IRC log of webont on 2003-04-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:45:58 [RRSAgent]
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15:18:53 [DanC]
Zakim, this will be WEBO
15:18:53 [Zakim]
ok, DanC; I see SW_WebOnt()12:00PM scheduled to start in 42 minutes
15:34:22 [DanC]
agenda + 24Apr
15:34:34 [DanC]
DanC has changed the topic to: 24 Apr telcon
15:34:45 [DanC]
RRSAgent, pointer?
15:34:45 [RRSAgent]
15:49:32 [GuusS]
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15:56:17 [Zakim]
SW_WebOnt()12:00PM has now started
15:56:24 [Zakim]
15:56:40 [GuusS]
zakim, ??P2 is Guus
15:56:40 [Zakim]
+Guus; got it
15:57:12 [Zakim]
15:57:18 [Zakim]
15:57:45 [GuusS]
zakim, ??P3 is Jerome
15:57:45 [Zakim]
+Jerome; got it
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15:58:45 [Zakim]
15:59:03 [pfps]
pfps has joined #webont
16:00:01 [Zakim]
16:00:31 [pfps]
zakim, ??p8 is pfps
16:00:31 [Zakim]
+pfps; got it
16:01:18 [Zakim]
16:01:37 [Zakim]
16:01:39 [Zakim]
16:01:59 [GuusS]
zakim, Tim_Finin is Jeff
16:01:59 [Zakim]
+Jeff; got it
16:02:09 [Zakim]
16:02:15 [DanC]
zakim, Tim_Finin is really JeffH
16:02:15 [Zakim]
sorry, DanC, I do not recognize a party named 'Tim_Finin'
16:02:20 [Zakim]
16:02:34 [DanC]
Zakim, ??P15 is YassirA
16:02:34 [Zakim]
+YassirA; got it
16:02:35 [Zakim]
16:02:36 [Zakim]
16:02:41 [IanH]
IanH has joined #webont
16:02:43 [GuusS]
zakim, ??
16:02:43 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, GuusS.
16:02:58 [jjc]
jjc has joined #webont
16:03:11 [jjc]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:03:11 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Guus, DanC, Jerome, [EDS], pfps, Jeff, ??P12, Ian_Horrocks, YassirA, Marwan_Sabbouh, ??P18 (muted)
16:03:24 [jjc]
Zakim, ??P18 is jjc
16:03:24 [Zakim]
+jjc; got it
16:03:38 [jjc]
I was muted
16:03:43 [Zakim]
16:03:59 [GuusS]
zakim, ??P12 is Hwrman
16:03:59 [Zakim]
+Hwrman; got it
16:04:03 [Zakim]
16:04:18 [GuusS]
zakim, ??p18 is Jeremy
16:04:18 [Zakim]
sorry, GuusS, I do not recognize a party named '??p18'
16:04:45 [GuusS]
zakim, ??p12 is Herman
16:04:45 [Zakim]
sorry, GuusS, I do not recognize a party named '??p12'
16:04:50 [Zakim]
16:05:24 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:05:24 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Guus, DanC, Jerome, [EDS], pfps, Jeff, Hwrman, Ian_Horrocks, YassirA, Marwan_Sabbouh, jjc (muted), Mike_Dean, ??P19, ??P26
16:05:25 [GuusS]
zakim, ??p26 is TimF
16:05:26 [Zakim]
+TimF; got it
16:05:34 [DanC]
Zakim, pick a scribe
16:05:34 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose DanC
16:05:36 [timfinin]
timfinin has joined #webont
16:06:51 [DanC]
Zakim, ??P19 is CharlesW
16:06:51 [Zakim]
+CharlesW; got it
16:06:57 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:06:57 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Guus, DanC, Jerome, [EDS], pfps, Jeff, Hwrman, Ian_Horrocks, YassirA, Marwan_Sabbouh, jjc (muted), Mike_Dean, CharlesW, TimF
16:07:14 [DanC]
Zakim, agenda?
16:07:14 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
16:07:15 [Zakim]
1. 24Apr [from DanC]
16:07:25 [DanC]
regrets: McGuinness, Stanton
16:07:34 [DanC]
Regrets: Hendler, Wallace (probable)
16:07:36 [Zakim]
16:07:49 [DanC]
(other regrets in the www-webont-wg archive)
16:07:58 [DanC]
Zakim, ??P31 is LeoO
16:07:58 [Zakim]
+LeoO; got it
16:08:18 [DanC]
RESOLVED to accept as a true record of the April 10,2003 telcon:
16:08:18 [DanC]
16:08:26 [DanC]
--- 1.3 Agenda amendments
16:08:47 [DanC]
Guus: rdf:List, from Jeremy. under 5. RDF response (5-10 min)
16:09:07 [DanC]
Guus: also QA review. under AOB
16:09:21 [DanC]
-- 1.4 Telecon schedule
16:09:43 [jjc]
i expect to be on holiday next week
16:09:50 [DanC]
next meeting: 1May, per regular schedule
16:09:55 [DanC]
Zakim, pick a scribe
16:09:55 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Jeff
16:10:00 [DanC]
Zakim, pick a scribe
16:10:00 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose pfps
16:10:12 [DanC]
Zakim, pick a scribe
16:10:12 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose pfps
16:10:25 [DanC]
Zakim, pick a scribe
16:10:25 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Hwrman
16:10:41 [DanC]
Patel-Schneider to scribe 1MAy
16:10:48 [DanC]
--- 1.5 ACTION Item Review
16:10:54 [DanC]
ACTION: DanC request review by internationalisation board of decision
16:10:55 [DanC]
on datatypes.
16:12:00 [DanC]
continued, with apologies for the delay.
16:12:52 [DanC]
ACTION: Patel-Schneider to work on proof for issue 5.26 B1,B2
16:12:52 [DanC]
(target completion date: not before May 1)
16:12:59 [DanC]
16:13:34 [DanC]
PFPS: stuff brought up by jeremy make it more difficult.
16:13:42 [DanC]
ACTION Hendler Ask for some pre-LC comments to be resent.
16:13:49 [DanC]
continues, though progress has been made
16:13:56 [DanC]
DONE: Jeff Heflin to add reference section to requirements document
16:14:03 [DanC]
DONE: Heflin Add second line to editors draft pointing at LC.
16:14:11 [DanC]
DONE: Heflin Change firstname/lastname to e-mail.
16:14:19 [DanC]
DONE: Heflin Add change log appendix to editors draft.
16:14:23 [DanC]
16:14:29 [DanC]
DONE: McGuinness Add second line to editors draft pointing at LC.
16:14:35 [DanC]
DONE: McGuiness Add change log appendix to editors draft.
16:14:43 [DanC]
DONE: Dean Add second line to editors draft pointing at LC.
16:14:49 [DanC]
DONE: Dean Add change log appendix to editors draft.
16:14:58 [DanC]
--- 2. Test document (10-15 min)
16:15:08 [DanC]
Jeremy to send email to WG identifying where he could use help
16:15:08 [DanC]
and a proposed schedule.
16:15:08 [DanC]
16:15:08 [DanC]
16:15:27 [Jerome]
16:15:49 [DanC]
JJC: two must dos remaining: 1 [?help?], 2: reflect datatypes decision
16:15:59 [DanC]
JJC: I'm not available to work on test next week. on holiday tomorrow.
16:16:09 [Jerome]
16:16:13 [DanC]
JJC: not likely to have a Last Call candidate by 1May
16:17:29 [DanC]
JJC: I did the compound document split just now. [yeah! -- DanC]
16:18:34 [DanC]
[... missed some; not sure how important it was...]
16:18:50 [DanC]
JJC: some new tests based on input from Sean [... technical details missed...]
16:21:09 [DanC]
DanC: I'm not seeing as much implementor feedback as I expected when I started planning to skip CR. I expect we'll need a 6 month CR now.
16:21:14 [Zakim]
16:22:36 [DanC]
IanH: we'll run all the tests we can, but won't be able to run all the list tests... dunno about datatypes.
16:23:06 [DanC]
ACTION IanH: report on running Lite tests (less datatypes) thru some implementation, e.g. racer
16:23:57 [DanC]
IanH: the hardest part of doing the tests is parsing
16:25:09 [DanC]
JJC: yes... I have some code to do that... IanH: so do we (Sean)... but it's a significant overhead... JJC: yes.
16:26:00 [DanC]
ACTION Guus: poll Bijan, Protoje, and [karlsurle?] to get test feedback
16:26:06 [DanC]
IanH: hmm... JTP folks?
16:26:27 [Zakim]
16:26:43 [DanC]
Zakim, ??P16 is JonathanB
16:26:43 [Zakim]
+JonathanB; got it
16:27:29 [DanC]
JJC: [... on state of HP's implementation work; maybe jjc will elaborate in email?]
16:27:53 [DanC]
IanH: JJC, if you could get your parser to convert to the dig syntax [?], you'd get 2 reasoners for free. Racer and [?]
16:29:09 [Zakim]
16:29:33 [DanC]
Zakim, who's talking?
16:29:46 [Zakim]
DanC, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (28%), JonathanB (5%), jjc (51%)
16:30:17 [DanC]
Guus: so 8May is a target for test document
16:30:26 [DanC]
== 3. LC Comments (20-30 min)
16:31:05 [DanC]
- add owl:Nothing to OWL Lite
16:31:05 [DanC]
- where is the precise syntax of OWL?
16:31:28 [DanC]
Guus collects advice on whether to open issues here
16:32:43 [DanC]
IanH: recalling from history, not having Nothing in owl Lite seemed "simpler" by measure of less tokens.
16:33:21 [jjc]
external comment is new evidence
16:33:41 [jjc]
16:33:56 [DanC]
JonB: reasons for putting it in?
16:34:18 [DanC]
IanH: it's useful and it's low cost to add.
16:34:40 [DanC]
ack jjc
16:34:51 [jjc]
16:35:48 [DanC]
Guus: issue re-opened, with Ian as owner.
16:36:01 [DanC]
(we'll get the number presently)
16:36:53 [DanC]
... discussion postponed until a proposal is available
16:36:58 [DanC]
- where is the precise syntax of OWL?
16:38:23 [Zakim]
16:42:12 [DanC]
DanC suggests answers the question
16:42:23 [Zakim]
16:45:57 [DanC]
ACTION JJC: point the commentor at 4.x in the test doc and see if that satisfies the comment on reference.
16:46:04 [DanC]
apr msg 0024
16:46:48 [DanC]
ACTION Guus: keep the commentor up to date on discussion of Nothing in Lite
16:48:28 [jjc]
16:48:50 [DanC]
Guus: appendix B of reference... (Normative)... shouldn't be there.
16:48:55 [DanC]
16:49:35 [DanC]
Guus: I'll fix.
16:49:51 [DanC]
--- 3.1 qualified cardinlity restrictions
16:50:04 [DanC]
Guus: issue has been re-opened
16:50:40 [DanC]
DanC: can we straw poll?
16:50:47 [jjc]
Zakim, unmute jjc
16:50:47 [Zakim]
jjc was not muted, jjc
16:50:55 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone
16:50:55 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who's on the phone', DanC
16:50:59 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:50:59 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Guus, DanC, Jerome, [EDS], pfps, Jeff, Hwrman, Ian_Horrocks, YassirA, Marwan_Sabbouh, jjc, CharlesW, TimF, LeoO, JonathanB, PatH
16:51:56 [DanC]
16:52:21 [jjc]
q+ to argue against
16:52:25 [DanC]
straw poll shows lots in favor to put it in, a few against, and a few abstain
16:53:28 [DanC]
IanH: the feature was in DAML+OIL; it doesn't cost a lot; it was removed due to "feature count" and lack of understanding and uses cases at the time...
16:53:43 [DanC]
... since then the use cases and understanding have become more clear
16:54:21 [DanC]
... I've seen implementation experience
16:54:38 [DanC]
PatH: adding it makes explaining things easier
16:56:15 [DanC]
jjc: I'm not satisfied with the implementation experience I've seen.
16:56:47 [GuusS]
ack jjc
16:56:47 [Zakim]
jjc, you wanted to argue against
16:56:56 [GuusS]
ack jjc
16:59:35 [DanC]
DanC: I think the commentor's case is well made, but I'll need to see text for the guide and test cases that are implemented before I'll agree.
17:00:28 [DanC]
Mike: once the syntax is worked out, it shouldn't be hard to explain
17:00:49 [DanC]
Guus: I find the commentor's use cases compelling and relevant.
17:01:07 [DanC]
Yassir: yes, the modelling capability here is important.
17:01:40 [DanC]
JJC: re syntax... rather than hasCardinalityQ, we could have QualifiedRestriction as a class, so that the current owl:Restriction remains unchanged...
17:01:55 [DanC]
[details in a recent message, I gather]
17:03:33 [DanC]
IanH: how about using a class all the time, and having folks use owl:Thing for the unqualified case
17:05:39 [DanC]
PatH: "don't put more than four spices in a recipe"
17:06:06 [DanC]
IanH: "at least 2 courses of type primo piasto"
17:07:31 [DanC]
JJC: I could get constraints on banquets
17:10:28 [DanC]
ACTION JJC: propose syntax
17:10:55 [DanC]
ACTION 7 = JJC: propose RDF/XML syntax
17:12:22 [timfinin]
I've got to leave a bit early. bye.
17:12:25 [timfinin]
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17:12:31 [Zakim]
17:12:52 [DanC]
ACTION PatH: propose RDF/XML syntax
17:13:17 [Zakim]
17:13:59 [DanC]
ACTION JJC: get real data about the complexity of italian banquet
17:14:09 [DanC]
MikeS: should be easy to do a guide section based on that
17:14:26 [DanC]
== 4. Pesentation Syntax Documents (0-5 min)
17:14:43 [DanC]
postponed due to Masahiro's absence
17:15:09 [DanC]
== 5. RDF response (5-10 min)
17:16:32 [DanC]
I'm lost. msg is somehow relevant.
17:18:08 [DanC]
[... discussion of several issues in RDF Core ...]
17:30:33 [DanC]
PROPOSED: endorse pfps-08
17:31:48 [DanC]
ACTION DanC: try to develop test cases that clarify this XML literals stuff for WebOnt and RDFCore
17:33:00 [DanC]
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SW_WebOnt()12:00PM has ended