IRC log of wai-wcag on 2004-07-08
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 20:17:40 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
- 20:18:01 [bcaldwell]
- discussion on issue #891
- 20:18:04 [GVAN]
- ack yvett
- 20:18:19 [bcaldwell]
- resolved to revise as follows:
- 20:18:19 [bcaldwell]
-
- 20:18:19 [bcaldwell]
- All functionality of the content is designed to be operated through a keyboard
- 20:18:19 [bcaldwell]
- or keyboard interface.
- 20:18:28 [rcastaldo]
- :-)
- 20:18:49 [RylaDog]
- RylaDog has joined #wai-wcag
- 20:18:59 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Next item: linear reading order
- 20:19:25 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Michael: lots of discussion of list
- 20:19:36 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- One proposal to make linear reading order level 1
- 20:19:55 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Lot of people agree
- 20:20:16 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Other people disagree because web is transformative, prescribed reading order is against the idea of the web
- 20:20:37 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- If semantic structure is clear, you don't need guideline about reading order
- 20:21:09 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- "logical" is hard to test
- 20:22:12 [MattSEA]
- q+
- 20:22:27 [MichaelC]
- ack Matt
- 20:22:37 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Matt: go back to roots of problem: layout tables
- 20:23:38 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- q+ to say "CSS is problem too"
- 20:24:11 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Matt reluctant to apply linearization to things other than tables
- 20:25:06 [MichaelC]
- q+ to say some users will experience a linear order even of non-linear pages, but that just illustrates the importance of semantic markup
- 20:25:06 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Gregg: linearization hard to apply to all content
- 20:25:39 [bcaldwell]
- Curent discussion relates to Issue #829 - http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=829
- 20:25:53 [MichaelC]
- ack yvette
- 20:25:53 [Zakim]
- Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "CSS is problem too"
- 20:25:54 [MattSEA]
- q+
- 20:26:47 [MichaelC]
- ack jason
- 20:27:17 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Yvette: CSS is problem too, WYSIWYG tools allow you to drag and drop DIVS which could end up in illogical order.
- 20:27:55 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Jason: Almost all examples of problems fail structural requirements
- 20:28:42 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- SVG example where image is optimized for rendering and not logical structure is important, similar issue
- 20:29:01 [MichaelC]
- ack michael
- 20:29:01 [Zakim]
- Michael_Cooper, you wanted to say some users will experience a linear order even of non-linear pages, but that just illustrates the importance of semantic markup
- 20:30:14 [MichaelC]
- ack matt
- 20:30:36 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Matt: Problems with CSS aren't tied into the problem as layout tables are
- 20:31:09 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- In tables, you sometimes need to break the reading order to get it to look the way you want
- 20:31:13 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- That's not so in CSS
- 20:32:02 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- q+ to say "IF reading order"
- 20:33:13 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Gregg: nested tables are hard to navigate
- 20:33:32 [MichaelC]
- ack yvette
- 20:33:32 [Zakim]
- Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "IF reading order"
- 20:35:09 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Yvette: could say "if you have a reading order, make sure it's logical"
- 20:35:29 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- HTML has implicit reading order (top to bottom) so SC would apply to all HTML
- 20:35:30 [MichaelC]
- ack jason
- 20:35:42 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Jason: disagree with Yvette
- 20:35:50 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Hard to define what it means to provide a reading order
- 20:36:01 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Doesn't capture cases like SVG example
- 20:36:25 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Would like more general statement about structure independent of layout and presentation.
- 20:36:40 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Reading order isn't the problem, the underlying problem is that the structure isn't clear
- 20:37:18 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- We can add example about reading order to SC about structure
- 20:40:08 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Gregg: To provide markup or data model that allows you to navigate the content in a "meaningful" way
- 20:40:40 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Andy: navigation is very dependent on UA
- 20:41:14 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Gregg: Are nested tables still a problem?
- 20:41:26 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Or are UA smart enough to make sense of them?
- 20:42:13 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Andy: We(IBM) test using assistive technology
- 20:42:30 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Perhaps we could advise to test website through E&O group
- 20:43:39 [MichaelC]
- ack jason
- 20:43:42 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Andy had example of data table with table in each cell, which caused problems when navigating by row or column
- 20:44:06 [rcastaldo]
- I do believe that nested tables are still a problem!
- 20:44:39 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Jason: Need to find the principle behind the problems
- 20:45:08 [bcaldwell]
- action: jason work on a proposal for using markup or data model to address issues of reading order
- 20:46:19 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- q+ to say "think we should wait if Jason can come up with more generic phrasing"
- 20:46:41 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- q-
- 20:46:52 [MichaelC]
- ack jason
- 20:46:52 [cookiecrook]
- ack jason
- 20:48:37 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- q+
- 20:50:08 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- for layout tables, only problem is if source code order doesn't make sense
- 20:50:30 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Gregg propose to delete "Logical" from phrasing
- 20:50:51 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- q-
- 20:51:01 [MichaelC]
- ack jason
- 20:51:29 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Jason: proposal about semantics will tackle these problems
- 20:52:23 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- One testable point: if sentences become ungrammaticle
- 20:54:24 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- q+
- 20:54:32 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- q-
- 20:55:29 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Resolution: no action to move it, concerns there's still a problem, Jason will look into generalized version
- 20:55:52 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Next item: requirements for a page title
- 20:56:26 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Level 3 says give page a title, level 2 says to make title informative. Seems backwards
- 20:56:38 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- One reason for level 3 is not everything is a page
- 20:57:20 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Practical problems: providing title for dynamic page with changing content
- 20:57:29 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- other problem: auto-generated page
- 20:57:35 [bcaldwell]
- Issue #830 - http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=830
- 20:57:41 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- q+ to say "informative <> unique"
- 20:58:22 [MichaelC]
- ack yvette
- 20:58:23 [Zakim]
- Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "informative <> unique"
- 21:00:04 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Yvette: informative does not imply unique, dynamic page can have informative title that is not unique
- 21:01:29 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Yvette's proposal: "All pages have informative titles
- 21:01:34 [MichaelC]
- ack jason
- 21:01:58 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Jason: problem: "informative" isn't testable
- 21:02:09 [rcastaldo]
- agree
- 21:02:47 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Have to make clear that if a SC doesn't apply, you pass
- 21:05:04 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- q+ to say "All pages have titles that describe the content of the page"
- 21:06:56 [rcastaldo]
- Any duplication of the title may cause confusion
- 21:07:07 [Becky]
- q+
- 21:07:08 [rcastaldo]
- In any part of the entire site
- 21:07:42 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Should split problem in two: add requirement to have a title, and can then discuss how to handle that it be informative seperately
- 21:08:16 [Becky]
- q-
- 21:08:38 [rcastaldo]
- :-|
- 21:09:40 [rcastaldo]
- The title of a page is part of the page content
- 21:10:04 [Andi]
- q+
- 21:10:11 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- q-
- 21:10:24 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- What is it about TITLE that helps accessibility?
- 21:10:48 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Title helps to navigate - confirms where you ended up, helps with navigating in history list
- 21:10:52 [Andi]
- q-
- 21:11:42 [rcastaldo]
- agree
- 21:11:55 [MichaelC]
- ack mike
- 21:11:55 [bcaldwell]
- ack Mike
- 21:11:55 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- People with disabilities have disproportionally more problems if title is removed
- 21:11:57 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- ack Mike
- 21:12:49 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Mike: Page + random number would be unique so have to be careful about formulations
- 21:12:55 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- mean to say "have to have good titles"
- 21:13:06 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- q+ to say "All pages have titles that describe the content of the page"
- 21:13:34 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- s/random number/globally unique identifier
- 21:14:14 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- seem to go towards: "if title is supported, provide a title"
- 21:14:57 [GVAN]
- and a second item that is ' title must be human comprehensible or useful or something.
- 21:15:21 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Jason: tough to formulate because if we're not careful we're asking for title for everything that can have a title and end up with all tags having titles
- 21:17:17 [MichaelC]
- ack jason
- 21:17:20 [MichaelC]
- ack yvette
- 21:17:20 [Zakim]
- Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "All pages have titles that describe the content of the page"
- 21:17:39 [GVAN]
- perhaps 'identify the contents of the page"
- 21:18:41 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- "All page have titles that identify the content of the page"
- 21:20:07 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- s/page/pages
- 21:21:13 [rcastaldo]
- q+
- 21:22:14 [GVAN]
- all x should have a title that identifies the subject or purpos of the x
- 21:22:50 [Zakim]
- - +1.703.448.aabb
- 21:23:30 [GVAN]
- All pages or other resource that can be referenced separately and that supports a title have a title that identifies the subject or purpose of the resource
- 21:23:58 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- s/referenced/accessed
- 21:24:15 [GVAN]
- All pages or other resource that can be accessed separately and that supports a title have a title that identifies the subject or purpose of the resource
- 21:24:24 [cookiecrook]
- pages is plural and resource (first instance) should not be singular
- 21:24:44 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Each page or other resource...
- 21:24:48 [GVAN]
- Each page or other resource that can be accessed separately and that supports a title have a title that identifies the subject or purpose of the resource
- 21:24:59 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- s/have/has
- 21:25:32 [RylaDog]
- RylaDog has left #wai-wcag
- 21:26:39 [rcastaldo]
- zakim, unmute me
- 21:26:39 [Zakim]
- sorry, rcastaldo, I do not see a party named 'rcastaldo'
- 21:27:19 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- zakim, Roberto_Castaldo is rcastaldo
- 21:27:19 [Zakim]
- +rcastaldo; got it
- 21:27:29 [rcastaldo]
- thanks Yvette
- 21:27:29 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- zakim, unmute roberto_Castaldo
- 21:27:29 [Zakim]
- sorry, Yvette_Hoitink, I do not see a party named 'roberto_Castaldo'
- 21:27:33 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- :-)
- 21:27:47 [rcastaldo]
- zakim, unmute me
- 21:27:47 [Zakim]
- rcastaldo was not muted, rcastaldo
- 21:27:58 [cookiecrook]
- (grni)
- 21:28:12 [Becky]
- 2.4 L3 SC 4c: Supplying an informative title for each page or resource that can be accessed independently (for example, from a search results page),
- 21:28:36 [Becky]
- 3.1 L2 SC1: page titles are informative
- 21:28:43 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- 2.4 is best place because navigatability is primary reason for this SC
- 21:30:23 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Proposal: delete 3.1 L2 SC1 and 2.4 L3 SC 4c and add new phrase to level 2
- 21:30:42 [rcastaldo]
- q-
- 21:30:49 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Consensus!
- 21:31:04 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- and delete 2.4 L3 SC 4d
- 21:31:28 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- add to level 2 of 2.4
- 21:31:54 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Adopted phrasing (2.4 level 2): Each page or other resource that can be accessed separately and that supports a title have a title that identifies the subject or purpose of the resource
- 21:32:58 [cookiecrook]
- i think "accessed independently" is better than "accessed separately"
- 21:33:01 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- still problem with 'can be accessed separately" because many different things can be accessed separately (tables, etc) and we don't want to imply that we want titles for those too
- 21:33:40 [rcastaldo]
- zakim, mute me
- 21:33:40 [Zakim]
- rcastaldo should now be muted
- 21:33:46 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Gregg: Any new items for face to face? No one answers
- 21:33:56 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- New item: Structural emphasis evident really a user agent issue?
- 21:34:27 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Michael: is really a user agent issue and not a content issue. Propose to drop item
- 21:34:48 [cookiecrook]
- q+ to ask if i can propose a f2f topic even though i won't be there
- 21:37:08 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- 2.4, lvl 3, 5: "structural emphasis is really, REALLY different"
- 21:38:21 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- proposal to delete 2.4, lvl 3, item 5
- 21:38:59 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Jason: if it is reworded to say what we're trying to say, I would be happier with that. Can delete it in the meantime
- 21:39:44 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- No objections to delete and put in Bugzilla with a note that someone should look into it
- 21:40:04 [rcastaldo]
- :-)
- 21:40:07 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Consensus to dlete 2.4, lvl 3, item 5
- 21:40:23 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- WCAG historical moment: finished our entire agenda :-)
- 21:40:48 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- James: proposal about glossary - term link
- 21:42:37 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Link refers to a hyperlink between the current document and a single destination
- 21:43:39 [bcaldwell]
- proposal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0092.html
- 21:43:40 [bengt]
- the times are available too ? for irc ...
- 21:43:44 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- that definition should go into the glossary, will not be discussed in the face-to-face
- 21:44:11 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- face-to-face will have phone conference during the entire discussion
- 21:44:18 [bcaldwell]
- resolved to accept, changing "singular" to "single"
- 21:44:44 [Zakim]
- -Michael_Cooper
- 21:45:25 [cookiecrook]
- full definition: Link refers to a hyperlink between the current document and a single destination. (Here, "link" refers to a single "arc" in the XLink specification.) Only links which are available to be activated by the user need to meet accessibility requirements. This excludes links that are activated automatically or programmatically.
- 21:45:44 [rcastaldo]
- Bye all
- 21:45:46 [Zakim]
- -Mike_Barta
- 21:45:47 [Zakim]
- -James_Craig
- 21:45:48 [Zakim]
- -Matt
- 21:45:48 [rcastaldo]
- rcastaldo has left #wai-wcag
- 21:45:49 [Zakim]
- -Andy_Snow_Weaver
- 21:45:49 [Zakim]
- -Becky_Gibson
- 21:45:50 [Zakim]
- -Ben_and_Gregg
- 21:45:51 [Zakim]
- -JasonWhite
- 21:45:52 [Zakim]
- -Yvette_Hoitink
- 21:45:53 [Zakim]
- -Loretta_Guarino_Reid
- 21:45:55 [Zakim]
- -rcastaldo
- 21:45:57 [Zakim]
- -Bengt_Farre
- 21:45:59 [Zakim]
- -Tayayuki_Watanabe
- 21:46:34 [nabe]
- nabe has left #wai-wcag
- 21:46:57 [bengt]
- bengt has left #wai-wcag
- 21:47:45 [Zakim]
- -David_MacDonald
- 21:47:46 [Zakim]
- WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has ended
- 21:47:47 [Zakim]
- Attendees were Becky_Gibson, Yvette_Hoitink, Matt, James_Craig, Michael_Cooper, JasonWhite, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Tayayuki_Watanabe, David_MacDonald, Bengt_Farre, Ben_and_Gregg,
- 21:47:49 [Zakim]
- ... Mike_Barta, Andy_Snow_Weaver, +1.703.448.aaaa, +1.703.448.aabb, rcastaldo