alt-text with img" and "provide captions with movies" the specificity and concreteness you will find in the checklist
21:05:18 [wendy]: gv would that help?
21:05:24 [wendy]: gv or would it still exist?
21:05:44 [wendy]: tw understand the strategy, but guidelines are difficult to read.
21:06:39 [wendy]: gv we agree with the comment and are attempting to write them in as simple language as we can
21:07:11 [wendy]: gv we will see what we can do to provide more examples
21:07:22 [wendy]: ack john
21:07:36 [Zakim]: +??P14
21:07:52 [wendy]: js agree that the guidelines are still more difficult to understand than they should be, intrigued about the "handbook" comment
21:08:06 [wendy]: js don't think we should dismiss that. part of the function that the techniques documents will serve.
21:08:09 [wendy]: zakim, mute ??P14
21:08:09 [Zakim]: ??P14 should now be muted
21:08:14 [bcaldwell]: q+
21:08:36 [wendy]: js no matter how carefully we write the guidelines they will not be self-explanatory. this is why we rely on EOWG and will have books and manuals to explain.
21:09:01 [wendy]: js can't make everything self-explanatory. additonal explantory material will be required.
21:09:24 [wendy]: gv we also agree that [some] reader[s] of WCAG 2.0 will need a manual or handbook
21:10:01 [wendy]: ack bcaldwell
21:10:19 [wendy]: bc i related this issue to the "O'reilly version of wcag 2.0" matt already has action item to propose.
21:10:43 [wendy]: md working with the publisher or using that word to say "good books"
21:10:44 [nabe]: that's a good idea.
21:10:47 [wendy]: gv it is used generically
21:11:17 [wendy]: next comment: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1141
21:11:37 [wendy]: hello seki-san - did you just join the call?
21:12:01 [T_SEKI]: yes I am sit in
21:12:03 [wendy]: zakim, who's on the phone?
21:12:03 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Mike_Barta, Bengt_Farre (muted), Wendy, Alex_Li (muted), Michael_Cooper (muted), Tom (muted), Takayuk_Watanabei, David_MacDonald (muted), Becky_Gibson, Andi,
21:12:06 [Zakim]: ... Roberto_Ellero (muted), John_Slatin, Ben_and_Gregg, Roberto_Scano (muted), JasonWhite, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Makoto (muted), Martin, ??P14 (muted)
21:12:13 [wendy]: ok. i think you are P14.
21:12:21 [wendy]: zakim, ??P14 is T_Seki
21:12:21 [Zakim]: +T_Seki; got it
21:12:33 [rscano]: ISO/CD 23973 referred has a long way before become standard....
21:12:51 [wendy]: welcome to the call. if you would like to speak, please type "q+" in IRC and you will be added to the speaker queue.
21:13:21 [wendy]: gv our charter says we can only work on accessibility issues. in the comments it say, "they are related to each other."
21:13:27 [T_SEKI]: Thank you, wendy
21:13:54 [wendy]: gv where they interact (usability and accessibility), it does trigger on accessibility, but if it is a problem for everyone then it is outside of our charter.
21:14:17 [wendy]: gv it would be good if there were usability guidelines, but there are many books that talk about usability.
21:15:03 [wendy]: gv the best that we have is a standard for documenting usability testing - the CIF.
21:15:11 [wendy]: gv however, no standard for usability.
21:15:25 [nabe]: q+
21:15:33 [wendy]: ack Takayuk
21:15:47 [wendy]: zakim, Takayuk_Watanabei is Takayuki_Watanabe
21:15:47 [Zakim]: +Takayuki_Watanabe; got it
21:16:13 [wendy]: tw someone did a user test of WCAG 1.0 and found that most of the problems are not accessibility issues but usability issues.
21:17:09 [wendy]: tw understand the opinion, but we should treat usability issues as much as we can. otherwise, it is difficult to use a web site.
21:17:52 [wendy]: gv it is true that often the people with disabilities have the same problems as everyone else, however, we do not have authority to work on that unless it is a much great problem for someone with a disability.
21:18:33 [wendy]: q+ to say, "perhaps we can talk about a specific example? perhaps we cover more than we think? or is there a usability problem we are not aware of?"
21:20:15 [wendy]: gv ideas for how to address?
21:20:19 [wendy]: ack wendy
21:20:19 [Zakim]: wendy, you wanted to say, "perhaps we can talk about a specific example? perhaps we cover more than we think? or is there a usability problem we are not aware of?"
21:21:58 [wendy]: action: takayuki provide example of usability issue don't feel is covered. [we'll discuss at f2f]
21:22:04 [wendy]: ack loretta
21:22:14 [wendy]: lgr what would you like to see covered?
21:22:25 [wendy]: gv yes, would be good to see what have in mind.
21:22:34 [wendy]: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1142
21:22:48 [wendy]: gv reads issue
21:23:11 [wendy]: gv you said it should be more explicit. we could do that in the examples.
21:23:23 [wendy]: gv could add "an older person who is experiencing..."
21:23:48 [wendy]: gv our guidelines are called, "accessibility guidelines" but don't mention who they are accessible to. so, mention both disabilities as well as older.
21:23:53 [rscano]: "older person" isn't a disability
21:23:57 [wendy]: gv some older people do not have disabilities.
21:24:18 [wendy]: gv could say "people who are older and often develop single and often mixed disabilties" to clarify that is one of our target audiences.
21:24:30 [nabe]: q+
21:24:33 [wendy]: gv that is a good comment. we need to clarify our language to reflect that.
21:24:36 [wendy]: ack takayuki
21:25:01 [wendy]: tw if a person who is old and cognitive function is deteriorated, is he disabled?
21:25:11 [wendy]: gv he or she is experiencing a disability.
21:25:27 [wendy]: ack andi
21:25:42 [wendy]: asw we would consider them to have a disability but they may not consider themselves to have a disability.
21:25:57 [wendy]: asw the paragraph about the design principles could use work. we could include issues withg aging. as well as in user needs.
21:26:24 [sh1mmer]: Well done Andi!
21:26:44 [rscano]: yep!
21:26:53 [wendy]: action: asw incorporate aging into paragraph about the design principles as well as user needs.
21:26:53 [nabe]: thank you!
21:27:14 [wendy]: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1143
21:27:28 [wendy]: gv we talked about that earlier in this call. the techniques doc says "avoid layout tables"
21:27:43 [wendy]: gv the conclusion we came to today is:
21:27:58 [wendy]: gv 1.3 does not preclude using tables for layout
21:28:33 [wendy]: gv 4.1 says "use according to spec" and we don't decide the specification -it is up to the HTML WG
21:29:08 [wendy]: gv open question: perhaps at least at level 3 it would be good to have suggestion to avoid tables for layout. it is not there currently.
21:29:10 [David_MacDonald]: I think we've talked about that on techniques. I think the techniques taskforce is still up i the air about that. I don't think we are leaning in the direction "avoid layout tables"
21:29:35 [wendy]: gv in techniques: describe problems.
21:29:47 [wendy]: gv in 4.1 could describe problem in an example
21:30:25 [wendy]: gv we are reluctant to state "avoid tables for layout" because there is still issues with css development (tools and widely used practices)
21:30:30 [wendy]: tw that's ok
21:30:37 [wendy]: gv we are at the end of the call
21:31:04 [wendy]: gv will set aside time at f2f to further discuss these questions
21:31:56 [wendy]: q+ to say "need to follow-up at better time of day for japan?"
21:32:12 [sh1mmer]: q+
21:32:16 [sh1mmer]: ack tom
21:33:50 [Zakim]: -Loretta_Guarino_Reid
21:34:51 [Zakim]: -JasonWhite
21:35:24 [Zakim]: -Michael_Cooper
21:36:02 [Zakim]: -Roberto_Scano
21:36:11 [Zakim]: -Roberto_Ellero
21:36:15 [sh1mmer]: and I thought 9pm was a PITA
21:36:25 [rscano]: by to all
21:36:28 [sh1mmer]: Well done nabe :)
21:36:59 [nabe]: thank you Tom,
21:37:15 [Zakim]: -Mike_Barta
21:37:16 [Zakim]: -Alex_Li
21:37:17 [Zakim]: -Andi
21:37:18 [Zakim]: -Becky_Gibson
21:37:20 [Zakim]: -Bengt_Farre
21:37:20 [Zakim]: -Ben_and_Gregg
21:37:21 [Zakim]: -Wendy
21:37:22 [Zakim]: -Tom
21:37:24 [Zakim]: -John_Slatin
21:37:27 [Zakim]: -Martin
21:37:28 [Zakim]: -David_MacDonald
21:37:35 [wendy]: RRSAgent, make log world
21:37:43 [Zakim]: -T_Seki
21:37:53 [T_SEKI]: Hi
21:38:10 [nabe]: Tnak you Gregg, thank you Wendy.
21:38:41 [nabe]: nabe has left #wai-wcag
21:38:51 [wendy]: You are welcome. Thank you for commenting and attending. Thanks also to Martin, Makoto, and Seki-san
21:38:56 [Zakim]: -Makoto
21:39:32 [T_SEKI]: Thank you Gregg ,thank you wendy, see again Brussels
21:39:53 [wendy]: See you in Brussels.
21:40:54 [T_SEKI]: Yes I going to EU work Shop
21:42:12 [wendy]: Good. It should be interesting.
21:42:47 [T_SEKI]: I sit in 3 days
21:43:56 [Zakim]: disconnecting the lone participant, Takayuki_Watanabe, in WAI_WCAG()4:00PM
21:44:00 [Zakim]: WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has ended
21:44:01 [Zakim]: Attendees were Wendy, Alex_Li, Bengt_Farre, Michael_Cooper, Tom, Mike_Barta, Becky_Gibson, David_MacDonald, Andi, Roberto_Ellero, John_Slatin, Ben_and_Gregg, Roberto_Scano,
21:44:03 [Zakim]: ... JasonWhite, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Martin, Makoto, T_Seki, Takayuki_Watanabe
21:44:14 [wendy]: zakim, bye
21:44:14 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #wai-wcag
21:44:19 [wendy]: RRSAgent, bye
21:44:19 [RRSAgent]: I see 10 open action items:
21:44:19 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: david test 307 with screen magnifiers and screen readers, john test with screen readers [1]
21:44:19 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/10/07-wai-wcag-irc#T20-23-51
21:44:19 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: nobody do some research on xx-small....xx-* support on mobile phones [2]
21:44:19 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/10/07-wai-wcag-irc#T20-24-51
21:44:19 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: wendy approach shawn about overview/appendix/intro and coordinating issues related to issues 368 and 501 [3]
21:44:19 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/10/07-wai-wcag-irc#T20-28-42
21:44:19 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: john address issue 381 [4]
21:44:19 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/10/07-wai-wcag-irc#T20-29-12
21:44:19 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: gregg look at examples for 1.4/1.5 [5]
21:44:19 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/10/07-wai-wcag-irc#T20-30-47
21:44:19 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: john address 702 (related to 381) [6]
21:44:19 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/10/07-wai-wcag-irc#T20-32-31
21:44:19 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: becky proposal to close issue 1021 [7]
21:44:19 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/10/07-wai-wcag-irc#T20-32-55
21:44:19 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: wendy and becky talk at the f2f about editing xml source [8]
21:44:19 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/10/07-wai-wcag-irc#T20-35-24
21:44:19 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: takayuki provide example of usability issue don't feel is covered. [we'll discuss at f2f] [9]
21:44:19 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/10/07-wai-wcag-irc#T21-21-58
21:44:19 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: asw incorporate aging into paragraph about the design principles as well as user needs. [10]
21:44:19 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/10/07-wai-wcag-irc#T21-26-53
21:44:34 [T_SEKI]: bye