IRC log of wai-wcag on 2004-07-01
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 18:19:52 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
- 18:20:03 [wendy]
- Meeting: WCAG WG 1 July 2004 telecon
- 18:20:52 [wendy]
- Regrets: Roberto Scano, Roberto Ellero, Becky Gibson, Avi Arditti
- 18:21:29 [wendy]
- Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004AprJun/0885.html
- 18:23:31 [wendy]
- RRSAgent, make log world
- 18:23:56 [wendy]
- Chair: Gregg Vanderheiden
- 19:16:29 [bengt]
- bengt has joined #wai-wcag
- 19:42:00 [fczbkk]
- fczbkk has joined #wai-wcag
- 19:48:04 [cookiecrook]
- is it cool to call in a few minutes before? when is the conf call initiated... thx.
- 19:48:25 [bengt]
- rssagent active ?
- 19:48:41 [Zakim]
- Zakim has joined #wai-wcag
- 19:49:02 [bengt]
- zakim, this will be wai_wcag
- 19:49:02 [Zakim]
- ok, bengt; I see WAI_WCAG()4:00PM scheduled to start in 11 minutes
- 19:50:15 [bengt]
- cannot call in until zakim has opened channels ?
- 19:52:46 [rscano]
- rscano has joined #wai-wcag
- 19:54:34 [rellero]
- rellero has joined #wai-wcag
- 19:55:49 [rellero]
- hi
- 19:56:02 [rscano]
- hi
- 19:56:16 [rscano]
- roberto's are in train
- 19:56:21 [rscano]
- :)
- 19:57:39 [Zakim]
- WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has now started
- 19:57:46 [Zakim]
- +[ATTcaller]
- 19:59:23 [Zakim]
- + +1.512.542.aaaa
- 19:59:54 [MattSEA]
- MattSEA has joined #wai-wcag
- 20:00:08 [cookiecrook]
- that's me... james craig
- 20:00:19 [Zakim]
- +Matt
- 20:00:30 [cookiecrook]
- 512-542-3581
- 20:00:54 [bengt]
- dont announce your full telenumber :)
- 20:02:22 [Zakim]
- +John_Slatin
- 20:02:48 [Zakim]
- +Sailesh_Panchang
- 20:03:04 [bcaldwell]
- bcaldwell has joined #wai-wcag
- 20:03:13 [Zakim]
- +??P3
- 20:03:30 [bengt]
- zakim, ??P3 is Bengt_Farre
- 20:03:30 [Zakim]
- +Bengt_Farre; got it
- 20:03:32 [Zakim]
- +Wendy
- 20:03:41 [Zakim]
- +??P5
- 20:03:43 [wendy]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 20:03:43 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see [ATTcaller], +1.512.542.aaaa, Matt, John_Slatin, Sailesh_Panchang, Bengt_Farre, Wendy, ??P5
- 20:03:55 [wendy]
- zakim, +1.512.542.aaaa is James_Craig
- 20:03:55 [Zakim]
- +James_Craig; got it
- 20:03:56 [Zakim]
- +[Microsoft]
- 20:04:02 [wendy]
- zakim, ??P5 is Ben-and-Gregg
- 20:04:02 [Zakim]
- +Ben-and-Gregg; got it
- 20:04:04 [Zakim]
- +[IBM]
- 20:04:09 [wendy]
- zakim, [Microsoft] is Mike_Barta
- 20:04:09 [Zakim]
- +Mike_Barta; got it
- 20:04:17 [wendy]
- zakim, [IBM] is Andi_Snow-Weaver
- 20:04:17 [Zakim]
- +Andi_Snow-Weaver; got it
- 20:04:20 [rscano]
- rscano has joined #wai-wcag
- 20:04:21 [wendy]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 20:04:21 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see [ATTcaller], James_Craig, Matt, John_Slatin, Sailesh_Panchang, Bengt_Farre, Wendy, Ben-and-Gregg, Mike_Barta, Andi_Snow-Weaver
- 20:04:27 [Zakim]
- +JasonWhite
- 20:04:28 [Andi]
- Andi has joined #wai-wcag
- 20:04:30 [wendy]
- Bengt, are you ATTcaller?
- 20:04:42 [bengt]
- nope alread set up my name
- 20:04:42 [wendy]
- hmm. nope
- 20:05:00 [Zakim]
- +Loretta_Guarino_Reid
- 20:05:22 [wendy]
- zakim, [ATTcaller] is Doyle_Burnett
- 20:05:22 [Zakim]
- +Doyle_Burnett; got it
- 20:05:42 [wendy]
- :)
- 20:06:17 [GVAN]
- GVAN has joined #wai-wcag
- 20:06:23 [rscano]
- wonderful follow by train :)
- 20:08:21 [wendy]
- Topic: [#832] Clear link text - priority and acceptability of supplement
- 20:09:11 [wendy]
- yvette's comments: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0009.html
- 20:09:23 [Zakim]
- +Yvette_Hoitink
- 20:09:30 [DoyleB]
- DoyleB has joined #wai-wcag
- 20:09:58 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Yvette_Hoitink has joined #wai-wcag
- 20:10:06 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Hi people, sorry I'm late
- 20:10:11 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- zakim, who's on the phone
- 20:10:11 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'who's on the phone', Yvette_Hoitink
- 20:10:29 [rellero]
- Hi
- 20:11:54 [wendy]
- yh before determine if level 1 or level 3, first need to decide what link text is
- 20:12:02 [wendy]
- Scribe: Wendy Chisholm
- 20:12:50 [wendy]
- yh what is the purpose? to help people who are blind or to help cog disabilities or both?
- 20:13:04 [wendy]
- michael's notes from agenda: * Proposal from Techniques TF to make clear link text under guideline 3.2 a
- 20:13:04 [wendy]
- level 1 - currently is level 3
- 20:13:04 [wendy]
- * Possible it was level 3 because of ability to use "title" to clarify - but
- 20:13:04 [wendy]
- unclear in UAAG how that should be handled; is not well handled in current
- 20:13:04 [wendy]
- UA
- 20:13:05 [wendy]
- * Discussion/questions on list about reasons this is important for different
- 20:13:07 [wendy]
- people, but some feeling that it is in spite of feeling that it "shouldn't
- 20:13:09 [wendy]
- be"
- 20:13:11 [wendy]
- * Questions about how links used, e.g., for navigation, and whether we
- 20:13:13 [wendy]
- should accommodate that
- 20:13:15 [wendy]
- ack john
- 20:13:36 [wendy]
- js not only for people who are blind, also for low vision and people with cog. disabilties
- 20:13:53 [wendy]
- .. don't need to address link text but make the destination available
- 20:14:12 [GVAN]
- Q+
- 20:14:24 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- q+ to say "make destination available sounds like you have to have a href for a link"
- 20:14:28 [wendy]
- .. at level 1, "available to asst. techs" could use 'title' to get info and not effect default presentation
- 20:14:36 [wendy]
- .. at level 2, make default presentation clearer
- 20:15:00 [wendy]
- .. if don't use phrase, "link text" in guidelines, then finesse the issue of addressing what link text is.
- 20:15:02 [wendy]
- ack jason
- 20:15:29 [wendy]
- jw agree w/john that if we say anything about link destinations, then we need to say that they are avail. to asst. tech. concern about testability.
- 20:15:35 [wendy]
- .. "clear" is as testable as "simple"
- 20:16:27 [wendy]
- .. how to clarify what needs to be done to make it testable?
- 20:16:56 [wendy]
- .. at level 3, certainly require something that is visible. at level 1 could make it more explicit about avail. to asst. tech.
- 20:17:07 [wendy]
- ack gv
- 20:17:16 [wendy]
- gv how big is the problem?
- 20:17:53 [wendy]
- .. links presumably make more sense when read in context
- 20:18:01 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- q-
- 20:18:15 [wendy]
- .. destination is usually available, but is it clearer if you take the link off of the page
- 20:18:55 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- q+ to say "idea for UAAG: use <title> of destination for link list"
- 20:19:13 [wendy]
- ack john
- 20:19:31 [wendy]
- js not just about people using links lists.
- 20:20:18 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- q-
- 20:20:22 [wendy]
- .. challenge to look at page through a straw. may see the link, but may not see the context.
- 20:22:00 [wendy]
- ack sailesh
- 20:22:15 [GVAN]
- q+
- 20:22:23 [wendy]
- sp there are links that are very long (dozen words)
- 20:23:06 [wendy]
- ack gv
- 20:24:19 [wendy]
- js go to a page that lists technical reports and lists 3 versions of each one. figure out which one you want.
- 20:24:37 [wendy]
- ack loretta
- 20:24:47 [wendy]
- LGR conflict between complete and terse
- 20:25:14 [wendy]
- .. can we optimize simultaneously
- 20:25:16 [wendy]
- ack john
- 20:25:19 [wendy]
- ack jason
- 20:25:32 [wendy]
- jw have not seen a proposal that addresses testability issues.
- 20:25:39 [wendy]
- .. perhaps level 2 or 3 issues, but not level 1
- 20:26:58 [wendy]
- gv e.g. - have a list of reports, each has a link for each format (5 formats)
- 20:27:04 [wendy]
- how mark it up/
- 20:27:06 [wendy]
- ?
- 20:27:19 [wendy]
- put the title document in the title attribute in each of the links
- 20:27:45 [wendy]
- title="PDF version of [title of document]"
- 20:28:20 [wendy]
- have to configure jaws as to which to display
- 20:28:51 [wendy]
- sp read both if different
- 20:29:00 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- q+
- 20:29:24 [wendy]
- gv what about browsers that do link lists?
- 20:34:18 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- ack Yvette
- 20:34:21 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- ack Jason
- 20:34:23 [wendy]
- actually - opera seems to only list links that go to the same place only once.
- 20:34:38 [wendy]
- i.e., several links to news archive, although diff places on that page, only appear once.
- 20:34:49 [wendy]
- link to a pdf document has an icon
- 20:34:54 [wendy]
- image links, alt-text is shown
- 20:37:05 [wendy]
- title is shown if available i.e., <a href="" title="Alphabetical Site Index">site index</a>
- 20:37:34 [wendy]
- what about multiple destinations in an xLink?
- 20:39:04 [wendy]
- "the destination is identified in link text or ...
- 20:39:10 [wendy]
- current level 3: The target of each link is clearly identified
- 20:39:11 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- q+ to say "The destination is identified in the link text or through markup"
- 20:39:11 [cookiecrook]
- q+
- 20:39:18 [wendy]
- remove "clearly" to make tstable
- 20:39:35 [wendy]
- need to say "in words" or something, otherwise, get content of href?
- 20:39:51 [wendy]
- ack yvette
- 20:39:51 [Zakim]
- Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "The destination is identified in the link text or through markup"
- 20:40:12 [wendy]
- s/markup/whatever our phrase is for markup like stuff
- 20:40:14 [wendy]
- ack cookie
- 20:40:29 [wendy]
- re: xlink - that should be defined for each attribute
- 20:40:37 [wendy]
- attribute for each resource
- 20:41:02 [wendy]
- zakim, cookiecrook is James_Craig
- 20:41:02 [Zakim]
- sorry, wendy, I do not recognize a party named 'cookiecrook'
- 20:41:16 [wendy]
- zakim, associate cookiecrook with James_Craig
- 20:41:16 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'associate cookiecrook with James_Craig', wendy
- 20:41:17 [cookiecrook]
- q+
- 20:43:08 [wendy]
- in text that is programatically associated with the link
- 20:43:23 [wendy]
- "destination is id in the link text or can be derived programmatically"
- 20:43:34 [wendy]
- using href, it can be derived programmatically
- 20:43:46 [wendy]
- i.e., by fetching the other page
- 20:44:25 [bengt]
- no you have get the header only !
- 20:44:32 [cookiecrook]
- agreed
- 20:46:08 [wendy]
- "destination is id in the link text or can be derived programmatically without fetching the target"
- 20:46:19 [wendy]
- ack cookiecrack
- 20:46:24 [wendy]
- ack cookie
- 20:46:38 [wendy]
- what about "action verb" recommendation? i.e., avoid call to actions in the link text?
- 20:47:05 [wendy]
- ack john
- 20:47:53 [wendy]
- s/fetching/retrieving
- 20:48:01 [wendy]
- ack john
- 20:48:18 [wendy]
- js against: saying "can be derived programmatically.." does not solve the href problem.
- 20:48:41 [wendy]
- .. that is the destination
- 20:50:10 [wendy]
- action: js reword "destination is id in the link text or can be derived programmatically without fetching the target"
- 20:50:45 [wendy]
- yh should be level 1
- 20:50:50 [wendy]
- gv not serious enough to be level 1
- 20:51:13 [wendy]
- wac could be level 1 if can satisfy by using title on a (e.g.)
- 20:51:25 [wendy]
- yh it fits our criteria for level 1.
- 20:52:29 [wendy]
- gv no it doesn't
- 20:53:49 [wendy]
- jw happy for level 3, ok with level 2, don't think for leve 1
- 20:53:55 [wendy]
- asw unless consensus to move, keep at level 3
- 20:54:01 [wendy]
- yh think level 1, could live with 2 or 3
- 20:54:09 [wendy]
- js happy with level 2, prefer level 1, level 3 no
- 20:54:24 [wendy]
- jc happy with 2 or 3
- 20:54:31 [wendy]
- anyone against level 2?
- 20:54:50 [wendy]
- jaws tries expressing opinion...
- 20:54:52 [wendy]
- :)
- 20:55:08 [wendy]
- john will work on wording and then we'll discuss level 2 or level 3
- 20:55:30 [wendy]
- sp criticality is part of defn of level 1,2, 3?
- 20:55:48 [wendy]
- Level 1 success criteria:
- 20:55:48 [wendy]
- Achieve a minimum level of accessibility through markup, scripting, or other technologies that interact with user agents, including assistive technologies
- 20:55:48 [wendy]
- Could be reasonably be applied to all Web resources
- 20:55:56 [wendy]
- Level 2 success criteria:
- 20:55:56 [wendy]
- Increase accessibility through either or both of the following:
- 20:55:56 [wendy]
- additional facilitation of user agent based accessibility
- 20:55:56 [wendy]
- content and/or presentation that provides direct accessibility without requiring the user or their user agent to do anything different from users without disabilities
- 20:55:56 [wendy]
- Could be reasonably be applied to all Web resources.
- 20:56:00 [wendy]
- Level 3 success criteria:
- 20:56:00 [wendy]
- Go beyond Level 1 and 2 to increase direct and user agent enhanced accessibility
- 20:56:05 [wendy]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/#conformance
- 20:56:38 [wendy]
- sp whether an issue is critical for accessibility or not is not defined by a technique making it more or less accessible?
- 20:57:06 [wendy]
- gv what goes in level 1, 2 or 3, not so mcuh defined by the defns but what we decide as a committee.
- 20:58:55 [wendy]
- i.e., gv's interpretation is not the final word, but merely his interpretation of where he thinks we are.
- 20:59:22 [wendy]
- sp does the interpretation of level 1 keep changing?
- 20:59:34 [wendy]
- gv it is subject to change because we as a group can change it.
- 21:01:05 [wendy]
- ack john
- 21:01:35 [wendy]
- s/located/derived
- 21:01:40 [wendy]
- john reads proposal (also sent to list)
- 21:02:10 [wendy]
- located - locate a defn but can't determine which one it is
- 21:02:17 [wendy]
- determine - know exactly which one you are refering to
- 21:02:38 [wendy]
- "the dest of each link is identified in words or prhases that occur in the default presentation or can be determined programmatically"
- 21:02:50 [wendy]
- using title, is "determined programmatically"
- 21:02:57 [wendy]
- s/prhases/phrases
- 21:03:03 [wendy]
- concern with "default presentation"
- 21:03:42 [wendy]
- so, just delete and say
- 21:03:55 [wendy]
- "the dest of each link is identified in words and phrases in the link or can be programmatically determined"
- 21:04:25 [wendy]
- the words and phrases that id the dest, either occur in the link or can be determined prog.
- 21:05:37 [wendy]
- the dest of each link is id through words or phrase that occur in the link or can be determined programmatically"
- 21:06:06 [wendy]
- the destination of each link is identified through words or phrases that occur in the link or can be determined programmatically"
- 21:06:07 [rellero]
- rellero has joined #wai-wcag
- 21:06:24 [wendy]
- the destination of each link is identified through words or phrases that occur in the link or they can be determined programmatically"
- 21:06:41 [wendy]
- the destination of each link is identified through words or phrases that either occur in the link or can be determined programmatically"
- 21:07:09 [wendy]
- the destination of each link is identified through words or phrases that either occur in the link or can be programmatically determined
- 21:07:28 [wendy]
- drop action 1
- 21:07:34 [wendy]
- RRSAgent, drop action 1
- 21:07:54 [wendy]
- consensus on this text.
- 21:08:15 [wendy]
- action: ben publish to list w/nomination that it be considered for level 2
- 21:08:48 [wendy]
- Topic: [#827] Success criterion for separate content from presentation
- 21:08:58 [wendy]
- Introduction by: Michael Cooper
- 21:08:58 [wendy]
- <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004AprJun/0721.html>
- 21:08:58 [wendy]
- * Guideline 1.3 speaks to separation of content from presentation, but no
- 21:08:58 [wendy]
- success criterion address that specifically. TTF would like to create
- 21:08:58 [wendy]
- techniques but needs a SC.
- 21:09:00 [wendy]
- * Concern that this would have effect of banning technologies that don't
- 21:09:01 [wendy]
- provide mechanisms to do this
- 21:09:55 [wendy]
- propose adding a success criterion "Presentation is implemented
- 21:09:55 [wendy]
- separately from semantic structure." I suspect this should be a level 2 SC
- 21:09:55 [wendy]
- but
- 21:09:55 [wendy]
- possibly it should be level 1.
- 21:10:13 [wendy]
- if that was a success criterion, then things w/outstyle sheets would fail.
- 21:10:19 [wendy]
- ack jason
- 21:10:36 [wendy]
- jw pdf satisfies this
- 21:11:07 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- q+ to say "Wherever a choice between input device event handlers is available and supported"
- 21:11:34 [wendy]
- q+ to say, "restyling - primarily contrast and magnification. primarily related to extracting text for restyling. doesn't make sense for gif but does for SVG, MathML, voicexml. should probably apply to InkML but not clear that it does now."
- 21:11:59 [wendy]
- jw anything that meets 1.3 should meet this unless there is something in addition that needs to be spelled out.
- 21:12:41 [wendy]
- jw if can retrieve the structure, then it can be separated from presentation.
- 21:13:29 [wendy]
- jw layout is seprate from the semantics and the references to the content
- 21:13:51 [wendy]
- ack yvette
- 21:13:51 [Zakim]
- Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "Wherever a choice between input device event handlers is available and supported"
- 21:14:14 [wendy]
- ack loretta
- 21:14:17 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- q+
- 21:14:32 [wendy]
- lgr separating the two doesn't mean that you can change tteh presentation
- 21:14:49 [wendy]
- lgr we have separate semantics from presentation, but that doesnt' mean you can change the presentation ala css
- 21:15:01 [wendy]
- jw unless extract text from tags and run own software to create a presentation
- 21:15:52 [wendy]
- ack yvette
- 21:16:14 [wendy]
- yh could be aproblem b/c technologies that don't allow separation won't meet.
- 21:16:31 [wendy]
- yh wherever t is possible to separate struct from presentation, do so
- 21:16:32 [wendy]
- ack wendy
- 21:16:32 [Zakim]
- wendy, you wanted to say, "restyling - primarily contrast and magnification. primarily related to extracting text for restyling. doesn't make sense for gif but does for SVG,
- 21:16:35 [Zakim]
- ... MathML, voicexml. should probably apply to InkML but not clear that it does now."
- 21:18:30 [wendy]
- gv even if it did limit technolgoies, can always have something at level 3, "only use really accessible"
- 21:18:53 [wendy]
- gv the same techs that can't support this, can they meet the other things that we do have?
- 21:19:10 [wendy]
- current criteria:
- 21:19:19 [wendy]
- level 1, #1 of 1.3: Structures and relationships within the content can be derived programmatically.
- 21:19:47 [wendy]
- jw map presentation back to structure
- 21:20:37 [wendy]
- gv can dervie programmaticaly, new one says "implement in certain way"
- 21:20:46 [wendy]
- gv not what achieve, but how you can achieve
- 21:21:23 [wendy]
- gv text and restyling. in 1.3, we're saying "you can get that content out" so the AT can represent it.
- 21:21:41 [wendy]
- gv this is a tougher test b/c it is asking that you be able to attach to this that you can change it.
- 21:22:12 [wendy]
- gv presentation is implemented in a fashion that it can be changed
- 21:22:22 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- q+ to say "whether presentation can be changed is UA issue"
- 21:22:33 [wendy]
- gv make sure we stick w/text so that we don't get mixed up with graphic representation
- 21:22:38 [DoyleB]
- in wai glossary text is also defined as a representation of text (graphical) which probably cannot be changed. Just what Gregg said.
- 21:23:13 [wendy]
- q+ to say, "if text, should be level 1"
- 21:23:16 [wendy]
- ack yvette
- 21:23:16 [Zakim]
- Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "whether presentation can be changed is UA issue"
- 21:24:14 [wendy]
- ack jason
- 21:24:40 [DoyleB]
- hand up
- 21:25:17 [wendy]
- jw reformatting accordingly
- 21:25:31 [wendy]
- jw if that is the case, then wouldn't at level 1, start ruling out technologies
- 21:25:45 [wendy]
- jw doesn't give you much diff from reformatting of structure via semantics
- 21:25:54 [wendy]
- jw allows you to keep some attributes w/out losing
- 21:26:45 [wendy]
- gv if we don't have closure, recommend that we send it back to TTF (not sure what asking, not sure that 1.3 doesn't already cover)
- 21:28:06 [wendy]
- ack wendy
- 21:28:06 [Zakim]
- wendy, you wanted to say, "if text, should be level 1"
- 21:28:08 [wendy]
- ack doyle
- 21:28:40 [wendy]
- action: wendy and michael rework the proposal for new success criterion related to separating style from content (restyling, text). inc today's discussion.
- 21:28:57 [wendy]
- jw at level 3 could say "don't use raster based images..."
- 21:29:30 [wendy]
- Topic: [#828] definition of foreground and background thread begins
- 21:30:01 [wendy]
- gv only interested in text? if not, includes pictures, images over images.
- 21:30:35 [wendy]
- today's proposal from andi:
- 21:30:54 [wendy]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0011.html
- 21:31:00 [wendy]
- Background: Anything that appears behind foreground content. This
- 21:31:00 [wendy]
- could be a contrasting color, decorative material or meaningful content.
- 21:31:23 [wendy]
- restrict this guideline to text?
- 21:31:35 [wendy]
- yh any examples of issues w/contrast other than with text?
- 21:31:46 [wendy]
- q+ to say
- 21:32:04 [davious]
- davious has joined #wai-wcag
- 21:32:04 [wendy]
- q+ to say, "Cynthia Brewer's work on contrast in maps"
- 21:32:24 [DoyleB]
- hand up
- 21:32:55 [wendy]
- Color Use Guidelines for Data Representation - http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/c/a/cab38/ColorSch/ASApaper.html
- 21:33:26 [bcaldwell]
- q+
- 21:33:28 [wendy]
- ack jason
- 21:33:43 [wendy]
- jw if have vector-based format, would that allow people to solve this problem wrt images?
- 21:34:33 [wendy]
- jw are sounds excluded?
- 21:35:44 [wendy]
- js could make the defns appropriate
- 21:36:03 [wendy]
- ack wendy
- 21:36:03 [Zakim]
- wendy, you wanted to say and to say, "Cynthia Brewer's work on contrast in maps"
- 21:36:18 [GVAN]
- q+
- 21:40:47 [Zakim]
- -Sailesh_Panchang
- 21:40:57 [wendy]
- ack doyle
- 21:41:26 [MattSEA]
- MattSEA has left #wai-wcag
- 21:41:42 [wendy]
- db concerned about contrast and color issues related to information derived from graphical text
- 21:42:30 [wendy]
- wac: "accessible images" flag from John Gardner's group
- 21:42:39 [wendy]
- db whether text as text or text in image, needs to make accessible
- 21:42:46 [bcaldwell]
- q-
- 21:43:37 [wendy]
- db contrast via computer monitor, the color defns on a screen change w/in a word
- 21:43:44 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- q+ to say "text in WAI gloss is seq of chars"
- 21:43:55 [wendy]
- db if the text is large, ok. the smaller the pixels are, the harder to determine color defn.
- 21:44:05 [wendy]
- db the ability to see what is portrayed on given background
- 21:44:09 [wendy]
- ack john
- 21:44:30 [wendy]
- gv not only text, also with charts, lines, etc. not an image but data.
- 21:45:03 [wendy]
- gv if you have a chart w/a picture in the background, can see from far away but not if up close.
- 21:45:15 [wendy]
- gv perhaps image for level 3, but perhaps charts or data for level 2
- 21:45:15 [cookiecrook]
- clarification: i think the meaning was perception of color contrast based on sized rather than actual color of text. this is seperate from anti-aliasing
- 21:45:34 [wendy]
- ack gvan
- 21:45:42 [wendy]
- zakim, queue is closed
- 21:45:42 [Zakim]
- sorry, wendy, I do not recognize a party named 'queue'
- 21:45:48 [wendy]
- zakim, close q
- 21:45:48 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'close q', wendy
- 21:45:52 [wendy]
- ack yvette
- 21:45:52 [Zakim]
- Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "text in WAI gloss is seq of chars"
- 21:46:30 [wendy]
- zakim, close the queue
- 21:46:30 [Zakim]
- ok, wendy, the speaker queue is closed
- 21:47:06 [wendy]
- gv want to cover that issue, our defn excludes
- 21:47:33 [wendy]
- yh dublin core defn and normative defns.
- 21:47:46 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Link to WAI glossary: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/Glossary/printable.html#T
- 21:47:51 [wendy]
- gv our defn clarifies text equivalent
- 21:47:59 [wendy]
- gv we have to define characters
- 21:49:05 [wendy]
- wac this is related to my action item from discussion with I18N
- 21:49:07 [wendy]
- ack mike
- 21:49:22 [wendy]
- mb are we considering aliased characters to be covered?
- 21:49:56 [cookiecrook]
- q+
- 21:50:01 [wendy]
- gv if have letters made of pixels, they look jagged but if some pixels are grey instead of black, it will appear smoother.
- 21:50:32 [wendy]
- gv problem is that if you took a contrast measure of the aliased pixel againts the background, there wn't be much contrast, although the character itself has good contrast.
- 21:50:51 [wendy]
- mb character-smoothing won't effect text rendered by IE
- 21:51:26 [wendy]
- mb do we consider the ant-alias pixel to be background? if so, does this guideline outlaw this?
- 21:51:37 [wendy]
- gv will have to be clear about anti-alias pixels
- 21:51:55 [wendy]
- mb concern is that anti-alias text is difficult to read...
- 21:52:00 [wendy]
- gv ... when it is blown up
- 21:52:08 [wendy]
- s/blown up/magnified
- 21:52:56 [Andi]
- q+
- 21:54:26 [DoyleB]
- I love it too, Wendy :)
- 21:54:34 [wendy]
- mb is anti-aliasing covered by UAAG?
- 21:54:59 [wendy]
- gv if in a gif, also have alt-text
- 21:55:11 [wendy]
- gv we're talking about a level 2
- 21:55:45 [Zakim]
- -John_Slatin
- 21:55:56 [wendy]
- gv level could be edge pixels
- 21:56:39 [wendy]
- q?
- 21:56:48 [wendy]
- ack jason
- 21:57:27 [wendy]
- jw why not move forward with defn of contrast and put excemptions in the criteria.
- 21:57:30 [wendy]
- ?
- 21:58:18 [wendy]
- gv if have something in front of something, aliasing falls in-between. things are not usually just in 2 layers.
- 21:58:35 [wendy]
- jw background if nothing else behind it. foreground if nothing else in front of.
- 21:58:58 [Zakim]
- -Matt
- 21:59:24 [wendy]
- asw smooths the edges
- 21:59:34 [wendy]
- s/asw smooths/zoomtext
- 22:01:35 [wendy]
- gv "when text is in the foreground..." or "when a graphic is in the foreground..." rather than making them really general.
- 22:02:18 [wendy]
- action: gv attempt to repropose text related to foreground/background
- 22:02:41 [wendy]
- Topic: Reading order
- 22:02:49 [wendy]
- gv please think about and respond on the list.
- 22:03:18 [wendy]
- "functional reading order" somehwat better than "logical reading order" but still difficult to test.
- 22:04:16 [Zakim]
- -Andi_Snow-Weaver
- 22:04:18 [Zakim]
- -Loretta_Guarino_Reid
- 22:04:19 [Zakim]
- -Yvette_Hoitink
- 22:04:20 [Zakim]
- -JasonWhite
- 22:04:21 [Zakim]
- -Mike_Barta
- 22:04:22 [Zakim]
- -Ben-and-Gregg
- 22:04:23 [Zakim]
- -Wendy
- 22:04:24 [Zakim]
- -James_Craig
- 22:04:25 [Zakim]
- -Doyle_Burnett
- 22:04:30 [Zakim]
- -Bengt_Farre
- 22:04:31 [Zakim]
- WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has ended
- 22:04:32 [Zakim]
- Attendees were Matt, John_Slatin, Sailesh_Panchang, Bengt_Farre, Wendy, James_Craig, Ben-and-Gregg, Mike_Barta, Andi_Snow-Weaver, JasonWhite, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Doyle_Burnett,
- 22:04:34 [Zakim]
- ... Yvette_Hoitink
- 22:04:42 [wendy]
- zakim, bye
- 22:04:42 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #wai-wcag
- 22:04:46 [wendy]
- RRSAgent, bye
- 22:04:46 [RRSAgent]
- I see 3 open action items:
- 22:04:46 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: ben publish to list w/nomination that it be considered for level 2 [2]
- 22:04:46 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/07/01-wai-wcag-irc#T21-08-15
- 22:04:46 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: wendy and michael rework the proposal for new success criterion related to separating style from content (restyling, text). inc today's discussion. [3]
- 22:04:46 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/07/01-wai-wcag-irc#T21-28-40
- 22:04:46 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: gv attempt to repropose text related to foreground/background [4]
- 22:04:46 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/07/01-wai-wcag-irc#T22-02-18