IRC log of wai-wcag on 2004-08-18
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 14:02:29 [RRSAgent]
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- 14:02:35 [Michael]
- rrsagent, make logs world
- 14:03:02 [JimT]
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- 14:03:09 [Zakim]
- +[Microsoft]
- 14:03:31 [Michael]
- zakim, [Microsoft] is temporarily Jenae_Andershonis
- 14:03:31 [Zakim]
- +Jenae_Andershonis; got it
- 14:03:37 [donaldfevans]
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- 14:03:56 [Michael]
- zakim, who's here
- 14:03:57 [Zakim]
- Michael, you need to end that query with '?'
- 14:04:00 [Michael]
- zakim, who's here?
- 14:04:00 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Jim_Thatcher, ??P3, ??P4, Becky_Gibson, Sailesh_Panchang, Michael_Cooper, Ben, Don_Evans, Jenae_Andershonis
- 14:04:02 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see JimT, RRSAgent, bcaldwell, Becky, wendy, ChrisR, Zakim, Michael, sh1mmer
- 14:05:08 [Michael]
- zakim, ??P3 might be David_MacDonald
- 14:05:08 [Zakim]
- I don't understand '??P3 might be David_MacDonald', Michael
- 14:05:12 [donaldfevans]
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- 14:05:19 [Michael]
- zakim, ??P3 is David_MacDonald?
- 14:05:19 [Zakim]
- +David_MacDonald?; got it
- 14:06:39 [donaldfevans]
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- 14:06:42 [Michael]
- zakim, ??P4 is Chris_Ridpath?
- 14:06:42 [Zakim]
- +Chris_Ridpath?; got it
- 14:06:49 [donaldfevans]
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- 14:07:09 [donaldfevans]
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- 14:07:14 [David_MacDonald]
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- 14:07:30 [bcaldwell]
- scribe: Ben
- 14:07:59 [bcaldwell]
- sp - issues w/ guideline 2.4 - facilitate ability to orient and move w/ in content
- 14:08:08 [donaldfevans]
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- 14:08:11 [bcaldwell]
- need to reorganize and distinguish between level 2 and 3
- 14:08:20 [Zakim]
- +??P14
- 14:08:25 [bcaldwell]
- titles for page and titles for frames need to be differentiated
- 14:08:37 [bcaldwell]
- title of other elements would remain level 3 items
- 14:08:53 [bcaldwell]
- also, no HTML techniques for many of the SC in 2.4
- 14:09:02 [donaldfevans]
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- 14:09:17 [bcaldwell]
- ex. table markup enables navigation w/in content
- 14:09:59 [bcaldwell]
- also, no technique related to structure: ex. identify what the structure should be for various components of the content
- 14:10:22 [Michael]
- zakim, ??P14 is Lisa_Seeman
- 14:10:22 [Zakim]
- +Lisa_Seeman; got it
- 14:10:55 [donaldfevans]
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- 14:11:47 [bcaldwell]
- action: Sailesh to write up 2.4 issues and make proposals on list
- 14:12:18 [ChrisR]
- Proposed format for test case: http://tile-cridpath.atrc.utoronto.ca/acheck/servlet/ShowCheck?check=1&wcag=true
- 14:12:20 [bcaldwell]
- agenda - format of test cases
- 14:13:59 [donaldfevans]
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- 14:15:45 [Zakim]
- +Wendy
- 14:15:51 [bcaldwell]
- at this point, no common format for test suites
- 14:15:57 [bcaldwell]
- there are over 50 in w3c
- 14:16:16 [bcaldwell]
- settled on this format becuse it seemed easy to understand, simple and straightforward for people to use
- 14:16:49 [bcaldwell]
- process needed for submitting tests and reviewing them
- 14:18:32 [Michael]
- q+ to ask tests tied to guideline instead of success criterion?
- 14:19:18 [bcaldwell]
- ? how detailed should this be?
- 14:19:37 [bcaldwell]
- target audience would be for the avg. person creating content
- 14:19:54 [bcaldwell]
- action: chris to work on examples with varying levels of detail
- 14:20:30 [Michael]
- ack lisa
- 14:20:51 [wendy]
- q+ to ask "i like that more detailed than uaag, but how coord w/uaag? not just a wcag test suite, should be a shared wai resource"
- 14:21:34 [bcaldwell]
- what happens when tests are not applicable?
- 14:22:39 [bcaldwell]
- how do we handle exceptions?
- 14:24:29 [bcaldwell]
- need to create layers of detail?
- 14:26:46 [bcaldwell]
- ja- this mockup focuses on what a test case might look like
- 14:27:28 [bcaldwell]
- to prevent cases where test cases are rarely applicable, we will need a process for determining that they are doing what they were intended to do
- 14:27:57 [bcaldwell]
- layers of information may be built into multiple tests
- 14:28:32 [bcaldwell]
- so links to other tests and the way they flow allows users to move through the information and get additional detail
- 14:31:30 [bcaldwell]
- test files should make it clear whether it is a test for a technique or a test for a guideline/criterion
- 14:31:40 [Michael]
- ack michael
- 14:31:40 [Zakim]
- Michael_Cooper, you wanted to ask tests tied to guideline instead of success criterion?
- 14:31:59 [bcaldwell]
- q+
- 14:32:04 [wendy]
- ack wendy
- 14:32:04 [Zakim]
- wendy, you wanted to ask "i like that more detailed than uaag, but how coord w/uaag? not just a wcag test suite, should be a shared wai resource"
- 14:32:36 [bcaldwell]
- not just a WCAG test suite, but a WAI resource for testing
- 14:33:03 [bcaldwell]
- have other WAI groups seen this yet?
- 14:33:14 [bcaldwell]
- not yet
- 14:33:35 [bcaldwell]
- next steps?
- 14:33:52 [bcaldwell]
- cr - would like to go public soon to get more feedback
- 14:35:20 [Michael]
- action: Wendy, Chris deal with format of test cases re W3C process
- 14:35:31 [wendy]
- action 3= wendy and chris talk about process (either move this document to w3c space or remove w3c logo and copyright since not on w3c site)
- 14:35:37 [bcaldwell]
- priority of level 1? what does that mean?
- 14:36:29 [wendy]
- bc tests for criteria or techniques? haven't decided which techniques were sufficient. is there a different scale here? 1-to-1 relationship to criteria?
- 14:36:33 [Michael]
- action: Chris, Jenae take test suite proposal (modified from today's discussion) out to other people in WAI working on test suites
- 14:36:55 [Michael]
- ack ben
- 14:37:00 [Michael]
- ack bcaldwell
- 14:37:10 [wendy]
- cr if checking level 1 conformance, could ignore level 2 and 3
- 14:37:30 [wendy]
- cr are you saying we should take out the level thing?
- 14:37:45 [wendy]
- bc there may be 2 scales. if the tests are specificly about techniques, may be cases where there is not level.
- 14:37:52 [wendy]
- bc it might be an optional technique.
- 14:38:29 [wendy]
- cr every test will need a level.
- 14:39:24 [wendy]
- bc say we have a technique for accesskey. it gets associated with guideline 2.4
- 14:39:34 [wendy]
- bc with the user agent issues, we are not requiring that people implement that technique.
- 14:39:59 [wendy]
- bc you could have a test case to determine that accesskey has been used, but how do you assign it a priority or level if it getting implemented doesn't effect conformance.
- 14:40:12 [wendy]
- cr the test suite is designed for people who want to check conformance to the guideliens.
- 14:40:24 [wendy]
- cr if something is an optional techqniue, there will not be a test case for it.
- 14:40:50 [wendy]
- ja test cases for conformance should be our first priority.
- 14:40:52 [wendy]
- cr there is enough work to do just with doing those that are required.
- 14:41:05 [wendy]
- ja we could use status for that. status could be "optional"
- 14:41:16 [wendy]
- q?
- 14:41:30 [wendy]
- ack jenae
- 14:41:51 [wendy]
- ja re: a WAI test suite, the UA group don't review all of their test cases.
- 14:41:58 [wendy]
- ja we shouldn't let that slow us down.
- 14:42:06 [wendy]
- ja they don't have a process for approving them.
- 14:42:52 [Michael]
- q+ to say part of the coordination w/ other groups should be to develop an approval process
- 14:42:57 [Michael]
- ack sailesh
- 14:43:13 [wendy]
- sp there might be more than one success criteria that relates to a technique.
- 14:43:31 [wendy]
- sp cr said "w/every test case need a level associated withit" not sure i agree.
- 14:43:50 [wendy]
- sp if i'm going to conform to level AA, then I need to look at those checks for level 1 and 2.
- 14:44:10 [wendy]
- sp levels should be associated with success criteria
- 14:44:31 [donaldfevans]
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- 14:45:16 [wendy]
- cr the test suite is designed to check conformance to the guidelines. the techniques are for people who are writing their content and want to make it accessible.
- 14:45:26 [wendy]
- cr if you follow the techniques, you should pass the test suite.
- 14:46:02 [wendy]
- ack Lisa
- 14:46:16 [bcaldwell]
- zakim, Chris_Ridpath is David_MacD
- 14:46:16 [Zakim]
- +David_MacD; got it
- 14:46:25 [wendy]
- ls i am concerned about how the test suite will be used.
- 14:46:37 [bcaldwell]
- zakim, who is on the phone?
- 14:46:37 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Jim_Thatcher, David_MacDonald?, David_MacD, Becky_Gibson, Sailesh_Panchang, Michael_Cooper, Ben, Don_Evans, Jenae_Andershonis, Lisa_Seeman, Wendy
- 14:46:39 [wendy]
- ls it is important to understand why you are doing what you are doing.
- 14:46:52 [bcaldwell]
- zakim, David_MacDonald is Chris_Ridpath
- 14:46:52 [Zakim]
- +Chris_Ridpath; got it
- 14:47:17 [wendy]
- ls don't want to limit creativity of people who want to go the extra mile to make something accessible.
- 14:47:22 [bcaldwell]
- q+
- 14:47:44 [wendy]
- ls thus, i suggested having a ranking/percentage of how many people agree with a technique.
- 14:48:26 [wendy]
- ls how do we maintain the creativity of the author to promote accessibility? how promote real testing with assistive technologies?
- 14:48:42 [wendy]
- ack Chris
- 14:49:25 [wendy]
- dmd relation between test suite/guideline: (i think gv's perspective is that) the test suite relates to the guidelines, although this is an html-specific test.
- 14:49:38 [wendy]
- dmd how can we have a test relate to a guideline when guidelines are tech-indie
- 14:49:45 [wendy]
- dmd go back to the group?
- 14:50:21 [wendy]
- dmd can we really do test suites for non-tech-specific requirements?
- 14:50:26 [wendy]
- ack bcaldwell
- 14:50:46 [wendy]
- bc don't see how a test suite can directly test the guidelines. don't think that is gv's perspective.
- 14:51:08 [wendy]
- ack michael
- 14:51:08 [Zakim]
- Michael_Cooper, you wanted to say part of the coordination w/ other groups should be to develop an approval process
- 14:51:37 [wendy]
- cr it can be specific to the guidelines, doesn't have to be derived from anything.
- 14:51:45 [wendy]
- cr you are writing a web page, want to conform, what do you do?
- 14:51:55 [wendy]
- cr if you don't have the test suite, how can you tell if you conform or not?
- 14:52:03 [wendy]
- bc that's what the checklists are for?
- 14:52:09 [wendy]
- cr isn't this the same as the checklists?
- 14:52:13 [wendy]
- ls don't think so
- 14:52:48 [Zakim]
- -Lisa_Seeman
- 14:52:54 [wendy]
- sp for wcag 1.0, have aert. ithas tests.
- 14:52:59 [wendy]
- sp for every checkpoint there are test files
- 14:53:27 [wendy]
- q+ wendy to talk about evolution of aert (if chris doesn't)
- 14:53:39 [wendy]
- cr this is an elaboration of aert. it is more detailed, more specific, more clear.
- 14:53:46 [bcaldwell]
- q+ to say, "what are advantages and disadvantages about formatlity of this. UAAG suites seem very informal - is that a more realistic direction to go given resources?"
- 14:53:54 [wendy]
- cr to address creativity, the creative part is still there but we need to agree on the specifics.
- 14:54:20 [wendy]
- cr 25 words vs 150 characters. have heard 60 characters. what the test files will do is help people agree on what is too long.
- 14:54:32 [wendy]
- ack jenae
- 14:54:57 [wendy]
- ja do we have an example of a checklist? i don't think checklist and test case do the same thing, but can't tell until i look at one.
- 14:55:29 [wendy]
- ack wendy
- 14:55:29 [Zakim]
- wendy, you wanted to talk about evolution of aert (if chris doesn't)
- 14:59:19 [wendy]
- seems that sp liked aert because it gives an overview of what is needed.
- 14:59:26 [wendy]
- wac thinks that is the role of the checklist
- 14:59:40 [wendy]
- bc role of test suite resource to determine if the techniques you are trying to apply have been applied correctly.
- 14:59:55 [wendy]
- bc separating what has to be done vs what doesn't would be in checklist. how to do correctly, in test suite.
- 15:00:16 [wendy]
- cr in the test process (this document) at the pass instructions, it lists other tests that are related.
- 15:00:51 [wendy]
- cr re: test suite being derived from techniques?
- 15:01:01 [wendy]
- bc yes, can't imagine tests that test the guidelines.
- 15:01:08 [wendy]
- bc guidelines are too abstract.
- 15:01:25 [wendy]
- bc checklists can define a way to conform to the guidelines.
- 15:01:32 [wendy]
- bc "these techs are required for a given success criteria"
- 15:01:41 [wendy]
- bc that brings you to the technology level
- 15:01:54 [wendy]
- bc part of providing text equiv is to provide alt on img
- 15:02:03 [wendy]
- bc checklist can say that. the test suite support the need to do that.
- 15:02:16 [wendy]
- ack bcaldwell
- 15:02:16 [Zakim]
- bcaldwell, you wanted to say, "what are advantages and disadvantages about formatlity of this. UAAG suites seem very informal - is that a more realistic direction to go given
- 15:02:19 [Zakim]
- ... resources?"
- 15:02:21 [David_MacDonald]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004AprJun/0272.html
- 15:02:33 [wendy]
- bc what are advantages and disadvantages about formatlity of this. UAAG suites seem very informal - is that a more realistic direction to go given resources?
- 15:03:24 [wendy]
- q+ to ask, "what does qa recommend about formality?"
- 15:03:54 [wendy]
- cr thought uaag was prescriptive
- 15:03:55 [wendy]
- ack david
- 15:04:18 [wendy]
- dmd found mail in archives, it was checklists that come off of guideliens not test suite.
- 15:04:27 [wendy]
- dmd that draws distintion between checklist and test suite
- 15:04:42 [wendy]
- dmd feel we should draw test suites from techniques documents
- 15:04:49 [wendy]
- cr link to old checklist?
- 15:04:51 [wendy]
- ack wendy
- 15:04:51 [Zakim]
- wendy, you wanted to ask, "what does qa recommend about formality?"
- 15:05:30 [wendy]
- what does qa recommend about formality?
- 15:06:36 [bcaldwell]
- (really) old checklist drafts: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2004/05/checklists/
- 15:10:10 [Michael]
- ack jenae
- 15:10:30 [wendy]
- ja if test cases are not reviewed, will be useless
- 15:11:04 [wendy]
- bc want to separate the two
- 15:11:09 [wendy]
- wac please explain
- 15:13:16 [wendy]
- bc can the test suite be a tool to determine conformance?
- 15:13:47 [wendy]
- bc conformance is achieve through implementing techniques. the test suite information seems to exist to say "how do you do that? did you do that?"
- 15:14:04 [wendy]
- bc if it should also include a flow...a process...think there will be too many dependencies.
- 15:14:14 [wendy]
- bc may be tests that will apply in some cases, not in others.
- 15:14:20 [wendy]
- bc perhaps biting off more than we can chew
- 15:14:28 [wendy]
- bc if determining conformance is a part of it.
- 15:15:04 [wendy]
- cr test suite should include all that we know about making things accessible. those will be tested for.
- 15:15:11 [wendy]
- cr if there are other things, they won't be in here.
- 15:15:23 [wendy]
- bc does that mean that a lot of info will be lost?
- 15:15:41 [wendy]
- bc do not think we can come to consensus on character lenght for alt-text.
- 15:15:58 [wendy]
- bc it could help people raise flags, but it will not be a definitive test for accessibility.
- 15:16:18 [wendy]
- cr think we can reach consensus on those.
- 15:18:38 [wendy]
- wac difference between how to use elements/attributes together (how to follow a spec) vs what is the value of an element or attribute.
- 15:19:07 [wendy]
- cr if 150 chars is ok, then ok.
- 15:19:13 [wendy]
- mc how would that be in the test case?
- 15:19:20 [wendy]
- mc action on failure needs to say...
- 15:19:26 [wendy]
- cr you've looked at the alt-text and it is ok for the image
- 15:19:39 [wendy]
- q?
- 15:19:41 [wendy]
- ack david
- 15:19:52 [wendy]
- dmd looking at the checklist and test suite proposal.
- 15:19:56 [wendy]
- dmd i see a lot of overlap
- 15:20:09 [wendy]
- dmd the checklist has guideline, success criteria, techniques and then we're into techniques
- 15:20:37 [wendy]
- dmd there is redundancy. if we write one, will it write the other?
- 15:20:40 [Michael]
- brb
- 15:20:59 [wendy]
- dmd seems to me that the checks are tech-specific. assume a checklist for each technology.
- 15:21:12 [wendy]
- dmd the only diff is a checkbox that says true whereas in test suite there are instructions.
- 15:21:46 [wendy]
- cr see the checklist being the same as the test suite.
- 15:21:53 [wendy]
- cr different views of the same content.
- 15:22:02 [wendy]
- ja checklists don't tell you how
- 15:22:13 [wendy]
- dmd isn't that techniques?
- 15:23:24 [Michael]
- back
- 15:24:23 [wendy]
- wac checklist is overview/memory jogger, test suite describes how to test, techniques describe what to do
- 15:24:36 [wendy]
- cr is the checklist the same as the procedure in the test suite?
- 15:24:50 [wendy]
- e.g., "check for presence of alt attribute on img element"
- 15:25:33 [wendy]
- mc or expected result?
- 15:29:27 [Zakim]
- -Jim_Thatcher
- 15:29:44 [wendy]
- discussion about relationship between checklists, test suites, and techniques.
- 15:33:02 [wendy]
- action: ben and chris work on mock-up of checklist
- 15:36:32 [wendy]
- wac go to uaag first, b/c if can go to larger group and say "here's what uaag and we agree to use" a better sell and hopefully prevents fragmentation.
- 15:36:56 [wendy]
- mc pick up discussion on test files and checklists
- 15:38:37 [wendy]
- checklists either this week or next (more likely week of 30th b/c ben going on vaction). also have gateway to discuss next week.
- 15:39:12 [wendy]
- sp confidence and links to other tests. perhaps a grouping mechanism?
- 15:39:15 [wendy]
- cr that might be role of checklist
- 15:41:19 [wendy]
- next week: gateway, report from uaag discussion, more test files.
- 15:41:30 [wendy]
- week of 30th: checklist, more test files, more gateway, html and css?
- 15:41:42 [Zakim]
- -Sailesh_Panchang
- 15:41:45 [wendy]
- try to get test files/test suite on thurdsayds' 26 august
- 15:52:30 [wendy]
- Topic: bugzilla tutorial
- 16:16:10 [Zakim]
- -Jenae_Andershonis
- 16:16:11 [Zakim]
- -Wendy
- 16:16:12 [Zakim]
- -Don_Evans
- 16:16:12 [Zakim]
- -Becky_Gibson
- 16:16:13 [Zakim]
- -Ben
- 16:16:14 [Zakim]
- -Chris_Ridpath
- 16:16:15 [Zakim]
- -David_MacD
- 16:16:16 [Zakim]
- -Michael_Cooper
- 16:16:17 [Zakim]
- WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended
- 16:16:19 [Zakim]
- Attendees were Jim_Thatcher, Becky_Gibson, +1.703.391.aaaa, Michael_Cooper, Sailesh_Panchang, Ben, Don_Evans, Jenae_Andershonis, David_MacDonald?, Chris_Ridpath?, Lisa_Seeman,
- 16:16:22 [Zakim]
- ... Wendy, David_MacD, Chris_Ridpath
- 16:31:25 [wendy]
- zakim, bye
- 16:31:25 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #wai-wcag
- 16:31:31 [wendy]
- RRSAgent, bye
- 16:31:31 [RRSAgent]
- I see 5 open action items:
- 16:31:31 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Sailesh to write up 2.4 issues and make proposals on list [1]
- 16:31:31 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/08/18-wai-wcag-irc#T14-11-47
- 16:31:31 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: chris to work on examples with varying levels of detail [2]
- 16:31:31 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/08/18-wai-wcag-irc#T14-19-54
- 16:31:31 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: wendy and chris talk about process (either move this document to w3c space or remove w3c logo and copyright since not on w3c site) [3]
- 16:31:31 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/08/18-wai-wcag-irc#T14-35-20
- 16:31:31 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Chris, Jenae take test suite proposal (modified from today's discussion) out to other people in WAI working on test suites [4]
- 16:31:31 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/08/18-wai-wcag-irc#T14-36-33
- 16:31:31 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: ben and chris work on mock-up of checklist [5]
- 16:31:31 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/08/18-wai-wcag-irc#T15-33-02