IRC log of dawg on 2004-08-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:28:04 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #dawg

14:28:09 [DaveB]

Zakime, ??P12 is DaveB

14:28:14 [DaveB]

Zakim, ??P12 is DaveB

14:28:14 [Zakim]

+DaveB; got it

14:28:22 [DaveB]

Zakim, ??P36 is JanneS

14:28:22 [Zakim]

+JanneS; got it

14:29:06 [Zakim]

+HowardK

14:29:19 [rob]

rob has joined #dawg

14:29:21 [EnricoF]

EnricoF has joined #dawg

14:29:31 [Zakim]

+ +1.301.768.aaaa

14:29:37 [Zakim]

+RobS

14:29:45 [kendall]

kendall has joined #dawg

14:29:54 [Zakim]

+??P40

14:29:57 [AndyS]

zakim, ??P40 is AndyS

14:29:57 [Zakim]

+AndyS; got it

14:30:02 [DaveB]

... aaaa is KendallC

14:30:08 [kendall]

thanks

14:30:17 [Zakim]

+ChrisR|Yvette_Hoitink

14:30:22 [Zakim]

+DanC

14:30:40 [DaveB]

Zakim, +1.301.768.aaaa is kendall

14:30:40 [Zakim]

+kendall; got it

14:30:50 [Zakim]

+ +39.047.aabb

14:30:50 [TomAdams]

TomAdams has joined #dawg

14:30:55 [SteveH]

who is ChrisR...

14:31:06 [SteveH]

may be me, I'm dialed in through a call centre

14:31:08 [Zakim]

+EricP

14:31:12 [DaveB]

country code 39, hmm

14:31:13 [DanC]

Zakim, take up agendum 1

14:31:13 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "Convene, take roll, review record, agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JulSep/0297.html" taken up [from DanC]

14:31:14 [ericP]

zakim, who is here?

14:31:15 [Zakim]

On the phone I see DaveB, Farrukh_Najmi, JanneS, HowardK, kendall, RobS, AndyS, ChrisRYvette_Hoitink, DanC, +39.047.aabb, EricP

14:31:17 [Zakim]

On IRC I see TomAdams, kendall, EnricoF, rob, RRSAgent, AndyS, JanneS, FarrukhNajmi, DaveB, howardk, ericP, Yoshio, Zakim, DanC, SimonR, SteveH, afs

14:31:54 [Yoshio]

zakim, call Yoshio-home

14:31:54 [Zakim]

I am sorry, Yoshio; I don't have the necessary resources to dial out right now

14:31:59 [Zakim]

+??P45

14:32:08 [alberto]

alberto has joined #dawg

14:32:11 [Zakim]

+[Tucana]

14:32:23 [TomAdams]

zakim, tucana is TomAdams

14:32:23 [Zakim]

+TomAdams; got it

14:32:30 [Yoshio]

Mmm, no resource?

14:33:03 [DanC]

Zakim, who's on the phone?

14:33:03 [Zakim]

On the phone I see DaveB, Farrukh_Najmi, JanneS, HowardK, kendall, RobS, AndyS, ChrisRYvette_Hoitink, DanC, Enrico, EricP, SimonR, TomAdams

14:33:16 [Yoshio]

zakim, call Yoshio-home

14:33:16 [Zakim]

I am sorry, Yoshio; I don't have the necessary resources to dial out right now

14:33:25 [Zakim]

+ +46.3.17.40.aacc

14:33:48 [DanC]

Zakim, aacc is AlbertoR

14:33:48 [Zakim]

+AlbertoR; got it

14:34:18 [SteveH]

Zakim, ChrisRYvette_Hiotink is SteveH

14:34:18 [Zakim]

sorry, SteveH, I do not recognize a party named 'ChrisRYvette_Hiotink'

14:34:29 [SteveH]

Zakim, ChrisR|Yvette_Hiotink is SteveH

14:34:29 [Zakim]

sorry, SteveH, I do not recognize a party named 'ChrisR|Yvette_Hiotink'

14:35:24 [ericP]

DONE DanC: evaluate Tom's proposed reply

14:35:39 [ericP]

next scribe: Alberto

14:35:43 [DaveB]

regrets for me 2004-08-31

14:35:47 [ericP]

ACTION: TomA: draft reply to Bjoerern Hoehrmann

14:35:50 [ericP]

DONE

14:35:59 [Yoshio]

zakim, drop Yoshio

14:35:59 [Zakim]

sorry, Yoshio, I do not see a party named 'Yoshio'

14:36:14 [DanC]

agenda + BP review of UC&R [TomA]

14:36:22 [Yoshio]

zakim, call Yoshio-Home

14:36:22 [Zakim]

I am sorry, Yoshio; I don't have the necessary resources to dial out right now

14:36:27 [Zakim]

+Farrukh_Najmi.a

14:36:39 [DanC]

Zakim, next agendum

14:36:39 [Zakim]

agendum 2. "Review "Semantic Interpretation for Speech Recognition"" taken up [from DanC]

14:37:10 [Yoshio]

Hmm, I can't be dialed out, can somebody help this?

14:37:14 [DanC]

steve's review http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JulSep/0302.html

14:37:27 [DanC]

yoshio, zakim dial-out seems to be donwn; can you dial in?

14:37:40 [Yoshio]

I'm afraid not

14:37:43 [ericP]

ACTIONs on EricP and SteveH to read http://www.w3.org/TR/semantic-interpretation/ and let DAWG

14:38:04 [ericP]

SteveH: not much to do with RDF

14:38:18 [FarrukhNajmi]

FarrukhNajmi has joined #dawg

14:38:36 [ericP]

... references EMMA (grammars and RDF)

14:38:38 [kendall]

+q to ask about background

14:38:46 [kendall]

q+ to ask about background

14:39:24 [kendall]

q-

14:40:05 [ericP]

EricP: doc is forms for speach rather than forms for clicky/typy events

14:40:18 [kendall]

zakim, mute me

14:40:18 [Zakim]

kendall should now be muted

14:40:47 [ericP]

SteveH: Emma notes that there's no RDF query lang

14:41:00 [kendall]

zakim, unmute me

14:41:00 [Zakim]

kendall should no longer be muted

14:41:21 [SteveH]

not big RF users, mostly using mixed XML+RDF

14:41:28 [SteveH]

s/RF/RDF/

14:41:58 [DanC]

Zakim, next agendum

14:41:58 [Zakim]

agendum 3. "SOURCE, "provenance"/data-management " taken up [from DanC]

14:41:59 [ericP]

DanC: we are better informed, but do not need to look further into http://www.w3.org/TR/semantic-interpretation/

14:42:06 [Zakim]

-kendall

14:42:35 [Zakim]

+kendall

14:43:07 [DaveB]

re actions danc 1) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JulSep/0309.html

14:43:15 [DaveB]

redland http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JulSep/0305.html

14:43:52 [DaveB]

source issue http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JulSep/0307.html

14:44:01 [Zakim]

+JosD

14:44:13 [ericP]

DaveB: end of doc proposes which provenance support we should keep and which we should drop

14:44:24 [DanC]

DaveB's proposal re source http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JulSep/0307.html

14:44:26 [ericP]

... allow source info to be returned but not queried

14:44:41 [kendall]

dave's suggestion doesn't really work for my users, I think...

14:44:42 [ericP]

AndyS: other restriction? can't mention variable elsewhere?

14:44:46 [ericP]

DaveB: yup

14:44:57 [ericP]

AndyS: guarantee that it's a URI?

14:45:55 [ericP]

DaveB: cost of not implementing is low

14:46:06 [kendall]

q+ to suggest other use cases

14:46:11 [ericP]

... makes it a low cost optional feature

14:46:17 [alberto]

q+

14:46:33 [ericP]

... motivated by stores that don't have prov support

14:47:54 [ericP]

SimonR: itql supprts both returning and restricting on prov

14:47:56 [DanC]

ack kendall

14:47:56 [Zakim]

kendall, you wanted to suggest other use cases

14:48:06 [AndyS]

q+ about inference across models

14:48:14 [AndyS]

q+ to ask about inference across models

14:48:35 [ericP]

Kendall: Mindlab use cases need URI for restriction

14:48:43 [ericP]

(vs. selection)

14:49:49 [ericP]

DaveB: adding querying across multiple graphs was a significant change to my code

14:50:18 [ericP]

RobS: i think prov needs to go on to RDF. adding it to the QL will just hurt.

14:50:46 [DanC]

ack alberto

14:50:57 [ericP]

AndyS: [case where quad is repeated -- return twice?]

14:51:40 [AndyS]

That's when it is asked for a a triple, not with source

14:51:40 [ericP]

Alberto: in our impl, our source specifier may be a URI or a bnode

14:51:52 [SteveH]

q+

14:51:53 [ericP]

tx andy

14:51:53 [AndyS]

s/a a/as a/

14:52:04 [DaveB]

also could have in rdql's ?s constrained and usedf further in @semantics rdql

14:52:08 [ericP]

... when i bnode, it can be specified (not by name)

14:52:16 [ericP]

... useful for federation

14:52:40 [ericP]

... we want source ?s and restrict the sources

14:52:48 [rob]

q+

14:53:05 [DanC]

ack andys

14:53:05 [Zakim]

AndyS, you wanted to ask about inference across models

14:53:11 [ericP]

... we want to be able to restrict on the source

14:53:24 [ericP]

AndyS: want to know what happens with inferred triples.

14:53:30 [kendall]

zakim, mute me

14:53:30 [Zakim]

kendall should now be muted

14:53:43 [AndyS]

Q: What's the source of an inferred triple? Inferred from just one model? Across models? Both by different paths?

14:53:47 [DanC]

ack steve

14:54:02 [ericP]

SteveH: +1 to alberto -- seems to work well

14:54:04 [DanC]

ack rob

14:54:11 [ericP]

... [ restrict on source ]

14:54:18 [alberto]

alberto: SOURCE ?s should be an arbitrary resource - and be able to have other triple-patterns to query ?s with other properties

14:54:32 [ericP]

RobS: we attempted to build apps that do prov stuff

14:54:38 [ericP]

... reification looks promising

14:55:02 [DanC]

q+ to note recent work on reification in cwm

14:55:02 [ericP]

... OWL encodings of prov also [work?]

14:55:18 [DanC]

ack danc

14:55:18 [Zakim]

DanC, you wanted to note recent work on reification in cwm

14:55:19 [ericP]

... noone knows the answer yet. shouldn't be critical to the QL.

14:55:25 [kendall]

q+ to respond to rob

14:55:31 [kendall]

zakim, unmute me

14:55:31 [Zakim]

kendall should no longer be muted

14:55:31 [ericP]

DanC: cwm outputs proofs.

14:55:40 [ericP]

... doing so, it outputs quoted formulae

14:56:10 [DanC]

ACTION DanC: point to cwm reification/quoting tests

14:56:11 [ericP]

... we have an alternative for quoting formulae

14:56:31 [DanC]

on semantics/includes: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JulSep/0309.html

14:56:33 [SimonR]

I liked the suggestion in http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/2004/HPL-2004-57.html (

14:57:28 [SimonR]

Named Graphs, Provenance and Trust) about how to deal with a lot of this.

14:57:32 [ericP]

ACTION DanC: explain evolution of log:semantics/log:includes

14:57:34 [ericP]

DONE

14:57:39 [AndyS]

Is there any comparision of cwm formulae and Trix/named graphs?

14:58:02 [kendall]

q-

14:58:23 [ericP]

DaveB: i'll try again, allowing source in both results and restriction

14:58:43 [ericP]

DanC: would like test case on inferred triples. AndyS?

14:58:49 [ericP]

AndyS: will try

14:58:50 [Zakim]

-ChrisRYvette_Hoitink

14:59:02 [ericP]

DaveB: defn to include bnodes?

15:00:03 [FarrukhNajmi]

Apologies to all. Verizon is mucking with lines in my neighborhood and my internet and phone are very flaky.

15:00:30 [DaveB]

there were some support for me talking/adding bnodes for source uris

15:00:33 [ericP]

ACTION: DaveB to repropose source in both results and restrictions

15:00:37 [DaveB]

alberto said that, offered a use case, IIRC

15:00:49 [DanC]

Zakim, next agendum

15:00:49 [Zakim]

agendum 4. "Reporting b-nodes" taken up [from DanC]

15:00:54 [Zakim]

+ChrisR|Yvette_Hoitink

15:00:56 [ericP]

ACTIONL: AndyS to (try to) compose a test case on inferred triples

15:01:06 [alberto]

yes, I can think fo FOAF one at least - let me think more...

15:01:11 [SteveH]

SteveH

15:01:15 [ericP]

welcome back SteveH

15:01:20 [DanC]

Zakim, ChrisR|Yvette_Hoitink is SteveH

15:01:20 [Zakim]

sorry, DanC, I do not recognize a party named 'ChrisR|Yvette_Hoitink'

15:01:33 [FarrukhNajmi]

FarrukhNajmi has joined #dawg

15:01:42 [DanC]

. ACTION SimonR: write about the "returning bnodes from a query" issue.

15:01:42 [ericP]

Zakim, ChrisR|Yvette_Hoitink is ChrisR|Yvette_Hoitink|SteveH

15:01:42 [Zakim]

sorry, ericP, I do not recognize a party named 'ChrisR|Yvette_Hoitink'

15:02:09 [FarrukhNajmi]

Apologies to all for dropping in/out. Phone company messing with wires in my streetand internet and phone are dodgy today.

15:02:32 [DanC]

ACTION SimonR: write about the "returning bnodes from a query" issue. CONTINUES.

15:02:42 [DanC]

Zakim, next agendum

15:02:42 [Zakim]

agendum 5. "XQuery integration requirements/objective" taken up [from DanC]

15:03:15 [ericP]

ACTION SimonR: write a document discussing tradeoffs with adapting XQuery as an RDF query language for discussion thru the September meeting in Bristol. CONTINUES.

15:03:40 [DanC]

Zakim, who's on the phone?

15:03:40 [Zakim]

On the phone I see ChrisRYvette_Hoitink, DaveB, Farrukh_Najmi, JanneS, HowardK, RobS, AndyS, DanC, Enrico (muted), EricP, SimonR, TomAdams, AlbertoR, Farrukh_Najmi.a, kendall, JosD

15:03:44 [kendall]

ah, too bad, Simon :>

15:04:39 [DanC]

Zakim, take up agendum 8

15:04:39 [Zakim]

agendum 8. "BP review of UC&R" taken up [from TomA via DanC]

15:05:02 [ericP]

DanC: i asked BP about XQuery

15:05:24 [ericP]

TomA: noone had more comments to add

15:05:58 [ericP]

... hopefully more discussion this week. will get back to DAWG with results.

15:06:21 [DanC]

# RDF Data Access, XQuery, rules Dan Connolly (Monday, 16 August) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2004Aug/0004.html

15:07:16 [DanC]

Zakim, close this agendum

15:07:16 [Zakim]

agendum 8 closed

15:07:17 [Zakim]

I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

15:07:18 [Zakim]

5. XQuery integration requirements/objective [from DanC]

15:07:20 [ericP]

TomA: should see interest from Dave ??? (co-chair)

15:07:40 [ericP]

... BP group is about a bunch of task forces

15:08:06 [DaveB]

David Wood

15:08:10 [ericP]

tx

15:08:12 [DanC]

Zakim, close agendum 5

15:08:12 [Zakim]

agendum 5 closed

15:08:13 [Zakim]

I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

15:08:14 [Zakim]

6. WG meeting schedule [from DanC]

15:08:23 [DanC]

Zakim, next agendum

15:08:23 [Zakim]

agendum 6. "WG meeting schedule" taken up [from DanC]

15:09:49 [ericP]

ACTION EricP: find out the schedule of the 2005 W3C tech plenary and inform the WG so that we can plan ftf meetings after September. WITHDRAWN.

15:10:29 [DanC]

action -8

15:10:45 [DanC]

RobS: I'm still offering to host, say, in Jan.

15:10:52 [ericP]

Kendall and SteveH: further from the beginning of month is better

15:10:59 [ericP]

AndyS: no 6-7

15:11:27 [Yoshio]

later than 7, please

15:11:33 [ericP]

All Jan is good for me.

15:12:04 [TomAdams]

All Jan is fine for me also, after the first week would be fine.

15:12:07 [ericP]

agenda?

15:13:44 [Yoshio]

* Hmm, I don't see what's going on...

15:14:38 [ericP]

Yoshio, when does Japan go on daylight (or nightlight) savings time?

15:15:07 [Yoshio]

There's no such time in Japan. we only have one time system throughout the year.

15:15:14 [AndyS]

14:30Z or 15:30Z is OK for me

15:15:24 [ericP]

hmm, my wmtz is confused

15:15:34 [kendall]

i hate discussions pertaining to time zones!

15:15:54 [ericP]

i guess maintain curernt Z time is best for Japan and Australia

15:15:56 [Yoshio]

I don't want the meeting to shift later than now

15:15:56 [SimonR]

All of Jan is fine for me (tentatively), except 13-17th.

15:16:36 [ericP]

AndyS: I will be at xmlopen.org and that will restrict my editing abilities

15:17:02 [ericP]

... am keen on doing publish early anyways

15:17:20 [ericP]

... might have a draft of slides before talk.

15:18:05 [ericP]

ACTION: AndyS to show xmlopen slides to DAWG one or two days in advance

15:19:02 [DanC]

. http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35463/DAWGf2f3/

15:19:56 [rob]

refresh the results...

15:20:11 [DanC]

please fill it out EVEN if YOU'RE NOT COMING!

15:20:40 [DaveB]

I will attend ... July 2004

15:21:20 [DanC]

Zakim, next agendum

15:21:20 [Zakim]

agendum 7. "Use Cases & Requirements done?" taken up [from DanC]

15:21:44 [DaveB]

simon's http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JulSep/0304.html

15:22:05 [ericP]

brownie points for DamC, KendallC, AndyS, SteveH, YoshioF, Janne, SimonR, DaveB, RobS

15:23:25 [ericP]

Kendall: [re union query] will add a paragraph of explanation

15:23:34 [DanC]

this is to replace http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/UseCases#d4.5

15:23:43 [DanC]

$Revision: 1.134 $ of $Date: 2004/08/03 20:46:48 $

15:23:47 [DanC]

yes?

15:24:26 [ericP]

SimonR: my proposal it to replace 4.5

15:24:59 [ericP]

... you get to easily meet three other reqs/goals

15:25:20 [ericP]

Kendall: i'd be happy to make 4.5.1 4.5 and add Simon's explanatory paragraph

15:26:06 [ericP]

lol

15:26:24 [alberto]

q+

15:26:43 [ericP]

SimonR: there's some scarey stuff in there so i'm happy to discuss it.

15:26:47 [ericP]

q?

15:27:21 [ericP]

RobS: response to req -- understand but don't like it.

15:27:26 [ericP]

... will write response.

15:28:08 [ericP]

ACTION: RobS to write response to Simon's union query

15:28:52 [ericP]

DanC: would be nice if next week, the WG can vote on Kendall's best guess

15:29:00 [rob]

What schools?

15:29:03 [alberto]

q- can discuss another time about FROM vs. SOURCE into BRQL

15:29:11 [alberto]

q-

15:29:32 [ericP]

ACTION: JimH, to work with Bijan to do some sort of UDDI/Web services use cases. CONTINUES.

15:31:02 [DanC]

2.12 Browsing Patient Records (Health Care) http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/UseCases#u2.12

15:31:48 [DanC]

ACTION RobS: re-play comments on 2.12 Browsing Patient Records for the WG

15:32:12 [ericP]

ACTION: RobS write email to Farrukh about traversing a taxonomy. DONE.

15:32:57 [ericP]

ACTION Simon+Kendall elaborate the rel. of rules and "construct" in the UC&R doc. CONTINUES.

15:33:21 [DaveB]

alberto: earlier you offerered info about a bnode source use case, can you send something? I think I grok what you want, but an example helps. thanks

15:34:23 [ericP]

DanC: likely we'll have another publication of the UC&R

15:34:33 [alberto]

ACTION: Alberto tries to write a UC for bNodes in the SOURCE field

15:34:50 [rob]

can I sign off on my action item already?

15:35:11 [ericP]

might be worth seeing the fallout

15:35:26 [DanC]

Rob's done. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JulSep/0311.html

15:35:37 [DanC]

Zakim, close this agendum

15:35:37 [Zakim]

agendum 7 closed

15:35:38 [Zakim]

I see nothing remaining on the agenda

15:35:54 [DanC]

ADJOURN.

15:36:05 [DanC]

RRSAgent, make logs world-access

15:36:06 [Zakim]

-DaveB

15:36:11 [Zakim]

-JosD

15:36:12 [Zakim]

-AlbertoR

15:36:14 [Zakim]

-JanneS

15:36:18 [Zakim]

-kendall

15:36:19 [Zakim]

-ChrisRYvette_Hoitink

15:36:21 [Zakim]

-Enrico

15:36:27 [alberto]

alberto has left #dawg

15:36:42 [Yoshio]

Bye ... hoping to join the conversation next time

15:36:47 [EnricoF]

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15:36:50 [Yoshio]

Yoshio has left #dawg

15:36:52 [EnricoF]

EnricoF has joined #dawg

15:36:57 [EnricoF]

EnricoF has left #dawg

15:36:58 [DanC]

ericp, anything else you need to produce a record in the next day or 2?

15:37:11 [TomAdams]

Try this: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meeting.html

15:37:28 [ericP]

danc, i think i'm cool

15:37:32 [Zakim]

-DanC

15:38:17 [Zakim]

-EricP

15:38:21 [Zakim]

-TomAdams

15:41:16 [DaveB]

DaveB has joined #dawg

15:42:34 [Zakim]

-HowardK

15:42:35 [Zakim]

-RobS

15:42:37 [Zakim]

-SimonR

15:42:43 [Zakim]

-AndyS

17:33:39 [DanC_]

DanC_ has left #dawg

18:11:52 [DaveB]

DaveB has joined #dawg

18:26:32 [Zakim]

-Farrukh_Najmi

18:31:32 [Zakim]

disconnecting the lone participant, Farrukh_Najmi.a, in SW_DAWG()10:30AM

18:31:34 [Zakim]

SW_DAWG()10:30AM has ended

18:31:36 [Zakim]

Attendees were Farrukh_Najmi, DaveB, JanneS, HowardK, RobS, AndyS, ChrisR|Yvette_Hoitink, DanC, kendall, +39.047.aabb, EricP, Enrico, [Tucana], TomAdams, SimonR, +46.3.17.40.aacc,

18:31:38 [Zakim]

... AlbertoR, JosD

19:00:35 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #dawg