IRC log of wai-wcag on 2004-07-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

20:17:40 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
20:18:01 [bcaldwell]
discussion on issue #891
20:18:04 [GVAN]
ack yvett
20:18:19 [bcaldwell]
resolved to revise as follows:
20:18:19 [bcaldwell]
20:18:19 [bcaldwell]
All functionality of the content is designed to be operated through a keyboard
20:18:19 [bcaldwell]
or keyboard interface.
20:18:28 [rcastaldo]
:-)
20:18:49 [RylaDog]
RylaDog has joined #wai-wcag
20:18:59 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Next item: linear reading order
20:19:25 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Michael: lots of discussion of list
20:19:36 [Yvette_Hoitink]
One proposal to make linear reading order level 1
20:19:55 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Lot of people agree
20:20:16 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Other people disagree because web is transformative, prescribed reading order is against the idea of the web
20:20:37 [Yvette_Hoitink]
If semantic structure is clear, you don't need guideline about reading order
20:21:09 [Yvette_Hoitink]
"logical" is hard to test
20:22:12 [MattSEA]
q+
20:22:27 [MichaelC]
ack Matt
20:22:37 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Matt: go back to roots of problem: layout tables
20:23:38 [Yvette_Hoitink]
q+ to say "CSS is problem too"
20:24:11 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Matt reluctant to apply linearization to things other than tables
20:25:06 [MichaelC]
q+ to say some users will experience a linear order even of non-linear pages, but that just illustrates the importance of semantic markup
20:25:06 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Gregg: linearization hard to apply to all content
20:25:39 [bcaldwell]
Curent discussion relates to Issue #829 - http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=829
20:25:53 [MichaelC]
ack yvette
20:25:53 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "CSS is problem too"
20:25:54 [MattSEA]
q+
20:26:47 [MichaelC]
ack jason
20:27:17 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Yvette: CSS is problem too, WYSIWYG tools allow you to drag and drop DIVS which could end up in illogical order.
20:27:55 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Jason: Almost all examples of problems fail structural requirements
20:28:42 [Yvette_Hoitink]
SVG example where image is optimized for rendering and not logical structure is important, similar issue
20:29:01 [MichaelC]
ack michael
20:29:01 [Zakim]
Michael_Cooper, you wanted to say some users will experience a linear order even of non-linear pages, but that just illustrates the importance of semantic markup
20:30:14 [MichaelC]
ack matt
20:30:36 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Matt: Problems with CSS aren't tied into the problem as layout tables are
20:31:09 [Yvette_Hoitink]
In tables, you sometimes need to break the reading order to get it to look the way you want
20:31:13 [Yvette_Hoitink]
That's not so in CSS
20:32:02 [Yvette_Hoitink]
q+ to say "IF reading order"
20:33:13 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Gregg: nested tables are hard to navigate
20:33:32 [MichaelC]
ack yvette
20:33:32 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "IF reading order"
20:35:09 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Yvette: could say "if you have a reading order, make sure it's logical"
20:35:29 [Yvette_Hoitink]
HTML has implicit reading order (top to bottom) so SC would apply to all HTML
20:35:30 [MichaelC]
ack jason
20:35:42 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Jason: disagree with Yvette
20:35:50 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Hard to define what it means to provide a reading order
20:36:01 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Doesn't capture cases like SVG example
20:36:25 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Would like more general statement about structure independent of layout and presentation.
20:36:40 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Reading order isn't the problem, the underlying problem is that the structure isn't clear
20:37:18 [Yvette_Hoitink]
We can add example about reading order to SC about structure
20:40:08 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Gregg: To provide markup or data model that allows you to navigate the content in a "meaningful" way
20:40:40 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Andy: navigation is very dependent on UA
20:41:14 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Gregg: Are nested tables still a problem?
20:41:26 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Or are UA smart enough to make sense of them?
20:42:13 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Andy: We(IBM) test using assistive technology
20:42:30 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Perhaps we could advise to test website through E&O group
20:43:39 [MichaelC]
ack jason
20:43:42 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Andy had example of data table with table in each cell, which caused problems when navigating by row or column
20:44:06 [rcastaldo]
I do believe that nested tables are still a problem!
20:44:39 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Jason: Need to find the principle behind the problems
20:45:08 [bcaldwell]
action: jason work on a proposal for using markup or data model to address issues of reading order
20:46:19 [Yvette_Hoitink]
q+ to say "think we should wait if Jason can come up with more generic phrasing"
20:46:41 [Yvette_Hoitink]
q-
20:46:52 [MichaelC]
ack jason
20:46:52 [cookiecrook]
ack jason
20:48:37 [Yvette_Hoitink]
q+
20:50:08 [Yvette_Hoitink]
for layout tables, only problem is if source code order doesn't make sense
20:50:30 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Gregg propose to delete "Logical" from phrasing
20:50:51 [Yvette_Hoitink]
q-
20:51:01 [MichaelC]
ack jason
20:51:29 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Jason: proposal about semantics will tackle these problems
20:52:23 [Yvette_Hoitink]
One testable point: if sentences become ungrammaticle
20:54:24 [Yvette_Hoitink]
q+
20:54:32 [Yvette_Hoitink]
q-
20:55:29 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Resolution: no action to move it, concerns there's still a problem, Jason will look into generalized version
20:55:52 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Next item: requirements for a page title
20:56:26 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Level 3 says give page a title, level 2 says to make title informative. Seems backwards
20:56:38 [Yvette_Hoitink]
One reason for level 3 is not everything is a page
20:57:20 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Practical problems: providing title for dynamic page with changing content
20:57:29 [Yvette_Hoitink]
other problem: auto-generated page
20:57:35 [bcaldwell]
Issue #830 - http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=830
20:57:41 [Yvette_Hoitink]
q+ to say "informative <> unique"
20:58:22 [MichaelC]
ack yvette
20:58:23 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "informative <> unique"
21:00:04 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Yvette: informative does not imply unique, dynamic page can have informative title that is not unique
21:01:29 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Yvette's proposal: "All pages have informative titles
21:01:34 [MichaelC]
ack jason
21:01:58 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Jason: problem: "informative" isn't testable
21:02:09 [rcastaldo]
agree
21:02:47 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Have to make clear that if a SC doesn't apply, you pass
21:05:04 [Yvette_Hoitink]
q+ to say "All pages have titles that describe the content of the page"
21:06:56 [rcastaldo]
Any duplication of the title may cause confusion
21:07:07 [Becky]
q+
21:07:08 [rcastaldo]
In any part of the entire site
21:07:42 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Should split problem in two: add requirement to have a title, and can then discuss how to handle that it be informative seperately
21:08:16 [Becky]
q-
21:08:38 [rcastaldo]
:-|
21:09:40 [rcastaldo]
The title of a page is part of the page content
21:10:04 [Andi]
q+
21:10:11 [Yvette_Hoitink]
q-
21:10:24 [Yvette_Hoitink]
What is it about TITLE that helps accessibility?
21:10:48 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Title helps to navigate - confirms where you ended up, helps with navigating in history list
21:10:52 [Andi]
q-
21:11:42 [rcastaldo]
agree
21:11:55 [MichaelC]
ack mike
21:11:55 [bcaldwell]
ack Mike
21:11:55 [Yvette_Hoitink]
People with disabilities have disproportionally more problems if title is removed
21:11:57 [Yvette_Hoitink]
ack Mike
21:12:49 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Mike: Page + random number would be unique so have to be careful about formulations
21:12:55 [Yvette_Hoitink]
mean to say "have to have good titles"
21:13:06 [Yvette_Hoitink]
q+ to say "All pages have titles that describe the content of the page"
21:13:34 [Yvette_Hoitink]
s/random number/globally unique identifier
21:14:14 [Yvette_Hoitink]
seem to go towards: "if title is supported, provide a title"
21:14:57 [GVAN]
and a second item that is ' title must be human comprehensible or useful or something.
21:15:21 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Jason: tough to formulate because if we're not careful we're asking for title for everything that can have a title and end up with all tags having titles
21:17:17 [MichaelC]
ack jason
21:17:20 [MichaelC]
ack yvette
21:17:20 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "All pages have titles that describe the content of the page"
21:17:39 [GVAN]
perhaps 'identify the contents of the page"
21:18:41 [Yvette_Hoitink]
"All page have titles that identify the content of the page"
21:20:07 [Yvette_Hoitink]
s/page/pages
21:21:13 [rcastaldo]
q+
21:22:14 [GVAN]
all x should have a title that identifies the subject or purpos of the x
21:22:50 [Zakim]
- +1.703.448.aabb
21:23:30 [GVAN]
All pages or other resource that can be referenced separately and that supports a title have a title that identifies the subject or purpose of the resource
21:23:58 [Yvette_Hoitink]
s/referenced/accessed
21:24:15 [GVAN]
All pages or other resource that can be accessed separately and that supports a title have a title that identifies the subject or purpose of the resource
21:24:24 [cookiecrook]
pages is plural and resource (first instance) should not be singular
21:24:44 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Each page or other resource...
21:24:48 [GVAN]
Each page or other resource that can be accessed separately and that supports a title have a title that identifies the subject or purpose of the resource
21:24:59 [Yvette_Hoitink]
s/have/has
21:25:32 [RylaDog]
RylaDog has left #wai-wcag
21:26:39 [rcastaldo]
zakim, unmute me
21:26:39 [Zakim]
sorry, rcastaldo, I do not see a party named 'rcastaldo'
21:27:19 [Yvette_Hoitink]
zakim, Roberto_Castaldo is rcastaldo
21:27:19 [Zakim]
+rcastaldo; got it
21:27:29 [rcastaldo]
thanks Yvette
21:27:29 [Yvette_Hoitink]
zakim, unmute roberto_Castaldo
21:27:29 [Zakim]
sorry, Yvette_Hoitink, I do not see a party named 'roberto_Castaldo'
21:27:33 [Yvette_Hoitink]
:-)
21:27:47 [rcastaldo]
zakim, unmute me
21:27:47 [Zakim]
rcastaldo was not muted, rcastaldo
21:27:58 [cookiecrook]
(grni)
21:28:12 [Becky]
2.4 L3 SC 4c: Supplying an informative title for each page or resource that can be accessed independently (for example, from a search results page),
21:28:36 [Becky]
3.1 L2 SC1: page titles are informative
21:28:43 [Yvette_Hoitink]
2.4 is best place because navigatability is primary reason for this SC
21:30:23 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Proposal: delete 3.1 L2 SC1 and 2.4 L3 SC 4c and add new phrase to level 2
21:30:42 [rcastaldo]
q-
21:30:49 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Consensus!
21:31:04 [Yvette_Hoitink]
and delete 2.4 L3 SC 4d
21:31:28 [Yvette_Hoitink]
add to level 2 of 2.4
21:31:54 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Adopted phrasing (2.4 level 2): Each page or other resource that can be accessed separately and that supports a title have a title that identifies the subject or purpose of the resource
21:32:58 [cookiecrook]
i think "accessed independently" is better than "accessed separately"
21:33:01 [Yvette_Hoitink]
still problem with 'can be accessed separately" because many different things can be accessed separately (tables, etc) and we don't want to imply that we want titles for those too
21:33:40 [rcastaldo]
zakim, mute me
21:33:40 [Zakim]
rcastaldo should now be muted
21:33:46 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Gregg: Any new items for face to face? No one answers
21:33:56 [Yvette_Hoitink]
New item: Structural emphasis evident really a user agent issue?
21:34:27 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Michael: is really a user agent issue and not a content issue. Propose to drop item
21:34:48 [cookiecrook]
q+ to ask if i can propose a f2f topic even though i won't be there
21:37:08 [Yvette_Hoitink]
2.4, lvl 3, 5: "structural emphasis is really, REALLY different"
21:38:21 [Yvette_Hoitink]
proposal to delete 2.4, lvl 3, item 5
21:38:59 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Jason: if it is reworded to say what we're trying to say, I would be happier with that. Can delete it in the meantime
21:39:44 [Yvette_Hoitink]
No objections to delete and put in Bugzilla with a note that someone should look into it
21:40:04 [rcastaldo]
:-)
21:40:07 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Consensus to dlete 2.4, lvl 3, item 5
21:40:23 [Yvette_Hoitink]
WCAG historical moment: finished our entire agenda :-)
21:40:48 [Yvette_Hoitink]
James: proposal about glossary - term link
21:42:37 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Link refers to a hyperlink between the current document and a single destination
21:43:39 [bcaldwell]
proposal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0092.html
21:43:40 [bengt]
the times are available too ? for irc ...
21:43:44 [Yvette_Hoitink]
that definition should go into the glossary, will not be discussed in the face-to-face
21:44:11 [Yvette_Hoitink]
face-to-face will have phone conference during the entire discussion
21:44:18 [bcaldwell]
resolved to accept, changing "singular" to "single"
21:44:44 [Zakim]
-Michael_Cooper
21:45:25 [cookiecrook]
full definition: Link refers to a hyperlink between the current document and a single destination. (Here, "link" refers to a single "arc" in the XLink specification.) Only links which are available to be activated by the user need to meet accessibility requirements. This excludes links that are activated automatically or programmatically.
21:45:44 [rcastaldo]
Bye all
21:45:46 [Zakim]
-Mike_Barta
21:45:47 [Zakim]
-James_Craig
21:45:48 [Zakim]
-Matt
21:45:48 [rcastaldo]
rcastaldo has left #wai-wcag
21:45:49 [Zakim]
-Andy_Snow_Weaver
21:45:49 [Zakim]
-Becky_Gibson
21:45:50 [Zakim]
-Ben_and_Gregg
21:45:51 [Zakim]
-JasonWhite
21:45:52 [Zakim]
-Yvette_Hoitink
21:45:53 [Zakim]
-Loretta_Guarino_Reid
21:45:55 [Zakim]
-rcastaldo
21:45:57 [Zakim]
-Bengt_Farre
21:45:59 [Zakim]
-Tayayuki_Watanabe
21:46:34 [nabe]
nabe has left #wai-wcag
21:46:57 [bengt]
bengt has left #wai-wcag
21:47:45 [Zakim]
-David_MacDonald
21:47:46 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has ended
21:47:47 [Zakim]
Attendees were Becky_Gibson, Yvette_Hoitink, Matt, James_Craig, Michael_Cooper, JasonWhite, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Tayayuki_Watanabe, David_MacDonald, Bengt_Farre, Ben_and_Gregg,
21:47:49 [Zakim]
... Mike_Barta, Andy_Snow_Weaver, +1.703.448.aaaa, +1.703.448.aabb, rcastaldo