IRC log of wai-wcag on 2004-01-15
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 21:12:21 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
- 21:13:04 [Yvette]
- Wendy: refine the note with the checkpoint but don't depricate the checkpoint, delete the phrase 'until user agents...'
- 21:13:24 [MichaelC]
- ack Wendy
- 21:13:43 [Zakim]
- +Avi_Arditti
- 21:14:19 [rellero]
- rellero has joined #wai-wcag
- 21:14:30 [ben]
- ack Andi
- 21:14:37 [ben]
- ack IBM
- 21:14:45 [rscano]
- ack [IBM]
- 21:14:47 [Yvette]
- Andy: deleting 'until user agent' removes the rational behind the checkpoint
- 21:14:57 [Yvette]
- this changes the guideline
- 21:15:34 [Yvette]
- If 'until user agent' is dropped, is it still priority 2? Or can it be dropped down to 3?
- 21:15:44 [Zakim]
- +??P25
- 21:15:48 [Zakim]
- -??P25
- 21:15:48 [rellero]
- zakim, I am Roberto_Ellero
- 21:15:49 [Zakim]
- sorry, rellero, I do not see a party named 'Roberto_Ellero'
- 21:15:56 [Yvette]
- John - Makes great difference to people using screen magnifiers, so should remain priority 2
- 21:16:14 [rellero]
- zakim, I am rellero
- 21:16:14 [Zakim]
- sorry, rellero, I do not see a party named 'rellero'
- 21:16:36 [Yvette]
- Not known if screen magnifiers support explicit association of labels
- 21:16:44 [Yvette]
- Wendy can do more research
- 21:17:41 [Yvette]
- Some screen magnifiers have their own browsers, unknown if they support label tag
- 21:18:50 [Yvette]
- How many user agents have to support something before we deprecate 'until user agents clauses'?
- 21:20:13 [Yvette]
- Wendy - Adaptations to WCAG 1 should be in spirit with the original intent
- 21:21:04 [Yvette]
- If magnifyers don't adequately support label, the 'until user agent' should stay.
- 21:21:28 [Yvette]
- What would label support look like in screen magnifyer?
- 21:21:49 [Yvette]
- Normally, magnifyers only deal with visual display of the page, not underlying structure
- 21:21:52 [rellero]
- rellero has joined #wai-wcag
- 21:22:32 [Zakim]
- +??P25
- 21:22:32 [Yvette]
- Good lay-out can help (vertical stacking of controls, etc)
- 21:22:36 [Zakim]
- -??P25
- 21:22:52 [Yvette]
- Users using a mag tend to miss stuff on the right
- 21:22:56 [rellero]
- Sorry, I can follow only in irc
- 21:23:01 [Zakim]
- -Wendy
- 21:24:14 [Yvette]
- How would labels help for magnifyers? Several possibilities from reformatting the form to Perhaps reformat the form to additional help on form elements
- 21:25:15 [Yvette]
- What's the label-support in text browsers?
- 21:27:25 [Yvette]
- WE're going for Wendy's first proposal
- 21:27:40 [Zakim]
- +Gregg_Vanderheiden
- 21:27:49 [Yvette]
- The checkpoint stays, the note will be clarified
- 21:28:06 [Yvette]
- It stays level 2
- 21:29:53 [Yvette]
- New topic: Guideline 2.1 of WCAG 2
- 21:30:06 [Yvette]
- includes discussion about definition for 'keyboard interface'
- 21:31:14 [Yvette]
- Michael's version + edits was well received
- 21:34:16 [rscano]
- and use: keyboard or keyboard equivalent?
- 21:34:37 [Yvette]
- Michael + 2:On devices that do not have a built-in or attached keyboards, there is usually an alternate method for connecting a keyboard to the device for the purpose of entering text.
- 21:34:37 [Yvette]
- Allowing control via the "keyboard interface" means that the content could be controlled through commands issued from the keyboard or by alternate entry methods that are capable of generating text as if a keyboard had been used.
- 21:35:03 [Yvette]
- Add "internal or external" in the second sentence?
- 21:35:18 [Yvette]
- ... alternate internal or external entry methods...
- 21:36:06 [Yvette]
- Can add third sentence
- 21:37:56 [Yvette]
- Word 'text' is bit difficult, other variants 'keystrokes', 'commands' have their own problems
- 21:39:00 [Yvette]
- 'entering text' is too narrow, it's also for operating the device
- 21:39:09 [Yvette]
- but text is used for operation as well
- 21:39:33 [Yvette]
- First sentence should read '... purpose of generating text' (use generating instead of entering)
- 21:41:47 [Yvette]
- Some shops have internet computers without keyboards to 'trap' you on their own website
- 21:42:30 [Yvette]
- sentence 1 + 'or an internal method for generating text'
- 21:43:34 [Yvette]
- sentence 2 "alternate methods' instead of 'alternate entry methods'
- 21:44:10 [rscano]
- "for enter data" i think is best that "insert text"
- 21:46:25 [Yvette]
- used to be "requires character input", perhaps that was not so bad
- 21:46:35 [Yvette]
- Word 'text' is ambiguous
- 21:46:37 [rscano]
- yes
- 21:47:42 [rscano]
- dfn for keyboard: http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/k/keyboard.html
- 21:47:54 [Yvette]
- What was the purpose of this checkpoint?
- 21:48:17 [Yvette]
- Some aspects are covered by other checkpoints
- 21:48:45 [Yvette]
- Andy can't think of anything you can do that isn't covered by 4.2
- 21:49:15 [Yvette]
- Counter-example: mouse-over only isn't keyboard friendly
- 21:49:53 [Yvette]
- 4.2 has to do with robustness, not operability
- 21:50:10 [Yvette]
- Does 4.2 really belong under operability instead of robustness?
- 21:50:23 [Yvette]
- Perhaps combined with 2.1?
- 21:50:53 [Yvette]
- Mouseovers etc. are programmatic interfaces
- 21:51:29 [Yvette]
- :hover isn't
- 21:52:29 [Yvette]
- 4.2 is about custom interface elements and display, so can't be combined with 2.1
- 21:55:12 [Yvette]
- Be careful to keep success criteria out of the definitions
- 21:56:02 [Yvette]
- efficiency by keyboard is another layer: perhaps we can attach a note to checkpoint 2.1
- 21:57:44 [Yvette]
- Definition of event handler (just posted on mailinglist) sounds good
- 21:58:33 [Yvette]
- Text for guideline 2.1 itself is being rewritten
- 21:58:57 [Yvette]
- Andy is working on definitions
- 21:59:29 [Yvette]
- Event handler: A section of code that responds to an action taken by the user (or user agent). On web pages, events are usually user actions such as moving the mouse, typing, etc. An event handler determines the response to that action. A technology specific event handler only responds to an action by one kind of input device. An abstract an event handler is one which can be activated by a variety of input devices.
- 22:00:16 [Yvette]
- Defition for "functions or outcomes that can be expressed in words"
- 22:00:51 [Yvette]
- Def: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JanMar/0048.html
- 22:02:50 [Yvette]
- Definition itself cannot be expressed in words, apparently
- 22:04:08 [Yvette]
- Difficult to express sensory experience in words
- 22:07:04 [Yvette]
- Goal: To not require keyboard access for for example watercolor application
- 22:08:29 [Yvette]
- Some things are just not possible to be done from keyboard
- 22:08:29 [Zakim]
- -Michael_Cooper
- 22:09:46 [Yvette]
- Does functionality can be expressed into words necessary for keyboard control?
- 22:09:58 [Yvette]
- s/does/is
- 22:10:15 [Yvette]
- If you can't describe the function into words, you cannot operate it from a keyboard
- 22:12:10 [Yvette]
- For example: try to describe how to hold a brush to make 1 brushstroke
- 22:12:43 [Yvette]
- "Concise" was supposed to be included in the definition but isn't there
- 22:13:36 [Yvette]
- use "labelling it" instead of "express in words"? No, 'Label' is confusing since part of HTML
- 22:16:40 [Yvette]
- Perhaps change to "expressed in a sentence" to make sure no 25 p. novels appear
- 22:16:52 [Yvette]
- Get's rid of 'concise' as well
- 22:21:05 [Yvette]
- 2.1 Level 1 Success criteria: "If the action or the outcome can be expressed in a sentence it should be operable from a keyboard or keyboard interface."
- 22:21:43 [Yvette]
- Readers will think "What does expression in sentence have to do with keyboard interface?"
- 22:22:28 [Yvette]
- Correction: "all of the functionality of the content, where the functionality or its outcome can be expressed in a sentence, is operable at a minimum through a keyboard or keyboard interface. "
- 22:23:13 [Yvette]
- Don't want to suggest authors should build natural language interfaces
- 22:23:28 [Yvette]
- perhaps 'described in a sentence'
- 22:31:27 [Yvette]
- drop 'at a minimum', + "Other interfaces such as a mouse can be provided in addition."
- 22:33:04 [Yvette]
- New 2.1 formulation: all of the functionality of the content, where the functionality or its outcome can be described in a sentence, is operable through a keyboard or keyboard interface.
- 22:33:23 [Yvette]
- New explanatory note: Other interfaces such as a mouse can be provided in addition.
- 22:36:12 [Zakim]
- -[IBM]
- 22:36:13 [ben]
- RRSAgent, bye
- 22:36:13 [RRSAgent]
- I see no action items
- 22:36:14 [Zakim]
- -Loretta_Guarino_Reid