IRC log of wai-wcag on 2004-06-30
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 14:04:58 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
- 14:05:12 [wendy]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 14:05:18 [MichaelC]
- rrsagent, make logs world
- 14:05:20 [Zakim]
- +Wendy
- 14:05:22 [Zakim]
- ok, bcaldwell, I now associate you with Ben
- 14:06:20 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Tom, Becky_Gibson, Jim_Thatcher, Don_Evans, Chris_Ridpath, Michael_Cooper, Tim_Boland, Sailesh_Panchang, Ben, ??P21, Wendy
- 14:06:31 [wendy]
- zakim, ??P21 is Lisa_Seeman
- 14:07:12 [Zakim]
- +Lisa_Seeman; got it
- 14:07:15 [wendy]
- agenda+ bugzilla issues
- 14:07:24 [wendy]
- Chair: Michael Cooper
- 14:07:28 [wendy]
- Scribe: Wendy Chisholm
- 14:07:40 [wendy]
- Meeting: WCAG WG Techniques Task Force
- 14:08:11 [wendy]
- jim, becky, tom - others took action items a couple of weeks ago
- 14:08:37 [wendy]
- action items: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/condensedreports/actionitems.php
- 14:08:45 [wendy]
- drop action 1
- 14:08:48 [wendy]
- RRSAgent, drop action 1
- 14:10:52 [wendy]
- use of title - it can be used to give supplementary info about links. there are some user agent issues (primarily screen reader)
- 14:12:29 [wendy]
- 365 not controversial
- 14:12:45 [wendy]
- s/365/300
- 14:12:53 [wendy]
- 265 also not controversial
- 14:13:33 [wendy]
- table summaries: sailesh sent a write-up
- 14:13:42 [wendy]
- wasn't a bug, just an action item
- 14:13:45 [wendy]
- jim also looked at
- 14:14:05 [wendy]
- Topic: action item review
- 14:14:22 [wendy]
- action: michael copy table summary info into source, discuss as part of next draft
- 14:14:38 [wendy]
- 241 had a lot of discussion
- 14:15:31 [Zakim]
- -Becky_Gibson
- 14:15:53 [sh1m]
- Becky... aved by the bell :P
- 14:16:18 [wendy]
- jim tried to integrate the suggestions into the document that he sent
- 14:18:02 [wendy]
- we have some "until user agents" issues, but in techniques provide specific user agent support information
- 14:18:18 [wendy]
- split jim's suggestions into multiple techniques?
- 14:18:46 [wendy]
- revised: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004AprJun/0769.html
- 14:23:36 [Zakim]
- +Becky_Gibson
- 14:23:46 [wendy]
- Topic: layout tables
- 14:26:06 [bcaldwell]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS/#layouttables
- 14:26:19 [wendy]
- michael summarizes discussion to date
- 14:26:28 [wendy]
- only th in data tables?
- 14:26:39 [wendy]
- any css issues related to table layout?
- 14:30:48 [wendy]
- wac attended part of diwg f2f meeting and brought up issue of data/layout tables.
- 14:31:07 [wendy]
- their approach is to say, "tables are for data. if you use a table for layout, we will process as if it is data table"
- 14:31:39 [wendy]
- the processing is related to how they slide/dice large bits of content to appear on a small screen (for example).
- 14:31:54 [wendy]
- but, we need to say something abut layout to minimize damage
- 14:32:13 [wendy]
- however, layout table techniques seem to be deprecated
- 14:35:33 [wendy]
- instead of marking as deprecated, say, "avoid layout tables"
- 14:36:04 [wendy]
- action: michael clean up layout table section of html techniques
- 14:36:29 [wendy]
- avoided discussion of summary for layout table while discussed summary for data table
- 14:36:35 [wendy]
- Topic: summary for layout tables
- 14:36:56 [wendy]
- options: should not be used at all or if used, must have null value or always used, with null value
- 14:37:36 [wendy]
- what about navigation bar?
- 14:39:45 [wendy]
- it is helpful, when reach a layout table and it says "layout table" then user can know how to navigate it.
- 14:40:43 [wendy]
- is it a technique to use the summary for other things - to write a summary.
- 14:40:53 [wendy]
- xhtml2 will have more info about role
- 14:40:56 [wendy]
- content types
- 14:41:10 [wendy]
- previous discussion about class
- 14:41:17 [wendy]
- title instead of summary
- 14:41:18 [wendy]
- ?
- 14:42:18 [wendy]
- will authors mark every table?
- 14:42:25 [wendy]
- instead, leave the flag off and assume layout
- 14:43:10 [wendy]
- most normal users will not know what "layout" and "data" tables are.
- 14:43:17 [wendy]
- unless you are aware of web accessibility
- 14:44:03 [wendy]
- don't want to say, "can't use summary" because could be step back for some users
- 14:46:46 [wendy]
- summary is specifically defined for non-visual access in the spec. if you want to provide another function, title works.
- 14:48:59 [sh1m]
- :)
- 14:49:35 [wendy]
- zakim, who's making noise?
- 14:49:45 [Zakim]
- wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Becky_Gibson (15%), Michael_Cooper (59%)
- 14:51:39 [wendy]
- move forward? get more feedback from users first? get feedback from PFWG first?
- 14:51:55 [wendy]
- move forward - incorporate into draft - and request feedback from users and PFWG on the public draft.
- 14:52:42 [wendy]
- move forward with: summary attribute may be present or not, if present must be null
- 14:53:23 [wendy]
- want to say, "null summary similar to using null alt-text?"
- 14:54:28 [wendy]
- instead, "summary normally interference when layout table, meant to describe layout of data table, providing any value is problematic. if use, must be null."
- 14:55:00 [wendy]
- agreed: don't treat it like null alt-text
- 14:55:39 [wendy]
- action: michael update html techs with layout table/summary summary attribute may be present or not, if present must be null
- 14:57:08 [wendy]
- Topic: linear reading order of tables
- 14:57:13 [wendy]
- zakim, who's making noise?
- 14:57:23 [Zakim]
- wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Becky_Gibson (13%), Michael_Cooper (37%), Lisa_Seeman (4%)
- 14:59:25 [wendy]
- add example: layout table for form where label in separate cell from form control (what about labelfor?)
- 15:00:07 [Zakim]
- -Ben
- 15:00:09 [wendy]
- add example: nested layout tables, cell-collapsing, linearization is nightmare
- 15:00:33 [wendy]
- css more likely to have reading issue than nested tables?
- 15:01:01 [wendy]
- are there any older screen readers still in use that are reading the screen? remove that editorial note.
- 15:01:17 [wendy]
- check for international tools.
- 15:01:40 [wendy]
- what about read-out-loud tools? some of the free readers read screen?
- 15:01:57 [wendy]
- some of those tools do "copy and paste" of screen and read that
- 15:03:35 [wendy]
- action: nobody find out about screen readers around the world
- 15:05:27 [wendy]
- clean up existing editorial note - need to better understand international screen readers (and other assistive technology)
- 15:08:45 [wendy]
- level 1, "unless specific reason for backwards-compatibility". layout tables are backwards-compatibility issue (partly due to lack of support in authoring tool).
- 15:09:01 [wendy]
- is it likely that people will document that use of layout tables is for backwards-compat?
- 15:09:07 [wendy]
- we agreed to avoid teh word avoid.
- 15:09:18 [wendy]
- s/teh/the
- 15:09:41 [wendy]
- action: michael map to level 3 criterion, avoid the word avoid
- 15:09:59 [wendy]
- interpretations of avoid: do not use or try not to use
- 15:10:12 [wendy]
- if map to level 3, say "do not use layout tables"
- 15:11:36 [wendy]
- really level 3?
- 15:11:54 [wendy]
- preference by some for level 2, but no success criterion to map it to
- 15:12:47 [wendy]
- if xhtml2 includes a role so that can be clearly marked, this will be level 3 and not encouraged
- 15:14:37 [wendy]
- 5.3 Do not use tables for layout unless the table makes sense when linearized. Otherwise, if the table does not make sense, provide an alternative equivalent (which may be a linearized version). [Priority 2]
- 15:14:41 [wendy]
- WCAG 1.0
- 15:16:36 [wendy]
- thus, move to level 2 for consistency with WCAG 1.0
- 15:17:37 [wendy]
- currently, "Technologies are used according to specification without exception. " is a level 3
- 15:19:28 [wendy]
- note about 640 x 840 - need to specify?
- 15:21:29 [wendy]
- Topic: review of new internal draft of HTML Techs
- 15:21:42 [wendy]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20040629/
- 15:24:26 [wendy]
- chris submitted several techniques via the techniques form.
- 15:24:52 [wendy]
- many of them include test files. michael would like to discuss level of detail and test files.
- 15:25:11 [sh1m]
- What days at the f2f with techs be discussed?
- 15:25:22 [sh1m]
- Wednesday and YThursday 14-15 July
- 15:26:01 [Zakim]
- +Shawn
- 15:26:06 [wendy]
- a change log will be published
- 15:26:23 [wendy]
- Topic: design, linking between documents
- 15:26:28 [sh1m]
- If people take time to look at the techniques, then the catagories of new techniques were put where they seemed to fit but suggestions are welcome
- 15:26:43 [wendy]
- brb
- 15:28:09 [shawn]
- slh: important to determine if need to read general tech before or with specific techs
- 15:29:31 [sh1m]
- How should the general technques change within the new structure of the document collection?
- 15:29:50 [shawn]
- people look at general as default
- 15:30:03 [ChrisR]
- See you next week. Must run.
- 15:30:06 [ChrisR]
- ChrisR has left #wai-wcag
- 15:30:15 [Zakim]
- -Chris_Ridpath
- 15:30:27 [sh1m]
- People new to accessibility need general techs people who know prefer reference without
- 15:33:39 [sh1m]
- How does this relate to the traffic cop?
- 15:33:59 [sh1m]
- If you are already familair traffic cop is good for quick reference and navigation
- 15:34:55 [sh1m]
- General is a good reference for people beginning an encyclopedia for techniques.
- 15:35:23 [sh1m]
- Part of the reason for traffic cop was link management
- 15:37:03 [wendy]
- one primary reason for general is to capture the redundant text
- 15:37:17 [wendy]
- if people go right to the tech-specific, they will miss some of the information
- 15:37:28 [wendy]
- perhaps send them to the general, but make it easy to skip that if they have already read that
- 15:38:23 [wendy]
- if someone comes w/the question, "how do i make a form accessible" that is not provided in our organization
- 15:38:39 [wendy]
- except that techniques are organized by element (rather than SC)
- 15:38:57 [wendy]
- worry that people will go to traffic cop and jump over the general stuff
- 15:39:02 [wendy]
- and they'll miss ethos
- 15:39:14 [wendy]
- link from html to general?
- 15:39:17 [wendy]
- have not designed yet
- 15:39:44 [wendy]
- that link could address the concern about missing general info
- 15:40:01 [wendy]
- we map some html techniques to more than one SC
- 15:40:07 [wendy]
- do general map to more than one criterion?
- 15:40:13 [wendy]
- breaks the design?
- 15:40:23 [wendy]
- tom trying to make as atomic as possible, but it is an issue
- 15:40:33 [wendy]
- perhaps have a primary and secondary relationships to SC?
- 15:42:55 [wendy]
- two parameters for design: if come from guidelines, want to first see the general info but want it to be easy to skip that and go right to technology-specific techniques.
- 15:43:16 [wendy]
- at the same time, if end up in a tech-specific, want to clearly link to general information related to the current technique
- 15:43:47 [wendy]
- help at guidelines level to minimize the number of links out
- 15:43:50 [wendy]
- (only link to general)
- 15:43:59 [wendy]
- perhaps general is slices, each guideline has a page of its own
- 15:44:08 [wendy]
- is traffic cop an expert tool?
- 15:44:25 [wendy]
- giving people a tool to help them jump to specific things
- 15:44:51 [wendy]
- if a "power tool" link to from the top of documents
- 15:44:58 [wendy]
- instead of a link all over the place
- 15:45:22 [wendy]
- primary path vs shortcut for experts
- 15:45:49 [wendy]
- take a specific technique and following through to see if works or not
- 15:46:14 [wendy]
- a one page doc - a table of contents - use that to go wherever you need to go
- 15:46:50 [wendy]
- important to have the document that says, "here are all of the pieces and here's how they relate"
- 15:47:21 [wendy]
- the site redesign task force are writing intro pages for various WAI items, especially WCAG
- 15:47:27 [wendy]
- part of intro in gateway?
- 15:47:39 [wendy]
- perhaps EO should start on that?
- 15:50:52 [wendy]
- action: sailesh, john, tom, and shawn talk about high-level view of document
- 15:56:33 [Zakim]
- -Tim_Boland
- 15:57:01 [wendy]
- reactions to shawn's scenarios?
- 15:57:19 [wendy]
- appreciate how often mention printing materials
- 15:57:43 [wendy]
- becky's scenarios attempted to sketch ideal paths that people might want to take.
- 15:58:00 [wendy]
- shawn: some of the scnarios are based on people i know
- 15:58:11 [wendy]
- one that people don't seem to know well is the policy scenario/persona
- 15:59:34 [wendy]
- what to do with scenarios?
- 16:01:59 [wendy]
- becky can develop more scenarios and look at how those might be different from existing.
- 16:02:19 [Zakim]
- -Jim_Thatcher
- 16:02:25 [wendy]
- field study: watch someone in their environment to see how they attempt to complete a task
- 16:02:35 [wendy]
- tom willing to talk with people at meeting next week
- 16:02:39 [wendy]
- Topic: upcoming
- 16:02:45 [wendy]
- next week: checklist prototype from ben
- 16:02:49 [wendy]
- following week: f2f
- 16:03:00 [Zakim]
- -Becky_Gibson
- 16:03:01 [Zakim]
- -Don_Evans
- 16:03:02 [Zakim]
- -Michael_Cooper
- 16:03:03 [Zakim]
- -Tom
- 16:03:04 [Zakim]
- -Lisa_Seeman
- 16:03:04 [Zakim]
- -Sailesh_Panchang
- 16:03:05 [Zakim]
- -Wendy
- 16:03:05 [donaldfevans]
- donaldfevans has left #wai-wcag
- 16:03:08 [Zakim]
- -Shawn
- 16:03:09 [Zakim]
- WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended
- 16:03:11 [Zakim]
- Attendees were Becky_Gibson, Jim_Thatcher, Don_Evans, Chris_Ridpath, Michael_Cooper, Tim_Boland, Sailesh_Panchang, Tom, Ben, Wendy, Lisa_Seeman, Shawn
- 16:09:42 [wendy]
- zakim, list conferences
- 16:09:42 [Zakim]
- I see WAI_PF()12:00PM, WS_XMLP()11:30AM active
- 16:09:43 [Zakim]
- also scheduled at this time is XML_QueryWG()12:00PM
- 16:12:04 [wendy]
- zakim, bye
- 16:12:04 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #wai-wcag
- 16:12:09 [wendy]
- RRSagent, make log world
- 16:12:13 [wendy]
- RRSAgent, bye
- 16:12:13 [RRSAgent]
- I see 6 open action items:
- 16:12:13 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: michael copy table summary info into source, discuss as part of next draft [2]
- 16:12:13 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/30-wai-wcag-irc#T14-14-22
- 16:12:13 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: michael clean up layout table section of html techniques [3]
- 16:12:13 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/30-wai-wcag-irc#T14-36-04
- 16:12:13 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: michael update html techs with layout table/summary summary attribute may be present or not, if present must be null [4]
- 16:12:13 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/30-wai-wcag-irc#T14-55-39
- 16:12:13 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: nobody find out about screen readers around the world [5]
- 16:12:13 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/30-wai-wcag-irc#T15-03-35
- 16:12:13 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: michael map to level 3 criterion, avoid the word avoid [6]
- 16:12:13 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/30-wai-wcag-irc#T15-09-41
- 16:12:13 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: sailesh, john, tom, and shawn talk about high-level view of document [7]
- 16:12:13 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/30-wai-wcag-irc#T15-50-52