IRC log of wai-wcag on 2004-07-28
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 14:01:45 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
- 14:01:45 [Zakim]
- +Tim_Boland
- 14:02:07 [Zakim]
- +[Microsoft]
- 14:02:13 [MichaelC]
- rrsagent, make logs world
- 14:02:57 [Zakim]
- +Ben_Caldwell
- 14:03:58 [Becky]
- Becky has joined #wai-wcag
- 14:04:11 [ben]
- ben has joined #wai-wcag
- 14:04:12 [wendybrb]
- wendybrb has joined #wai-wcag
- 14:04:24 [ben]
- zakim, who is here?
- 14:04:24 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see ??P3, Jim_Thatcher, +1.202.312.aaaa, Becky_Gibson, James_Craig, Chris_Ridpath, Takayuki (muted), Tim_Boland, [Microsoft], Ben_Caldwell
- 14:04:28 [MichaelC]
- zakim, [Microsoft] is temporarily Janae_Andershonis
- 14:04:28 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see wendybrb, ben, Becky, RRSAgent, jslatin, JimT, ChrisR, nabe, cookiecrook, Zakim, MichaelC
- 14:04:30 [Zakim]
- +Janae_Andershonis; got it
- 14:04:30 [wendybrb]
- i will be there in ~2 minutes. please check your email. *just* sent gateway drafts.
- 14:04:34 [Zakim]
- +Michael_Cooper
- 14:04:44 [MichaelC]
- zakim, I am Michael_Cooper
- 14:04:44 [Zakim]
- ok, MichaelC, I now associate you with Michael_Cooper
- 14:05:15 [ben]
- zakim, ??P3 is Tom_Croucher
- 14:05:15 [Zakim]
- +Tom_Croucher; got it
- 14:05:18 [MichaelC]
- zakim, +1.202 is Alex_Lee
- 14:05:18 [Zakim]
- +Alex_Lee; got it
- 14:05:34 [Becky]
- zakim, I am Becky_Gibson
- 14:05:34 [Zakim]
- ok, Becky, I now associate you with Becky_Gibson
- 14:08:33 [MichaelC]
- jslatin, will you be joining by phone?
- 14:10:35 [Zakim]
- +Paul_Bohman
- 14:10:53 [Zakim]
- +Wendy
- 14:11:43 [wendy]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 14:11:43 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Tom_Croucher, Jim_Thatcher, Alex_Lee, Becky_Gibson, James_Craig, Chris_Ridpath, Takayuki (muted), Tim_Boland, Janae_Andershonis, Ben_Caldwell, Michael_Cooper,
- 14:11:46 [Zakim]
- ... Paul_Bohman, Wendy
- 14:12:23 [wendy]
- Meeting: WCAG WG Techniques Task Force
- 14:12:29 [wendy]
- Chair: Michael Cooper
- 14:12:37 [wendy]
- agenda+ gateway
- 14:12:41 [wendy]
- agenda+ testing framework
- 14:12:44 [wendy]
- agenda+ end-to-ends
- 14:13:00 [wendy]
- zakim, take up agendum 1
- 14:13:00 [Zakim]
- agendum 1. "gateway" taken up [from wendy]
- 14:13:34 [wendy]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0239.html
- 14:18:24 [wendy]
- wac goes through the issues in the message
- 14:18:45 [wendy]
- tb is this normative?
- 14:18:57 [wendy]
- tb how relates to test framework?
- 14:23:02 [wendy]
- wac informative. not sure if needs to be objective or not. difficult to make appropriate text alternative objective.
- 14:23:10 [wendy]
- tc views: prefer the 3rd - divided into chunks.
- 14:24:00 [wendy]
- tc would like to see w/more information
- 14:24:23 [wendy]
- bc each criterion has its own page. borrowed navbar from pubrules.
- 14:24:30 [wendy]
- bc menus are generated dynamically
- 14:24:39 [wendy]
- bc if another guideline in there, all the info would be generated.
- 14:24:53 [wendy]
- tc could we generate an internal draft of the original source to see what it would look like?
- 14:25:06 [wendy]
- bc we made some change to structure, so some editing needed, but could be odne
- 14:25:14 [wendy]
- bg liked the 3rd one as well.
- 14:25:31 [wendy]
- bg the numbering scheme is confusing. could like to see it at the top.
- 14:26:33 [jslatin]
- appropriate text alternative is human-testable and sometimes machine-testable.
- 14:27:10 [wendy]
- wac curious about how people feel with moving forward. realize just got 20 minutes ago, but curious about how much time people feel they need and about publishing the documents
- 14:27:24 [wendy]
- mc have to delay everything?
- 14:27:50 [wendy]
- mc techniques point back to guidelines
- 14:28:12 [wendy]
- tc they are a collection, have been developed that way
- 14:28:17 [wendy]
- mc do we want to slide by a week?
- 14:29:21 [wendy]
- wac would like to avoid
- 14:29:50 [wendy]
- mc, tc happy with what we have
- 14:30:30 [jslatin]
- js ok with what we have
- 14:32:21 [jslatin]
- but may need to add item abt multimedia to list in gateway
- 14:33:47 [wendy]
- wac good point. not sure what it would look like - just a reference to guideline 1.2?
- 14:34:43 [wendy]
- action: wac create placeholder technique, ednote "1.2 not covered in this draft" (similar to level 3)
- 14:37:28 [wendy]
- action: wac include placeholders for 1.2 and at least one guideline for each of the other principles (to flesh out the TOC a bit more)
- 14:37:43 [wendy]
- mc group leaning towards 3rd view
- 14:37:50 [wendy]
- (slices view)
- 14:39:09 [wendy]
- bc anything to do w/numbering as interim?
- 14:39:57 [wendy]
- action: wac ednote about numbering, bc remove numbering for techniques
- 14:40:54 [wendy]
- zakim, close this item
- 14:40:54 [Zakim]
- agendum 1 closed
- 14:40:55 [Zakim]
- I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
- 14:40:56 [Zakim]
- 2. testing framework [from wendy]
- 14:41:01 [wendy]
- zakim, take up item 2
- 14:41:01 [Zakim]
- agendum 2. "testing framework" taken up [from wendy]
- 14:41:17 [Zakim]
- +John_Slatin
- 14:41:25 [wendy]
- jenae's message: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0196.html
- 14:41:47 [wendy]
- ja less of a proposal, more of a "here's everything we can have in the test framework"
- 14:41:52 [wendy]
- ja we need to figure out what should be in it
- 14:42:40 [wendy]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/att-0196/H_1_1_001.htm
- 14:42:52 [wendy]
- ja everything that could be associated with one test case
- 14:43:10 [wendy]
- ja starting w/metadata section type: automated or manual
- 14:43:21 [wendy]
- ja automated - write a script to automate it
- 14:43:31 [wendy]
- .. manual - person needs to decide it if passes or fails
- 14:44:00 [wendy]
- .. test level - just look at on a page or in regard to whole site?
- 14:44:20 [wendy]
- .. if have 100 pp and all titles need to be unique, then test throughout "all" of site
- 14:44:44 [wendy]
- .. anything that should be added?
- 14:45:13 [wendy]
- .. next is test case: prereq - if there is a test that has to be run before this test?
- 14:45:35 [wendy]
- .. pass and fail instructions
- 14:45:58 [wendy]
- .. 3. Examples
- 14:46:20 [wendy]
- .. 4. compatibility (test matrix from march comes into play here)
- 14:46:38 [wendy]
- ..5. resources
- 14:46:49 [wendy]
- ..6. status
- 14:48:02 [wendy]
- .. could then sort by any of these fields. i.e., all test cases for img field, or all that work with jaws or ... etc. whatever can do in xslt. :)
- 14:48:25 [wendy]
- tb requirement that the test files are validated?
- 14:49:03 [wendy]
- ja that could be a test case. however, this isn't so much about format but here are the things we can commit to giving to our audience.
- 14:49:34 [wendy]
- tb user interaction, i.e., prompt author for more information. a self-explanatory test purpose.
- 14:50:06 [wendy]
- tb perhaps platform specific issues that the user will want more clarification. i.e., using a particular browser
- 14:50:17 [wendy]
- ja that could be in the compatibility section. "if it fails on xyz, put that there"
- 14:51:15 [wendy]
- tc human or automated - some tests are not automatable, but can show the user what highlighting.
- 14:51:42 [wendy]
- .. may not be able to automate, but user could automate the bits used to show the author.
- 14:51:55 [wendy]
- ja look at next file: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/att-0196/H_1_1_002.htm
- 14:52:09 [wendy]
- .. it's passed the 1st test, now you need to look at it and make a decision about which test should be run next
- 14:52:21 [wendy]
- .. should it have a text equiv or be null
- 14:52:30 [wendy]
- .. if null goes to a and if not null goes to b
- 14:57:27 [Zakim]
- -Tom_Croucher
- 14:57:39 [wendy]
- discussion about knowing where in the path you are given any file.
- 14:57:46 [Zakim]
- -Alex_Lee
- 14:57:59 [wendy]
- e.g., H1.1.002 has prereq of H1.1.001.
- 14:58:22 [wendy]
- the way jenae has created, there is a decision tree. if you pass 001 you go "left" and if you fail you go "right"
- 14:58:37 [wendy]
- mc at each node there is a question that either leads to other nodes or terminates in an error report
- 14:59:21 [wendy]
- question/issue about information where you are in the path or how to walk the user through. people feel that is an ert question. wcag should define the path and let the ert/au define how to implement.
- 14:59:36 [ChrisR]
- UAAG test suite: http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/TS/html401/
- 14:59:42 [wendy]
- cr more info here than in UAAG. need to trim to that format?
- 15:00:07 [wendy]
- cr how do we want to format it?
- 15:00:32 [wendy]
- ja give people access to it, they write their own xslt to format it
- 15:01:17 [wendy]
- mc element and attribute are html-specific. need a generalized way to handle that. e.g., "selector" and "property"
- 15:01:22 [wendy]
- ja gateway may have own as well
- 15:01:29 [wendy]
- mc other than that, could easily put in xml
- 15:01:40 [wendy]
- cr assumed these were going to be html-specific. another set for other technologies.
- 15:01:44 [wendy]
- mc framework should be the same
- 15:02:14 [Zakim]
- -Tim_Boland
- 15:03:58 [wendy]
- other w3c test suites: http://www.w3.org/QA/TheMatrix
- 15:04:12 [wendy]
- cr what do we need to do to satisfy the w3c QA process
- 15:04:19 [wendy]
- mc execute the tests
- 15:08:50 [wendy]
- discussion about purpose of the test suites: testing the guidelines, verifying the accessibility created by following the guidelines
- 15:09:16 [wendy]
- js need user testing to get complete answer
- 15:09:31 [wendy]
- bc everything that has a test file is required...however we're going to have many optional techniques
- 15:09:47 [wendy]
- mc making sure that guidelines consistently interpretable
- 15:10:10 [wendy]
- ja mapping the examples to html, it wasn't clear
- 15:10:30 [wendy]
- ja we say short equivalent and short label - are those the same things?
- 15:11:11 [wendy]
- js the short label for an audio file will be alt-text for an icon or screen text for what plays the audio recording
- 15:13:00 [wendy]
- js said would like to have examples for each success criterion. (examples that are specifically associated with each criterion)
- 15:13:12 [wendy]
- js e.g., heading, "this is an example of 1.1.a" etc.
- 15:13:32 [wendy]
- js still in the example section, but calling them out as explicitly associated with
- 15:13:36 [wendy]
- ja make it so!
- 15:13:46 [wendy]
- bc the examples for 1.1 are written for the old criterion
- 15:14:00 [wendy]
- bc there are several 1.1 bugzilla bugs related to that
- 15:14:40 [wendy]
- mc when talking about testing files and interpreting guidelines consistently, going back to tool implementations, if chris implements in bobby and michael implements in bobby...will have different results.
- 15:14:52 [wendy]
- mc the only way have consistent results is to develop to the test files
- 15:15:04 [wendy]
- mc if want test files to validate interpretability, tey will define an interpretation
- 15:15:41 [wendy]
- mc there are many differences: one uses a threshold of 60 chars another uses 150 on alt-text length
- 15:15:52 [wendy]
- mc one prompts for "null alt-text or not"...
- 15:16:12 [wendy]
- mc subtle differences...this is why cr wanted such richly defined test files
- 15:16:40 [wendy]
- bc sounds like a scary road. if teach to a test, don't get useful results.
- 15:16:45 [wendy]
- mc would push in that direction
- 15:16:49 [wendy]
- js does consistent mean identical?
- 15:17:01 [wendy]
- js at the F2F talked about "how long is short?"
- 15:18:41 [wendy]
- mc another example: one tool is provide good alt-text another says provide alt-text and it needs to be xyz
- 15:19:05 [wendy]
- mc could be argued that they are consistent, but the 2nd calls out in more detail
- 15:19:37 [wendy]
- cr providing a specific interpretation is scary. however, people will have a clear idea of what we mean.
- 15:19:53 [wendy]
- q+ to say "test files for diff languages? e.g., alt-text length"
- 15:20:31 [wendy]
- js unavoidable that there will be different interpretations, that's not a bad thing.
- 15:20:39 [wendy]
- js there are humans involved. :)
- 15:20:46 [wendy]
- js we're trying to define a range of interpretation.
- 15:21:16 [wendy]
- js i used to teach poetry. exercise: here's a poem, come up with the worst interpretation you can come up with. people come up withwacky stuff.
- 15:21:29 [wendy]
- js so, you do believe that some interpretations are wrong? right.
- 15:21:34 [wendy]
- js we're trying to define the floor.
- 15:21:47 [wendy]
- mc could need more test files to cover the range.
- 15:22:27 [wendy]
- ack wendy
- 15:22:27 [Zakim]
- wendy, you wanted to say "test files for diff languages? e.g., alt-text length"
- 15:22:35 [wendy]
- stunned silence
- 15:22:58 [wendy]
- add language to metadata for test cases?
- 15:23:05 [wendy]
- cr for each language that wcag is translated into
- 15:23:30 [wendy]
- wac - re: lang - would need sets of test files for each language, e.g., 150 for english, 1/2 that for german?
- 15:23:43 [wendy]
- js a diff set of requirements might have diff set of numbers
- 15:25:14 [wendy]
- wac perhaps part of metadata: this test can be modified to suit your situation vs this test can not be modified
- 15:25:26 [wendy]
- js configurable by the end user
- 15:25:35 [wendy]
- bc and note the rationale for those
- 15:25:51 [wendy]
- bc 150 may be good measure for current technology quirks, but we may update in future as tech changes
- 15:26:09 [wendy]
- js contextual as well. i don't want to hear 150 alt text for an img on every page
- 15:26:21 [wendy]
- js that is in that line between usability and accessibility
- 15:26:28 [wendy]
- cr the guidelines are open to interpretation.
- 15:26:39 [wendy]
- cr someone could say "images don't have to have alt-text, you can describe them someplace else"
- 15:26:58 [wendy]
- cr we're saying "every img must have an alt-text" if don't like, then suggest a change.
- 15:27:03 [wendy]
- cr it is required of us to provide an interpretation
- 15:27:31 [wendy]
- js agree. question is, "how to we avoid creating canonical interpretations that are more rigid that what we are comfortable with"
- 15:27:44 [wendy]
- mc techniques and test files are not normative, therefore, despite all the work, this is our interpretation
- 15:28:04 [wendy]
- mc if you have a good reason, you could create your own, but we feel we've done a good job
- 15:29:05 [wendy]
- cr number of characters before it is suspicious
- 15:31:39 [wendy]
- [returning to discussion about ja's proposals]
- 15:31:54 [wendy]
- action: wac make sure ja's issues are entered into bugzilla (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/att-0196/End_to_End_Guildline_1.1.htm)
- 15:32:04 [Zakim]
- -Michael_Cooper
- 15:32:10 [Zakim]
- -Chris_Ridpath
- 15:33:09 [wendy]
- action 4 = wac help ja entered issues into bugzilla
- 15:34:06 [wendy]
- RRSAgent, make log world
- 15:37:12 [wendy]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 15:37:12 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Jim_Thatcher, Becky_Gibson, James_Craig, Takayuki (muted), Janae_Andershonis, Ben_Caldwell, Paul_Bohman, Wendy, John_Slatin
- 15:39:01 [wendy]
- zakim, close this item
- 15:39:01 [Zakim]
- agendum 2 closed
- 15:39:02 [Zakim]
- I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
- 15:39:03 [Zakim]
- 3. end-to-ends [from wendy]
- 15:39:33 [Zakim]
- -Paul_Bohman
- 15:41:01 [wendy]
- bc do we want to do somethin gin css and html to tie back to gateway?
- 15:41:06 [wendy]
- bc want to show the relationships better
- 15:41:29 [Zakim]
- -James_Craig
- 15:44:01 [wendy]
- action: ben work on xslt to link from html and css back to gateway
- 15:44:44 [Zakim]
- -Becky_Gibson
- 15:44:45 [Zakim]
- -Jim_Thatcher
- 15:44:46 [Zakim]
- -Ben_Caldwell
- 15:44:47 [Zakim]
- -Wendy
- 15:44:48 [Zakim]
- -Janae_Andershonis
- 15:44:49 [Zakim]
- -John_Slatin
- 15:45:19 [Zakim]
- -Takayuki
- 15:45:20 [Zakim]
- WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended
- 15:45:21 [Zakim]
- Attendees were Jim_Thatcher, +1.202.312.aaaa, Becky_Gibson, James_Craig, Chris_Ridpath, Takayuki, Tim_Boland, Ben_Caldwell, Janae_Andershonis, Michael_Cooper, Tom_Croucher,
- 15:45:23 [Zakim]
- ... Alex_Lee, Paul_Bohman, Wendy, John_Slatin
- 15:45:50 [nabe]
- Wendy, thank you for mentioning international problem on "short" alt-text
- 15:46:01 [wendy]
- :) your welceom
- 15:46:10 [wendy]
- welcome
- 15:46:36 [nabe]
- good bye
- 15:46:47 [nabe]
- nabe has left #wai-wcag
- 16:17:48 [cookiecrook]
- cookiecrook has left #wai-wcag
- 16:40:18 [ben]
- ben has left #wai-wcag
- 16:55:04 [MichaelC]
- rrsagent, bye
- 16:55:04 [RRSAgent]
- I see 5 open action items:
- 16:55:04 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: wac create placeholder technique, ednote "1.2 not covered in this draft" (similar to level 3) [1]
- 16:55:04 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/07/28-wai-wcag-irc#T14-34-43
- 16:55:04 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: wac include placeholders for 1.2 and at least one guideline for each of the other principles (to flesh out the TOC a bit more) [2]
- 16:55:04 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/07/28-wai-wcag-irc#T14-37-28
- 16:55:04 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: wac ednote about numbering, bc remove numbering for techniques [3]
- 16:55:04 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/07/28-wai-wcag-irc#T14-39-57
- 16:55:04 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: wac help ja entered issues into bugzilla [4]
- 16:55:04 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/07/28-wai-wcag-irc#T15-31-54
- 16:55:04 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: ben work on xslt to link from html and css back to gateway [5]
- 16:55:04 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/07/28-wai-wcag-irc#T15-44-01