IRC log of wai-wcag on 2004-05-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:56:19 [RRSAgent]

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13:56:26 [MichaelC]

rrsagent, make logs world-visible

13:59:21 [ChrisR]

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13:59:55 [Zakim]

WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has now started

14:00:02 [Zakim]

+Michael_Cooper

14:00:13 [Zakim]

+Chris_Ridpath

14:01:29 [Zakim]

+Don_Evans

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-Chris_Ridpath

14:02:04 [Zakim]

+??P11

14:02:11 [donaldfevans]

donaldfevans has joined #wai-wcag

14:02:17 [sh1m]

Zakim, ?P11 is Tom

14:02:17 [Zakim]

sorry, sh1m, I do not recognize a party named '?P11'

14:02:20 [sh1m]

Zakim, ??P11 is Tom

14:02:20 [Zakim]

+Tom; got it

14:02:25 [bcaldwell]

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14:02:26 [sh1m]

Zakim, I am Tom

14:02:26 [Zakim]

ok, sh1m, I now associate you with Tom

14:02:40 [Zakim]

+??P16

14:02:49 [bcaldwell]

zakim ??P16 is Ben

14:03:00 [bcaldwell]

zakim, ??P16 is Ben

14:03:01 [Zakim]

+Ben; got it

14:03:10 [Zakim]

+DaveB

14:04:27 [bcaldwell]

zakim, who is here?

14:04:27 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Michael_Cooper, Don_Evans, Tom, Ben, DaveB

14:04:28 [Zakim]

On IRC I see bcaldwell, donaldfevans, ChrisR, RRSAgent, Zakim, MichaelC, sh1m

14:04:41 [sh1m]

Zakim, DaveB might be Chris_Ridpath

14:04:46 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'DaveB might be Chris_Ridpath', sh1m

14:04:54 [bcaldwell]

zakim, DaveB is ChrisR

14:04:58 [Zakim]

+ChrisR; got it

14:05:36 [sh1m]

Zakim, mute me

14:05:36 [Zakim]

Tom should now be muted

14:06:54 [MichaelC]

-- use cases --

14:06:56 [MichaelC]

http://www.eramp.com/david/becky_use_cases.htm

14:08:27 [sh1m]

yes

14:09:48 [MichaelC]

http://www.w3.org/2004/05/19-wai-wcag-irc

14:14:10 [MichaelC]

-- tables --

14:14:21 [MichaelC]

we should categorically forbid layout tables

14:14:52 [MichaelC]

HTML WG doesn't acknowledge their existence

14:15:38 [MichaelC]

creating techniques for them validates them

14:17:10 [MichaelC]

do they create real problems?

14:17:27 [MichaelC]

some - linearization, summary "this is a layout table"

14:17:41 [MichaelC]

even nested layout tables can linearize ok

14:18:55 [MichaelC]

should recommend use of css because works better for older AT

14:19:07 [MichaelC]

though it breaks older graphical browsers

14:19:14 [MichaelC]

yet graphical browsers are free while AT isn't

14:22:22 [MichaelC]

authoring tools don't make it easy to create good CSS layouts though

14:23:48 [MichaelC]

we need to be setting a higher bar and pushing people into new technology

14:24:07 [MichaelC]

but is it realistic to expect the mainstream to be able to do this?

14:24:16 [MichaelC]

some people are pushing and tools are starting to catch up

14:26:39 [MichaelC]

remember techniques can be updated as technology changes

14:26:49 [MichaelC]

mark layout table techniques as deprecated

14:29:55 [MichaelC]

how much do we want to teach css layout in our techniques vs point to other resources?

14:30:03 [MichaelC]

do we even know for sure CSS better than layout tables?

14:30:07 [MichaelC]

only where proper structure exists

14:30:30 [MichaelC]

in that case it is much better

14:30:37 [MichaelC]

e.g.., lists for menus

14:34:25 [MichaelC]

what if we have a technique that says use css? and another that says if you have to use layout tables, make them accessible

14:34:44 [MichaelC]

if people follow guidelines for use of layout tables, is it less accessible than if they used css?

14:35:05 [MichaelC]

sometimes, with older technology, or in the lists for menus example

14:35:17 [MichaelC]

(though line between accessible and usable by PWD)

14:38:46 [MichaelC]

how much usability should we be taking on?

14:39:30 [MichaelC]

if it's usability specific to PWD we should (a usability differential from people without disabilities)

14:43:33 [MichaelC]

consider concept of proportionally greater impact of one techniques vs another on PWD

14:44:07 [MichaelC]

in future, as CSS support improves the pain of using layout tables vs. CSS may be proportionately greater than it is now

14:44:38 [MichaelC]

but now it already is that way for some usage

14:45:11 [MichaelC]

we need to just determine what guidelines our table techniques are going to relate to

14:45:17 [MichaelC]

as well as the priority level

14:45:45 [MichaelC]

currently there are three levels of conformance

14:46:25 [bcaldwell]

latest on definition of levels: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004AprJun/0406.html

14:49:25 [MichaelC]

Guideline 4.1 use tech to spec

14:49:33 [MichaelC]

level 1 is with exceptions for compatibility

14:49:37 [MichaelC]

level 3 is strict

14:50:00 [MichaelC]

maybe level 3 should go to level 2, though it's bounced around a bit

14:54:07 [MichaelC]

guideline requires documentation of spec violations you undertake

14:54:31 [MichaelC]

question is whether layout tables are a violation of spec such that you need to document

14:55:09 [MichaelC]

spec unclear because HTML WG doens't acknowedge layout tables, so doesn't even put a comment in the spec saying they are not permitted by the spec

14:57:25 [MichaelC]

we need to take our techniques, come up with our idea of priorities, and see of this match the priorities in the guidelines with the success criteria to which we match

14:58:42 [MichaelC]

action: Chris - do a draft mapping of techniques to guideline and levels

15:01:36 [MichaelC]

action: Michael - propose techniques for layout tables based on this discussion

15:06:12 [MichaelC]

-- abbreviation & acronym --

15:06:14 [MichaelC]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004AprJun/0410.html

15:07:01 [MichaelC]

issue in UAAG with "conditional content" - extra stuff like "title", how should it be handled

15:07:21 [MichaelC]

in JAWS title can replace the original content with the conditional content

15:07:38 [MichaelC]

this seems to be permitted by UAAG

15:07:53 [MichaelC]

that creates issues for us around how we're going to recommend use of that

15:08:19 [bcaldwell]

http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/REC-UAAG10-20021217/guidelines#tech-conditional-conte

15:08:19 [bcaldwell]

nt

15:08:35 [bcaldwell]

http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/REC-UAAG10-20021217/guidelines#tech-conditional-content

15:10:16 [MichaelC]

this might even be interpreted to mean that summary of data table could be rendered _in place of_ the table itself

15:10:36 [MichaelC]

would like to propose removing option 1a (at above URL)

15:13:01 [MichaelC]

action: Ben - raise issue of expected user agent handling of conditional content to UA WG, perhaps an erratum would be nice

15:14:45 [MichaelC]

issue of marking abbr/acronym once or on each occurrence

15:15:01 [MichaelC]

this is spoken to in guideline level at 3.1: http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-WCAG20-20040311/#meaning

15:20:22 [MichaelC]

marking up each instance burdensome for some, though maybe shouldn't be considered that

15:20:51 [MichaelC]

big question about what is even subject to this guideline

15:21:49 [MichaelC]

UA should allow user to query element for the expansion

15:22:27 [MichaelC]

(UAAG case 3a)

15:24:50 [MichaelC]

need to go back to larger group with question: what does it mean to fulfill 3.1 level 1?

15:25:26 [MichaelC]

action: Ben - raise question to larger group "what does it mean to fulfill 3.1 level 1?"

15:27:57 [donaldfevans]

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15:30:16 [ChrisR]

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15:32:39 [Zakim]

-ChrisR

15:33:01 [Zakim]

-Don_Evans

15:33:05 [Zakim]

-Tom

15:33:09 [Zakim]

-Michael_Cooper

15:33:13 [Zakim]

WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended

15:33:17 [Zakim]

Attendees were Michael_Cooper, Chris_Ridpath, Don_Evans, Tom, Ben, ChrisR

15:33:41 [MichaelC]

zakim, bye

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15:33:44 [MichaelC]

rrsagent, bye

15:33:44 [RRSAgent]

I see 4 open action items:

15:33:44 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Chris - do a draft mapping of techniques to guideline and levels [1]

15:33:44 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/05/26-wai-wcag-irc#T14-58-42

15:33:44 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Michael - propose techniques for layout tables based on this discussion [2]

15:33:44 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/05/26-wai-wcag-irc#T15-01-36

15:33:44 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben - raise issue of expected user agent handling of conditional content to UA WG, perhaps an erratum would be nice [3]

15:33:44 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/05/26-wai-wcag-irc#T15-13-01

15:33:44 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben - raise question to larger group "what does it mean to fulfill 3.1 level 1?" [4]

15:33:44 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/05/26-wai-wcag-irc#T15-25-26