IRC log of webont on 2003-05-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:08:30 [RRSAgent]
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15:08:35 [DanC]
Zakim, this will be WEBO
15:08:36 [Zakim]
ok, DanC; I see SW_WebOnt()12:00PM scheduled to start in 52 minutes
15:19:07 [DanC]
agenda 1= 1May agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003May/0006.html
15:31:52 [jhendler]
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15:32:00 [DanC]
http://www.w3.org/Guide/pubrules#namespaces
15:32:07 [DanC]
-> http://www.w3.org/1999/10/nsuri
15:59:49 [Zakim]
SW_WebOnt()12:00PM has now started
15:59:58 [Zakim]
+Ian_Horrocks
16:00:13 [IanH]
IanH has joined #webont
16:00:31 [Zakim]
-Ian_Horrocks
16:00:32 [Zakim]
+DanC
16:01:10 [Zakim]
+Ian_Horrocks
16:01:26 [mdean]
mdean has joined #webont
16:02:00 [Zakim]
+Mike_Dean
16:02:21 [Zakim]
+Tim_Finin
16:02:45 [DanC]
Zakim, Tim_Finin is really JeffH
16:02:45 [Zakim]
+JeffH; got it
16:02:47 [Zakim]
+??P9
16:02:48 [Zakim]
+[UMD]
16:02:51 [Zakim]
+Evan_Wallace
16:03:03 [jhendler]
zakim, [umd] is JimH
16:03:03 [Zakim]
+JimH; got it
16:03:40 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:03:41 [Zakim]
On the phone I see DanC, Ian_Horrocks, Mike_Dean, JeffH, ??P9, JimH, Evan_Wallace
16:03:47 [Zakim]
-JeffH
16:04:33 [Zakim]
+Tim_Finin
16:04:41 [Zakim]
+??P14
16:04:46 [DanC]
Zakim, Tim_Finin is really JeffH
16:04:46 [Zakim]
+JeffH; got it
16:04:57 [DanC]
Zakim, ??P14 is Tim_Finin
16:04:57 [Zakim]
+Tim_Finin; got it
16:04:59 [jhendler]
zakim, ??p14 is TimF
16:04:59 [Zakim]
sorry, jhendler, I do not recognize a party named '??p14'
16:05:09 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:05:09 [Zakim]
On the phone I see DanC, Ian_Horrocks, Mike_Dean, Hori, JimH, Evan_Wallace, JeffH, Tim_Finin
16:05:23 [Zakim]
+Deb_Mcguinness
16:05:27 [JosD]
JosD has joined #webont
16:06:36 [jhendler]
zakim, who is here?
16:06:36 [Zakim]
On the phone I see DanC, Ian_Horrocks, Mike_Dean, Hori, JimH, Evan_Wallace, JeffH, Tim_Finin, Deb_Mcguinness
16:06:38 [Zakim]
On IRC I see JosD, mdean, IanH, jhendler, RRSAgent, logger, Zakim, DanC
16:07:02 [DeborahMc]
DeborahMc has joined #webont
16:07:11 [DanC]
regrets: DeRoo, Stanton, Sabbouh, Obrst
16:07:36 [DanC]
regrets: DeRoo, Stanton, Sabbouh, Obrst, Carroll
16:08:14 [DanC]
----- 1.2 Minutes previous telecon
16:08:21 [DanC]
Proposed to accept as a true record of the April 24,2003 telcon:
16:08:21 [DanC]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Apr/0165.html
16:08:22 [DanC]
(plus addition of Leo Obrst in attendance)
16:08:28 [DanC]
so RESOLVED
16:08:36 [DanC]
----- 1.3 Agenda amendments
16:09:11 [ChrisW]
ChrisW has joined #webont
16:09:44 [DanC]
maybe QA stuff
16:09:50 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
16:09:52 [DanC]
----- 1.4 Telecon schedule
16:09:58 [jhendler]
zakim, pick a scribe
16:09:58 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Evan_Wallace
16:10:01 [DanC]
- next telecon: May 8
16:10:15 [DanC]
Wallace to scribe.
16:10:24 [DanC]
----- 1.5 ACTION Item Review
16:10:49 [DanC]
ACTION: Patel-Schneider to work on proof for issue 5.26 B1,B2
16:10:50 [DanC]
(target completion date: not before May 1)
16:10:51 [DanC]
CONTINUES.
16:10:56 [Zakim]
+[EDS]
16:11:02 [DanC]
ACTION Hendler Ask for some pre-LC comments to be resent.
16:11:02 [DanC]
DONE
16:11:17 [DanC]
ACTION Jeff Heflin to add reference section to requirements document
16:11:18 [DanC]
DONE
16:11:42 [DanC]
ACTION IanH report on running Lite tests (less datatypes) thru some implementation, e.g. racer
16:11:44 [DanC]
in progress.
16:11:50 [DanC]
ACTION: IanH report on running Lite tests (less datatypes) thru some implementation, e.g. racer
16:11:52 [DanC]
contineus
16:12:26 [DanC]
ACTION JJC: point the commentor at 4.x in the test doc and see if that satisfies the comment on reference.
16:12:31 [DanC]
CONTINUES.
16:12:46 [DanC]
ACTION Guus: keep the commentor up to date on discussion of Nothing in Lite
16:12:48 [DanC]
CONTINUES
16:13:15 [DanC]
--- 2. Test document (10-15 min)
16:13:40 [DanC]
JimH: target looks like 8May
16:13:57 [DanC]
... [something about possible QCR...]
16:15:23 [DanC]
from Horrocks on tests http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Apr/0193.html
16:16:03 [DanC]
IanH: <cardinality/Manifest001#test>
16:16:03 [DanC]
<cardinality/Manifest002#test>
16:16:03 [DanC]
<cardinality/Manifest003#test>
16:16:03 [DanC]
<cardinality/Manifest004#test>
16:16:07 [DanC]
look ok to me.
16:16:21 [Zakim]
+??P27
16:16:28 [DanC]
RESOLVED to approve those 4 tests.
16:16:37 [jhendler]
zakim, ??p27 is charlesW
16:16:37 [Zakim]
+charlesW; got it
16:16:58 [DanC]
Ian: these look good
16:17:00 [DanC]
<equivalentClass/Manifest006#test>
16:17:01 [DanC]
<I5.2/Manifest001#test>
16:17:01 [DanC]
<I5.2/Manifest002#test>
16:18:19 [DanC]
RESOLVED to approve those those 3.
16:19:07 [DanC]
proposed: <description-logic/Manifest001#test>
16:19:07 [DanC]
<description-logic/Manifest002#test>
16:19:07 [DanC]
<description-logic/Manifest003#test>
16:19:07 [DanC]
<description-logic/Manifest004#test>
16:19:08 [DanC]
<description-logic/Manifest005#test>
16:19:10 [DanC]
<description-logic/Manifest105#test>
16:19:12 [DanC]
<description-logic/Manifest106#test>
16:19:14 [DanC]
<description-logic/Manifest901#test>
16:19:16 [DanC]
<description-logic/Manifest902#test>
16:19:18 [DanC]
<description-logic/Manifest903#test>
16:19:20 [DanC]
<description-logic/Manifest904#test>
16:19:33 [DanC]
so RESOLVED.
16:20:11 [DanC]
--- 3. LC Comments (30-40 min)
16:20:27 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is here?
16:20:27 [Zakim]
On the phone I see DanC, Ian_Horrocks, Mike_Dean, Hori, JimH, Evan_Wallace, JeffH, Tim_Finin, Deb_Mcguinness, [IBM], [EDS], charlesW
16:20:29 [Zakim]
On IRC I see ChrisW, DeborahMc, JosD, mdean, IanH, jhendler, RRSAgent, logger, Zakim, DanC
16:20:32 [DanC]
3,1 add owl:Nothing to OWL Lite
16:20:32 [DanC]
Proposal by Ian
16:20:32 [DanC]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Apr/0191.html
16:21:21 [DanC]
IanH: last call comment asked why owl:Nothing isn't in owl lite; since we don't have a good reason why not, we looked at adding it...
16:21:40 [DanC]
changes in Moving owl:Nothing from DL to Lite Ian Horrocks (Mon, Apr 28 2003) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Apr/0184.html
16:22:02 [ChrisW]
zakim, [IBM] is temporarily ChrisW
16:22:02 [Zakim]
+ChrisW; got it
16:23:31 [ChrisW]
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16:24:12 [DanC]
straw poll shows noone against.
16:24:29 [DanC]
editors ready? Deb: yes.
16:24:31 [DanC]
noop for Guide
16:24:46 [DanC]
MikeD: yes, easy.
16:25:14 [DanC]
Ian:I'll get it done for S&AS
16:25:17 [DanC]
noop for requirements
16:25:29 [DanC]
JimH: er... test?
16:25:47 [GuusS]
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16:25:57 [DanC]
changes to tests from IanH http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Apr/0186.html
16:26:10 [Zakim]
+??P29
16:26:21 [Zakim]
+PatH
16:26:22 [jhendler]
zakim, ??p29 is Guus
16:26:22 [Zakim]
+Guus; got it
16:27:18 [DanC]
PROPOSED: to add owl:Nothing to owl lite
16:27:26 [DanC]
RESOLVED, Hayes abstaining
16:27:50 [Zakim]
+JonathanB
16:28:01 [DanC]
ACTION Dean/ref, Horrocks/semantics, Deb/overview, Connolly/guide
16:28:03 [jhendler]
zakim, who is here
16:28:03 [Zakim]
jhendler, you need to end that query with '?'
16:28:07 [jhendler]
zakim, who is here?
16:28:07 [Zakim]
On the phone I see DanC, Ian_Horrocks, Mike_Dean, Hori, JimH, Evan_Wallace, JeffH, Tim_Finin, Deb_Mcguinness, ChrisW, [EDS], charlesW, Guus, PatH, JonathanB
16:28:10 [Zakim]
On IRC I see GuusS, ChrisW, DeborahMc, JosD, mdean, IanH, jhendler, RRSAgent, logger, Zakim, DanC
16:28:29 [DanC]
--- 3.2 qualified cardinality restrictions
16:29:09 [DanC]
oops... yes, Connolly/test
16:29:40 [DanC]
JimH: [summary, see agenda]
16:29:52 [DanC]
JimH: doesn't look like something we can do without another last call.
16:30:06 [DanC]
... and in DAML it looks like there's not a lot of implementation experience
16:30:23 [DanC]
IanH: oiled fully supports it
16:30:35 [DanC]
... which is, in a way, how we got here...
16:31:25 [DanC]
JimH: does that mean fact supports it? IanH: yes. JimH: ah.
16:32:14 [DanC]
JonB: I wonder if some parts of the community already thinks this is part of OWL
16:33:05 [GuusS]
q+
16:33:33 [DanC]
DanC: example? "a baseball team has 9 players"?
16:33:43 [DanC]
that's not it...
16:33:54 [DanC]
"a baseball team has 9 players, 3 of whom are outfielders"
16:35:33 [DanC]
IanH: it's an expressivity change, because of [... details missed...]
16:37:15 [DanC]
DanC: we could talk about proposals to add it; I haven't seen a "soup to nuts" proposal yet
16:37:32 [DanC]
JimH: proposals in email so far are not just "do what DAML did"
16:37:44 [DanC]
JonB: these *Q things have never been quite clear to me.
16:37:47 [Zakim]
+??P0
16:38:20 [jjc]
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16:39:04 [DanC]
IanH: recent syntax proposals might make it easier to do...
16:39:32 [DanC]
JimH: we could reopen [this issue] and postpone it...
16:39:54 [DanC]
... and work on proposals after this version
16:40:56 [DanC]
PatH: keep in mind that if it's not in this version, it won't go out for a long time
16:41:24 [jjc]
q+
16:41:44 [DanC]
ack danc
16:43:36 [DanC]
Guus: it does seem important, but it didn't come up in lots of DAML apps, so perhaps not that important. Note we didn't do stuff like defaults, which are also important...
16:43:56 [DanC]
... and note that someValuesFrom can help [?]
16:44:37 [DanC]
... personally, I'd like to see it in, but I see more reasons not to.
16:45:28 [DanC]
Jeremy: I'm sorta the other way around: I personally am still comfortable leaving it out, but the arguments against putting it in aren't compelling to me.
16:46:21 [DanC]
... what's going to slow us down is reasoning with individuals. [??] I expect a non-trivial CR while the community learns to deal with it.
16:48:42 [DanC]
DanC: I don't like the idea of sorta tacking it on after, though I admit that's possible. Let's decide to put it in or not...
16:50:10 [DanC]
... I think the case that they're needed is well made, but I'll need to see text for the guide and implemented tests before I agree.
16:50:20 [DanC]
ack Guus
16:50:22 [DanC]
ack jjc
16:53:19 [DanC]
ack danc
16:53:31 [DanC]
DanC: let's reopen the issue, in any case
16:53:41 [DanC]
JimH/Guus: we did that.
16:53:46 [jjc]
q+
16:54:17 [DanC]
DanC: how many want to postpone? could we strawpoll?
16:54:26 [GuusS]
q+
16:54:45 [DanC]
Chris: I'm prepared to do the guide; how many implementors are there? can we just ask them?
16:55:07 [DanC]
JimH: how many OK to postpone?
16:55:17 [DanC]
yes: several
16:55:32 [DanC]
no: several
16:56:48 [DanC]
JimH: FYI, I phoned Alan R (the commentor) about the time cost...
16:57:17 [jjc]
q+
16:57:23 [DanC]
... he'd probably consider postponing (with acknowledgement that this is important) acceptable
16:59:27 [DanC]
[... discussion of post-WG stuff... building user community, demand for new features...]
17:00:37 [DanC]
ack jjc
17:00:40 [DanC]
ack guus
17:01:31 [DanC]
GuusS: regarding the medical community, protoge supports the medical community without QCRs, and would not like to add it
17:01:50 [DanC]
JimH: ... appleon toolkit... no QCRs...
17:02:28 [DanC]
PatH: have they decided *not* to have this?
17:02:42 [DanC]
DebM: yes; I went to a recent meeting.
17:02:46 [chas]
chas has joined #webont
17:03:14 [DanC]
ack DanC
17:03:14 [Zakim]
DanC, you wanted to suggest taking up Welty's offer to write guide text and perhaps his "ask the implementors" suggestion
17:04:09 [DanC]
ACTION JJC propose RDF/XML syntax
17:04:13 [DanC]
done. [pointer pending]
17:04:34 [DanC]
ACTION PatH propose RDF/XML syntax. (withdrawn?)
17:06:56 [DanC]
ACTION GuusS: write proposal to add QCRs to OWL, including text for the guide.
17:07:54 [DanC]
ACTION JimH: notify the SemWeb CG that Richter's comment has introduced a schedule risk
17:09:05 [DanC]
Path: which costs more
17:09:17 [DanC]
Path: which costs more, more tokens in the namespace or more complex triple syntax?
17:09:26 [GuusS]
q+
17:09:26 [DanC]
DanC: what costs is changing the meaning of existing documents.
17:10:44 [DanC]
[... technical discussion, discussion of impact on NCI ontology... folks that want this recorded in detail will please send mail...]
17:12:07 [DanC]
ack Guus
17:12:26 [DanC]
GuusS: so keep the existing thing, but add something more general too... is that the way to go?
17:12:33 [DanC]
[... some support...]
17:14:03 [DanC]
IanH: in 0176, I gave a pretty detailed proposal...
17:14:19 [IanH]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Apr/0176.html
17:14:30 [DanC]
Qualified Cardinality Restrictions
17:14:31 [DanC]
From: Ian Horrocks (horrocks@cs.man.ac.uk)
17:14:31 [DanC]
Date: Mon, Apr 28 2003
17:17:41 [DanC]
-- 4. Presentation Syntax Documents (5-10 min)
17:18:13 [DanC]
# Update: XML Presentation Syntax [draft for W3C Note] Masahiro Hori (Thu, Mar 27 2003) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Mar/0241.html
17:19:32 [DanC]
Guus: propose to publish
17:20:06 [DanC]
... with SOTD that says "updates expected"
17:20:45 [DanC]
PROPOSED: to publish the 27Mar version
17:20:58 [DanC]
so RESOLVED, Connolly abstaining
17:21:04 [DanC]
Hayes abstaining
17:22:41 [jjc]
point-of-order two questions about Test (having reviewed IRC)
17:24:02 [DanC]
ACTION Masahiro: deliver pubrules-happy draft
17:24:09 [DanC]
ACTION Connolly: publish XML syntax
17:24:16 [DanC]
---- test
17:24:25 [DanC]
jjc: pls unapprove cardinality/005
17:24:55 [DanC]
so RESOLVED.
17:25:30 [DanC]
withdrawn: Guus to prepare note to RDF regarding PFPS08 and its relation
17:25:30 [DanC]
to the above resolution.
17:25:56 [DanC]
ACTION DanC: try to develop test cases that clarify this XML literals
17:25:56 [DanC]
stuff for WebOnt and RDFCore
17:26:04 [DanC]
CONTINUED, with apologies.
17:27:01 [DanC]
--- 5. RDF response (0-5 min)
17:27:19 [jjc]
DanC: on datatypes:
17:27:44 [jhendler]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003May/0005.html
17:27:53 [jjc]
we took a decision but that decision only integer and string are guaranteed
17:29:29 [Zakim]
-JonathanB
17:29:46 [ChrisW]
ChrisW has joined #webont
17:30:03 [ChrisW]
Bye!
17:30:08 [Zakim]
-ChrisW
17:30:16 [DanC]
ACTON DanC: get review of datatypes decision by I18N WG CONTINUES.
17:30:32 [jjc]
ACTION: jjc change SHOULD to MUST for xsd:itneger and xsd:string
17:30:53 [jhendler]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003May/0008.html
17:31:59 [DanC]
on rdf:about="" and xml:base and all that
17:32:02 [DanC]
pls discuss in email
17:32:07 [Zakim]
-Evan_Wallace
17:32:11 [Zakim]
-[EDS]
17:32:12 [Zakim]
-Ian_Horrocks
17:32:13 [Zakim]
-Tim_Finin
17:32:14 [Zakim]
-PatH
17:32:16 [Zakim]
-Mike_Dean
17:32:16 [DanC]
ADJOURN.
17:32:17 [Zakim]
-JeremyC
17:32:19 [Zakim]
-JeffH
17:32:20 [Zakim]
-Hori
17:32:22 [Zakim]
-charlesW
17:32:40 [Zakim]
-JimH
17:32:41 [Zakim]
-DanC
17:32:42 [Zakim]
-Guus
17:32:44 [Zakim]
-Deb_Mcguinness
17:32:45 [Zakim]
SW_WebOnt()12:00PM has ended
17:47:02 [DanC]
RRSAgent, pointer?
17:47:03 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2003/05/01-webont-irc#T17-47-02
17:47:08 [DanC]
RRSAgent, bye
17:47:08 [RRSAgent]
I see 10 open action items:
17:47:08 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Patel-Schneider to work on proof for issue 5.26 B1,B2 [1]
17:47:08 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/05/01-webont-irc#T16-10-49
17:47:08 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: IanH report on running Lite tests (less datatypes) thru some implementation, e.g. racer [2]
17:47:08 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/05/01-webont-irc#T16-11-50
17:47:08 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JJC to point the commentor at 4.x in the test doc and see if that satisfies the comment on reference. [3]
17:47:08 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/05/01-webont-irc#T16-12-26
17:47:08 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Guus to keep the commentor up to date on discussion of Nothing in Lite [4]
17:47:08 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/05/01-webont-irc#T16-12-46
17:47:08 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: GuusS to write proposal to add QCRs to OWL, including text for the guide. [5]
17:47:08 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/05/01-webont-irc#T17-06-56
17:47:08 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JimH to notify the SemWeb CG that Richter's comment has introduced a schedule risk [6]
17:47:08 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/05/01-webont-irc#T17-07-54
17:47:08 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Masahiro to deliver pubrules-happy draft [7]
17:47:08 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/05/01-webont-irc#T17-24-02
17:47:08 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Connolly to publish XML syntax [8]
17:47:08 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/05/01-webont-irc#T17-24-09
17:47:08 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: DanC to try to develop test cases that clarify this XML literals [9]
17:47:08 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/05/01-webont-irc#T17-25-56
17:47:08 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jjc change SHOULD to MUST for xsd:itneger and xsd:string [10]
17:47:09 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/05/01-webont-irc#T17-30-32