IRC log of wai-wcag on 2004-01-22
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 20:55:58 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
- 20:56:00 [Yvette]
- First I got to get better, I've got laryngitis
- 20:56:06 [wendy]
- sorry to hear that
- 20:56:15 [Yvette]
- **** happens
- 20:56:29 [Yvette]
- :-)
- 20:56:36 [wendy]
- :)
- 20:56:59 [rscano]
- wendy not yet available the italian WCAG conformance :(
- 20:57:12 [Yvette]
- I will stay for the 4.1 discussion but might leave after that if my throat becomes too irritated
- 20:57:22 [wendy]
- i know. but, it's not my issue anymore. shadi is supposed to take care of it.
- 20:57:51 [Yvette]
- I saw the Brussels meeting will probably be moved to the summer on the WCAG group page
- 20:58:27 [Yvette]
- Summer is fine with me as well, it would have been fun to meet some of you this spring though
- 20:58:35 [Zakim]
- WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has now started
- 20:58:42 [Zakim]
- +[IBM]
- 20:58:44 [rcastaldo]
- rcastaldo has joined #wai-wcag
- 20:58:48 [rellero]
- ciao
- 20:58:49 [Yvette]
- Hi Rob#3
- 20:58:49 [Zakim]
- -[IBM]
- 20:58:50 [Zakim]
- WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has ended
- 20:58:51 [Zakim]
- Attendees were [IBM]
- 20:59:02 [Yvette]
- Shortest WCAG meeting in history
- 20:59:02 [rcastaldo]
- Hi Yvette :-)
- 20:59:09 [rcastaldo]
- Ciao everybody
- 20:59:12 [rscano]
- zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG()
- 20:59:12 [Zakim]
- ok, rscano, I see WAI_WCAG()4:00PM already started
- 20:59:18 [wendy]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 20:59:18 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Wendy
- 20:59:30 [Zakim]
- + +1.408.635.aaaa
- 21:00:03 [wendy]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 21:00:03 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Wendy, +1.408.635.aaaa
- 21:00:08 [Zakim]
- + +1.408.635.aabb
- 21:00:09 [Zakim]
- +??P19
- 21:00:18 [wendy]
- zakim, +1.408.635.aaaa is Roberto_Scano
- 21:00:18 [Zakim]
- +Roberto_Scano; got it
- 21:00:25 [wendy]
- zakim, ??P19 is Doyle_Burnett
- 21:00:25 [Zakim]
- +Doyle_Burnett; got it
- 21:00:30 [rscano]
- zakim, 01+1.408.635.aabb is Roberto_Castaldo
- 21:00:30 [Zakim]
- sorry, rscano, I do not recognize a party named '01+1.408.635.aabb'
- 21:00:53 [wendy]
- zakim, +1.408.635.aabb is Roberto_Castaldo
- 21:00:53 [Zakim]
- +Roberto_Castaldo; got it
- 21:00:58 [wendy]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 21:00:58 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Wendy, Roberto_Scano, Roberto_Castaldo, Doyle_Burnett
- 21:01:06 [Zakim]
- +??P21
- 21:01:10 [rscano]
- zakim, i am Roberto_Scano
- 21:01:10 [Zakim]
- ok, rscano, I now associate you with Roberto_Scano
- 21:01:16 [rscano]
- zakim, ??P21 is Yvette
- 21:01:17 [Zakim]
- +Yvette; got it
- 21:01:53 [Yvette]
- zakim, Yvette is Yvette_Hoitink
- 21:01:53 [Zakim]
- +Yvette_Hoitink; got it
- 21:01:59 [Yvette]
- zakim, I am Yvette_Hoitink
- 21:02:00 [Zakim]
- ok, Yvette, I now associate you with Yvette_Hoitink
- 21:02:05 [Zakim]
- +Matt
- 21:02:23 [wendy]
- agenda?
- 21:02:44 [Zakim]
- +??P20
- 21:02:45 [wendy]
- agenda+ 4.1 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JanMar/0087.html
- 21:02:56 [wendy]
- zakim, ??P20 is Gregg-and-Ben
- 21:02:56 [Zakim]
- +Gregg-and-Ben; got it
- 21:02:57 [Zakim]
- +JasonWhite
- 21:03:00 [rscano]
- agenda+ Guideline 3.3:
- 21:03:01 [rscano]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JanMar/0089.html
- 21:03:01 [Zakim]
- +[Microsoft]
- 21:03:09 [Yvette]
- zakim, mute me
- 21:03:09 [Zakim]
- Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
- 21:03:12 [wendy]
- agenda+ 3.3 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JanMar/0089.html
- 21:03:16 [bcaldwell]
- bcaldwell has joined #wai-wcag
- 21:03:22 [rscano]
- zakim, mute me
- 21:03:22 [Zakim]
- Roberto_Scano should now be muted
- 21:03:23 [Zakim]
- +Loretta_Guarino_Reid
- 21:03:26 [wendy]
- drop agendum 2
- 21:03:29 [wendy]
- agenda?
- 21:03:41 [wendy]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 21:03:41 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Wendy, Roberto_Scano (muted), Roberto_Castaldo, Doyle_Burnett, Yvette_Hoitink (muted), Matt, Gregg-and-Ben, JasonWhite, [Microsoft], Loretta_Guarino_Reid
- 21:03:47 [Zakim]
- +Roberto_Castaldo.a
- 21:03:50 [Zakim]
- -Roberto_Castaldo.a
- 21:03:58 [Zakim]
- +John_Slatin
- 21:04:09 [Zakim]
- +[IBM]
- 21:04:32 [Zakim]
- +Roberto_Castaldo.a
- 21:04:36 [Zakim]
- -Roberto_Castaldo.a
- 21:04:52 [Yvette]
- zakim, unmute me
- 21:04:52 [Zakim]
- Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
- 21:05:32 [bengt]
- bengt has joined #wai-wcag
- 21:06:16 [Zakim]
- +Roberto_Castaldo.a
- 21:06:18 [wendy]
- 4.1 for markup, 4.2 for non-markup. guideline is wider than success criterion
- 21:07:12 [wendy]
- should 4.1 apply to non-markup as well?
- 21:07:17 [bengt]
- zakim, who is here ?
- 21:07:17 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Wendy, Roberto_Scano (muted), Roberto_Castaldo, Doyle_Burnett, Yvette_Hoitink, Matt, Gregg-and-Ben, JasonWhite, [Microsoft], Loretta_Guarino_Reid, John_Slatin,
- 21:07:20 [Zakim]
- ... [IBM], Roberto_Castaldo.a
- 21:07:21 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see bengt, bcaldwell, rcastaldo, RRSAgent, rellero, Yvette, silvia, Zakim, wendy, rscano
- 21:07:26 [rscano]
- zakim, 01+Roberto_Castaldo.a is Bengt_Farre
- 21:07:26 [Zakim]
- sorry, rscano, I do not recognize a party named '01+Roberto_Castaldo.a'
- 21:07:49 [bengt]
- zakim, Roberto_Castalda.a is Bengt_Farre
- 21:07:49 [Zakim]
- sorry, bengt, I do not recognize a party named 'Roberto_Castalda.a'
- 21:07:52 [wendy]
- "use according to spec" should apply to other types of technology.
- 21:08:06 [bengt]
- zakim, Roberto_Castaldo.a is Bengt_Farre
- 21:08:08 [Zakim]
- +Bengt_Farre; got it
- 21:08:17 [wendy]
- Guideline 4.1 Technologies are used according to specification.
- 21:08:17 [wendy]
- Guideline 4.2 Programmatic user interfaces are accessible or alternative, accessible versions are provided
- 21:11:02 [wendy]
- "structural elements and attributs as used in the spec" have read that as generic elements of technology
- 21:11:21 [Zakim]
- +Bengt_Farre.a
- 21:11:21 [wendy]
- in javascript, have "objects" rather than "elements"
- 21:11:25 [Zakim]
- -Bengt_Farre.a
- 21:11:34 [wendy]
- unless "elements" used as "pieces"
- 21:11:54 [wendy]
- "components are used"
- 21:12:44 [rellero]
- Unfortunately also this week dialpad does not work
- 21:12:46 [wendy]
- "features"
- 21:13:42 [wendy]
- if say, "features are used as specified" then use things as people expect them to use.
- 21:15:05 [wendy]
- replace "structural elements and attributes are used as defined in the specification" with "features..."
- 21:15:56 [wendy]
- b, c, d all say something about "features"
- 21:16:34 [wendy]
- a: what does validity test mean? use deprecated features?
- 21:17:01 [wendy]
- how many people feel using transitional html is ok for accessibility?
- 21:17:07 [Protty]
- Protty has joined #wai-wcag
- 21:17:30 [wendy]
- if you can use html 1.0 or 2.0 or 4.0, then transitional shouldn't be a question.
- 21:17:41 [wendy]
- q+ wendy
- 21:17:54 [wendy]
- what if someone writes their own dtd?
- 21:18:28 [rellero]
- rellero has joined #wai-wcag
- 21:18:49 [wendy]
- can use own dtd if meet other wcag 2.0 guidelines.
- 21:18:58 [rscano]
- custom DTD like these that help to oversize problems with W3C DTD: http://www.juicystudio.com/tutorial/xhtml/module.asp
- 21:19:00 [rellero]
- rellero has joined #wai-wcag
- 21:19:01 [wendy]
- if i meet the other guidelines, why do i have to meet this one?
- 21:19:47 [wendy]
- e.g., dtd that includes embed, passes validity tests.
- 21:20:05 [wendy]
- only viable way to include multimedia in today's browsers.
- 21:21:01 [Zakim]
- +Bengt_Farre.a
- 21:21:03 [Zakim]
- -Bengt_Farre.a
- 21:23:18 [rellero_]
- rellero_ has joined #wai-wcag
- 21:26:44 [Zakim]
- +Bengt_Farre.a
- 21:26:48 [Zakim]
- -Bengt_Farre.a
- 21:28:20 [wendy]
- expect untechnical people to declare appropriate dtd/schema? expect the tool to do that for them.
- 21:28:43 [wendy]
- validity test for javascript?
- 21:29:27 [wendy]
- testing javascript is tested by running, not so much a validator.
- 21:29:49 [wendy]
- anyone program according to ECMAScript spec?
- 21:30:22 [wendy]
- (joe claims that only zeldman does: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JanMar/0093.html)
- 21:30:40 [wendy]
- browsers claim conformance to different versions of ECMAScript.
- 21:30:48 [wendy]
- ECMAScript evolves, then gets documented.
- 21:31:06 [wendy]
- if we extend 4.1 beyond markup, then how deal with these issues?
- 21:31:43 [wendy]
- ECMA 2.6.2, yes open
- 21:32:26 [Zakim]
- -Doyle_Burnett
- 21:33:14 [MattSEA]
- MattSEA has joined #wai-wcag
- 21:33:16 [MattSEA]
- q+
- 21:33:33 [Zakim]
- +Doyle_Burnett
- 21:34:22 [wendy]
- 4.1: PDF (marked up), markup
- 21:34:31 [wendy]
- 4.2: use accessibility features when available: also apply to markup
- 21:34:41 [wendy]
- 4.1: use tech according to spec
- 21:34:44 [rscano]
- rscano has joined #wai-wcag
- 21:34:50 [wendy]
- 4.2: use accessibility features when availble
- 21:34:53 [wendy]
- q-
- 21:34:55 [wendy]
- ack matt
- 21:35:11 [wendy]
- conformance to ecmascript standard says "does what standard says and nothing more"
- 21:35:17 [wendy]
- all engines do whatever they want
- 21:35:22 [wendy]
- ecmascript is baseline
- 21:36:24 [wendy]
- 1. use tech according to spec
- 21:36:34 [wendy]
- 2. make custom user interface accessible or provide alternatives
- 21:36:58 [wendy]
- 3. declared and widely available (technique for 4.2)
- 21:37:29 [wendy]
- why use things according to spec? primarily user interface
- 21:38:04 [wendy]
- if use tech according to spec, interfaces built for them will be accessible.
- 21:38:16 [wendy]
- then #2 are scripting, and other custom.
- 21:38:30 [wendy]
- could use script according to spec and make something inaccessible.
- 21:38:32 [Zakim]
- +Bengt_Farre.a
- 21:38:38 [Zakim]
- -Bengt_Farre.a
- 21:38:47 [Zakim]
- +Dave_MacDonald
- 21:38:48 [wendy]
- 1. use tech according to spec
- 21:39:08 [wendy]
- 2. make custom interfaces accessible or provide an alternative
- 21:40:19 [wendy]
- q+ to say "tech according to spec - includes scripting langs?"
- 21:41:04 [wendy]
- accessibility features goes into 4.2?
- 21:43:21 [wendy]
- now have markup stuff in both guidelines as well as non-markup stuff in both
- 21:43:25 [wendy]
- 1. use according to spec
- 21:43:41 [wendy]
- 2. user interfaces accessible or provide alternative (use accessibility features)
- 21:44:03 [wendy]
- "custom user interfaces" ??
- 21:44:47 [wendy]
- not just custom.
- 21:45:21 [Zakim]
- -Doyle_Burnett
- 21:45:35 [wendy]
- what do we mean by custom user interface? is html custom? if meant to mean "only those things you write w/code" then if player is inaccessible, but use spec then did not do anythign custom but it is not accessible.
- 21:45:59 [wendy]
- q+ to say "propose that someone take an aciton to draft 2 new guidelines. move on to other big issues with this guideline"
- 21:46:39 [wendy]
- don't say "custom" nor "programmatic" plainly "user interfaces..."
- 21:48:47 [wendy]
- action: gregg and ben take first pass at proposal for rewriting 4.1 and 4.2 based on today's discussion.
- 21:49:14 [wendy]
- if you say "user interface" in general, some people might think that what they are creating with content don't apply.
- 21:49:25 [wendy]
- every type of web content has a user interface.
- 21:49:40 [wendy]
- 4.2 be interpreted to be the only thing that applies to user interfaces.
- 21:49:54 [wendy]
- (concerns about how could be misinterpreted if only use "user interface")
- 21:51:40 [wendy]
- "accessibility features are used" - in html you have accessibility features that can be useful, but in most cases optional rather than applicable (e.g., accesskey) - not useful everywhere.
- 21:51:49 [wendy]
- if make it level 1, then accessibility features are required everywhere.
- 21:52:26 [wendy]
- specify the effect not the method
- 21:52:37 [wendy]
- then goes into techniques?
- 21:53:52 [wendy]
- perhaps 4.2 already written in this manner, "if visual...then..."
- 21:54:18 [wendy]
- many accessibility features are implemented for other reasons
- 21:54:56 [wendy]
- delete: c & d in 4.1
- 21:56:17 [wendy]
- collapse 4.3 into 4.2 and 4.1?
- 21:56:26 [wendy]
- is 4.3 a technique for achieving 4.2 and 4.1?
- 21:56:32 [wendy]
- or is it a criterion?
- 21:57:13 [wendy]
- "declared" seems 4.1 (you validate to that)
- 21:57:29 [wendy]
- "widely avaiable" seems 4.2 (related to user agent support and baseline)
- 21:59:12 [wendy]
- q?
- 21:59:18 [wendy]
- q-
- 22:04:06 [wendy]
- ack John
- 22:04:09 [wendy]
- ack Dave
- 22:04:59 [wendy]
- zakim, who's muted?
- 22:04:59 [Zakim]
- I see Roberto_Scano, Dave_MacDonald muted
- 22:05:42 [wendy]
- agenda?
- 22:05:43 [Yvette]
- Zakim, mute me
- 22:05:47 [Zakim]
- Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
- 22:05:51 [wendy]
- zakim, close agendum 1
- 22:05:51 [Zakim]
- agendum 1 closed
- 22:05:52 [Zakim]
- I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
- 22:05:53 [Zakim]
- 2. 3.3 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JanMar/0089.html [from wendy]
- 22:05:58 [wendy]
- zakim, take up agendum 2
- 22:05:58 [Zakim]
- agendum 2. "3.3 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JanMar/0089.html" taken up [from wendy]
- 22:08:17 [wendy]
- John provides summary of proposal and summary
- 22:08:32 [wendy]
- 1. plain language proposals, best step forward at this point
- 22:08:54 [wendy]
- 2. some people think that this issue is usability not accessibility
- 22:11:11 [wendy]
- address the 2nd type of comments by saying that we do believe that some language issues are within our scope.
- 22:11:42 [wendy]
- in plain language proposal, move some of this to 2.5
- 22:13:34 [Yvette]
- Sorry people, I have to excuse myself for the rest of the meeting because I'm not feeling well
- 22:13:42 [Zakim]
- -Yvette_Hoitink
- 22:14:02 [silvia]
- bye Yvette!
- 22:14:16 [Yvette]
- By silvia, cu later
- 22:14:23 [Yvette]
- Yvette has left #wai-wcag
- 22:14:47 [wendy]
- proposal to put 3.3 as a level 2 in larger guideline.
- 22:15:03 [wendy]
- underlying problem: people don't understand the text on the page (acronyms, etc.).
- 22:15:11 [wendy]
- it's a separate item, but it is part of making text ...
- 22:16:03 [wendy]
- Guideline 3.1 Language of content can be programmatically determined.
- 22:16:27 [wendy]
- that would give acronyms, abbreviations...be in dictionary or glossary
- 22:16:50 [wendy]
- level 2: design so not more complex than necessary... (i.e., 3.3)
- 22:17:15 [wendy]
- or 3.2?
- 22:17:24 [wendy]
- Guideline 3.2 The definition of abbreviations and acronyms can be unambiguously determined.
- 22:18:20 [wendy]
- what can we move to level 1?
- 22:23:09 [MattSEA]
- q+
- 22:23:13 [Zakim]
- -[Microsoft]
- 22:23:28 [Zakim]
- +[Microsoft]
- 22:23:53 [rscano]
- rscano has joined #wai-wcag
- 22:24:04 [wendy]
- concern about testability of: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=649
- 22:24:12 [wendy]
- can we say "content has been reviewed"
- 22:24:51 [wendy]
- "this checkpoint tries to capture 3500 years of intellectual history"
- 22:24:57 [wendy]
- ack matt
- 22:26:26 [wendy]
- "we have strategies for people who have no vision; we have no strategies for people who have no cognition"
- 22:27:13 [wendy]
- it is fair for physicists to write for physicists. is it fair for amazon to say that?
- 22:27:25 [wendy]
- not fair if purposefully try to exclude people with disabilities.
- 22:27:58 [wendy]
- if remove, "have been reviewed..." and look at list of things to review for, perhaps can find properties that can be present or absent.
- 22:28:04 [wendy]
- require them at level 2?
- 22:28:27 [wendy]
- level 2 is still generally applicable
- 22:29:30 [wendy]
- perhaps: acronyms/abbreviations (level 1), determine from list in 3.3 which apply across all sites (level 2), those that are less widly applicable (level 3)
- 22:29:47 [wendy]
- "we don't make any sites talk" possible that technology can transform into speech.
- 22:30:20 [wendy]
- collapse 3.1, 3.2, and 3.3 into one guideline?
- 22:31:13 [wendy]
- 3.3 has always success criteria related to structure, that goes beyond words and phrases.
- 22:34:01 [wendy]
- 3.1 - (if combine 3.1, 3.2, 3.3) do you understand the content, new 3.2 becomes do you understand how to operate what is there.
- 22:34:24 [wendy]
- don't want to impose structure in content (effects way people write, can't do at level 1)
- 22:34:58 [wendy]
- major components are machine-readable
- 22:34:59 [wendy]
- ?
- 22:37:21 [wendy]
- don't add structure to document that doesn't inherently have it.
- 22:37:31 [wendy]
- (if don't need it)
- 22:37:53 [wendy]
- in some cases, don't need to add headings/titles because there isn't enough to break up.
- 22:38:13 [wendy]
- in other cases, there are blocks of text that are obviously chapters.
- 22:38:44 [wendy]
- archival material is counter-example.
- 22:38:50 [wendy]
- (because can't change the content).
- 22:39:09 [wendy]
- rather, if possible to change content, then structure is there. otherwise, doesn't make sense to add abstract structure. just dividing it up not structuring.
- 22:39:29 [wendy]
- 3.3.1.d - could be in 2.4, where we talk about structure.
- 22:40:05 [wendy]
- have to perceive the organization
- 22:40:50 [wendy]
- action: gregg propose reorg of 3.1, 3.2, 3.3
- 22:41:04 [wendy]
- actions?
- 22:41:04 [RRSAgent]
- sees 2 open action items:
- 22:41:04 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: gregg and ben take first pass at proposal for rewriting 4.1 and 4.2 based on today's discussion. [1]
- 22:41:04 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/01/22-wai-wcag-irc#T21-48-47
- 22:41:04 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: gregg propose reorg of 3.1, 3.2, 3.3 [2]
- 22:41:04 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/01/22-wai-wcag-irc#T22-40-50
- 22:42:44 [wendy]
- action: john determine from list in 3.3 which items apply across all sites (level 2), those that are less widely applicable (level 3)
- 22:44:08 [rcastaldo]
- Bye
- 22:44:10 [Zakim]
- -[IBM]
- 22:44:11 [Zakim]
- -Loretta_Guarino_Reid
- 22:44:11 [rellero_]
- bye
- 22:44:12 [Zakim]
- -[Microsoft]
- 22:44:13 [Zakim]
- -Bengt_Farre
- 22:44:13 [rscano]
- night to all
- 22:44:13 [bengt]
- bye
- 22:44:14 [Zakim]
- -Gregg-and-Ben
- 22:44:15 [Zakim]
- -Wendy
- 22:44:16 [Zakim]
- -Dave_MacDonald
- 22:44:17 [Zakim]
- -Matt
- 22:44:19 [rcastaldo]
- rcastaldo has left #wai-wcag
- 22:44:19 [Zakim]
- -John_Slatin
- 22:44:20 [Zakim]
- -Roberto_Scano
- 22:44:20 [bengt]
- bengt has left #wai-wcag
- 22:44:22 [Zakim]
- -JasonWhite
- 22:44:44 [rscano]
- rscano has left #wai-wcag
- 22:44:58 [silvia]
- night!
- 22:47:08 [Zakim]
- -Roberto_Castaldo
- 22:47:09 [Zakim]
- WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has ended
- 22:47:10 [Zakim]
- Attendees were Wendy, Roberto_Scano, Doyle_Burnett, Roberto_Castaldo, Yvette_Hoitink, Matt, Gregg-and-Ben, JasonWhite, [Microsoft], Loretta_Guarino_Reid, John_Slatin, [IBM],
- 22:47:12 [Zakim]
- ... Bengt_Farre, Dave_MacDonald
- 22:48:12 [wendy]
- zakim, bye
- 22:48:12 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #wai-wcag
- 22:48:16 [wendy]
- RRSAgent, bye
- 22:48:16 [RRSAgent]
- I see 3 open action items:
- 22:48:16 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: gregg and ben take first pass at proposal for rewriting 4.1 and 4.2 based on today's discussion. [1]
- 22:48:16 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/01/22-wai-wcag-irc#T21-48-47
- 22:48:16 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: gregg propose reorg of 3.1, 3.2, 3.3 [2]
- 22:48:16 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/01/22-wai-wcag-irc#T22-40-50
- 22:48:16 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: john determine from list in 3.3 which items apply across all sites (level 2), those that are less widely applicable (level 3) [3]
- 22:48:16 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/01/22-wai-wcag-irc#T22-42-44