IRC log of wai-wcag on 2004-08-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:00:36 [RRSAgent]

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14:01:25 [ChrisR]

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14:01:34 [wendy]

zakim, this is WAI_WCAG

14:01:34 [Zakim]

ok, wendy; that matches WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM

14:01:41 [wendy]

zakim, who is on the phone?

14:01:41 [Zakim]

On the phone I see ??P0, [Microsoft], Becky_Gibson, Wendy, Alex_Lee

14:01:50 [wendy]

zakim, ??P0 is David_MacDondald

14:01:50 [Zakim]

+David_MacDondald; got it

14:01:59 [wendy]

zakim, [Microsoft] is Jenae

14:01:59 [Zakim]

+Jenae; got it

14:02:05 [bcaldwell]

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14:02:10 [Zakim]

+Chris_Ridpath

14:02:20 [Zakim]

+Sailesh_Panchang

14:02:33 [Zakim]

+Michael_Cooper

14:02:46 [Zakim]

+??P11

14:03:13 [wendy]

zakim, ??P11 is Ben_Caldwell

14:03:13 [Zakim]

+Ben_Caldwell; got it

14:04:49 [Zakim]

+??P12

14:06:00 [wendy]

zakim, ??P12 is Lisa_Seeman

14:06:00 [Zakim]

+Lisa_Seeman; got it

14:06:10 [wendy]

zakim, who's on the phone?

14:06:10 [Zakim]

On the phone I see David_MacDondald, Jenae, Becky_Gibson, Wendy, Alex_Lee, Chris_Ridpath, Sailesh_Panchang, Michael_Cooper, Ben_Caldwell, Lisa_Seeman

14:07:02 [Zakim]

+Richard

14:07:07 [wendy]

Meeting: WCAG WG Techniques Task Force

14:07:13 [wendy]

Chair: Michael Cooper

14:07:30 [r12a]

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14:07:40 [wendy]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0363.html

14:08:13 [wendy]

Topic: test cases

14:08:29 [wendy]

cr i've been working on test cases for checking conformance. talked with jon gunderson.

14:08:39 [wendy]

cr jenae and i are joining the uawg call tomorrow.

14:08:49 [wendy]

cr heard from tim boland about our test cases and how to improve them.

14:08:58 [wendy]

cr after talk with uawg have a clearer idea.

14:09:07 [wendy]

cr next week can publish some closer to finished documents.

14:09:22 [wendy]

cr (the format of the test case)

14:09:24 [wendy]

cr a proposed draft

14:09:38 [wendy]

mc include the xml format as well as all the metadata?

14:09:44 [wendy]

cr yes: html doc and xml format

14:10:49 [wendy]

bg where do we look for test cases? chris' site?

14:11:07 [wendy]

mc could look at uaag site. also at chris'

14:12:09 [wendy]

cr my site is open and anyone can contribute. trying to promote idea of common set of accessibility checks.

14:12:45 [wendy]

cr i looked at a number of w3c test suites. they are all different.

14:12:57 [wendy]

cr the test suites i liked best were uaag, because they are the clearest

14:13:07 [Zakim]

-Richard

14:13:34 [wendy]

sp the old AERT has a few test cases

14:14:31 [Zakim]

+Richard

14:15:38 [wendy]

http://www.w3.org/QA/TheMatrix

14:15:44 [r12a]

i got cut off, so i don't know whether the CSS test guidelines were mentioned

14:15:53 [r12a]

as a good example

14:16:18 [wendy]

do you have a uri? we've looked at some css test suite materials.

14:16:22 [David_MacDonald]

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14:16:31 [wendy]

Topic: end-to-end mappings

14:17:13 [wendy]

ja in examples, do short equivalent and short label mean the same thing? if so, use one term?

14:17:25 [wendy]

bc using "alternative" instead of "equivalent" anyway

14:19:18 [r12a]

zakim, mute ishida

14:19:18 [Zakim]

sorry, r12a, I do not see a party named 'ishida'

14:19:27 [r12a]

zakim, mute richard

14:19:27 [Zakim]

Richard should now be muted

14:21:20 [wendy]

action: wendy add issues related to gateway and guidelines to bugzilla

14:21:44 [wendy]

action 1 = jenae add issues related to gateway and guidelines to bugzilla

14:21:59 [wendy]

action: jenae add issues related to html techniques and multimedia to bugzilla

14:22:25 [wendy]

2.4

14:22:36 [wendy]

sp haven't gotten to test cases, but success criteria and guideline.

14:23:01 [wendy]

sp difficult to have one-to-one mapping between html techniques and success criteria

14:23:44 [wendy]

sp lots of content is read in a chunk and am unsure what the mapping is between tech-indie and html-specific.

14:23:56 [wendy]

bg is there an easier way to have it read to you?

14:24:08 [wendy]

bg even for sighted, hard to follow since it's in a table

14:24:16 [wendy]

bg better way to group the info?

14:24:59 [wendy]

sp the way the guidelines are written (with headings), perhaps nest information

14:25:10 [wendy]

bg if add another column for testing, that will make it even more confusing

14:25:20 [wendy]

dmd headings at each column?

14:25:33 [wendy]

sp yes, but it reads chunks. all techniques are read together.

14:25:42 [wendy]

bg all of those usually go with that success criteria

14:26:13 [wendy]

dmd what if there is a corresponding css techniques?

14:26:34 [wendy]

s/dmd/sp

14:29:13 [wendy]

dmd the mapping is not between css and html it's all of the pieces associated with a success criteria

14:29:31 [wendy]

action: wac and sp look at structure and presentation of the mapping table

14:29:47 [wendy]

sp on what basis are we saying 50,000 words?

14:30:13 [wendy]

sp even a small page, there is hierarchical markup that is helpful.

14:30:31 [wendy]

bc there are 40 open issues with that guideline, including that one.

14:30:56 [wendy]

sp level 2 success criteria, a point about logical tab order, the issue said, "this might not be testable."

14:31:22 [wendy]

sp perhaps move to level 3?

14:31:28 [wendy]

wac level 3 is testable as well

14:32:05 [wendy]

sp move because it is an assertion, similar to the others in level 3

14:32:35 [wendy]

sp at level 3, only mentions paragraphs. doesn't mention lists or data tables

14:33:52 [Zakim]

+Don_Evans

14:34:25 [donaldfevans]

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14:35:06 [wendy]

action: sp look at issues in bugzilla and coordinate with yvette on guidelines summary

14:36:56 [wendy]

mc is there a need to discuss existing test suites on this call?

14:37:18 [wendy]

ja do we need to have a formal review process to look at each test case and approve it?

14:37:27 [wendy]

cr yes, think we do need that formal process.

14:37:46 [wendy]

ja best thing, start going through today.

14:42:07 [wendy]

action: ben add product to bugzilla for test suite

14:43:01 [wendy]

http://www.w3.org/2004/02/Process-20040205/policies.html#Policies

14:43:23 [wendy]

action: cr read process doc, if have questions talk w/wendy

14:43:58 [wendy]

action: bc, cr, ja set up bugzilla with components

14:44:30 [Zakim]

-Richard

14:44:39 [r12a]

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14:44:43 [wendy]

dmd the layout of the end-to-ends is pretty well done. only a few that haven't been compelted: 4.1, 4.2, 2.5

14:45:06 [wendy]

dmd would need to get latest draft.

14:46:17 [wendy]

wac latest only has guideline 1.1

14:46:40 [wendy]

dmd biggest problems found were in the gateway

14:47:36 [donaldfevans]

brb

14:47:54 [wendy]

bg i've updated 3.1 but haven't published it yet.

14:48:07 [wendy]

bg took an action item last week to send issues to the mailing list

14:48:27 [wendy]

bg js raised an issue with meaning and pronunciation last week. didn't see bugzilla related to that.

14:48:45 [wendy]

bg someone else was doing 3.2

14:49:15 [wendy]

bg tim was going to add the test cases.

14:49:42 [wendy]

action items from last week: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0320.html

14:50:07 [wendy]

dmd start looking at tables and decide if we are covering guidelines well w/techniques or are there holes?

14:50:25 [wendy]

wac what are we waiting for? test cases?

14:50:43 [wendy]

dmd not sure what the relationship is (of test cases) to the end-to-ends.

14:50:54 [wendy]

mc test cases are an extension to the end-to-ends

14:51:15 [wendy]

mc helping us get a whole picture of the entire chain from principle down to test case

14:53:36 [Michael]

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14:53:38 [wendy]

sp diff between example and test case: example conforms to success criteria. test cases may have one that passes and another tha fails.

14:53:59 [wendy]

bg diff between technique and examples?

14:54:04 [wendy]

ja there are examples at all levels.

14:56:58 [wendy]

bg could we attach files to techniques submissions?

14:57:12 [wendy]

bg e.g. javascript techniques

14:57:52 [wendy]

bg would be nice if could have examples can run when looking at techniques

14:59:01 [Michael]

brb

14:59:51 [wendy]

wac can send attachments to w3c mailing lists

15:00:02 [wendy]

bc having problems w/cdata

15:00:38 [Zakim]

-Alex_Lee

15:00:40 [wendy]

bc copy the whole thing

15:00:55 [wendy]

bc best to start w/complete working file than piece of it

15:01:42 [wendy]

bc once the form is filled out, will trigger an issue

15:01:51 [wendy]

bc bugzilla will allow file attachments

15:07:08 [wendy]

bg where are the minutes?

15:07:18 [wendy]

mc i haven't been emailing the links

15:08:27 [Zakim]

-Lisa_Seeman

15:08:27 [wendy]

RRSAgent, make log world

15:10:27 [wendy]

Topic: 1.4 end-to-end

15:10:52 [bcaldwell]

http://www.eramp.com/david/end_to_end/end_to_end_1.4.htm

15:13:08 [wendy]

motion and contrast are different issues.

15:13:59 [wendy]

gateway 1.4.2 discusses why contrast is important.

15:14:18 [wendy]

lots of work needed. phrases are not best way to describe.

15:18:00 [wendy]

couple places where it is a "wendy cut, tom paste" (move from css to gateway)

15:18:14 [wendy]

still need to do that since didn't edit other parts of gateway (other than 1.1)

15:18:45 [wendy]

in gateway, need to cleanup text about "partial disabilities"

15:19:42 [wendy]

a section in html techniques for css techniques (use structural elements, style with css)

15:19:47 [wendy]

either needs expanding or coord w/css

15:19:51 [wendy]

largely a placeholder

15:20:30 [wendy]

dmd any other adjustments that need to be made?

15:21:01 [bcaldwell]

latest mappings - http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2004/07/30-sc-techniques-mapping.html

15:21:07 [wendy]

4 css techniques: # 7 Colors and Backgrounds

15:21:07 [wendy]

* 7.1 Specifying colors by keyword or RGB value

15:21:07 [wendy]

* 7.2 Specifying colors

15:21:07 [wendy]

* 7.3 Creating foreground and background contrast

15:21:07 [wendy]

* 7.4 Specifying background and foreground color

15:21:51 [wendy]

bg sc 1: Any text that is presented over a background is electronically available so that it could be re-presented in a form that allows the text to be distinguished from the background.

15:22:00 [wendy]

saying, "don't put text in images?"

15:23:29 [wendy]

if want to show how to use a specific font and div to create these effects, that be useful?

15:27:06 [wendy]

wac sending css techs to variety of folks for review. don't have FIR or text replacement techniques in this draft, still some accessibility issues. will solicit people to submit techniques.

15:28:58 [wendy]

bc create the techniques, but the asst technologies don't support. need to make clear what is not supported and why.

15:29:59 [ChrisR]

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15:30:15 [Zakim]

-Chris_Ridpath

15:34:46 [wendy]

next week: 90 minute call (to discuss test suites, etc) then 30 minutes for bugzilla training

15:37:50 [wendy]

action: editors prep bugzilla for html, css, gateway issues for next draft (3 sept)

15:37:55 [Zakim]

-Don_Evans

15:38:03 [donaldfevans]

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15:38:18 [Zakim]

-Becky_Gibson

15:38:35 [Zakim]

-Wendy

15:38:37 [Zakim]

-Jenae

15:38:39 [Zakim]

-Michael_Cooper

15:38:43 [Zakim]

-David_MacDondald

15:41:27 [Zakim]

-Ben_Caldwell

15:41:28 [Zakim]

-Sailesh_Panchang

15:41:29 [Zakim]

WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended

15:41:30 [Zakim]

Attendees were Becky_Gibson, Wendy, Alex_Lee, David_MacDondald, Jenae, Chris_Ridpath, Sailesh_Panchang, Michael_Cooper, Ben_Caldwell, Lisa_Seeman, Richard, Don_Evans

15:41:39 [wendy]

zakim, bye

15:41:39 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #wai-wcag

15:41:43 [wendy]

RRSAgent, bye

15:41:43 [RRSAgent]

I see 8 open action items:

15:41:43 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: jenae add issues related to gateway and guidelines to bugzilla [1]

15:41:43 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/08/11-wai-wcag-irc#T14-21-20

15:41:43 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: jenae add issues related to html techniques and multimedia to bugzilla [2]

15:41:43 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/08/11-wai-wcag-irc#T14-21-59

15:41:43 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: wac and sp look at structure and presentation of the mapping table [3]

15:41:43 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/08/11-wai-wcag-irc#T14-29-31

15:41:43 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: sp look at issues in bugzilla and coordinate with yvette on guidelines summary [4]

15:41:43 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/08/11-wai-wcag-irc#T14-35-06

15:41:43 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: ben add product to bugzilla for test suite [5]

15:41:43 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/08/11-wai-wcag-irc#T14-42-07

15:41:43 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: cr read process doc, if have questions talk w/wendy [6]

15:41:43 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/08/11-wai-wcag-irc#T14-43-23

15:41:43 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: bc, cr, ja set up bugzilla with components [7]

15:41:43 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/08/11-wai-wcag-irc#T14-43-58

15:41:43 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: editors prep bugzilla for html, css, gateway issues for next draft (3 sept) [8]

15:41:43 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/08/11-wai-wcag-irc#T15-37-50