IRC log of wai-wcag on 2004-08-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:59:28 [RRSAgent]

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14:00:02 [ChrisR]

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14:00:16 [Zakim]

WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has now started

14:00:23 [Zakim]

+Michael_Cooper

14:00:25 [Michael]

zakim, I am Michael_Cooper

14:00:25 [Zakim]

ok, Michael, I now associate you with Michael_Cooper

14:00:49 [nabe]

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14:00:57 [Zakim]

+Chris_Ridpath

14:01:21 [Zakim]

+??P8

14:01:26 [Zakim]

+Alex_Li

14:01:39 [Michael]

zakim, ??P8 is David_MacDonald

14:01:39 [Zakim]

+David_MacDonald; got it

14:01:55 [Becky]

Becky has joined #wai-wcag

14:02:35 [Zakim]

+??P12

14:02:55 [Michael]

zakim, ??P12 is Takayuki_Watanabe

14:02:58 [Zakim]

+Takayuki_Watanabe; got it

14:03:02 [Zakim]

+Becky_Gibson

14:03:26 [Zakim]

+John_Slatin

14:03:47 [nabe]

zakim, I am Takayuki_Watanabe

14:03:47 [Zakim]

ok, nabe, I now associate you with Takayuki_Watanabe

14:03:57 [Zakim]

+Wendy

14:04:29 [wendy]

wendy has joined #wai-wcag

14:05:10 [wendy]

zakim, who's on the phone?

14:05:10 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Michael_Cooper, Chris_Ridpath, David_MacDonald, Alex_Li, Takayuki_Watanabe, Becky_Gibson, John_Slatin, Wendy

14:05:53 [Zakim]

+[Microsoft]

14:06:37 [Michael]

zakim, [Microsoft] is temporarily Jenae_Andershonis

14:06:37 [Zakim]

+Jenae_Andershonis; got it

14:08:11 [wendy]

Topic: Techniques proposals

14:08:42 [wendy]

Gateway, John: has not gone to list as proposal. still working on.

14:08:59 [wendy]

goal: to have draft to list as proposal by end of friday.

14:09:16 [wendy]

have not received feedback on 1.1 from 30 july draft.

14:10:23 [wendy]

mc: want to discuss anything?

14:11:14 [wendy]

js: purpose of gateway is to set up use of other technologies, would like people to take a look where mention other technologies (e.g., svg, mathml)

14:11:24 [Zakim]

+??P26

14:11:46 [Michael]

zakim, ??P26 is Lisa_Seeman

14:11:46 [Zakim]

+Lisa_Seeman; got it

14:12:00 [wendy]

js: secondly, in general, is it making sense and fulfilling the purpose/role you had anticipated/expected for gateway

14:12:32 [wendy]

js: there is material in the 30 july draft that needs reviewing. there is also a proposal that will be coming on friday.

14:20:40 [wendy]

CSS, Wendy: need results of testing from user agents (e.g. support for xx-small to xx-large) before know how to move forward. will approach uawg about testing. found a test file. wonder about how it *should* work in a screen reader.

14:22:15 [wendy]

wac sent requests for review/contributions to variety of css developers

14:24:07 [wendy]

bg looked up image replacement thread. tom gilmore found a way to use images of text and have equivalents that screen readers will pick up.

14:25:56 [wendy]

action: bg send proposal to list re: image replacement technique

14:26:23 [wendy]

HTML, Michael: went through techniques that chris submitted and created proposals around them.

14:26:32 [wendy]

mc with 6, decided they were gateway techniques not html.

14:28:36 [wendy]

mc after incorporated into gateway, may come back to html techniques (after we have the structure)

14:29:11 [wendy]

js issue with granularity of gateway techniques in relation to the tech-specific.

14:29:48 [wendy]

js tend to think in terms of present the issues/general considerations in connection w/a particular guideline then break those into categories and then funnel out to tech-specifics.

14:30:30 [wendy]

js might be a general thing about link text or several places in gateway to talk about. but, don't think we're all operating under the same assumptions wrt gateway.

14:30:34 [Michael]

ack David

14:30:35 [wendy]

s/gateway/granularity

14:31:11 [wendy]

mc a gateway tech to talk about clear link text. in html: when creating area, "follow this gateway technique"

14:31:41 [wendy]

dmd some people only read techniques. it puts a burden on us to make the integration in such a way that they get the interconnections or lose things in the shuffle.

14:31:54 [wendy]

dmd be careful when moving critical information to the gateway.

14:32:17 [wendy]

js how do we deal with things where multiple technologies are involved or required to make one thing happen.

14:32:35 [wendy]

js easy to imagine things where to do something you need html, css, and scripting at a minimum.

14:32:48 [wendy]

js since those live in different documents, how make sure they all get pulled together?

14:32:55 [wendy]

js e.g., zooming images.

14:33:23 [wendy]

js for 1.3, showing the structure of graphical material, can do that in svg. zooming would allow you to get at the detail.

14:34:45 [wendy]

ls xsl can pull in different documents, it can be an entry point and apply diff xsl.

14:35:08 [wendy]

mc can make the connections in the xml documents, less clear on how to present to people.

14:37:06 [wendy]

wac think some of this will be tied together in the scripting techniques. matt may recruited several scripting people to the mailing list. has promised a first internal draft by 10 sept.

14:37:48 [wendy]

mc for other of chris' submissions, some were obviously/easy to make into techniques. others were related to wcag 1.0 guidelines. some i combined concepts.

14:38:06 [wendy]

mc e.g., "make sure plug-ins are directly accessible" same with color and flicker.

14:38:23 [wendy]

mc those will need to point to guidelines or gateway techniques

14:39:05 [wendy]

mc html techs can't say too much about plug-ins, because they are not html.

14:39:16 [wendy]

js perhaps this is where the gateway can pull together? it can talk about plug-ins

14:39:36 [wendy]

js gateway can say, this (html) is not sufficient on its own

14:40:06 [wendy]

wac then in resources, point to flash or java techniques (at macromedia or sun or ibm)

14:41:26 [wendy]

wac similar issue with multimedia. in gateway we'll say that captions need to be provided, but point off to real/quicktime/smil etc for *how* to provide the captions.

14:41:35 [wendy]

js then there are issues with the player themselves.

14:41:49 [wendy]

mc our techniques have to speak to ways that do work

14:42:07 [wendy]

mc w/applets, say "better to use plug-in than applet viewer" where do we say that?

14:43:38 [wendy]

wac display user agent data in gateway or html techs? perhaps both

14:43:47 [wendy]

mc "plug-ins" only apply to html?

14:44:05 [wendy]

wac mixed namespaces, not sure called "plug-in" but need code that can interpret

14:44:18 [wendy]

js 508 says "if need 3rd party s/w to render..." provide a link

14:44:30 [wendy]

mc jw has talked about "accessible viewer"

14:44:43 [wendy]

mc decided not to bump plug-ins off my plate, but may bump parts to gateway

14:45:27 [wendy]

mc combined 4 techniques about presentational elements (b, i, basefont, font). propose that we add those to a list of html elements that should be replaced with css.

14:45:44 [wendy]

mc an existing technique, but no list of elements yet. propose these are the beginning of the list.

14:46:14 [wendy]

mc "title attribute for object" - my feeling, we dont' make title mandatory for most elements, therefore shouldn't do it here.

14:46:33 [wendy]

cr i wll send a message to the list. need to figure out where that one came from.

14:46:37 [wendy]

#915

14:47:18 [wendy]

mc "mandatory h1" - require that the first heading on a page be an h1. this is used in the french accessibility guidelines. unsure if wcag would require.

14:47:54 [wendy]

mc several approaches: 1. don't require 2. if using headings, start with h1 3. if require, then also require that be the first one on the page 4. or only that it is is present

14:48:18 [wendy]

mc could have h2 indicating navigation then h1 in the body

14:48:24 [wendy]

mc therefore, not always first one

14:48:57 [wendy]

ls document could be part of set of documents

14:49:12 [wendy]

mc if requiring h1s, require only one or are multiple ok?

14:49:27 [wendy]

ls if something is part of a book, could say "title page elsewhere"

14:51:30 [wendy]

http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/global.html#edef-H1

14:52:15 [wendy]

http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/sgml/dtd.html

14:55:45 [wendy]

http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-structural.html#edef_structural_heading

14:56:07 [wendy]

in xhtml 2 use h/section

14:56:35 [wendy]

mc braillenet may use h1 to indicate start of content (i.e., when have h2 to indicate beginning of navigation)

15:01:06 [Zakim]

-Lisa_Seeman

15:01:32 [wendy]

on this call: agreement that most important is headings to be nested correctly, h1 is not required. it is on the list for discussion, but not a lot of support for it.

15:01:54 [Zakim]

+??P25

15:02:14 [wendy]

zakim, ??P25 is Lisa_Seeman

15:02:14 [Zakim]

+Lisa_Seeman; got it

15:02:33 [Becky]

I have to run to another meeting - bye

15:02:40 [wendy]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2004/07/WD-plan.html

15:02:52 [Zakim]

-Becky_Gibson

15:02:54 [Zakim]

-John_Slatin

15:11:38 [ChrisR]

Test Suite: http://tile-cridpath.atrc.utoronto.ca/acheck/servlet/ShowGuide?name=wcag-2-0-aaa.xml&lang=eng&wcag=true

15:14:52 [Michael]

action: Michael review test suite for language

15:16:47 [David_MacDonald]

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15:17:40 [wendy]

cr proposes that the test suite should be normative

15:17:47 [wendy]

wac how often update for new techniques?

15:17:50 [wendy]

cr once a year

15:21:57 [wendy]

cr if its not normative, is there another status to give it?

15:22:22 [wendy]

ls such a restriction on creativity

15:22:49 [wendy]

wac realistic to update every year when has taken 6 to produce one normative document?

15:26:24 [wendy]

cr not meant to restrict people. you can't remove some of these things. meant to show that we know the best way to mark up tables (e.g.)

15:26:32 [wendy]

cr this is the minimum standard

15:26:38 [wendy]

cr it's base level accessibility

15:26:45 [wendy]

(for html)

15:27:34 [wendy]

cr want this to be strong and clear

15:28:23 [wendy]

ls have you looked at the work of task force 3 from EuroAccessibility?

15:28:32 [wendy]

ls they are defining methodologies for testing.

15:29:08 [wendy]

q+ to say "what about usability testing?"

15:31:32 [wendy]

zakim, who's making noise?

15:31:44 [Zakim]

wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Chris_Ridpath (9%), David_MacDonald (18%), Lisa_Seeman (96%)

15:31:50 [wendy]

zakim, mute David

15:31:50 [Zakim]

David_MacDonald should now be muted

15:31:55 [wendy]

zakim, unmute David

15:31:55 [Zakim]

David_MacDonald should no longer be muted

15:32:14 [Zakim]

-Takayuki_Watanabe

15:33:51 [Zakim]

-Lisa_Seeman

15:34:27 [Zakim]

+??P12

15:37:42 [wendy]

further discussion about normative or not. pros or cons.

15:38:53 [Michael]

action: Chris post link to test suite to list

15:40:35 [Zakim]

-Michael_Cooper

15:40:36 [Zakim]

-Alex_Li

15:40:37 [Zakim]

-Wendy

15:40:37 [ChrisR]

ChrisR has left #wai-wcag

15:40:38 [Zakim]

-Chris_Ridpath

15:40:39 [Zakim]

-??P12

15:40:40 [Zakim]

-Jenae_Andershonis

15:40:41 [Zakim]

-David_MacDonald

15:40:42 [Zakim]

WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended

15:40:43 [Zakim]

Attendees were Michael_Cooper, Chris_Ridpath, Alex_Li, David_MacDonald, Takayuki_Watanabe, Becky_Gibson, John_Slatin, Wendy, Jenae_Andershonis, Lisa_Seeman

15:41:00 [wendy]

RRSAgent, make log world

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16:31:37 [wendy]

zakim, bye

16:31:37 [Zakim]

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16:31:41 [wendy]

RRSAgent, bye

16:31:41 [RRSAgent]

I see 3 open action items:

16:31:41 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: bg send proposal to list re: image replacement technique [1]

16:31:41 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/08/25-wai-wcag-irc#T14-25-56

16:31:41 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Michael review test suite for language [2]

16:31:41 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/08/25-wai-wcag-irc#T15-14-52

16:31:41 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Chris post link to test suite to list [3]

16:31:41 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/08/25-wai-wcag-irc#T15-38-53