IRC log of wai-wcag on 2004-06-24
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 20:03:41 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
- 20:03:45 [wendy]
- RRSAgent, make log world
- 20:03:59 [wendy]
- Chair: Gregg Vanderheiden
- 20:04:23 [wendy]
- Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004AprJun/0784.html
- 20:04:33 [Zakim]
- +??P4
- 20:04:45 [bengt]
- zakim, ??P4 is Bengt_Farre
- 20:04:45 [Zakim]
- +Bengt_Farre; got it
- 20:04:56 [bengt]
- zakim, I am Bengt_Farre
- 20:04:56 [Zakim]
- ok, bengt, I now associate you with Bengt_Farre
- 20:04:58 [wendy]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 20:04:58 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see ??P0, John_Slatin, Matt, Wendy, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Bengt_Farre
- 20:05:02 [nabe]
- zakim, ??P0 is Takayuki_Watanabe
- 20:05:02 [Zakim]
- +Takayuki_Watanabe; got it
- 20:05:03 [Zakim]
- +[Microsoft]
- 20:05:18 [bengt]
- zakim, who is making noise ?
- 20:05:28 [Zakim]
- bengt, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: John_Slatin (25%), Matt (9%), Loretta_Guarino_Reid (25%), Bengt_Farre (15%), [Microsoft] (86%)
- 20:05:52 [wendy]
- zakim, [Microsoft] is Mike_Barta
- 20:05:52 [Zakim]
- +Mike_Barta; got it
- 20:05:53 [Zakim]
- +??P5
- 20:05:55 [rscano]
- rscano has joined #wai-wcag
- 20:05:58 [bengt]
- zakim, who is making noise ?
- 20:06:01 [rellero]
- zakim, ??P5 is Roberto_Ellero
- 20:06:01 [Zakim]
- +Roberto_Ellero; got it
- 20:06:10 [Zakim]
- bengt, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Takayuki_Watanabe (9%), John_Slatin (33%), Loretta_Guarino_Reid (4%), ??P5 (17%), Wendy (39%)
- 20:06:12 [rellero]
- zakim, mute me
- 20:06:13 [Zakim]
- sorry, rellero, I do not see a party named 'rellero'
- 20:06:14 [Zakim]
- +??P7
- 20:06:28 [rellero]
- zakim, rellero is Roberto_Ellero
- 20:06:28 [Zakim]
- sorry, rellero, I do not recognize a party named 'rellero'
- 20:06:31 [bcaldwell]
- bcaldwell has joined #wai-wcag
- 20:06:40 [rscano]
- hi from rscano *mobile edition :-)
- 20:06:46 [rellero]
- :-)
- 20:06:47 [wendy]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 20:06:47 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Takayuki_Watanabe, John_Slatin, Matt, Wendy, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Bengt_Farre, Mike_Barta, Roberto_Ellero, ??P7
- 20:06:53 [wendy]
- zakim, mute Roberto_Ellero
- 20:06:53 [Zakim]
- Roberto_Ellero should now be muted
- 20:06:59 [rellero]
- :-)
- 20:07:08 [wendy]
- zakim, ??P7 is Gregg_Vanderheiden_and_Ben_Caldwell
- 20:07:08 [Zakim]
- +Gregg_Vanderheiden_and_Ben_Caldwell; got it
- 20:07:17 [GVAN]
- GVAN has joined #wai-wcag
- 20:08:09 [Zakim]
- +Katie_Haritos-Shea
- 20:08:10 [wendy]
- Regrets: Avi Arditti, Roberto Scano, Andy Judston, Roberto Castaldo, Gian Sampson-Wild, Doyle Burnett, Andi Snow-Weaver, Becky Gibson
- 20:08:41 [wendy]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 20:08:41 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Takayuki_Watanabe, John_Slatin, Matt, Wendy, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Bengt_Farre, Mike_Barta, Roberto_Ellero (muted), Gregg_Vanderheiden_and_Ben_Caldwell,
- 20:08:44 [Zakim]
- ... Katie_Haritos-Shea
- 20:09:36 [wendy]
- +Christian_Buehler
- 20:10:21 [wendy]
- Christian, et al comments at: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-comments-wcag20/2004May/0003.html
- 20:11:13 [wendy]
- Scribe: Wendy Chisholm
- 20:11:25 [wendy]
- CB WCAG 1.0 adopted as standard in Germany.
- 20:11:48 [wendy]
- people argued that document from 1999 is too old for a document to be adopted in 2002. Now, 2004, similar argument.
- 20:12:10 [wendy]
- In 1.0, there are some time-dependent issues (e.g., "until user agents.")
- 20:12:41 [wendy]
- everyone waiting for 2.0, however don't know when available. thus we went for 1.0.
- 20:13:17 [wendy]
- how quickly will 2.0 be published? possible to publish 1.0 errata before 2.0 becomes recommendation?
- 20:13:36 [wendy]
- gv we have looked at issue with taking a 1.1 through recommendation process.
- 20:13:50 [wendy]
- worried that it will set 2.0 back further (if we focus on 1.1)
- 20:15:43 [wendy]
- also, want to avoid confusion between 1.0, 1.1, and 2.0. enough confusion around 1.0 and 2.0.
- 20:15:58 [wendy]
- desirable to adopt wcag w/out specifying a version number?
- 20:16:14 [wendy]
- so that adopt whatever is current at the given time.
- 20:17:55 [wendy]
- or create a mechanism to migrate to 2.0 once it is available.
- 20:18:05 [wendy]
- difficult b/c it is not published by ISO or CEN.
- 20:18:56 [wendy]
- have a clause that says will revisit technical standards over time or if sig. chnges occur in environment.
- 20:19:04 [wendy]
- s/chgnes/changes
- 20:19:11 [wendy]
- however, that does not mean it is adopted automatically.
- 20:19:21 [wendy]
- we could go through all of these discussions again.
- 20:19:30 [wendy]
- worry about ability to convince government a second time.
- 20:19:54 [wendy]
- W3C Recommendations are "real" standards, e.g., HTML, XML.
- 20:20:18 [wendy]
- However, there has been some discussion about taking WCAG 2.0 through ISO process.
- 20:20:31 [wendy]
- Some WCAG 1.0 checkpoints had to be reworded into legislative language.
- 20:20:35 [wendy]
- e.g., "until user agents"
- 20:20:54 [wendy]
- Similar to 508 issue.
- 20:22:03 [wendy]
- We are trying to write in such a way that can be adopted in policy and to avoid every country rewording to meet their needs.
- 20:22:20 [wendy]
- Related to the "official translation" issue.
- 20:22:29 [wendy]
- Know that is being discussed.
- 20:23:06 [wendy]
- Understand don't want to publish 1.1, but useful to have clarifications, e.g., about until user agent checkpoints.
- 20:23:57 [wendy]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/Resources/WAI-UA-Support
- 20:24:43 [Zakim]
- +Michael_Cooper
- 20:25:13 [MichaelC]
- MichaelC has joined #wai-wcag
- 20:25:19 [MichaelC]
- zakim, I am Michael_Cooper
- 20:25:19 [Zakim]
- ok, MichaelC, I now associate you with Michael_Cooper
- 20:25:23 [MichaelC]
- zakim, mute me
- 20:25:23 [Zakim]
- Michael_Cooper should now be muted
- 20:26:12 [wendy]
- wac we have 3 options (not mutually exclusive):
- 20:26:24 [wendy]
- 1. update user agent accessibility page (http://www.w3.org/WAI/Resources/WAI-UA-Support)
- 20:28:08 [wendy]
- 2. update errata page (with informative errata) http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WAI-WEBCONTENT-ERRATA
- 20:28:55 [wendy]
- 3. publish revised edition of WCAG 1.0 that deprecates *some* of the until user agent checkpoints (don't think we can do all) - only do if don't have to go through entire Rec process)
- 20:29:47 [wendy]
- produced a matching document between 1.0 and 2.0. expected close match between p1 in 1.0 and level 1 in 2.0.
- 20:29:52 [wendy]
- needed to make migration easy
- 20:30:02 [wendy]
- our mapping is more detailed than your mapping
- 20:30:21 [wendy]
- need a document that says "migrate from 1.0 to 2.0... here's what you do"
- 20:30:33 [wendy]
- stronger requirements, weaker, deprecated
- 20:31:02 [wendy]
- we intend to provide that information - not only for people to use, but to ensure we've done our job well.
- 20:32:15 [wendy]
- felt that some criteria are refering to UAAG, because UAAG not adopted in legislation.
- 20:32:26 [wendy]
- enforcement only on WCAG not UAAG
- 20:32:37 [wendy]
- if transfer responsiblities to UAAG, it goes into a "grey zone"
- 20:33:03 [wendy]
- 2.2 level 2 (stop or pause content)
- 20:33:47 [wendy]
- problem is not referencing other guidelines, but making assumptions about user agent
- 20:34:29 [wendy]
- if we don't make any assumptions about what the user's tools can do, then author has a lot more work to do. how do you propose we address that?
- 20:34:53 [wendy]
- ok to make assumptions about what they currently do, not what they *might* do
- 20:35:37 [wendy]
- there will always be a browser that is broken. does that mean that we must always plan for the worst case?
- 20:35:59 [wendy]
- in germany, made a timeline that said "everything older than 3 years, need not be taken care of"
- 20:37:29 [wendy]
- what about other technologies, not just html? what about upcoming technologies and that wcag 2.0 will be around for ~5 years? what about pushing user agents and asst techs to do what they are supposed to do?
- 20:37:37 [wendy]
- ack wendy
- 20:38:38 [wendy]
- we want to remove the barriers as much as possible. if i assume something that may not happen, then there is no guarantee.
- 20:39:02 [MichaelC]
- q+
- 20:39:09 [MichaelC]
- ack Michael
- 20:39:26 [wendy]
- q+ to ask, "support for standards."
- 20:39:32 [wendy]
- difference between techniques and guidelines.
- 20:39:46 [MichaelC]
- zakim, mute me
- 20:39:46 [Zakim]
- Michael_Cooper should now be muted
- 20:41:48 [wendy]
- ack wendy
- 20:41:48 [Zakim]
- wendy, you wanted to ask, "support for standards."
- 20:42:25 [wendy]
- adoption by government creates need for people to follow.
- 20:42:41 [wendy]
- if people feel it is too heavy, business can create pressure to ease the burden.
- 20:45:17 [wendy]
- however, atag and uaag not likely to be adopted by governments...although 508 does include software accessibility guidelines that are related/directly map to aspects of atag and uaag.
- 20:47:00 [RylaDog]
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- 20:47:09 [RylaDog]
- q
- 20:47:23 [wendy]
- what does it mean, "techniques are informative"
- 20:47:28 [wendy]
- q+ katie
- 20:47:48 [wendy]
- gv explains guidelines, techniques, and checklists
- 20:47:58 [wendy]
- issues related to making checklists normative
- 20:49:52 [wendy]
- ack katie
- 20:53:08 [wendy]
- related to atag/uaag in law, people are validating more b/c of internal policies. perhaps by default, browsers will support standards.
- 20:53:56 [wendy]
- wrt tables, they are not technology-dependent. they are a feature of presenting information.
- 20:54:02 [wendy]
- thus, they should be part of the guidelines.
- 20:55:06 [wendy]
- ack john
- 20:55:11 [Zakim]
- -Roberto_Ellero
- 20:55:23 [wendy]
- the place where tables is covered, they are covered abstractly - using structural elements.
- 20:57:08 [wendy]
- because it was a big point in 1.0 and basically vanished in 2.0
- 21:01:36 [wendy]
- Topic: Guideline 1.1
- 21:03:40 [wendy]
- new proposal:
- 21:03:56 [wendy]
- 1. collapses information from criteria into defn of equivalent
- 21:04:12 [wendy]
- 2. removed "exception" (sensory experience) by incorporating into success criteria
- 21:04:29 [wendy]
- 3. instead of "a text equiv" to "equiv alternative" which collapses 1.2 into 1.1
- 21:05:09 [wendy]
- this syncs w/guideline 1 in 1.0
- 21:05:47 [wendy]
- in 1.0, multimedia subset of guideline 1.1.
- 21:06:14 [wendy]
- ack Mike
- 21:07:06 [wendy]
- 1.2 seems much broader and concern about comibning w/1.1
- 21:07:07 [wendy]
- ack john
- 21:07:11 [GVAN]
- Q+
- 21:07:40 [wendy]
- instead of dividing line being multimedia, if there is time-based material then synch audio description under 1.2 and keep separate
- 21:08:27 [wendy]
- level 3 under 1.1 (text doc that includes descriptions) - is providing a text equiv for the equivalents in 1.2
- 21:09:47 [wendy]
- radio show is time-dependent, but no need to sync equivalents
- 21:10:04 [Zakim]
- +??P5
- 21:10:20 [wendy]
- zakim, ??P5 is Kerstin_Goldsmith
- 21:10:20 [Zakim]
- +Kerstin_Goldsmith; got it
- 21:11:15 [wendy]
- breaking proposal into 3 parts:
- 21:12:10 [wendy]
- 1. consensus: remove the phrase, "serve the same purpose or convey the same information"
- 21:13:22 [wendy]
- 2. consensus: remove the phrase, "except when the sole purpose...is to create a sensory experience..."
- 21:14:38 [wendy]
- 3. use "non-text equivalents" instead of "equivalent alternatives" which moves audio description into 1.1
- 21:14:40 [wendy]
- ??
- 21:14:43 [wendy]
- discussion:
- 21:14:59 [wendy]
- then, do all images have to be described w/an audio file?
- 21:15:05 [wendy]
- ack gvan
- 21:15:36 [wendy]
- ack john
- 21:16:09 [wendy]
- doesn't say, "provide equivalent alternatives for visual content"
- 21:16:19 [wendy]
- success criteria would discuss types of content
- 21:16:37 [wendy]
- e.g., SC 1, level 1 talks about text alternatives, there are 3 things under that that are more specific.
- 21:17:03 [GVAN]
- Q+
- 21:18:47 [wendy]
- q+ to ask "why only move audio description and not also captions?"
- 21:20:05 [wendy]
- ack wendy
- 21:20:05 [Zakim]
- wendy, you wanted to ask "why only move audio description and not also captions?"
- 21:23:42 [wendy]
- 1.1 uses "text equivalents" and 1.2 is about multimedia/interactive
- 21:27:21 [wendy]
- alternative vs equivalent - people's feelings?
- 21:27:35 [bengt]
- Mime multipart actually defines it as alternative
- 21:27:56 [wendy]
- "text alternative" is more appropriate, since not actually writing an "equivalent" for a painting
- 21:28:27 [wendy]
- consensus: use "text alternative" instead of "text equivalent"
- 21:28:33 [Zakim]
- -Michael_Cooper
- 21:29:28 [RylaDog]
- RylaDog has left #wai-wcag
- 21:30:09 [bcaldwell]
- bcaldwell has joined #wai-wcag
- 21:33:30 [wendy]
- define "explicitly associated?" remove "programatically"?
- 21:34:17 [wendy]
- txt alt are explicitly associated (link) w/non-text content and 1 of the following is true...
- 21:35:02 [wendy]
- non-text content that does not provide info or functionality can be ignored by asst. tech
- 21:35:21 [wendy]
- "is marked in a fashion...to be ignored?"
- 21:36:10 [wendy]
- this is d, "non-text content that does not provide function or information is marked such that it can be ignored..."
- 21:36:53 [wendy]
- ... =
- 21:37:01 [wendy]
- functionality or information...by asst technologies
- 21:38:36 [wendy]
- adopted other proposed wording
- 21:38:40 [wendy]
- thanks john and mike!
- 21:38:52 [Zakim]
- -Loretta_Guarino_Reid
- 21:38:54 [Zakim]
- -Mike_Barta
- 21:38:55 [Zakim]
- -Kerstin_Goldsmith
- 21:38:56 [Zakim]
- -Wendy
- 21:38:56 [Zakim]
- -John_Slatin
- 21:38:57 [Zakim]
- -??P7
- 21:38:58 [Zakim]
- -Katie_Haritos-Shea
- 21:38:59 [Zakim]
- -Matt
- 21:39:04 [Zakim]
- -Bengt_Farre
- 21:39:07 [Zakim]
- -Takayuki_Watanabe
- 21:39:08 [Zakim]
- WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has ended
- 21:39:09 [Zakim]
- Attendees were John_Slatin, Matt, Wendy, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Bengt_Farre, Takayuki_Watanabe, Mike_Barta, Roberto_Ellero, Gregg_Vanderheiden_and_Ben_Caldwell, Katie_Haritos-Shea,
- 21:39:11 [Zakim]
- ... Michael_Cooper, Kerstin_Goldsmith
- 21:39:28 [bengt]
- bengt has left #wai-wcag
- 21:39:48 [nabe]
- nabe has left #wai-wcag
- 21:47:47 [wendy]
- zakim, bye
- 21:47:47 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #wai-wcag
- 21:47:53 [wendy]
- RRSAgent, bye
- 21:47:53 [RRSAgent]
- I see no action items