IRC log of wai-wcag on 2004-05-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:04:13 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag

14:04:49 [MichaelC]

zakim, who's on the phone?

14:04:49 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Don_Evans, [Microsoft], ??P4, Jim_Thatcher, Becky_Gibson, Michael_Cooper, Sailesh_Panchang

14:05:12 [MichaelC]

zakim, ??P4 is Chris_Ridpath

14:05:12 [Zakim]

+Chris_Ridpath; got it

14:06:37 [MichaelC]

-- navigation approaches & use cases --

14:06:38 [MichaelC]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004AprJun/0333.html

14:06:45 [MichaelC]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004AprJun/0457.html

14:07:57 [MichaelC]

Becky took Tom's personae and tried to make real world examles

14:08:59 [MichaelC]

zakim, [Microsoft] is temporarily Jenae_Andershonis

14:08:59 [Zakim]

+Jenae_Andershonis; got it

14:09:33 [MichaelC]

would like to get from guidelines to techniques and back

14:09:39 [MichaelC]

or from guidelines to checklists

14:10:23 [MichaelC]

may need to go from document to document to get clarity on specific questions

14:10:30 [MichaelC]

tried one to use traffic cop

14:12:25 [MichaelC]

Same question as last week: not sure on difference between tech-independent techniques and techniques repository

14:12:52 [MichaelC]

Would like to be able to go directly from checklists to techniques repository

14:13:13 [MichaelC]

Not sure in diagram from last week what entry point into repository is

14:14:28 [MichaelC]

action: Becky create a revised picture based on her use cases

14:18:32 [MichaelC]

In last of Becky's scenarios, person comes from guideline and wants to go to techniques - how do they do that?

14:18:55 [MichaelC]

relates to linking guidelines to techniques http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004AprJun/0191.html

14:20:02 [MichaelC]

Process of linking guidelines to techniques through traffic cop

14:20:36 [MichaelC]

Do we link from traffic cop to guidelines?

14:20:47 [MichaelC]

Or do we also provide links to checklists and techniques?

14:21:25 [MichaelC]

Also when do you get from non-tech specific to tech-specific

14:22:13 [MichaelC]

Do we need to link out from guidelines to everything, or just to traffic cop?

14:23:54 [MichaelC]

We need to understand where there is a 1:1 vs. a 1:many relation

14:25:04 [MichaelC]

that can determine how we present linkages

14:28:04 [MichaelC]

Also there are possibly multiple guidelines per technique, therefore many:many relations

14:28:10 [MichaelC]

but need to keep things simple

14:28:59 [MichaelC]

make a constraint that we only define one guideline per technique - strongest one - to maintain the 1:many status

14:30:48 [MichaelC]

Perhaps everything links into traffic cop, from which you can get to whichever related document you want

14:30:56 [MichaelC]

It's two hops, but it might be clearer where you're going

14:33:59 [Becky]

David's traffic cop proposal: http://www.eramp.com/david/traffic_cop_prototype_staticc_no_rows.htm

14:34:44 [MichaelC]

add checklists to this

14:35:06 [MichaelC]

make guideline links live

14:35:21 [MichaelC]

How do people get to test cases?

14:36:02 [MichaelC]

Add a field to traffic cop for test cases?

14:36:09 [MichaelC]

Link from techniques?

14:37:21 [MichaelC]

Need updated prototypes of all this

14:38:06 [MichaelC]

action: Michael, Jenae: create updated prototype of Guidelines link to traffic cop, and links to techniques, checklists, and test cases

14:39:14 [Zakim]

+??P0

14:39:33 [MichaelC]

zakim, ??P0 is David_MacDonald

14:39:33 [Zakim]

+David_MacDonald; got it

14:40:37 [MichaelC]

If we have checklists, would they be in their own field or tied to the technology specific techniques?

14:46:39 [MichaelC]

action 1 = Becky, David create a revised picture based on her use cases

14:49:06 [MichaelC]

-- end-to-end --

14:49:16 [MichaelC]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004AprJun/att-0054/gateway-outline.htm

14:49:23 [MichaelC]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004AprJun/0158.html

14:55:01 [MichaelC]

were expecting additional analysis from last week but not yet completed

14:55:09 [MichaelC]

postponing this agendum

14:59:40 [MichaelC]

-- table headers, layout vs css, and summary and caption --

15:00:11 [MichaelC]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004AprJun/0327.html

15:00:55 [MichaelC]

Summary attribute gives additional information to an AT user

15:01:06 [MichaelC]

it describes something that visually you can take in at a glance

15:01:21 [MichaelC]

non-null summary therefore important for data tables

15:02:03 [MichaelC]

Is summary in addition to or instead of TH to identify data table?

15:04:42 [MichaelC]

not specifically either

15:05:01 [MichaelC]

Most recent list discussion was that summary was optional on data tables, and null/absent on layout tables

15:06:08 [MichaelC]

Should a summary that describes the data table always be present?

15:06:30 [MichaelC]

useful for large tables, less necessary for small tables

15:06:38 [MichaelC]

how onerous is it for developers?

15:07:18 [MichaelC]

Only require summary on complex tables?

15:07:22 [MichaelC]

then we have to define that

15:07:57 [MichaelC]

...multiple rows/cols of headers, and heading for data cell is not in same row and column as the cell

15:08:22 [MichaelC]

Second part of that definition the only important part?

15:12:35 [MichaelC]

line between complexity for headers, and complexity for summary

15:13:11 [MichaelC]

CAPTION should describe what table contains, and summary should summarize the layout/organization of information

15:16:39 [MichaelC]

CAPTION is for everybody

15:16:45 [MichaelC]

summary is mainly for screen reader users

15:20:41 [MichaelC]

Imagine a "perfect" table: has a CAPTION, meaningful and brief summary, TH for all headers, and additional header markup if needed

15:20:55 [MichaelC]

Don't like to require CAPTION because of visual impact

15:21:14 [MichaelC]

CSS to hide possible, but current UA support leads to that being unavailable in screen readers also

15:23:53 [BeckyG]

BeckyG has joined #wai-wcag

15:24:22 [MichaelC]

If UA support were working, would we be comfortable requiring CAPTION but hiding it visually if desired?

15:24:40 [MichaelC]

No - it's defined as a visual element

15:24:55 [MichaelC]

Which of these features make an actual difference to users?

15:24:57 [MichaelC]

Summary

15:25:28 [MichaelC]

TH - UA will read "headers" even if absent but presence can still help

15:29:19 [Zakim]

-Chris_Ridpath

15:29:24 [ChrisR]

ChrisR has left #wai-wcag

15:30:27 [MichaelC]

Do we unanimously agree that TH should always be required?

15:30:44 [MichaelC]

can live with it, but don't like to require something that doesn't make a measurable impact for users

15:30:54 [MichaelC]

Do we unanimously agree that summary should always be required?

15:31:13 [MichaelC]

no, should only be required for complex tables - but we need to define that

15:32:25 [MichaelC]

What if we say either caption or summary is required (caption preferred, and summary desired for complex tables)

15:32:49 [MichaelC]

summary *required* for complex tables

15:34:30 [MichaelC]

This doesn't draw the ideal distinction between caption (visual design element) and summary (*quick* description of what is available through a visual scan)

15:38:54 [MichaelC]

Two definitions of summary:

15:39:13 [MichaelC]

1) Summarizes what can be taken in at a glance - very short

15:39:42 [MichaelC]

2) Describes the organization, row/col headers, etc. to give navigational advice

15:46:00 [MichaelC]

refer to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004AprJun/0377.html

15:49:47 [MichaelC]

action: Michael post the various definitions of summary and caption to get discussion started

15:53:03 [Zakim]

-Jenae_Andershonis

15:57:11 [MichaelC]

TH is to be required for all data tables

15:57:31 [MichaelC]

notwithstanding objection that doesn't a difference in current UA

15:58:27 [MichaelC]

and even when in complex tables headers/id used, still the header cells need to be TH

15:59:54 [Zakim]

-Becky_Gibson

15:59:55 [Zakim]

-Don_Evans

15:59:55 [Zakim]

-Jim_Thatcher

15:59:56 [Zakim]

-Michael_Cooper

15:59:56 [Zakim]

-Sailesh_Panchang

15:59:57 [Zakim]

-David_MacDonald

15:59:57 [Zakim]

WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended

15:59:59 [Zakim]

Attendees were Don_Evans, Jim_Thatcher, Becky_Gibson, Michael_Cooper, Sailesh_Panchang, Chris_Ridpath, Jenae_Andershonis, David_MacDonald

16:00:11 [MichaelC]

rrsagent, make log world-visible

16:00:19 [MichaelC]

rrsagent, bye

16:00:19 [RRSAgent]

I see 3 open action items:

16:00:19 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Becky, David create a revised picture based on her use cases [1]

16:00:19 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/05/19-wai-wcag-irc#T14-14-28

16:00:19 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Michael, Jenae: create updated prototype of Guidelines link to traffic cop, and links to techniques, checklists, and test cases [2]

16:00:19 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/05/19-wai-wcag-irc#T14-38-06

16:00:19 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Michael post the various definitions of summary and caption to get discussion started [3]

16:00:19 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/05/19-wai-wcag-irc#T15-49-47