IRC log of wai-wcag on 2004-08-25
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 13:59:28 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
- 14:00:02 [ChrisR]
- ChrisR has joined #wai-wcag
- 14:00:16 [Zakim]
- WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has now started
- 14:00:23 [Zakim]
- +Michael_Cooper
- 14:00:25 [Michael]
- zakim, I am Michael_Cooper
- 14:00:25 [Zakim]
- ok, Michael, I now associate you with Michael_Cooper
- 14:00:49 [nabe]
- nabe has joined #wai-wcag
- 14:00:57 [Zakim]
- +Chris_Ridpath
- 14:01:21 [Zakim]
- +??P8
- 14:01:26 [Zakim]
- +Alex_Li
- 14:01:39 [Michael]
- zakim, ??P8 is David_MacDonald
- 14:01:39 [Zakim]
- +David_MacDonald; got it
- 14:01:55 [Becky]
- Becky has joined #wai-wcag
- 14:02:35 [Zakim]
- +??P12
- 14:02:55 [Michael]
- zakim, ??P12 is Takayuki_Watanabe
- 14:02:58 [Zakim]
- +Takayuki_Watanabe; got it
- 14:03:02 [Zakim]
- +Becky_Gibson
- 14:03:26 [Zakim]
- +John_Slatin
- 14:03:47 [nabe]
- zakim, I am Takayuki_Watanabe
- 14:03:47 [Zakim]
- ok, nabe, I now associate you with Takayuki_Watanabe
- 14:03:57 [Zakim]
- +Wendy
- 14:04:29 [wendy]
- wendy has joined #wai-wcag
- 14:05:10 [wendy]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 14:05:10 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Michael_Cooper, Chris_Ridpath, David_MacDonald, Alex_Li, Takayuki_Watanabe, Becky_Gibson, John_Slatin, Wendy
- 14:05:53 [Zakim]
- +[Microsoft]
- 14:06:37 [Michael]
- zakim, [Microsoft] is temporarily Jenae_Andershonis
- 14:06:37 [Zakim]
- +Jenae_Andershonis; got it
- 14:08:11 [wendy]
- Topic: Techniques proposals
- 14:08:42 [wendy]
- Gateway, John: has not gone to list as proposal. still working on.
- 14:08:59 [wendy]
- goal: to have draft to list as proposal by end of friday.
- 14:09:16 [wendy]
- have not received feedback on 1.1 from 30 july draft.
- 14:10:23 [wendy]
- mc: want to discuss anything?
- 14:11:14 [wendy]
- js: purpose of gateway is to set up use of other technologies, would like people to take a look where mention other technologies (e.g., svg, mathml)
- 14:11:24 [Zakim]
- +??P26
- 14:11:46 [Michael]
- zakim, ??P26 is Lisa_Seeman
- 14:11:46 [Zakim]
- +Lisa_Seeman; got it
- 14:12:00 [wendy]
- js: secondly, in general, is it making sense and fulfilling the purpose/role you had anticipated/expected for gateway
- 14:12:32 [wendy]
- js: there is material in the 30 july draft that needs reviewing. there is also a proposal that will be coming on friday.
- 14:20:40 [wendy]
- CSS, Wendy: need results of testing from user agents (e.g. support for xx-small to xx-large) before know how to move forward. will approach uawg about testing. found a test file. wonder about how it *should* work in a screen reader.
- 14:22:15 [wendy]
- wac sent requests for review/contributions to variety of css developers
- 14:24:07 [wendy]
- bg looked up image replacement thread. tom gilmore found a way to use images of text and have equivalents that screen readers will pick up.
- 14:25:56 [wendy]
- action: bg send proposal to list re: image replacement technique
- 14:26:23 [wendy]
- HTML, Michael: went through techniques that chris submitted and created proposals around them.
- 14:26:32 [wendy]
- mc with 6, decided they were gateway techniques not html.
- 14:28:36 [wendy]
- mc after incorporated into gateway, may come back to html techniques (after we have the structure)
- 14:29:11 [wendy]
- js issue with granularity of gateway techniques in relation to the tech-specific.
- 14:29:48 [wendy]
- js tend to think in terms of present the issues/general considerations in connection w/a particular guideline then break those into categories and then funnel out to tech-specifics.
- 14:30:30 [wendy]
- js might be a general thing about link text or several places in gateway to talk about. but, don't think we're all operating under the same assumptions wrt gateway.
- 14:30:34 [Michael]
- ack David
- 14:30:35 [wendy]
- s/gateway/granularity
- 14:31:11 [wendy]
- mc a gateway tech to talk about clear link text. in html: when creating area, "follow this gateway technique"
- 14:31:41 [wendy]
- dmd some people only read techniques. it puts a burden on us to make the integration in such a way that they get the interconnections or lose things in the shuffle.
- 14:31:54 [wendy]
- dmd be careful when moving critical information to the gateway.
- 14:32:17 [wendy]
- js how do we deal with things where multiple technologies are involved or required to make one thing happen.
- 14:32:35 [wendy]
- js easy to imagine things where to do something you need html, css, and scripting at a minimum.
- 14:32:48 [wendy]
- js since those live in different documents, how make sure they all get pulled together?
- 14:32:55 [wendy]
- js e.g., zooming images.
- 14:33:23 [wendy]
- js for 1.3, showing the structure of graphical material, can do that in svg. zooming would allow you to get at the detail.
- 14:34:45 [wendy]
- ls xsl can pull in different documents, it can be an entry point and apply diff xsl.
- 14:35:08 [wendy]
- mc can make the connections in the xml documents, less clear on how to present to people.
- 14:37:06 [wendy]
- wac think some of this will be tied together in the scripting techniques. matt may recruited several scripting people to the mailing list. has promised a first internal draft by 10 sept.
- 14:37:48 [wendy]
- mc for other of chris' submissions, some were obviously/easy to make into techniques. others were related to wcag 1.0 guidelines. some i combined concepts.
- 14:38:06 [wendy]
- mc e.g., "make sure plug-ins are directly accessible" same with color and flicker.
- 14:38:23 [wendy]
- mc those will need to point to guidelines or gateway techniques
- 14:39:05 [wendy]
- mc html techs can't say too much about plug-ins, because they are not html.
- 14:39:16 [wendy]
- js perhaps this is where the gateway can pull together? it can talk about plug-ins
- 14:39:36 [wendy]
- js gateway can say, this (html) is not sufficient on its own
- 14:40:06 [wendy]
- wac then in resources, point to flash or java techniques (at macromedia or sun or ibm)
- 14:41:26 [wendy]
- wac similar issue with multimedia. in gateway we'll say that captions need to be provided, but point off to real/quicktime/smil etc for *how* to provide the captions.
- 14:41:35 [wendy]
- js then there are issues with the player themselves.
- 14:41:49 [wendy]
- mc our techniques have to speak to ways that do work
- 14:42:07 [wendy]
- mc w/applets, say "better to use plug-in than applet viewer" where do we say that?
- 14:43:38 [wendy]
- wac display user agent data in gateway or html techs? perhaps both
- 14:43:47 [wendy]
- mc "plug-ins" only apply to html?
- 14:44:05 [wendy]
- wac mixed namespaces, not sure called "plug-in" but need code that can interpret
- 14:44:18 [wendy]
- js 508 says "if need 3rd party s/w to render..." provide a link
- 14:44:30 [wendy]
- mc jw has talked about "accessible viewer"
- 14:44:43 [wendy]
- mc decided not to bump plug-ins off my plate, but may bump parts to gateway
- 14:45:27 [wendy]
- mc combined 4 techniques about presentational elements (b, i, basefont, font). propose that we add those to a list of html elements that should be replaced with css.
- 14:45:44 [wendy]
- mc an existing technique, but no list of elements yet. propose these are the beginning of the list.
- 14:46:14 [wendy]
- mc "title attribute for object" - my feeling, we dont' make title mandatory for most elements, therefore shouldn't do it here.
- 14:46:33 [wendy]
- cr i wll send a message to the list. need to figure out where that one came from.
- 14:46:37 [wendy]
- #915
- 14:47:18 [wendy]
- mc "mandatory h1" - require that the first heading on a page be an h1. this is used in the french accessibility guidelines. unsure if wcag would require.
- 14:47:54 [wendy]
- mc several approaches: 1. don't require 2. if using headings, start with h1 3. if require, then also require that be the first one on the page 4. or only that it is is present
- 14:48:18 [wendy]
- mc could have h2 indicating navigation then h1 in the body
- 14:48:24 [wendy]
- mc therefore, not always first one
- 14:48:57 [wendy]
- ls document could be part of set of documents
- 14:49:12 [wendy]
- mc if requiring h1s, require only one or are multiple ok?
- 14:49:27 [wendy]
- ls if something is part of a book, could say "title page elsewhere"
- 14:51:30 [wendy]
- http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/global.html#edef-H1
- 14:52:15 [wendy]
- http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/sgml/dtd.html
- 14:55:45 [wendy]
- http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-structural.html#edef_structural_heading
- 14:56:07 [wendy]
- in xhtml 2 use h/section
- 14:56:35 [wendy]
- mc braillenet may use h1 to indicate start of content (i.e., when have h2 to indicate beginning of navigation)
- 15:01:06 [Zakim]
- -Lisa_Seeman
- 15:01:32 [wendy]
- on this call: agreement that most important is headings to be nested correctly, h1 is not required. it is on the list for discussion, but not a lot of support for it.
- 15:01:54 [Zakim]
- +??P25
- 15:02:14 [wendy]
- zakim, ??P25 is Lisa_Seeman
- 15:02:14 [Zakim]
- +Lisa_Seeman; got it
- 15:02:33 [Becky]
- I have to run to another meeting - bye
- 15:02:40 [wendy]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2004/07/WD-plan.html
- 15:02:52 [Zakim]
- -Becky_Gibson
- 15:02:54 [Zakim]
- -John_Slatin
- 15:11:38 [ChrisR]
- Test Suite: http://tile-cridpath.atrc.utoronto.ca/acheck/servlet/ShowGuide?name=wcag-2-0-aaa.xml&lang=eng&wcag=true
- 15:14:52 [Michael]
- action: Michael review test suite for language
- 15:16:47 [David_MacDonald]
- David_MacDonald has joined #wai-wcag
- 15:17:40 [wendy]
- cr proposes that the test suite should be normative
- 15:17:47 [wendy]
- wac how often update for new techniques?
- 15:17:50 [wendy]
- cr once a year
- 15:21:57 [wendy]
- cr if its not normative, is there another status to give it?
- 15:22:22 [wendy]
- ls such a restriction on creativity
- 15:22:49 [wendy]
- wac realistic to update every year when has taken 6 to produce one normative document?
- 15:26:24 [wendy]
- cr not meant to restrict people. you can't remove some of these things. meant to show that we know the best way to mark up tables (e.g.)
- 15:26:32 [wendy]
- cr this is the minimum standard
- 15:26:38 [wendy]
- cr it's base level accessibility
- 15:26:45 [wendy]
- (for html)
- 15:27:34 [wendy]
- cr want this to be strong and clear
- 15:28:23 [wendy]
- ls have you looked at the work of task force 3 from EuroAccessibility?
- 15:28:32 [wendy]
- ls they are defining methodologies for testing.
- 15:29:08 [wendy]
- q+ to say "what about usability testing?"
- 15:31:32 [wendy]
- zakim, who's making noise?
- 15:31:44 [Zakim]
- wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Chris_Ridpath (9%), David_MacDonald (18%), Lisa_Seeman (96%)
- 15:31:50 [wendy]
- zakim, mute David
- 15:31:50 [Zakim]
- David_MacDonald should now be muted
- 15:31:55 [wendy]
- zakim, unmute David
- 15:31:55 [Zakim]
- David_MacDonald should no longer be muted
- 15:32:14 [Zakim]
- -Takayuki_Watanabe
- 15:33:51 [Zakim]
- -Lisa_Seeman
- 15:34:27 [Zakim]
- +??P12
- 15:37:42 [wendy]
- further discussion about normative or not. pros or cons.
- 15:38:53 [Michael]
- action: Chris post link to test suite to list
- 15:40:35 [Zakim]
- -Michael_Cooper
- 15:40:36 [Zakim]
- -Alex_Li
- 15:40:37 [Zakim]
- -Wendy
- 15:40:37 [ChrisR]
- ChrisR has left #wai-wcag
- 15:40:38 [Zakim]
- -Chris_Ridpath
- 15:40:39 [Zakim]
- -??P12
- 15:40:40 [Zakim]
- -Jenae_Andershonis
- 15:40:41 [Zakim]
- -David_MacDonald
- 15:40:42 [Zakim]
- WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended
- 15:40:43 [Zakim]
- Attendees were Michael_Cooper, Chris_Ridpath, Alex_Li, David_MacDonald, Takayuki_Watanabe, Becky_Gibson, John_Slatin, Wendy, Jenae_Andershonis, Lisa_Seeman
- 15:41:00 [wendy]
- RRSAgent, make log world
- 15:52:58 [nabe]
- nabe has left #wai-wcag
- 16:31:37 [wendy]
- zakim, bye
- 16:31:37 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #wai-wcag
- 16:31:41 [wendy]
- RRSAgent, bye
- 16:31:41 [RRSAgent]
- I see 3 open action items:
- 16:31:41 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: bg send proposal to list re: image replacement technique [1]
- 16:31:41 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/08/25-wai-wcag-irc#T14-25-56
- 16:31:41 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Michael review test suite for language [2]
- 16:31:41 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/08/25-wai-wcag-irc#T15-14-52
- 16:31:41 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Chris post link to test suite to list [3]
- 16:31:41 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/08/25-wai-wcag-irc#T15-38-53