IRC log of wai-wcag on 2004-06-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:56:09 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag

13:56:19 [sh1m]

Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG

13:56:19 [Zakim]

ok, sh1m; I see WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes

13:58:59 [MichaelC]

MichaelC has joined #wai-wcag

13:59:42 [Zakim]

WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has now started

13:59:49 [Zakim]

+Jim_Thatcher

14:00:03 [Zakim]

+[Microsoft]

14:00:04 [Zakim]

+Becky_Gibson

14:00:22 [Zakim]

-Becky_Gibson

14:00:24 [MichaelC]

rrsagent, make logs world-visible

14:00:24 [MichaelC]

just in case nobody did that yet

14:00:24 [MichaelC]

my connection keeps dropping today

14:00:27 [JimT]

JimT has joined #wai-wcag

14:01:01 [Zakim]

+??P4

14:01:02 [Zakim]

+Michael_Cooper

14:01:07 [Zakim]

+??P6

14:01:19 [bcaldwell]

zakim, ??P4 is Ben

14:01:19 [Zakim]

+Ben; got it

14:01:24 [Becky]

Becky has joined #wai-wcag

14:01:25 [MichaelC]

zakim, [Microsoft] is temporarily Jenae_Andershonis

14:01:25 [Zakim]

+Jenae_Andershonis; got it

14:01:32 [bcaldwell]

zakim, ??P6 is David

14:01:33 [Zakim]

+David; got it

14:01:47 [MichaelC]

zakim, ??P6 is David_MacDonald

14:01:47 [Zakim]

I already had ??P6 as David, MichaelC

14:01:50 [Zakim]

+??P8

14:02:08 [bcaldwell]

zakim, ??P8 is Tom

14:02:08 [Zakim]

+Tom; got it

14:02:15 [Zakim]

+Chris_Ridpath

14:02:34 [Zakim]

+Becky_Gibson

14:02:47 [bcaldwell]

zakim, who is on the phone?

14:02:47 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Jim_Thatcher, Jenae_Andershonis, Michael_Cooper, Ben, David, Tom, Chris_Ridpath, Becky_Gibson

14:03:08 [sh1m]

Zakim, I am Tom

14:03:08 [Zakim]

ok, sh1m, I now associate you with Tom

14:03:15 [ChrisR]

ChrisR has joined #wai-wcag

14:03:20 [bcaldwell]

zakim, I am Ben

14:03:20 [Zakim]

ok, bcaldwell, I now associate you with Ben

14:03:48 [Zakim]

+Sailesh_Panchang

14:03:54 [Zakim]

+Wendy

14:04:08 [MichaelC]

zakim, who's on the phone?

14:04:08 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Jim_Thatcher, Jenae_Andershonis, Michael_Cooper, Ben, David, Tom, Chris_Ridpath, Becky_Gibson, Sailesh_Panchang, Wendy

14:04:40 [wendy]

wendy has joined #wai-wcag

14:04:57 [wendy]

zakim, who's on the call?

14:04:57 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Jim_Thatcher, Jenae_Andershonis, Michael_Cooper, Ben, David, Tom, Chris_Ridpath, Becky_Gibson, Sailesh_Panchang, Wendy

14:05:14 [wendy]

RRSAgent, make log world

14:06:38 [MichaelC]

--html techniques--

14:06:40 [MichaelC]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004AprJun/att-0593/2004-06-07gl-to-htmltech_notes.html

14:10:25 [MichaelC]

action: Michael create "don't use layout table" maps to 4.1.1.1

14:11:12 [Becky]

Becky has joined #wai-wcag

14:11:20 [MichaelC]

where do you say you had to violate spec in 4.1?

14:11:31 [MichaelC]

table summary? nightmare!

14:11:37 [MichaelC]

accessibility statement

14:12:04 [MichaelC_]

MichaelC_ has joined #wai-wcag

14:15:45 [Zakim]

+??P21

14:17:35 [bcaldwell]

zakim ??P21 is Lisa

14:17:42 [sh1m]

Zakim, ??p21 is Lisa

14:17:42 [Zakim]

+Lisa; got it

14:17:43 [MichaelC_]

action: Michael ask larger group about how to document you used layout tables and it's ok

14:19:40 [MichaelC_]

ascii art does not map to 4.1.3.1

14:21:52 [MichaelC_]

does doctype map to 4.1.1.1?

14:23:11 [MichaelC]

action: Michael create technique for misuse of lists, maps to 4.1.3.1

14:24:01 [MichaelC]

action: Michael map doctype to 4.1.1.1

14:25:31 [MichaelC]

quality of alt text, e.g., misusing to pad search engine results

14:26:14 [MichaelC]

action: Michael propose technique for abuse of alt text maps to 4.1.1.1

14:30:32 [MichaelC]

action: Michael raise question about plugins (4.2.1.1) to larger group

14:30:39 [wendy]

brb

14:33:01 [MichaelC]

text equivalents in HTML if the plugin is accessible?

14:35:03 [MichaelC]

agenda+ text equivalents in HTML if plugin accessible

14:35:23 [MichaelC]

agenda+ whether to permit layout tables or not, at what levels, etc.

14:38:05 [wendy]

4.2 level 2 - alt attribute of img is an accessibility convention of html

14:40:12 [MichaelC]

action: Michael go to larger group about 4.2.2.1

14:40:28 [wendy]

- if an accessibility feature, use it?

14:41:24 [wendy]

is something inaccessible if it uses conventions of the markup, but as an alternative? (i.e., using rdf)

14:42:22 [wendy]

could be misused to declare things that either isn't the best alternative or is somebody's requirement

14:42:37 [wendy]

e.g., someone creates an api for markup and it is not the best, then you are required to use it.

14:43:06 [wendy]

e.g., longdesc. pg w/image and description of the image. this criterion imply have to use longdesc even though may make sense to have image followed by description.

14:47:16 [bcaldwell]

brb

14:47:31 [Zakim]

-Sailesh_Panchang

14:48:09 [wendy]

spirit is that the accessibility conventions have been created or reviewed by people who know about accessibility issues.

14:48:21 [wendy]

related to discussion about quality assurance discussion?

14:48:39 [wendy]

related to discussion about quality assurance?

14:49:53 [MichaelC]

action 7 = Michael go to larger group about 4.2.2.1 (input from Lisa, Tom)

14:50:41 [Zakim]

+Sailesh_Panchang

14:50:43 [wendy]

4.2.3.1 eventually, may have technique, don't think we have one now

14:51:16 [wendy]

4.2.3.2 these techs do not include htmL?

14:51:46 [wendy]

e.g., wireless markup site that points to html doc that your wireless device can't support.

14:52:38 [wendy]

can't say just html, b/c nothing to say that html will continue to be primary technology (xhtml, xforms)

14:52:51 [wendy]

only thing totally comply: start w/plain text and work upwards.

14:53:17 [wendy]

how relevant is this success criterion? any direct effect on html?

14:53:34 [wendy]

perhaps we have general concerns about 4.2

14:54:54 [MichaelC]

action 7 = Michael go to larger group about 4.2 (input from Lisa, Tom)

14:56:10 [wendy]

won't go through the other view of the mapping now. but it is available.

14:56:23 [wendy]

bugzilla issues

14:57:58 [wendy]

our tinyurl is: http://tinyurl.com/2e5zw

14:58:33 [bcaldwell]

or add 241, 246, 265, 300, 464 to http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/

14:59:22 [wendy]

652, 655

15:00:04 [wendy]

we are looking for volunteers for these bugs:

15:00:04 [wendy]

http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=241

15:00:52 [wendy]

action jim - issue 241

15:01:04 [wendy]

action: jim - issue 241

15:01:19 [wendy]

http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=246

15:01:43 [wendy]

e.g., a site that has 20 links at the top, no structure to skip past the link would be ineffective grouping.

15:01:51 [wendy]

action: becky issue 246

15:02:19 [wendy]

http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=265

15:03:35 [wendy]

265 write a proposal about use of title.

15:04:07 [wendy]

tied to the UAAG problem related to acronym. UAAG says ok to render title in place of content. JAWS has a checkbox (read or don't) but doesn't read both).

15:04:09 [wendy]

can't rely on today.

15:05:35 [wendy]

current situation versus ideal situation. look at html spec, uaag, asst. tech support.

15:05:54 [wendy]

action: sailesh issue 265

15:07:02 [wendy]

action 10 = jim and sailesh issue 265

15:07:14 [wendy]

http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=300

15:08:13 [wendy]

use title? effect on other form labeling techniques.

15:08:27 [wendy]

action: sailesh issue 300

15:09:05 [wendy]

action 11 = jim and sailesh issue 300

15:09:24 [wendy]

http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=464

15:09:33 [wendy]

action: michael 464

15:09:56 [wendy]

http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=652

15:10:26 [wendy]

want separate techniques for when to use title or not

15:12:30 [wendy]

action: michael take 652 to divide title technique into multiple techniques

15:13:02 [wendy]

http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=655

15:13:26 [wendy]

action: becky issue 655

15:21:19 [MichaelC]

-- css technique mapping --

15:21:20 [MichaelC]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004AprJun/att-0649/css-tech-map.html

15:22:16 [sh1m]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-CSS-TECHS-20040615.html

15:25:03 [wendy]

ben's latest update of general, html, and css: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2004/06/02-sc-techniques-mapping.html

15:25:55 [wendy]

notice that css primarily maps to guidelines: 1.3, 1.4, 4.2 (as well as 1.1 and others, but primarily centered around these)

15:27:49 [wendy]

fallback font: what is the accessibility issue? could choose a system font, that could be monospace or unreadable.

15:27:57 [wendy]

We don't say anything about selecting readable fonts, specifically. We were supposed to add an issue related to the JIS guidelines and their requirement for selecting readable fonts. (@@add issue to bugzilla)

15:29:40 [Zakim]

-Chris_Ridpath

15:29:54 [wendy]

q1: accessibility issue? not sure

15:30:10 [sh1m]

are the css wg looking at this

15:30:19 [Zakim]

+Chris_Ridpath

15:30:41 [sh1m]

while its good that we are looking at best practice, there may be better vehicles for this for things which are accessibility issues

15:30:44 [wendy]

a section of reference that links to "general good practice" that aren't necessarily related to accessibility

15:30:47 [sh1m]

aren't

15:31:40 [wendy]

action: wendy create "good practice" section that links to other references. move "fallback font" technique to that section.

15:32:00 [sh1m]

1.2 Specifying Font Characteristics

15:33:16 [sh1m]

First thing that happened working on the HTML draft, was to take techniques and break them down. This techniques specify too much.

15:33:28 [sh1m]

q: How atomic do the CSS techs need to be?

15:34:07 [sh1m]

There are often multiple SC associated with single techniques

15:34:56 [sh1m]

There is a direct relationship with the HTML techniques which we are not sure how to represent just yet in the mapping.

15:38:22 [sh1m]

This mapping, with blindness and screen readers it is as easy to find out what the colour is and the font size is. Should this relate to 1.2?

15:39:26 [sh1m]

This is specific to text fonts and we can expand to audio later

15:39:45 [sh1m]

This is all appropriate structure is being used, which is a relationship with HTML/XML etc

15:40:22 [sh1m]

Maybe there is a different technique which asks are you adding colour to a specific 'type' (class)

15:41:03 [sh1m]

1.2, 1.5, 1.7, 1.8

15:41:04 [wendy]

technique specific to adding color to specific type or class?

15:41:20 [sh1m]

relate to colour

15:41:30 [wendy]

action: wendy remove mapping from css: 1.2 to wcag: 1.3

15:41:50 [wendy]

what's missing: when you should be using color. relates to emphasizing structure.

15:42:16 [wendy]

what's a good default font? default font size? good default width for text container?

15:42:36 [wendy]

what presentations are more accessible.

15:42:59 [sh1m]

people can override the css

15:43:37 [sh1m]

but there are still principles you should use to ensure that the default css is usable

15:43:49 [wendy]

action: wendy and lisa look at css techniques to help make content more readable (guideline 3.1)

15:44:15 [sh1m]

1.3: HTML elements to control fonts

15:44:51 [wendy]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-CSS-TECHS-20040615.html#html-non-deprecated

15:45:04 [sh1m]

Could move to HTML techniques

15:45:48 [sh1m]

Relates to 4.1 and 4.2, appropriate mapping but not in the right place

15:45:53 [wendy]

action: wendy cut and michael paste

15:46:19 [wendy]

action 18 - wendy cut css:1.3 and michael paste into html tech

15:46:26 [wendy]

action: 18 - wendy cut css:1.3 and michael paste into html tech

15:46:35 [wendy]

RRSAgent, drop action 18

15:46:47 [wendy]

action 19 = wendy cut css:1.3 and michael paste into html tech

15:48:08 [wendy]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-CSS-TECHS-20040615.html#number-not-name

15:48:33 [wendy]

sometimes people use names that browsers don't support or support inconsistently

15:48:47 [wendy]

change this to: use the names provided in the css 2.1 spec

15:49:07 [wendy]

list of 16? colors

15:50:16 [sh1m]

only use colours in the spec

15:50:30 [wendy]

action: wendy use the names provided by the 2.1 spec (if you use color names, use the ones in the spec). maps to "use tech according to spec". don't need to mention numbers at all (best practices - web safe palette?)

15:51:01 [wendy]

no longer maps to 1.3

15:53:18 [sh1m]

ack sorry boss talking to me

15:54:06 [wendy]

flow from html to css and general. html says "use css to specify color" send to css tutorial or to css techs or to general?

15:54:17 [wendy]

in case of specifying background/foreground - general

15:54:24 [wendy]

contrast - general

15:54:40 [wendy]

specifying colors - css spec or tutorial ... other resources

15:55:24 [wendy]

level is different b/c you are in css. user can override foreground/background combo easily.

15:55:33 [sh1m]

what about mixed styles sheets between user style sheets and author ones

15:56:48 [sh1m]

interesting to send people to the css techniques to remind them of things to consider while doing your css. most concerns in HTML

15:58:00 [sh1m]

mabye has css which mix into various techniques documents

15:59:16 [sh1m]

1.5, should this be removed and point to a css tutorial from HTML?

15:59:22 [sh1m]

Yes

15:59:23 [wendy]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-CSS-TECHS-20040615.html#css-colors

15:59:35 [wendy]

move to html and point to css spec or css tutorial

15:59:37 [sh1m]

MichaelC, note time :)

16:00:22 [wendy]

placeholder: css tech that says, "as writing css, if specify color for thes type of things...structure in html should be..."

16:00:28 [Zakim]

-Lisa

16:00:48 [wendy]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-CSS-TECHS-20040615.html#good-contrast

16:00:52 [sh1m]

1.6, Foregroud background contrast

16:00:53 [wendy]

move to general techs?

16:01:24 [wendy]

link from css to general for this issue?

16:01:27 [wendy]

for now: delete

16:01:39 [wendy]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-CSS-TECHS-20040615.html#specify-fore-and-back

16:01:56 [sh1m]

1.7 Specifying fore- and background colors

16:01:58 [wendy]

move to general techs. link from css to general? for now: delete

16:02:56 [wendy]

next week: finish css mapping start w/1.8. finish discussion about tying documents together. review new internal HTML WD.

16:03:21 [Zakim]

-Jenae_Andershonis

16:03:46 [bcaldwell]

To create an account:

16:03:54 [Zakim]

-Jim_Thatcher

16:03:55 [Zakim]

-Becky_Gibson

16:03:56 [Zakim]

-Tom

16:03:57 [Zakim]

-Sailesh_Panchang

16:03:58 [Zakim]

-Wendy

16:03:59 [Zakim]

-Michael_Cooper

16:03:59 [bcaldwell]

got to http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/

16:04:00 [Zakim]

-Ben

16:04:01 [Zakim]

-Chris_Ridpath

16:04:02 [Zakim]

-David

16:04:03 [Zakim]

WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended

16:04:03 [MichaelC]

agenda?

16:04:05 [Zakim]

Attendees were Jim_Thatcher, Becky_Gibson, Michael_Cooper, Ben, Jenae_Andershonis, David, Tom, Chris_Ridpath, Sailesh_Panchang, Wendy, Lisa

16:04:20 [bcaldwell]

select "Open a new WCAG Bugzilla Account"

16:05:03 [sh1m]

right i am off home

16:05:08 [sh1m]

back in a bit

16:41:24 [sh1mmer]

Zakim, bye

16:41:24 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #wai-wcag

16:41:32 [sh1mmer]

RRSAgent, bye

16:41:32 [RRSAgent]

I see 19 open action items:

16:41:32 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Michael create "don't use layout table" maps to 4.1.1.1 [1]

16:41:32 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/16-wai-wcag-irc#T14-10-25

16:41:32 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Michael ask larger group about how to document you used layout tables and it's ok [2]

16:41:32 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/16-wai-wcag-irc#T14-17-43

16:41:32 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Michael create technique for misuse of lists, maps to 4.1.3.1 [3]

16:41:32 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/16-wai-wcag-irc#T14-23-11

16:41:32 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Michael map doctype to 4.1.1.1 [4]

16:41:32 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/16-wai-wcag-irc#T14-24-01

16:41:32 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Michael propose technique for abuse of alt text maps to 4.1.1.1 [5]

16:41:32 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/16-wai-wcag-irc#T14-26-14

16:41:32 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Michael raise question about plugins (4.2.1.1) to larger group [6]

16:41:32 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/16-wai-wcag-irc#T14-30-32

16:41:32 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Michael go to larger group about 4.2 (input from Lisa, Tom) [7]

16:41:32 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/16-wai-wcag-irc#T14-40-12

16:41:32 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: jim - issue 241 [8]

16:41:32 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/16-wai-wcag-irc#T15-01-04

16:41:32 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: becky issue 246 [9]

16:41:32 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/16-wai-wcag-irc#T15-01-51

16:41:32 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: jim and sailesh issue 265 [10]

16:41:32 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/16-wai-wcag-irc#T15-05-54

16:41:32 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: jim and sailesh issue 300 [11]

16:41:32 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/16-wai-wcag-irc#T15-08-27

16:41:32 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: michael 464 [12]

16:41:32 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/16-wai-wcag-irc#T15-09-33

16:41:32 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: michael take 652 to divide title technique into multiple techniques [13]

16:41:32 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/16-wai-wcag-irc#T15-12-30

16:41:32 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: becky issue 655 [14]

16:41:32 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/16-wai-wcag-irc#T15-13-26

16:41:32 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: wendy create "good practice" section that links to other references. move "fallback font" technique to that section. [15]

16:41:32 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/16-wai-wcag-irc#T15-31-40

16:41:32 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: wendy remove mapping from css: 1.2 to wcag: 1.3 [16]

16:41:32 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/16-wai-wcag-irc#T15-41-30

16:41:32 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: wendy and lisa look at css techniques to help make content more readable (guideline 3.1) [17]

16:41:32 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/16-wai-wcag-irc#T15-43-49

16:41:32 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: wendy cut css:1.3 and michael paste into html tech [19]

16:41:32 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/16-wai-wcag-irc#T15-46-26

16:41:32 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: wendy use the names provided by the 2.1 spec (if you use color names, use the ones in the spec). maps to "use tech according to spec". don't need to mention numbers at all (best practices - web safe palette?) [20]

16:41:32 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/16-wai-wcag-irc#T15-50-30