IRC log of wai-wcag on 2004-09-01
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 14:00:59 [RRSAgent]
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- 14:01:06 [Michael]
- rrsagent, make logs world
- 14:01:40 [Zakim]
- +Michael_Cooper
- 14:01:48 [bcaldwell]
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- 14:02:09 [Michael]
- zakim, I am Michael_Cooper
- 14:02:09 [Zakim]
- ok, Michael, I now associate you with Michael_Cooper
- 14:02:24 [Zakim]
- +??P10
- 14:02:33 [Zakim]
- +Becky_Gibson
- 14:02:36 [bcaldwell]
- zakim, ??P10 is Ben
- 14:02:36 [Zakim]
- +Ben; got it
- 14:02:46 [Zakim]
- +Wendy
- 14:03:08 [wendy]
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- 14:03:17 [wendy]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 14:03:18 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Chris_Ridpath, Michael_Cooper, Ben, Becky_Gibson, Wendy
- 14:03:27 [bcaldwell]
- zakim, I am Ben
- 14:03:28 [Zakim]
- ok, bcaldwell, I now associate you with Ben
- 14:03:54 [Becky]
- zakim, I am Becky_Gibson
- 14:03:54 [Zakim]
- ok, Becky, I now associate you with Becky_Gibson
- 14:05:50 [Zakim]
- +Tim_Boland
- 14:06:52 [wendy]
- Topic: new drafts this Friday
- 14:07:49 [wendy]
- changes we've agreed to since 30 July drafts should be incorporated. internal drafts this friday, in prep for next internal draft on 8 october, in prep for next public draft on 3 november
- 14:07:58 [wendy]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2004/07/WD-plan.html
- 14:12:52 [wendy]
- Topic: Gateway 1.3 proposal
- 14:16:07 [wendy]
- http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-WCAG20-GATEWAY-20040730/criterion1.1.1.html
- 14:19:17 [wendy]
- "Users can take advantage of functionality built into user agents (including assistive technology) to gain an overview of the document's organization and to navigate easily from section to section." true for all technologies? is this an assumption based on HTML worldview?
- 14:20:23 [wendy]
- in the case of xml with css, yes there is structure, but does the user agent know about it?
- 14:20:47 [Zakim]
- +Don_Evans
- 14:21:30 [donaldfevans]
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- 14:23:51 [wendy]
- have to get semantics from schema. until can do that, user agent won't be able to determine relationships.
- 14:24:02 [wendy]
- back at the baseline
- 14:24:22 [wendy]
- brings us back to the baseline and support in user agents
- 14:25:07 [wendy]
- what about svg?
- 14:27:22 [wendy]
- an overview won't be necessary for all types of web content.
- 14:28:26 [wendy]
- structure that can be navigated is the key here.
- 14:28:33 [wendy]
- perhaps if change the and to an or in, "Users can take advantage of functionality built into user agents (including assistive technology) to gain an overview of the document's organization and to navigate easily from section to section."
- 14:29:29 [wendy]
- forms - included in all techs? yes, reason for xforms so can embed anywhere.
- 14:29:34 [wendy]
- tables?
- 14:30:45 [wendy]
- data vs layout is an html-speicifc thing. so in gateway only discuss data.
- 14:32:46 [wendy]
- put these into friday's draft?
- 14:33:55 [wendy]
- 15.1 a copy error?
- 14:34:09 [wendy]
- action: wendy convert to xml and publish with friday's internal draft
- 14:34:50 [wendy]
- Topic: CSS Tech for image-text
- 14:34:51 [wendy]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0469.html
- 14:35:58 [wendy]
- if in a browser where can change font size (in 60pt font there is overlap). operates in OS-level high contrast mode, images turned off, css turned off...
- 14:36:16 [wendy]
- however, do we want to include a technique that says how to use image text.
- 14:36:31 [wendy]
- instead of saying, don't use text in images, say use better technologies as they become available.
- 14:36:54 [donaldfevans]
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- 14:37:00 [donaldfevans]
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- 14:37:18 [wendy]
- why don't you use alt text? IE (if you turn off images) it keeps the size of teh image and writes alt-text in default size, they won't see it.
- 14:37:19 [donaldfevans]
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- 14:38:16 [wendy]
- which guideline does this satisfy?
- 14:38:30 [wendy]
- or is it a work-around for another guideline?
- 14:39:53 [wendy]
- related to:
- 14:39:59 [wendy]
- Guideline 1.1 Provide text alternatives for all non-text content.
- 14:40:10 [wendy]
- # Guideline 1.3 Ensure that information, functionality, and structure are separable from presentation.
- 14:40:12 [wendy]
- # Guideline 1.4 In visual presentations, make it easy to distinguish foreground words and images from the background.
- 14:40:19 [wendy]
- go into css or html techniques?
- 14:40:40 [wendy]
- it's a workaround for an html issue. it's using css for the image.
- 14:42:05 [wendy]
- seems to be an optional technique
- 14:44:25 [wendy]
- want to rework our image of "old fuddy duddies" and give people information about how to develop techniques (things to consider)
- 14:44:32 [wendy]
- help apply pressure on asst tech.
- 14:45:24 [wendy]
- people complain about not making jazzy site accessible. this isn't completely perfect, because if someone is using 60pt font, but it will hit a wide audience.
- 14:45:56 [wendy]
- include it to encourage developers to make it work in 60 pt font
- 14:46:19 [wendy]
- put in css techs w/ednote saying "blurs boundaries between html and css techs"
- 14:46:28 [wendy]
- if not using css, don't want to encounter this
- 14:50:36 [wendy]
- action: wendy add to css techniques as new 6.2, add issue to bugzilla about 60 pt font
- 14:50:58 [wendy]
- action 2= wendy add to css techniques as new 6.2, add issue to bugzilla about 60 pt font, add ednote about issue
- 14:52:26 [wendy]
- next weeK: talk about blink
- 14:53:03 [wendy]
- Topic: html proposals from last week
- 14:54:35 [wendy]
- most discussion happened about h1. on call, said didn't want to do that. on list, other opinions.
- 14:54:58 [wendy]
- propose: don't create technique yet, but ednote, "discussion about restricting use of heading elements"
- 14:56:19 [wendy]
- action: michael update issue 925 with pointer to thread and summary of isues
- 14:56:34 [donaldfevans]
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- 14:56:46 [donaldfevans]
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- 14:56:48 [wendy]
- issue 899 - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0433.html
- 14:56:49 [donaldfevans]
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- 14:57:18 [wendy]
- in WCAG 1.0
- 14:57:37 [wendy]
- anything appeared in wcag 1.0, need to say something in 2.0, even if to say "don't require this"
- 14:57:56 [wendy]
- didn't we purposely pull this one?
- 14:58:51 [wendy]
- yes, although probably before concept of "deprecated technique"
- 14:58:58 [wendy]
- one response arguing against deprecating
- 15:00:34 [wendy]
- the response said HPR doesn't handle well?
- 15:00:41 [wendy]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0448.html
- 15:00:59 [wendy]
- action: becky investigate HPR support
- 15:01:29 [wendy]
- action: michael add ednote, update issue, point to issue from ednote
- 15:01:53 [wendy]
- issue 900: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0434.html
- 15:02:44 [wendy]
- related to baseline discussion
- 15:04:23 [wendy]
- mainly getting at css positioning - weird source code order where wouldn't make sense w/out css
- 15:06:02 [wendy]
- if using css+javascript won't work. this is really a test for good linearization. perhaps reformulate that way.
- 15:07:05 [wendy]
- in wcag 1.0 worded ...., in 2.0 as we move towards as acceptance of scripting it....
- 15:07:20 [wendy]
- 901 and 914 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0435.html
- 15:07:47 [wendy]
- related to plug-in discussion from wcag wg
- 15:08:10 [wendy]
- in html techs, won't say much beyond "plug-ins need to be accessible" and then point to java api doc, etc.
- 15:08:26 [wendy]
- have a tech for object/embed/applet that is comparable to d-link from 1.0?
- 15:09:17 [wendy]
- came up in context of conversation between john and joe. do any of the techniques actually work? i.e., rendering of content in an object tag.
- 15:09:39 [wendy]
- thus, only reliable method to give authors is to provide a link to it outside of the object tag, similar to d-link.
- 15:09:53 [wendy]
- need a tech under programmatic object for this?
- 15:10:11 [wendy]
- a separate discussion from bugzilla issue?
- 15:10:19 [wendy]
- this issue is about applets being directly accesible.
- 15:10:26 [wendy]
- which comes back to baseline discussion.
- 15:13:39 [wendy]
- is there a css technique that could display the alt content?
- 15:13:54 [wendy]
- would an asst tech pick it up?
- 15:14:49 [wendy]
- cuase the alt attribute or embedded content to appear on screen and test with asst. techs.
- 15:15:02 [wendy]
- try with applet, embed, and object
- 15:15:29 [wendy]
- applet and embed have alt attribute, embed and object have nested content. embed has noembed (like noscript)
- 15:16:20 [Zakim]
- -Tim_Boland
- 15:17:07 [wendy]
- action becky: play with css to cause the alt attribute or embedded content to appear on screen and test with asst. techs for applet, embed, and object
- 15:17:22 [wendy]
- action michael: add placeholder for a tech to display alt content of applet, embed, and object
- 15:18:18 [wendy]
- guidelines say that prog objects must follow uaag
- 15:19:12 [wendy]
- link to other techniques documents, e.g., link to macromedia flash techniques
- 15:19:40 [wendy]
- embedded content meet wcag. if applet follow java accessibility guidelines (for meeting wcag). the plug-in viewer would need to meet uaag.
- 15:20:27 [wendy]
- propose: create technique, 2nd ednote is that plug-in must meet uaag
- 15:20:46 [wendy]
- issue 902
- 15:20:48 [wendy]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0436.html
- 15:21:38 [wendy]
- not inherited from wcag 1.0. whole pages where the content *is* the applet. related to baseline discussion.
- 15:25:14 [wendy]
- technique with link to baseline discussion/issue
- 15:25:26 [wendy]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0437.html
- 15:26:08 [wendy]
- won't be just a cut/paste from wcag 1.0 because of changes in flicker in guidelines.
- 15:26:22 [wendy]
- may be introducing flicker issues, "go here for more info" that's cool.
- 15:26:24 [wendy]
- same with color.
- 15:26:54 [wendy]
- from w/in "direct accessiblity" include info for color and flicker since part of direct accessibility.
- 15:27:43 [wendy]
- action michael: add 903, 917 (flicker) 904, 916 (color) to diret accessibility tech
- 15:30:08 [wendy]
- presentation elements: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0440.html
- 15:31:38 [wendy]
- B and I are not deprecated, basefont and font are deprecated
- 15:32:10 [wendy]
- if not using css, why not use b and i for the purpose of formatting
- 15:35:30 [wendy]
- from matt's blog:
- 15:35:32 [wendy]
- http://www.bestkungfu.com/archive/date/2004/05/strongly-emphasizing-semantics/
- 15:35:44 [wendy]
- The <b> and <i> elements are valid HTML. They?re fine for transitional HTML applications, when they are not used interchangeably with <strong> and <em>. But they are not in the toolkits of semantic coders, and they?re misused 98% of the time. (That?s an underestimation.) If you can tell what 2% is right, go ahead and use them. If you can?t, here?s help.
- 15:35:57 [wendy]
- The Chicago Manual of Style has one approved non-emphasis-related use of bold (abbreviated ?dynamics in music"), and eight for italics. So these are the cases where using <i> is not the end of the world, with those covered by other HTML elements removed. (Note that four of them are practical subsets of the first, which is covered by the lang attribute.)
- 15:35:58 [wendy]
- * foreign words and phrases
- 15:36:00 [wendy]
- * enzyme names
- 15:36:01 [wendy]
- * gene names
- 15:36:03 [wendy]
- * genus and species
- 15:36:04 [wendy]
- * unabbreviated dynamics in music
- 15:36:06 [wendy]
- * rhyme schemes
- 15:36:07 [wendy]
- Everything else should use <strong> and <em>. (As the WCAG techniques tell us.) Authoring tools that don?t know better should assume the semantic elements were what was intended, since almost all of the time they will be correct.
- 15:36:24 [wendy]
- reference Chicago Manual of Style (ala Matt)
- 15:39:11 [ChrisR]
- test process: http://tile-cridpath.atrc.utoronto.ca/acheck/ctprocess.html
- 15:40:35 [Zakim]
- -Chris_Ridpath
- 15:40:40 [Zakim]
- -Don_Evans
- 15:41:11 [wendy]
- add list to technique as proposed, make clear it is not a requirement. add additional elements from html spec. add pointer to chicago manual of style.
- 15:41:23 [wendy]
- 912 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0441.html
- 15:42:26 [wendy]
- only for left to right language.
- 15:42:51 [wendy]
- do we speak about forms in tables? a diff technique?
- 15:43:22 [wendy]
- included in feedback from ibm. it is already a bugzilla issue.
- 15:44:16 [wendy]
- there are cases where sometimes visually it is very obvious what goes into the field.
- 15:45:20 [wendy]
- prompt says "month day year" and 3 elements, obvious visually. not obvious using screen reader.
- 15:45:40 [wendy]
- needed labels for field but didn't want to use visual lable.
- 15:45:45 [wendy]
- jim uses title.
- 15:45:51 [wendy]
- in css could use display:hidden
- 15:46:36 [wendy]
- action: propose techniques, add issue for invisble labels for forms
- 15:46:50 [wendy]
- action 9 = becky propose techniques, add issue for invisble labels for forms
- 15:47:13 [wendy]
- 913 accepted
- 15:47:19 [wendy]
- 915 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0443.html
- 15:47:41 [wendy]
- wrt 914 - is title an alternative way to provide text that we can experiment with
- 15:47:50 [wendy]
- 915 - as proposed, don't create fornow
- 15:48:04 [wendy]
- leave it open, title is not reliable.
- 15:48:12 [wendy]
- 918 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0444.html
- 15:49:05 [wendy]
- yes, placeholder. related to baseline as well as the function of the script. some require discussion, some dont.
- 15:49:31 [wendy]
- want to avoid noscript tags taht say, "script decorative. text not needed"
- 15:49:48 [wendy]
- 922 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0445.html
- 15:50:24 [wendy]
- isn't it a css thing?
- 15:52:03 [wendy]
- color is attribute of font and basefont, deprecated. bgcolor deprecated.
- 15:53:19 [wendy]
- since a lot of people are using these attributes, create a technique that points to gateway and css for color.
- 15:53:38 [wendy]
- 925 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0446.html
- 15:53:47 [wendy]
- ednote, pointer to issue, leave issue open
- 15:54:58 [Zakim]
- -Michael_Cooper
- 15:54:59 [Zakim]
- -Ben
- 15:55:00 [Zakim]
- -Becky_Gibson
- 15:55:01 [Zakim]
- WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended
- 15:55:02 [Zakim]
- Attendees were Chris_Ridpath, Michael_Cooper, Becky_Gibson, Ben, Wendy, Tim_Boland, Don_Evans
- 15:56:59 [wendy]
- zakim, bye
- 15:56:59 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #wai-wcag
- 15:57:03 [wendy]
- RRSAgent, make log world
- 16:06:01 [wendy]
- RRSAgent, make log world
- 16:07:17 [wendy]
- RRSAgent, bye
- 16:07:17 [RRSAgent]
- I see 9 open action items:
- 16:07:17 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: wendy convert to xml and publish with friday's internal draft [1]
- 16:07:17 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/01-wai-wcag-irc#T14-34-09
- 16:07:17 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: wendy add to css techniques as new 6.2, add issue to bugzilla about 60 pt font, add ednote about issue [2]
- 16:07:17 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/01-wai-wcag-irc#T14-50-36
- 16:07:17 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: michael update issue 925 with pointer to thread and summary of isues [3]
- 16:07:17 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/01-wai-wcag-irc#T14-56-19
- 16:07:17 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: becky investigate HPR support [4]
- 16:07:17 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/01-wai-wcag-irc#T15-00-59
- 16:07:17 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: michael add ednote, update issue, point to issue from ednote [5]
- 16:07:17 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/01-wai-wcag-irc#T15-01-29
- 16:07:17 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: becky to play with css to cause the alt attribute or embedded content to appear on screen and test with asst. techs for applet, embed, and object [6]
- 16:07:17 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/01-wai-wcag-irc#T15-17-07
- 16:07:17 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: michael to add placeholder for a tech to display alt content of applet, embed, and object [7]
- 16:07:17 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/01-wai-wcag-irc#T15-17-22
- 16:07:17 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: michael to add 903, 917 (flicker) 904, 916 (color) to diret accessibility tech [8]
- 16:07:17 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/01-wai-wcag-irc#T15-27-43
- 16:07:17 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: becky propose techniques, add issue for invisble labels for forms [9]
- 16:07:17 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/01-wai-wcag-irc#T15-46-36