IRC log of wai-wcag on 2004-09-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:00:59 [RRSAgent]
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14:01:06 [Michael]
rrsagent, make logs world
14:01:40 [Zakim]
+Michael_Cooper
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14:02:09 [Michael]
zakim, I am Michael_Cooper
14:02:09 [Zakim]
ok, Michael, I now associate you with Michael_Cooper
14:02:24 [Zakim]
+??P10
14:02:33 [Zakim]
+Becky_Gibson
14:02:36 [bcaldwell]
zakim, ??P10 is Ben
14:02:36 [Zakim]
+Ben; got it
14:02:46 [Zakim]
+Wendy
14:03:08 [wendy]
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14:03:17 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
14:03:18 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Chris_Ridpath, Michael_Cooper, Ben, Becky_Gibson, Wendy
14:03:27 [bcaldwell]
zakim, I am Ben
14:03:28 [Zakim]
ok, bcaldwell, I now associate you with Ben
14:03:54 [Becky]
zakim, I am Becky_Gibson
14:03:54 [Zakim]
ok, Becky, I now associate you with Becky_Gibson
14:05:50 [Zakim]
+Tim_Boland
14:06:52 [wendy]
Topic: new drafts this Friday
14:07:49 [wendy]
changes we've agreed to since 30 July drafts should be incorporated. internal drafts this friday, in prep for next internal draft on 8 october, in prep for next public draft on 3 november
14:07:58 [wendy]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2004/07/WD-plan.html
14:12:52 [wendy]
Topic: Gateway 1.3 proposal
14:16:07 [wendy]
http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-WCAG20-GATEWAY-20040730/criterion1.1.1.html
14:19:17 [wendy]
"Users can take advantage of functionality built into user agents (including assistive technology) to gain an overview of the document's organization and to navigate easily from section to section." true for all technologies? is this an assumption based on HTML worldview?
14:20:23 [wendy]
in the case of xml with css, yes there is structure, but does the user agent know about it?
14:20:47 [Zakim]
+Don_Evans
14:21:30 [donaldfevans]
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14:23:51 [wendy]
have to get semantics from schema. until can do that, user agent won't be able to determine relationships.
14:24:02 [wendy]
back at the baseline
14:24:22 [wendy]
brings us back to the baseline and support in user agents
14:25:07 [wendy]
what about svg?
14:27:22 [wendy]
an overview won't be necessary for all types of web content.
14:28:26 [wendy]
structure that can be navigated is the key here.
14:28:33 [wendy]
perhaps if change the and to an or in, "Users can take advantage of functionality built into user agents (including assistive technology) to gain an overview of the document's organization and to navigate easily from section to section."
14:29:29 [wendy]
forms - included in all techs? yes, reason for xforms so can embed anywhere.
14:29:34 [wendy]
tables?
14:30:45 [wendy]
data vs layout is an html-speicifc thing. so in gateway only discuss data.
14:32:46 [wendy]
put these into friday's draft?
14:33:55 [wendy]
15.1 a copy error?
14:34:09 [wendy]
action: wendy convert to xml and publish with friday's internal draft
14:34:50 [wendy]
Topic: CSS Tech for image-text
14:34:51 [wendy]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0469.html
14:35:58 [wendy]
if in a browser where can change font size (in 60pt font there is overlap). operates in OS-level high contrast mode, images turned off, css turned off...
14:36:16 [wendy]
however, do we want to include a technique that says how to use image text.
14:36:31 [wendy]
instead of saying, don't use text in images, say use better technologies as they become available.
14:36:54 [donaldfevans]
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14:37:18 [wendy]
why don't you use alt text? IE (if you turn off images) it keeps the size of teh image and writes alt-text in default size, they won't see it.
14:37:19 [donaldfevans]
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14:38:16 [wendy]
which guideline does this satisfy?
14:38:30 [wendy]
or is it a work-around for another guideline?
14:39:53 [wendy]
related to:
14:39:59 [wendy]
Guideline 1.1 Provide text alternatives for all non-text content.
14:40:10 [wendy]
# Guideline 1.3 Ensure that information, functionality, and structure are separable from presentation.
14:40:12 [wendy]
# Guideline 1.4 In visual presentations, make it easy to distinguish foreground words and images from the background.
14:40:19 [wendy]
go into css or html techniques?
14:40:40 [wendy]
it's a workaround for an html issue. it's using css for the image.
14:42:05 [wendy]
seems to be an optional technique
14:44:25 [wendy]
want to rework our image of "old fuddy duddies" and give people information about how to develop techniques (things to consider)
14:44:32 [wendy]
help apply pressure on asst tech.
14:45:24 [wendy]
people complain about not making jazzy site accessible. this isn't completely perfect, because if someone is using 60pt font, but it will hit a wide audience.
14:45:56 [wendy]
include it to encourage developers to make it work in 60 pt font
14:46:19 [wendy]
put in css techs w/ednote saying "blurs boundaries between html and css techs"
14:46:28 [wendy]
if not using css, don't want to encounter this
14:50:36 [wendy]
action: wendy add to css techniques as new 6.2, add issue to bugzilla about 60 pt font
14:50:58 [wendy]
action 2= wendy add to css techniques as new 6.2, add issue to bugzilla about 60 pt font, add ednote about issue
14:52:26 [wendy]
next weeK: talk about blink
14:53:03 [wendy]
Topic: html proposals from last week
14:54:35 [wendy]
most discussion happened about h1. on call, said didn't want to do that. on list, other opinions.
14:54:58 [wendy]
propose: don't create technique yet, but ednote, "discussion about restricting use of heading elements"
14:56:19 [wendy]
action: michael update issue 925 with pointer to thread and summary of isues
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14:56:48 [wendy]
issue 899 - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0433.html
14:56:49 [donaldfevans]
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14:57:18 [wendy]
in WCAG 1.0
14:57:37 [wendy]
anything appeared in wcag 1.0, need to say something in 2.0, even if to say "don't require this"
14:57:56 [wendy]
didn't we purposely pull this one?
14:58:51 [wendy]
yes, although probably before concept of "deprecated technique"
14:58:58 [wendy]
one response arguing against deprecating
15:00:34 [wendy]
the response said HPR doesn't handle well?
15:00:41 [wendy]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0448.html
15:00:59 [wendy]
action: becky investigate HPR support
15:01:29 [wendy]
action: michael add ednote, update issue, point to issue from ednote
15:01:53 [wendy]
issue 900: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0434.html
15:02:44 [wendy]
related to baseline discussion
15:04:23 [wendy]
mainly getting at css positioning - weird source code order where wouldn't make sense w/out css
15:06:02 [wendy]
if using css+javascript won't work. this is really a test for good linearization. perhaps reformulate that way.
15:07:05 [wendy]
in wcag 1.0 worded ...., in 2.0 as we move towards as acceptance of scripting it....
15:07:20 [wendy]
901 and 914 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0435.html
15:07:47 [wendy]
related to plug-in discussion from wcag wg
15:08:10 [wendy]
in html techs, won't say much beyond "plug-ins need to be accessible" and then point to java api doc, etc.
15:08:26 [wendy]
have a tech for object/embed/applet that is comparable to d-link from 1.0?
15:09:17 [wendy]
came up in context of conversation between john and joe. do any of the techniques actually work? i.e., rendering of content in an object tag.
15:09:39 [wendy]
thus, only reliable method to give authors is to provide a link to it outside of the object tag, similar to d-link.
15:09:53 [wendy]
need a tech under programmatic object for this?
15:10:11 [wendy]
a separate discussion from bugzilla issue?
15:10:19 [wendy]
this issue is about applets being directly accesible.
15:10:26 [wendy]
which comes back to baseline discussion.
15:13:39 [wendy]
is there a css technique that could display the alt content?
15:13:54 [wendy]
would an asst tech pick it up?
15:14:49 [wendy]
cuase the alt attribute or embedded content to appear on screen and test with asst. techs.
15:15:02 [wendy]
try with applet, embed, and object
15:15:29 [wendy]
applet and embed have alt attribute, embed and object have nested content. embed has noembed (like noscript)
15:16:20 [Zakim]
-Tim_Boland
15:17:07 [wendy]
action becky: play with css to cause the alt attribute or embedded content to appear on screen and test with asst. techs for applet, embed, and object
15:17:22 [wendy]
action michael: add placeholder for a tech to display alt content of applet, embed, and object
15:18:18 [wendy]
guidelines say that prog objects must follow uaag
15:19:12 [wendy]
link to other techniques documents, e.g., link to macromedia flash techniques
15:19:40 [wendy]
embedded content meet wcag. if applet follow java accessibility guidelines (for meeting wcag). the plug-in viewer would need to meet uaag.
15:20:27 [wendy]
propose: create technique, 2nd ednote is that plug-in must meet uaag
15:20:46 [wendy]
issue 902
15:20:48 [wendy]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0436.html
15:21:38 [wendy]
not inherited from wcag 1.0. whole pages where the content *is* the applet. related to baseline discussion.
15:25:14 [wendy]
technique with link to baseline discussion/issue
15:25:26 [wendy]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0437.html
15:26:08 [wendy]
won't be just a cut/paste from wcag 1.0 because of changes in flicker in guidelines.
15:26:22 [wendy]
may be introducing flicker issues, "go here for more info" that's cool.
15:26:24 [wendy]
same with color.
15:26:54 [wendy]
from w/in "direct accessiblity" include info for color and flicker since part of direct accessibility.
15:27:43 [wendy]
action michael: add 903, 917 (flicker) 904, 916 (color) to diret accessibility tech
15:30:08 [wendy]
presentation elements: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0440.html
15:31:38 [wendy]
B and I are not deprecated, basefont and font are deprecated
15:32:10 [wendy]
if not using css, why not use b and i for the purpose of formatting
15:35:30 [wendy]
from matt's blog:
15:35:32 [wendy]
http://www.bestkungfu.com/archive/date/2004/05/strongly-emphasizing-semantics/
15:35:44 [wendy]
The <b> and <i> elements are valid HTML. They?re fine for transitional HTML applications, when they are not used interchangeably with <strong> and <em>. But they are not in the toolkits of semantic coders, and they?re misused 98% of the time. (That?s an underestimation.) If you can tell what 2% is right, go ahead and use them. If you can?t, here?s help.
15:35:57 [wendy]
The Chicago Manual of Style has one approved non-emphasis-related use of bold (abbreviated ?dynamics in music"), and eight for italics. So these are the cases where using <i> is not the end of the world, with those covered by other HTML elements removed. (Note that four of them are practical subsets of the first, which is covered by the lang attribute.)
15:35:58 [wendy]
* foreign words and phrases
15:36:00 [wendy]
* enzyme names
15:36:01 [wendy]
* gene names
15:36:03 [wendy]
* genus and species
15:36:04 [wendy]
* unabbreviated dynamics in music
15:36:06 [wendy]
* rhyme schemes
15:36:07 [wendy]
Everything else should use <strong> and <em>. (As the WCAG techniques tell us.) Authoring tools that don?t know better should assume the semantic elements were what was intended, since almost all of the time they will be correct.
15:36:24 [wendy]
reference Chicago Manual of Style (ala Matt)
15:39:11 [ChrisR]
test process: http://tile-cridpath.atrc.utoronto.ca/acheck/ctprocess.html
15:40:35 [Zakim]
-Chris_Ridpath
15:40:40 [Zakim]
-Don_Evans
15:41:11 [wendy]
add list to technique as proposed, make clear it is not a requirement. add additional elements from html spec. add pointer to chicago manual of style.
15:41:23 [wendy]
912 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0441.html
15:42:26 [wendy]
only for left to right language.
15:42:51 [wendy]
do we speak about forms in tables? a diff technique?
15:43:22 [wendy]
included in feedback from ibm. it is already a bugzilla issue.
15:44:16 [wendy]
there are cases where sometimes visually it is very obvious what goes into the field.
15:45:20 [wendy]
prompt says "month day year" and 3 elements, obvious visually. not obvious using screen reader.
15:45:40 [wendy]
needed labels for field but didn't want to use visual lable.
15:45:45 [wendy]
jim uses title.
15:45:51 [wendy]
in css could use display:hidden
15:46:36 [wendy]
action: propose techniques, add issue for invisble labels for forms
15:46:50 [wendy]
action 9 = becky propose techniques, add issue for invisble labels for forms
15:47:13 [wendy]
913 accepted
15:47:19 [wendy]
915 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0443.html
15:47:41 [wendy]
wrt 914 - is title an alternative way to provide text that we can experiment with
15:47:50 [wendy]
915 - as proposed, don't create fornow
15:48:04 [wendy]
leave it open, title is not reliable.
15:48:12 [wendy]
918 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0444.html
15:49:05 [wendy]
yes, placeholder. related to baseline as well as the function of the script. some require discussion, some dont.
15:49:31 [wendy]
want to avoid noscript tags taht say, "script decorative. text not needed"
15:49:48 [wendy]
922 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0445.html
15:50:24 [wendy]
isn't it a css thing?
15:52:03 [wendy]
color is attribute of font and basefont, deprecated. bgcolor deprecated.
15:53:19 [wendy]
since a lot of people are using these attributes, create a technique that points to gateway and css for color.
15:53:38 [wendy]
925 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0446.html
15:53:47 [wendy]
ednote, pointer to issue, leave issue open
15:54:58 [Zakim]
-Michael_Cooper
15:54:59 [Zakim]
-Ben
15:55:00 [Zakim]
-Becky_Gibson
15:55:01 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended
15:55:02 [Zakim]
Attendees were Chris_Ridpath, Michael_Cooper, Becky_Gibson, Ben, Wendy, Tim_Boland, Don_Evans
15:56:59 [wendy]
zakim, bye
15:56:59 [Zakim]
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15:57:03 [wendy]
RRSAgent, make log world
16:06:01 [wendy]
RRSAgent, make log world
16:07:17 [wendy]
RRSAgent, bye
16:07:17 [RRSAgent]
I see 9 open action items:
16:07:17 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: wendy convert to xml and publish with friday's internal draft [1]
16:07:17 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/01-wai-wcag-irc#T14-34-09
16:07:17 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: wendy add to css techniques as new 6.2, add issue to bugzilla about 60 pt font, add ednote about issue [2]
16:07:17 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/01-wai-wcag-irc#T14-50-36
16:07:17 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: michael update issue 925 with pointer to thread and summary of isues [3]
16:07:17 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/01-wai-wcag-irc#T14-56-19
16:07:17 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: becky investigate HPR support [4]
16:07:17 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/01-wai-wcag-irc#T15-00-59
16:07:17 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: michael add ednote, update issue, point to issue from ednote [5]
16:07:17 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/01-wai-wcag-irc#T15-01-29
16:07:17 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: becky to play with css to cause the alt attribute or embedded content to appear on screen and test with asst. techs for applet, embed, and object [6]
16:07:17 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/01-wai-wcag-irc#T15-17-07
16:07:17 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: michael to add placeholder for a tech to display alt content of applet, embed, and object [7]
16:07:17 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/01-wai-wcag-irc#T15-17-22
16:07:17 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: michael to add 903, 917 (flicker) 904, 916 (color) to diret accessibility tech [8]
16:07:17 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/01-wai-wcag-irc#T15-27-43
16:07:17 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: becky propose techniques, add issue for invisble labels for forms [9]
16:07:17 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/01-wai-wcag-irc#T15-46-36