IRC log of wai-wcag on 2004-06-10
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 19:54:36 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
- 19:55:30 [nabe]
- nabe has joined #wai-wcag
- 19:55:44 [nabe]
- good morning
- 19:55:53 [rscano]
- good evening (from Venice) :)
- 19:57:00 [Zakim]
- WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has now started
- 19:57:07 [Zakim]
- +??P2
- 19:57:11 [rellero]
- rellero has joined #wai-wcag
- 19:57:20 [rellero]
- Hi
- 19:57:24 [rscano]
- hi
- 19:57:52 [Zakim]
- +??P0
- 19:58:09 [bengt]
- zakim, ??p0 is Bengt_Farre
- 19:58:09 [Zakim]
- +Bengt_Farre; got it
- 19:58:29 [Becky]
- Becky has joined #wai-wcag
- 19:58:40 [Zakim]
- +??P3
- 19:58:52 [rscano]
- zakim, ??P3 is Roberto_Scano
- 19:58:52 [Zakim]
- +Roberto_Scano; got it
- 19:58:53 [bengt]
- zakim, I am Bengt_Farre
- 19:58:53 [Zakim]
- ok, bengt, I now associate you with Bengt_Farre
- 19:58:57 [rscano]
- zakim, I am Roberto_Scano
- 19:58:57 [Zakim]
- ok, rscano, I now associate you with Roberto_Scano
- 19:58:58 [bengt]
- zakim, mute me
- 19:58:58 [Zakim]
- Bengt_Farre should now be muted
- 19:59:01 [Zakim]
- +Tom_Croucher
- 19:59:11 [Zakim]
- +Becky_Gibson
- 19:59:38 [sh1mmer]
- Zakim, I am Tom
- 19:59:38 [Zakim]
- ok, sh1mmer, I now associate you with Tom_Croucher
- 19:59:44 [Zakim]
- +Judy
- 20:00:08 [Zakim]
- +Katie_Haritos-Shea
- 20:00:16 [Zakim]
- + +1.202.483.aaaa
- 20:00:24 [rscano]
- zakim, who is on the phone?
- 20:00:24 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see ??P2, Bengt_Farre (muted), Roberto_Scano, Tom_Croucher, Becky_Gibson, Judy, Katie_Haritos-Shea, +1.202.483.aaaa
- 20:00:32 [Zakim]
- +Michael_Cooper
- 20:00:42 [rscano]
- zakim, +1.202.483.aaaa is John_Slatin
- 20:00:42 [Zakim]
- +John_Slatin; got it
- 20:00:44 [judy]
- judy has joined #wai-wcag
- 20:00:48 [MichaelC]
- MichaelC has joined #wai-wcag
- 20:00:54 [rscano]
- hi Michael
- 20:00:58 [rscano]
- hi Judy
- 20:01:00 [MichaelC]
- zakim, I am Michael_Cooper
- 20:01:00 [Zakim]
- ok, MichaelC, I now associate you with Michael_Cooper
- 20:01:14 [MichaelC]
- zakim, mute me
- 20:01:14 [Zakim]
- Michael_Cooper should now be muted
- 20:01:20 [rscano]
- zakim mute me
- 20:01:24 [rscano]
- zakim, mute me
- 20:01:24 [Zakim]
- Roberto_Scano should now be muted
- 20:01:48 [Zakim]
- +Wendy
- 20:01:52 [bcaldwell]
- bcaldwell has joined #wai-wcag
- 20:01:55 [rscano]
- rscano has changed the topic to: +1 617.761.6200 passcode 9224 ("WCAG")
- 20:01:59 [Zakim]
- +Loretta_Guarino_Reid
- 20:02:12 [wendy]
- zakim, drop wendy
- 20:02:12 [Zakim]
- Wendy is being disconnected
- 20:02:13 [Zakim]
- -Wendy
- 20:02:39 [Zakim]
- +Wendy
- 20:02:46 [wendy]
- zakim, drop wendy
- 20:02:46 [Zakim]
- Wendy is being disconnected
- 20:02:47 [Zakim]
- -Wendy
- 20:02:52 [Zakim]
- +??P14
- 20:02:53 [Zakim]
- +[IBM]
- 20:03:11 [sh1mmer]
- Zakim, ??p14 is David
- 20:03:11 [Zakim]
- +David; got it
- 20:03:19 [Zakim]
- +??P10
- 20:03:22 [rscano]
- zakim, who is on the phone?
- 20:03:22 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see ??P2, Bengt_Farre (muted), Roberto_Scano (muted), Tom_Croucher, Becky_Gibson, Judy, Katie_Haritos-Shea, John_Slatin, Michael_Cooper (muted),
- 20:03:25 [Zakim]
- ... Loretta_Guarino_Reid, David, [IBM], ??P10
- 20:03:28 [sh1mmer]
- Zakim, [IBM] is Andi
- 20:03:28 [Zakim]
- +Andi; got it
- 20:03:32 [bcaldwell]
- zakim, ??P10 is Gregg_and_Ben
- 20:03:32 [Zakim]
- +Gregg_and_Ben; got it
- 20:03:46 [GVAN]
- GVAN has joined #wai-wcag
- 20:03:53 [nabe]
- Zakim, ??P2 is Takayuki
- 20:03:53 [Zakim]
- +Takayuki; got it
- 20:03:54 [Zakim]
- +JasonWhite
- 20:04:22 [Zakim]
- +Sailesh_Panchang
- 20:04:39 [Zakim]
- +Wendy
- 20:04:45 [wendy]
- zakim, drop wendy
- 20:04:45 [Zakim]
- Wendy is being disconnected
- 20:04:46 [Zakim]
- -Wendy
- 20:04:47 [wendy]
- argh.
- 20:04:52 [Zakim]
- +??P15
- 20:04:59 [rellero]
- zakim, ??p15 is Roberto_Ellero
- 20:04:59 [Zakim]
- +Roberto_Ellero; got it
- 20:05:17 [rellero]
- Zakim, mute me
- 20:05:17 [Zakim]
- sorry, rellero, I do not see a party named 'rellero'
- 20:05:29 [rscano]
- zakim rellero is Roberto_Ellero
- 20:05:35 [sh1mmer]
- Zakim, who's on the phone
- 20:05:35 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'who's on the phone', sh1mmer
- 20:05:36 [rscano]
- zakim, rellero is Roberto_Ellero
- 20:05:36 [Zakim]
- sorry, rscano, I do not recognize a party named 'rellero'
- 20:05:37 [sh1mmer]
- Zakim, who's on the phone?
- 20:05:37 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Takayuki, Bengt_Farre (muted), Roberto_Scano (muted), Tom_Croucher, Becky_Gibson, Judy, Katie_Haritos-Shea, John_Slatin, Michael_Cooper (muted),
- 20:05:39 [Zakim]
- ... Loretta_Guarino_Reid, David, Andi, Gregg_and_Ben, JasonWhite, Sailesh_Panchang, Roberto_Ellero
- 20:05:40 [rellero]
- Zakim, I am Roberto_Ellero
- 20:05:40 [Zakim]
- ok, rellero, I now associate you with Roberto_Ellero
- 20:05:44 [Zakim]
- +Wendy
- 20:05:46 [rellero]
- Zakim, mute me
- 20:05:46 [Zakim]
- Roberto_Ellero should now be muted
- 20:07:00 [sh1mmer]
- 1st agenda Item.
- 20:07:18 [sh1mmer]
- Jason has been co-chairing as well as half-dozen other w3c group and a phd!
- 20:07:56 [Zakim]
- +Matt
- 20:07:59 [bengt]
- logics and math is fun
- 20:08:26 [sh1mmer]
- Jason can't continue to fullfill a full role of co-chair but will still be participating.
- 20:09:08 [sh1mmer]
- We would like to thank him for the vast amounts of work he has contributed while continuing to do his other responsibilities.
- 20:09:25 [wendy]
- lots of applause for jason
- 20:09:28 [rscano]
- (clap clap) . group thanks Jason
- 20:09:28 [MattSEA]
- MattSEA has joined #wai-wcag
- 20:09:53 [Becky]
- Becky has joined #wai-wcag
- 20:10:15 [sh1mmer]
- Wasn't finding time to help the group runs as smoothly and to do the guidelines. Prefer to concentrate on the technical aspects.
- 20:10:58 [sh1mmer]
- Happy to continue as a participant and editor of the document
- 20:11:58 [sh1mmer]
- Hopes that work on PhD can have good results to apply to accessibility and bring the work from that back.
- 20:12:57 [sh1mmer]
- We aren't letting him escape just yet! Still plenty of good work to do.
- 20:13:37 [rscano]
- <http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2004/06/normative-checklist-issues.html>
- 20:14:19 [sh1mmer]
- 2nd agenda item.
- 20:14:20 [sh1mmer]
- Checklists and whether they should be normative or informative.
- 20:14:41 [sh1mmer]
- Are checklists just an interpretation or _the_ interpretation
- 20:17:10 [sh1mmer]
- 1. Do general success criteria provide enough information to determine
- 20:17:10 [sh1mmer]
- conformance?
- 20:17:10 [sh1mmer]
- 2. If not, is it possible to make them testable enough to determine
- 20:17:10 [sh1mmer]
- conformance?
- 20:17:10 [sh1mmer]
- 3. If not, should we conclude that checklists must be normative?
- 20:17:11 [sh1mmer]
- 4. How would putting checklists on the Recommendation track effect our
- 20:17:13 [sh1mmer]
- timeline?
- 20:17:15 [sh1mmer]
- 5. Can we satisfy the Requirements for WCAG 2.0 with informative checklists?
- 20:18:17 [rscano]
- IMHO, Guidelines must be normative, checklist are like techniques...
- 20:19:07 [wendy]
- zakim, who's making noise?
- 20:19:18 [Zakim]
- wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Roberto_Scano (15%), Loretta_Guarino_Reid (19%), Sailesh_Panchang (4%)
- 20:20:24 [sh1mmer]
- Important to be aware of the issues with other working groups that a normative checklist would bring.
- 20:20:47 [sh1mmer]
- Be sensitive to considerations of their standards and possible conflicts
- 20:20:59 [sh1mmer]
- Should be looking at creative options
- 20:23:47 [wendy]
- q?
- 20:24:19 [sh1mmer]
- Open for questions about summary document
- 20:25:11 [sh1mmer]
- John would like to hear a little bit more about the nature of the coordination between groups
- 20:25:32 [sh1mmer]
- q+
- 20:25:42 [sh1mmer]
- Related to the w3c process anyway
- 20:26:05 [sh1mmer]
- Kynn sent a lot of comment on the June 2003 draft, each of which is archieved and logged as issues.
- 20:27:04 [sh1mmer]
- We would do something similar with the HTML working group, but we would pass on our feeling resulting from discussions. Or even just make them aware the discussions have taken place.
- 20:27:32 [sh1mmer]
- Ask that we would want to say somethign different than what that already say
- 20:27:34 [BeckyG]
- BeckyG has joined #wai-wcag
- 20:27:45 [sh1mmer]
- We take issues to PF as a primary point of contact
- 20:28:43 [sh1mmer]
- By creating a normative document we are raising the stakes, by enforcing issues rather than suggesting them as part of the guideline.
- 20:28:56 [sh1mmer]
- q-
- 20:29:07 [MattSEA]
- MattSEA has joined #wai-wcag
- 20:29:32 [sh1mmer]
- We have moved a lot of the specifics from the guidelines into checklists.
- 20:29:40 [sh1mmer]
- We are trying not to fall into the same traps.
- 20:30:45 [sh1mmer]
- In the past we tried to make the content match the browsers, rather we should suggest how it should be and expect the browsers and the AT to get to a point which matches that.
- 20:30:57 [wendy]
- q+ to discuss "ISO"
- 20:31:15 [sh1mmer]
- There are also group nationaly and internationally creating checklists from our guidelines
- 20:31:28 [sh1mmer]
- concerns that the 'generic' guidelines could be misinterpreted.
- 20:31:43 [sh1mmer]
- If you map and fail and change then all the tools become out of date
- 20:32:24 [sh1mmer]
- Is the checklist a lot of suggestions or a constitution of conformance?
- 20:33:06 [bcaldwell]
- q?
- 20:33:33 [bcaldwell]
- ack wendy
- 20:33:33 [Zakim]
- wendy, you wanted to discuss "ISO"
- 20:34:08 [sh1mmer]
- One piece of discussion not in the document, is the issue of seeing WCAG 2.0 as an ISO
- 20:34:36 [sh1mmer]
- There is discussion of taking some w3c reccomendations to ISO
- 20:35:14 [sh1mmer]
- Depending how much we rely on technology, and ISO documents need to rely on normative documents
- 20:35:57 [sh1mmer]
- Many ISO refer to w3c documents as normative
- 20:35:59 [sh1mmer]
- J231
- 20:36:00 [rscano]
- the group is ISO/TC 159/SC 4/WG 5 "Software ergonomics and human-computer dialogues", not JTC 1
- 20:36:09 [sh1mmer]
- er.. JTC 1
- 20:37:29 [wendy]
- roberto - yes, it was JTC1 that was discussed at the AC mtg.
- 20:37:56 [rscano]
- yes sorry I appoint that the ISO that interest WAI are in the WG: ISO/TC 159/SC 4/WG 5 "Software ergonomics and human-computer dialogues" ;-)
- 20:38:01 [sh1mmer]
- If the guidelines became an ISO they would refer to a version of the checklist but you couldn't change them over time
- 20:38:03 [MattSEA_]
- MattSEA_ has joined #wai-wcag
- 20:38:11 [MattSEA]
- MattSEA has left #wai-wcag
- 20:38:23 [bcaldwell]
- ack John
- 20:38:48 [sh1mmer]
- Explore implications of making the checklists normative
- 20:39:30 [sh1mmer]
- Worried about unintentionally disallowing valid but novel approaches
- 20:40:46 [sh1mmer]
- If guideline was normative would only the method we use be valid
- 20:40:56 [sh1mmer]
- What about the issue with standardisation?
- 20:40:57 [sh1mmer]
- q+
- 20:42:25 [wendy]
- q+ to ask, "what would the checklist look like?"
- 20:42:38 [sh1mmer]
- Are the guidelines specific enough?
- 20:43:13 [sh1mmer]
- We say you have to have a text equivelents, but don't say how you need to provide it. But I could do it with a new technique with no value.
- 20:43:19 [rscano]
- checklist = another form for present guidelines (so why not normative?)
- 20:43:43 [bcaldwell]
- ack Tom
- 20:43:45 [sh1mmer]
- ack Tom
- 20:44:27 [wendy]
- if you have a number between 1 and 5, we wouldn't say you have to use "1, 2, 3, 4, or 5". people should be able to use "1.1, 2.56778" etc.
- 20:44:55 [wendy]
- create encapsulation of what is "right" or "wrong"
- 20:45:25 [bcaldwell]
- ack Wendy
- 20:45:25 [Zakim]
- wendy, you wanted to ask, "what would the checklist look like?"
- 20:45:34 [GVAN]
- q+
- 20:45:57 [sh1mmer]
- Part of this discussion of this is hard without prototpyes of checklists
- 20:46:22 [sh1mmer]
- Maybe we should revisit the requirements for checklists
- 20:47:07 [sh1mmer]
- The timeline limits the amount of things we can do, more important to get a good set of documents out than continuing to aim for a perfect document but never finish
- 20:47:12 [wendy]
- ack gvan
- 20:47:31 [sh1mmer]
- Gregg would like to explore wendy's idea of a checklist
- 20:47:41 [sh1mmer]
- We need to get some prototypes done
- 20:48:01 [sh1mmer]
- Go around the table and see where people are at?
- 20:48:10 [rscano]
- I can try to create one like test in weekend...
- 20:48:43 [sh1mmer]
- Not a discussion to come to a decisison but to develop ideas and thoughts
- 20:49:09 [sh1mmer]
- HTML techniques is several atomic techniques, and then they have a test suite
- 20:49:48 [MattSEA]
- MattSEA has joined #wai-wcag
- 20:49:53 [sh1mmer]
- See it really as a decision tree
- 20:50:23 [sh1mmer]
- q+
- 20:50:33 [sh1mmer]
- ack Tom
- 20:50:43 [GVAN]
- Q+
- 20:51:22 [Becky]
- Becky has joined #wai-wcag
- 20:51:24 [sh1mmer]
- decission tree and boundries could work well together
- 20:51:50 [wendy]
- ack gvan
- 20:51:56 [sh1mmer]
- Not being too specific was more related to UA
- 20:51:58 [sh1mmer]
- q+
- 20:52:39 [sh1mmer]
- Informative would be 'visible' techniques
- 20:53:17 [sh1mmer]
- What we are trying to specify is completely independant of the technology
- 20:53:30 [BeckyG]
- BeckyG has joined #wai-wcag
- 20:54:05 [sh1mmer]
- q-
- 20:54:20 [bcaldwell]
- ack David
- 20:54:30 [sh1mmer]
- We may find that the SC are used and the only technology one are those that relate to ua
- 20:54:43 [Becky]
- Becky has joined #WAI-WCAG
- 20:55:41 [sh1mmer]
- the relationship between the documents, the guidelines are high level and last 5-6 year,and the technology documents would be evolving
- 20:56:03 [sh1mmer]
- would normative make them a lot less inflexible
- 20:58:42 [sh1mmer]
- any normative documents, would have to go through review process
- 20:59:00 [sh1mmer]
- that is anything from 30 days to 4month minimum depending on the review cycles
- 20:59:01 [Zakim]
- +[Microsoft]
- 20:59:15 [wendy]
- zakim, [Microsoft] is Mike
- 20:59:15 [Zakim]
- +Mike; got it
- 21:00:17 [wendy]
- q?
- 21:00:37 [Zakim]
- +Kerstin_Goldsmith
- 21:00:37 [sh1mmer]
- ack Jason
- 21:00:55 [wendy]
- ack Jason
- 21:01:00 [wendy]
- zakim, set timer to 1 minute
- 21:01:00 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'set timer to 1 minute', wendy
- 21:01:15 [sh1mmer]
- valuable to view discussion on the mailing before returning to the topic
- 21:01:33 [Zakim]
- -Sailesh_Panchang
- 21:01:38 [sh1mmer]
- those aspects of the technology specifics that need to be implemented in software
- 21:01:53 [wendy]
- zakim, please time each speaker at 1 minute
- 21:01:53 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'please time each speaker at 1 minute', wendy
- 21:02:06 [wendy]
- zakim, please time each speaker at 1 minutes
- 21:02:06 [Zakim]
- ok, wendy
- 21:02:08 [wendy]
- :)
- 21:02:16 [wendy]
- zakim, who's on the call?
- 21:02:16 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Takayuki, Bengt_Farre (muted), Roberto_Scano (muted), Tom_Croucher (muted), Becky_Gibson, Judy, Katie_Haritos-Shea, John_Slatin, Michael_Cooper (muted),
- 21:02:19 [Zakim]
- ... Loretta_Guarino_Reid, David, Andi, Gregg_and_Ben, JasonWhite, Roberto_Ellero (muted), Wendy, Matt, Mike, Kerstin_Goldsmith
- 21:02:21 [sh1mmer]
- then the software needs to be able to rely on something not changing
- 21:03:06 [wendy]
- q+ Takayuki, Bengt, Roberto, Tom, Becky, Judy, Katie, John, Michael, Loretta, David, Andi, Ben, Roberto_E, Matt, Mike, Kerstin
- 21:03:06 [sh1mmer]
- problems, things are not specifically mentioned as the specification provides because there aren't any
- 21:03:19 [sh1mmer]
- nothing normative that could be refered to
- 21:03:30 [Zakim]
- -Kerstin_Goldsmith
- 21:03:40 [sh1mmer]
- is there sufficient problem that we have to say something normative in a document
- 21:04:11 [wendy]
- ack Takayuki
- 21:04:42 [wendy]
- Why JTC1 instead of ISO WG ___?
- 21:05:04 [sh1mmer]
- Not done a comparison of the various processes
- 21:05:34 [sh1mmer]
- Governmental issue restricting WCAG adoption, which ISO didn't suffer from
- 21:06:16 [sh1mmer]
- Already concerns regarding revisions controls and other issues
- 21:06:32 [sh1mmer]
- JTC1 addressing some of w3c's concerns, still early stages
- 21:06:41 [wendy]
- ack Bengt
- 21:06:43 [sh1mmer]
- ack begnt
- 21:07:06 [wendy]
- zakim, stop timing
- 21:07:06 [Zakim]
- ok, wendy
- 21:07:25 [wendy]
- at CSUN talked about Guide 71. What has happened with that?
- 21:07:39 [Zakim]
- +Kerstin_Goldsmith
- 21:07:51 [wendy]
- zakim, please time each speaker at 1 minutes
- 21:07:51 [Zakim]
- ok, wendy
- 21:08:03 [wendy]
- bengt:
- 21:08:16 [sh1mmer]
- ack roberto
- 21:08:19 [wendy]
- ack Roberto
- 21:08:27 [bengt]
- zakim, mute me
- 21:08:27 [Zakim]
- Bengt_Farre should now be muted
- 21:08:41 [wendy]
- ack rscano
- 21:08:52 [rscano]
- unmute me
- 21:09:00 [sh1mmer]
- Zakim, unmute rscano
- 21:09:00 [Zakim]
- sorry, sh1mmer, I do not see a party named 'rscano'
- 21:09:06 [sh1mmer]
- Zakim, unmute Roberto_Scano
- 21:09:06 [Zakim]
- Roberto_Scano should no longer be muted
- 21:09:10 [MattSEA]
- q-
- 21:09:22 [wendy]
- q+ Roberto_Ellero
- 21:09:43 [wendy]
- zakim, give roberto_scano 1 minutes
- 21:09:43 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'give roberto_scano 1 minutes', wendy
- 21:09:45 [Zakim]
- -Kerstin_Goldsmith
- 21:10:10 [wendy]
- in italy, want to create normative checklist that is similar to the guidelines, but is "lite" (?)
- 21:10:11 [sh1mmer]
- Trying to create a normative checklist in Italy
- 21:10:27 [sh1mmer]
- Needs to be in the local language
- 21:10:30 [wendy]
- document should be translated into other languages and those translations need to be recognized.
- 21:11:11 [sh1mmer]
- ack tom
- 21:11:12 [wendy]
- jb: 2 potential avenues: 1. w3c investigating official recognition of translations 2. if path through another standards org, then translation mechanisms there.
- 21:11:36 [rscano]
- http://www.iso.ch/iso/en/stdsdevelopment/techprog/workprog/TechnicalProgrammeProjectDetailPage.TechnicalProgrammeProjectDetail?csnumber=37031 (this could be interesting for the list)
- 21:11:40 [wendy]
- how does our checklist relate to other guidelines? e.g., UAAG?
- 21:12:04 [wendy]
- ack Becky
- 21:12:18 [sh1mmer]
- Thinks that non-normative
- 21:12:24 [sh1mmer]
- because things are changing so quickly
- 21:12:35 [sh1mmer]
- worried about falling into old technology
- 21:12:49 [rellero]
- Zakim, unmute me
- 21:12:50 [Zakim]
- Roberto_Ellero should no longer be muted
- 21:13:00 [sh1mmer]
- never use just one technology and there is a lot of crossover
- 21:13:15 [sh1mmer]
- Gregg: checklists not necessarly one technology
- 21:13:17 [wendy]
- ack Judy
- 21:13:18 [sh1mmer]
- ack Judy
- 21:13:23 [wendy]
- ack Katie
- 21:13:33 [sh1mmer]
- no strong feeling either way
- 21:13:45 [sh1mmer]
- not seen as an issue
- 21:13:53 [BeckyG]
- BeckyG has joined #wai-wcag
- 21:14:11 [wendy]
- ack John
- 21:14:11 [sh1mmer]
- ack John
- 21:14:31 [Zakim]
- +??P13
- 21:14:46 [sh1mmer]
- Do we have a way to find a representative sample to see what they think, and how they affect their interests
- 21:14:47 [sh1mmer]
- ?
- 21:14:56 [sh1mmer]
- Govt. policies, corp policies.
- 21:15:27 [sh1mmer]
- Dialog with national bodies, almost non at not intersted in normative checklists
- 21:16:21 [wendy]
- zakim, ??P13 is Kerstin
- 21:16:21 [Zakim]
- +Kerstin; got it
- 21:16:27 [sh1mmer]
- ack Michael
- 21:16:30 [MichaelC]
- I've heard one of my concerns with normative checklists already, that otherwise valid techniques not in the checklist might be excluded. I also think we will not be successful at keeping the checklists up to date, no matter how good our intentions, because of the magnitude of the task, and this would lead to great problems in the future. We have also determined that there are many technologies in wide use on the Web for which we will not be creating te
- 21:17:06 [wendy]
- zakim, who's making noise?
- 21:17:19 [Zakim]
- wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Michael_Cooper (28%), Roberto_Ellero (4%)
- 21:17:40 [wendy]
- ack loretta
- 21:18:23 [sh1mmer]
- various different reactions. normative it would shut out any tech not on our current list. and concern that authors not have suffient details for how to form output
- 21:18:40 [sh1mmer]
- documents have a long shelf life
- 21:18:58 [sh1mmer]
- if we don't use feature now then you will fall behind.
- 21:19:54 [Zakim]
- -Michael_Cooper
- 21:20:08 [sh1mmer]
- don't want to write techniques to AT should write them to how they should be
- 21:20:08 [wendy]
- ack David
- 21:20:12 [rscano]
- q?
- 21:20:41 [sh1mmer]
- do the checklists work from the techniques documents? or are they going to be a higher level
- 21:20:52 [sh1mmer]
- if they are going to be technique level they can't be frozen
- 21:21:21 [sh1mmer]
- ack andi
- 21:21:21 [wendy]
- ack Andi
- 21:21:51 [sh1mmer]
- think that the guideline themselves dont have enough in themselves
- 21:21:59 [sh1mmer]
- need test suites
- 21:22:11 [sh1mmer]
- priotise test suites
- 21:22:32 [sh1mmer]
- needs what the minimum required is
- 21:22:38 [sh1mmer]
- in the techniques documents
- 21:23:07 [sh1mmer]
- techniques shouldn't be normative to change faster
- 21:23:16 [wendy]
- we need other things, but those other things do not need to be normative
- 21:23:22 [sh1mmer]
- guidelines normative other things not
- 21:23:35 [wendy]
- ack ben
- 21:23:39 [sh1mmer]
- cant have normative guidelines which aren't clear
- 21:23:56 [sh1mmer]
- concerns about the timelines, and if we can update multiple normative docs
- 21:24:13 [sh1mmer]
- need prototpyes before designs
- 21:24:16 [sh1mmer]
- decisions
- 21:24:27 [sh1mmer]
- doing the e2e mappings etc
- 21:24:37 [sh1mmer]
- working out where the whole between and in documents is
- 21:24:50 [sh1mmer]
- which techniques and which combinations of techniques are sufficient
- 21:24:51 [wendy]
- ack Matt
- 21:25:02 [sh1mmer]
- checklists shouldn't be normative
- 21:25:10 [sh1mmer]
- q+
- 21:25:28 [sh1mmer]
- will cause us to be ignored after a couple of years
- 21:25:44 [rscano]
- ???
- 21:25:45 [sh1mmer]
- techniques/checklists should may not even be a note and actually be a 'living' document
- 21:25:50 [sh1mmer]
- not a versioned series
- 21:25:57 [wendy]
- ack Mike
- 21:26:03 [sh1mmer]
- agrees with matt
- 21:26:20 [sh1mmer]
- techniques and checklists useful tools
- 21:26:25 [wendy]
- ack Kerstin
- 21:26:28 [sh1mmer]
- for illustive purposes
- 21:26:37 [sh1mmer]
- agree with mike
- 21:26:38 [wendy]
- agrees w/matt, mike, and andi
- 21:26:42 [wendy]
- ack Roberto
- 21:26:53 [sh1mmer]
- agree with Roberto scano
- 21:27:22 [wendy]
- q?
- 21:27:25 [sh1mmer]
- rellero can you type that in pls?
- 21:27:33 [nabe]
- As for normative-checklist question I have no definite opinion yet.
- 21:27:36 [sh1mmer]
- rellero my speaker phone isn't great
- 21:27:43 [wendy]
- ack jason
- 21:27:52 [sh1mmer]
- zakim, stop timing
- 21:27:52 [Zakim]
- ok, sh1mmer
- 21:28:09 [wendy]
- q+ to say "audience"
- 21:28:14 [rellero]
- I agree with the words of scano
- 21:28:14 [rellero]
-
- 21:28:14 [rellero]
- I think that a standardization process could probably have major impact in a law with reference to a standard iso, even if the problem of the updating is remarkable,
- 21:28:14 [rellero]
-
- 21:28:14 [rellero]
- However in Italy is strong the necessity of a normative and prescriptive anchorage to a clear checklist, even to avoid semplifications
- 21:28:21 [sh1mmer]
- :)
- 21:28:26 [rscano]
- ;-)
- 21:28:37 [sh1mmer]
- Have to be versioned against the technology
- 21:28:54 [sh1mmer]
- Accesible practice in relation to that technology
- 21:29:17 [sh1mmer]
- Possibility for achiving goal
- 21:29:33 [sh1mmer]
- ack tom
- 21:29:37 [wendy]
- q+ gv
- 21:30:12 [wendy]
- could we look at a fast-track process in w3c process?
- 21:30:31 [wendy]
- ack wendy
- 21:30:31 [Zakim]
- wendy, you wanted to say "audience"
- 21:30:55 [sh1mmer]
- have number of options re: publishing
- 21:31:44 [sh1mmer]
- didn't discussion audience issues
- 21:31:51 [sh1mmer]
- test suite issues
- 21:32:13 [sh1mmer]
- how we discuss audiences will open up how we deal with the issue
- 21:33:01 [sh1mmer]
- What is our primary goal? authoring tool and evaluation tools have something to work from or targeting authors?
- 21:33:31 [wendy]
- ack mike
- 21:33:54 [wendy]
- ack gv
- 21:34:01 [wendy]
- zakim, who's making noise?
- 21:34:09 [sh1mmer]
- re: guidelines to version of technology, could get confusing with various versions
- 21:34:14 [Zakim]
- wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Bengt_Farre (4%), Gregg_and_Ben (61%), Andi (14%), David (9%), Roberto_Ellero (5%)
- 21:35:20 [sh1mmer]
- careful to make decision their merit rather than how they fit in with scheduels or difficulty to achieve
- 21:35:36 [sh1mmer]
- if we don't create normative checklists and then we will be sidelined
- 21:35:52 [sh1mmer]
- someone else will create them and peopel will use them by default
- 21:35:54 [MattSEA]
- q+
- 21:36:07 [sh1mmer]
- some places the guidelines are clear enough
- 21:36:27 [bengt]
- zakim, who is here ?
- 21:36:27 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Takayuki, Bengt_Farre, Roberto_Scano (muted), Tom_Croucher (muted), Becky_Gibson, Judy, Katie_Haritos-Shea, John_Slatin, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, David, Andi,
- 21:36:30 [Zakim]
- ... Gregg_and_Ben, JasonWhite, Roberto_Ellero, Wendy, Matt, Mike, Kerstin
- 21:36:31 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see MattSEA, GVAN, bcaldwell, judy, rellero, nabe, RRSAgent, Zakim, bengt, rscano, Andi, wendy, sh1mmer
- 21:36:36 [bengt]
- zakim, mute me
- 21:36:36 [Zakim]
- Bengt_Farre should now be muted
- 21:37:02 [sh1mmer]
- really need to resolve issue by using prototypes
- 21:37:16 [sh1mmer]
- 'singing from the same hymn sheet'
- 21:40:46 [wendy]
- feel free to contact me and/or ben if you would like to volunteer or are unsure about volunteering until you have more info. Also, suggest people team up to work on these action items together.
- 21:40:47 [sh1mmer]
- ack Matt
- 21:41:12 [sh1mmer]
- the idea of doing what is necessary, need to insect what is necessary with what is possible
- 21:43:01 [sh1mmer]
- q+
- 21:43:03 [sh1mmer]
- q-
- 21:43:55 [sh1mmer]
- yay :)
- 21:44:16 [sh1mmer]
- q+
- 21:44:17 [sh1mmer]
- ack tom
- 21:44:22 [Zakim]
- -Katie_Haritos-Shea
- 21:45:56 [Zakim]
- -Becky_Gibson
- 21:45:59 [Zakim]
- -Loretta_Guarino_Reid
- 21:46:00 [Zakim]
- -Kerstin
- 21:46:01 [Zakim]
- -Mike
- 21:46:02 [Zakim]
- -Judy
- 21:46:03 [Zakim]
- -Andi
- 21:46:03 [Zakim]
- -David
- 21:46:03 [rellero]
- Bye
- 21:46:04 [Zakim]
- -Matt
- 21:46:05 [Zakim]
- -Roberto_Scano
- 21:46:06 [Zakim]
- -John_Slatin
- 21:46:08 [Zakim]
- -Gregg_and_Ben
- 21:46:10 [Zakim]
- -Takayuki
- 21:46:12 [Zakim]
- -Bengt_Farre
- 21:46:16 [Zakim]
- -JasonWhite
- 21:46:42 [rscano]
- good night to all! (and good morning to far east members :D)
- 21:47:15 [nabe]
- good morning Roberto! I want to sleep again. :-)
- 21:47:36 [rscano]
- :)
- 21:47:41 [rscano]
- rscano has left #wai-wcag
- 21:47:48 [MattSEA]
- MattSEA has left #wai-wcag
- 21:47:56 [bengt]
- hehe ohayo gozaimasu :)
- 21:48:20 [sh1mmer]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 21:48:20 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Tom_Croucher, Roberto_Ellero, Wendy
- 21:48:32 [nabe]
- Ohayo gozaimasu to you!
- 21:48:48 [nabe]
- good bye and good night evrtyone.
- 21:48:51 [bengt]
- goodnight everyone
- 21:49:08 [wendy]
- http://www.w3.org/2004/02/Process-20040205/tr.html#rec-modify
- 21:55:17 [Zakim]
- -Roberto_Ellero
- 21:59:15 [Zakim]
- -Tom_Croucher
- 21:59:21 [Zakim]
- -Wendy
- 21:59:22 [Zakim]
- WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has ended
- 21:59:23 [Zakim]
- Attendees were Bengt_Farre, Roberto_Scano, Tom_Croucher, Becky_Gibson, Judy, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Michael_Cooper, John_Slatin, Wendy, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, David, Andi,
- 21:59:23 [wendy]
- zakim, bye
- 21:59:23 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #wai-wcag
- 21:59:25 [Zakim]
- ... Gregg_and_Ben, Takayuki, JasonWhite, Sailesh_Panchang, Roberto_Ellero, Matt, Mike, Kerstin_Goldsmith, Kerstin
- 21:59:29 [wendy]
- RRSAgent, make log world
- 21:59:34 [wendy]
- RRSAgent, bye
- 21:59:34 [RRSAgent]
- I see no action items