IRC log of wai-wcag on 2004-09-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:55:47 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag

13:55:53 [Michael]

rrsagent, make logs world

13:59:38 [Becky]

Becky has joined #wai-wcag

14:03:38 [Becky]

do we need to tell zakim what meeting this is?

14:03:49 [Michael]

it's set

14:04:15 [Michael]

zakim, this is wai_wcag

14:04:15 [Zakim]

ok, Michael; that matches WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM

14:04:20 [Michael]

sorry, I was wrong

14:04:49 [Michael]

zakim, who's on the phone?

14:04:49 [Zakim]

On the phone I see +1.425.885.aaaa, Alex_Li, ??P16, Becky_Gibson

14:04:55 [Zakim]

-Becky_Gibson

14:05:07 [Zakim]

+[ATTcaller]

14:05:27 [Zakim]

+Becky_Gibson

14:05:54 [Zakim]

+Michael_Cooper

14:06:30 [Michael]

zakim, +1.425 is Jenae_Andershonis

14:06:30 [Zakim]

+Jenae_Andershonis; got it

14:07:17 [Michael]

zakim, [ATT is Tim_Boland

14:07:17 [Zakim]

+Tim_Boland; got it

14:07:24 [Michael]

zakim, ??P16 is Lisa_Seeman

14:07:24 [Zakim]

+Lisa_Seeman; got it

14:09:39 [Michael]

Topic: Acquiring Test Materials

14:09:44 [Michael]

scribe: Michael

14:10:01 [Michael]

will take time to do

14:10:09 [Michael]

need documentation from Chris on how it all works

14:10:22 [Michael]

big decision is, do we want to take Chris's test case?

14:10:34 [Michael]

Will still have process of adding / removing

14:10:52 [Michael]

Chris has to ok if we take his

14:11:00 [Michael]

We have to redo work if we don't

14:12:43 [Michael]

ls concern that tests just say "take a look at this"

14:13:00 [Michael]

want "artificial intelligence" to help with that

14:13:19 [Michael]

ja this will be an issue that will just be part of it

14:13:49 [Michael]

tb would tests be supported by multiple implementations on multiple platforms?

14:13:58 [Michael]

ja that's where the browser matrix comes in

14:14:20 [Michael]

will need to update that to the test suite

14:14:48 [Michael]

ja if we take tests, W3C will own tests

14:15:00 [Michael]

tb so Chris can't maintain privately any more

14:15:43 [Michael]

ja though there will be one person managing the test suites anyway

14:15:55 [Michael]

ls are they normative?

14:15:56 [Michael]

ja no

14:16:44 [Michael]

W3C process will help in the discussion

14:17:00 [Michael]

but trying to push them through to Recommendation would be way too difficult

14:17:12 [Michael]

lots of work to do no matter what direction we go

14:17:30 [Michael]

Will need to be sure to follow QA process

14:17:36 [Michael]

can call on members of the QAWG to help

14:19:24 [Michael]

mc propose we adopt Chris's tests, need to propose to WCAG WG

14:19:30 [Michael]

tb need to check in with Chris

14:20:07 [Michael]

:)

14:20:51 [Michael]

ls Chris need to be sure he understands what's gonna happen with his stuff, i.e., he should be really clear on the transfer process

14:21:41 [Michael]

ls be clear that if we adopt Chris's tests it's just as a basis, to which we can make any necessary modifications

14:22:08 [Michael]

e.g., need to change from "programmatical assertions" to "have you tested this?"

14:22:40 [Michael]

ja need to create a document on how we'll do the transfer, and a document on changes we'd make

14:23:46 [Michael]

mc we can decide on the changes later, once we own it

14:24:12 [Michael]

action: Jenae work up transfer document, work with QA editor

14:24:43 [Michael]

action: Michael alert Chris, will wait on Jenae's document to proceed

14:28:13 [Zakim]

-Jenae_Andershonis

14:28:21 [Zakim]

-Tim_Boland

14:29:16 [Michael]

Topic: RDF techniques

14:29:36 [Michael]

ls has gotten some feedback on lists etc.

14:30:06 [Michael]

hasn't worried about basic stuff like typos yet

14:31:12 [Michael]

ls what info needed so people can look at the techniques and understand them?

14:31:39 [Michael]

can send pieces of info around until people understand what's up

14:32:29 [Michael]

would like to know where people are getting lost

14:32:44 [Michael]

bg it's not something people have examples of

14:33:31 [Michael]

al formatting makes it a bit difficult too

14:35:07 [Michael]

adopting Andi's suggestions for relationship of documents will also make it easier to understand RDF techniques

14:36:49 [Michael]

mc RDF techniques probably won't be included in the November public drafts

14:37:01 [Michael]

ls what needs to be done so they could be ready for that?

14:41:44 [Michael]

action: Michael, Wendy, Lisa coordinate on time and way to present RDF techniques to WG

14:50:45 [Zakim]

+??P35

14:51:01 [Michael]

Topic: Hiding Labels

14:51:28 [Michael]

zakim, ??P35 is David_MacDonald

14:51:28 [Zakim]

+David_MacDonald; got it

14:52:01 [Michael]

bg four methods to hide lables

14:52:04 [Michael]

image w/ alt

14:52:06 [Michael]

title on control

14:52:12 [Michael]

display:none on label

14:52:16 [Michael]

position label off screen

14:52:29 [Michael]

vote on list was in favor of positioning off screen

14:53:05 [Michael]

concern that if CSS disabled, undesired things displayed, but in reality bigger things messed up too

14:54:03 [Michael]

title works, but not supported by eval tools

14:54:31 [Michael]

display:none works with screen readers

14:55:04 [Michael]

concern that if screen readers changing their handling of display:none

14:55:11 [Michael]

tested that with labels they still get presented

14:55:47 [Michael]

mc that's in line with my testing of labels, that they have a programmatic association with the control

14:56:03 [Michael]

ls a lot of people consider screen readers displaying display:none to be a bug

14:57:58 [Michael]

bg it makes sense to include all four techniques as optional techniques

14:58:07 [Michael]

mc can log UA issues with each as needed

14:58:20 [Zakim]

-Alex_Li

14:59:52 [Michael]

moving things off to the left or top better than off to the right, because of horizontal scrolling

15:02:13 [Michael]

action: Becky write up techniques for the four label things for Wendy and Michael to include in docs

15:04:09 [Zakim]

+ +1.978.399.aabb

15:04:30 [Michael]

zakim, +1.978 is Becky_Gibson2

15:04:30 [Zakim]

+Becky_Gibson2; got it

15:05:15 [Michael]

Topic: Image Replacement

15:05:39 [Michael]

mc disparages the idea of using such an elaborate workaround for a design choice

15:06:01 [Michael]

dmd some people take the design very seriously, it's better to give them an accessible way to express it

15:06:09 [Michael]

bg that's why it's proposed

15:07:39 [Michael]

helps in certain conditions

15:07:45 [Michael]

dmd are they marginal conditions?

15:08:58 [Michael]

ls metadata / rdf could relate the image to a text equivalent, even if the image is in CSS

15:09:11 [Michael]

bg rdf isn't supported yet

15:09:54 [Michael]

mc we can still have both ways in the arsenal, authors can choose which to use

15:10:04 [Michael]

dmd we could make recommendations

15:10:24 [Michael]

bg high contrast users turn of css but not images; in this case image disappears when CSS turned off

15:13:11 [Michael]

action: Wendy add image replacement to CSS techniques based on Becky's post

15:14:08 [Michael]

action: Lisa create RDF techniques for associating text alternatives with images, and for having alternate versions of images (e.g., a larger, higher contrast one)

15:19:05 [Zakim]

-Michael_Cooper

15:19:06 [Zakim]

-Becky_Gibson2

15:19:07 [Zakim]

-Lisa_Seeman

15:19:08 [Zakim]

-David_MacDonald

15:22:07 [Zakim]

-Becky_Gibson

15:22:08 [Zakim]

WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended

15:22:09 [Zakim]

Attendees were +1.425.885.aaaa, Alex_Li, Becky_Gibson, [ATTcaller], Michael_Cooper, Jenae_Andershonis, Tim_Boland, Lisa_Seeman, David_MacDonald, +1.978.399.aabb, Becky_Gibson2

16:58:30 [Michael]

zakim, bye

16:58:30 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #wai-wcag

16:58:34 [Michael]

rrsagent, bye

16:58:34 [RRSAgent]

I see 6 open action items:

16:58:34 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Jenae work up transfer document, work with QA editor [1]

16:58:34 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/22-wai-wcag-irc#T14-24-12

16:58:34 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Michael alert Chris, will wait on Jenae's document to proceed [2]

16:58:34 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/22-wai-wcag-irc#T14-24-43

16:58:34 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Michael, Wendy, Lisa coordinate on time and way to present RDF techniques to WG [3]

16:58:34 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/22-wai-wcag-irc#T14-41-44

16:58:34 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Becky write up techniques for the four label things for Wendy and Michael to include in docs [4]

16:58:34 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/22-wai-wcag-irc#T15-02-13

16:58:34 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Wendy add image replacement to CSS techniques based on Becky's post [5]

16:58:34 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/22-wai-wcag-irc#T15-13-11

16:58:34 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Lisa create RDF techniques for associating text alternatives with images, and for having alternate versions of images (e.g., a larger, higher contrast one) [6]

16:58:34 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/22-wai-wcag-irc#T15-14-08