12:29:11 RRSAgent has joined #tp 12:29:28 2003-03-05 Technical Plenary 12:29:30 -> http://www.w3.org/2003/03/TechPlenAgenda.html agenda 13:10:49 geoff_a has joined #tp 13:16:45 Norm has joined #tp 13:20:13 ht has joined #tp 13:20:28 This channel for logging TP sessions? 13:22:59 Norm has joined #tp 13:23:29 marie has joined #tp 13:27:57 Ian has joined #tp 13:28:45 Ian has changed the topic to: Tech Plenary http://www.w3.org/2003/03/TechPlenAgenda 13:28:47 marie has joined #tp 13:28:57 yes this is the channel 13:29:02 Marsh has joined #tp 13:29:26 Bert-lap has joined #tp 13:29:35 mc, ht and ij are this morning scribers 13:29:40 Steven has joined #tp 13:29:44 s/mc/mcf 13:29:52 mimasa has joined #tp 13:31:31 ps has joined #tp 13:32:15 mdubinko has joined #tp 13:32:33 ----- 13:32:36 zrendon has joined #tp 13:32:55 Session 1: Welcome! by Steve Bratt 13:33:09 zrendon has left #tp 13:33:22 slides at: http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/0305-sb-techplenintro/Overview.html 13:33:45 zrendon has joined #tp 13:34:04 zarella, did you get your web access problem sorted? 13:34:59 Yes, thanks. 13:35:10 amy has joined #tp 13:35:18 hugo has joined #tp 13:35:29 gerald has joined #tp 13:36:00 Gudge has joined #tp 13:36:03 Slide 3 13:36:04 PGrosso has joined #tp 13:36:06 jeffsch has joined #tp 13:36:29 luu has joined #tp 13:36:33 sb: I encourage you to sign at today's BOF tables 13:36:40 Don has joined #tp 13:36:44 janet has joined #tp 13:37:08 sb: town session at the end of the day, ian jacobs will moderate it 13:37:38 ...please prepare your questions and write them down on pieces of paper... 13:37:41 carol has joined #tp 13:38:00 I am happy to collect them all day long 13:38:20 ... but, Why Are We Here?: http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/0305-sb-techplenintro/slide4-0.html 13:39:52 W3C's Mission: http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/0305-sb-techplenintro/slide5-0.html 13:39:56 dino has joined #tp 13:40:06 ddahl has joined #TP 13:40:20 shayman has joined #tp 13:40:33 caribou has joined #tp 13:41:42 SueL has joined #tp 13:41:56 Engineering the Web's Foundational Technologies: http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/0305-sb-techplenintro/slide6-0.html 13:42:33 olivier has joined #tp 13:43:14 emmanuel has joined #tp 13:43:17 Work Organization: http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/0305-sb-techplenintro/slide7-0.html 13:44:01 sb: the org chart, done by ivan herman, is at http://www.w3.org/2003/02/W3COrg.svgz 13:44:16 slh has joined #tp 13:44:26 sb: we started 8 new activities from last year 13:44:49 Coordination: http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/0305-sb-techplenintro/slide8-0.html 13:45:12 sb: essential in W3C = the coordination between WGs 13:45:51 em-lap has joined #tp 13:47:26 Tools for Coordination: http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/0305-sb-techplenintro/slide9-0.html 13:47:30 steph-tp has joined #tp 13:48:13 sb displays the org chart showing dependencies among WGs 13:48:15 MSM has joined #tp 13:49:02 Yves has joined #tp 13:49:13 simonMIT has joined #tp 13:50:00 sb: we didn't show dependencies from the QA groups, for ex., since they influence all WGs 13:50:08 DanC has joined #tp 13:50:18 scatter chart... oooh... ahh... 13:50:55 asir has joined #tp 13:51:19 Technical Plenary Week Participation 13:51:28 : http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/0305-sb-techplenintro/slide10-0.html 13:52:00 sandro has joined #tp 13:52:01 sb: record in participation + 30 different groups meeting this week 13:52:18 Recommendations, Completed and En Route: http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/0305-sb-techplenintro/slide11-0.html 13:52:55 MJDuerst has joined #tp 13:53:45 sb shows the REC timeline http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Offices/Presentations/Overview/svgs/recsslide.svg 13:54:01 chaalsBOS has joined #tp 13:54:03 Tools for Reaching REC Faster: http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/0305-sb-techplenintro/slide12-0.html 13:54:38 sb: most important way to reach REC fast is to reach consensus 13:55:19 Tantek has joined #tp 13:55:38 sb: we will present very helpful tools such as the voting system, set up by Dominique Hazael-Massieux 13:55:41 frankmcca has joined #tp 13:55:53 Future Work: http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/0305-sb-techplenintro/slide13-0.html 13:57:17 Tech Plenary Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/0305-sb-techplenintro/slide14-0.html 13:57:20 tvraman has joined #tp 13:57:34 Sniffing ether in a meeting is good for ones wakefulness 13:57:38 sb presents today's agenda 13:58:12 frankmcca has joined #tp 13:58:28 agenda at http://www.w3.org/2003/03/TechPlenAgenda.html 13:58:39 Don has joined #tp 13:58:52 --- Questions? 13:59:04 ------ 13:59:17 http://www.w3.org/2003/03/tp-mmi-panel-intro.html 13:59:21 Session 2: What Does Anywhere, Anytime, Anyone, Any Device Access to the Web Really Mean? 13:59:26 Dave Raggett in the chair 14:00:04 welcome, introduction of panelists 14:00:07 KevinLiu has joined #tp 14:00:26 dr promises demo! 14:02:05 Second slide 14:02:41 (All slides are at same URL) 14:02:52 jeffm has joined #tp 14:04:45 Third slide 14:07:47 MarkJ has joined #TP 14:07:59 ht has joined #tp 14:08:04 scribe rejoins 14:08:23 Call again for URL for these slides, anyone? 14:08:40 it's at http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/03-tp-di-1/ 14:09:01 slide 3 14:09:02 timbl has joined #tp 14:09:20 yasuyuki has joined #tp 14:09:21 dom has joined #tp 14:09:26 slh has joined #tp 14:09:34 http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/03-tp-di-1/slide3-0.html 14:09:36 steve has joined #tp 14:09:51 Alan-Lap has joined #tp 14:09:53 http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/03-tp-di-1/slide4-0.html 14:10:19 http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/03-tp-di-1/slide5-0.html 14:10:27 Steven has joined #tp 14:10:58 http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/03-tp-di-1/slide6-0.html 14:11:22 Steven has joined #tp 14:11:36 bwm has joined #tp 14:11:45 rg hands over to Jim Larson 14:12:07 jl plays at calling on a cell phone 14:12:13 and getting a voicemail system 14:12:25 "Any time, any where, without being placed on hold" 14:12:26 we should have a hack that results in the slides in a browser flipping when the scribe says next slide on the irc channel 14:12:54 http://www.w3.org/2003/03/VoiceBrowserWG.pdf 14:13:52 second slide (all in same PDF doc't) 14:13:57 third slide 14:14:18 fourth slide 14:15:07 Karl-lap has joined #tp 14:15:16 fifth slide 14:15:20 maxf has joined #tp 14:15:28 hmm... which is that semantic mapping spec? 14:15:35 sixth slide 14:15:47 jl hands over to Deborah Dahl 14:15:51 JosD has joined #tp 14:15:58 http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/03-bostontp-dahl/ 14:17:57 ht has joined #tp 14:18:26 http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/03-bostontp-dahl/slide2-0.html 14:19:37 Steven has joined #tp 14:19:47 http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/03-bostontp-dahl/slide3-0.html 14:20:20 Alan-Lap has joined #tp 14:20:22 [speaker has net problems too] 14:20:35 Activities: Multimodal interaction framework 14:20:49 interaction management 14:21:00 Ben has joined #tp 14:21:12 Extensible Multimodal annotation 14:21:34 Ink Markup -- representing pen input 14:22:07 dd hands over to Janina Sajka 14:22:18 slide URL, anyone? 14:23:02 WAI and multimodal 14:23:20 the URL is on screen: http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/0305-tp-sajka 14:24:01 slh has joined #tp 14:24:17 http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/0305-tp-sajka/slide1-0.html 14:24:47 http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/0305-tp-sajka/slide2-0.html 14:25:48 http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/0305-tp-sajka/slide3-0.html 14:27:06 http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/0305-tp-sajka/slide3-0.html 14:27:18 http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/0305-tp-sajka/slide4-0.html 14:27:55 http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/0305-tp-sajka/slide5-0.html 14:28:14 micah has joined #tp 14:29:07 Jonathan has joined #tp 14:29:40 dr introduces Roger Gimson again for Challenges section 14:29:51 SueL has joined #tp 14:30:37 KevinLiu has joined #tp 14:30:40 slide pointer???? 14:30:59 RAM has joined #tp 14:31:30 http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/03-tp-di-2/slide1-0.html 14:31:38 http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/03-tp-di-2/slide2-0.html 14:32:08 http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/03-tp-di-2/slide3-0.html 14:32:46 ddahl has joined #tp 14:33:04 judy has joined #tp 14:33:59 http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/03-tp-di-2/slide4-0.html 14:34:36 timbl__ has joined #tp 14:35:08 ygonno has joined #tp 14:35:18 marie has joined #tp 14:35:19 sg hands over to Scott McGlashan 14:35:21 http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/03-tp-mcglashan/ 14:35:36 http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/03-tp-mcglashan/slide1-0.html 14:36:09 shayman has joined #tp 14:37:38 mjd has joined #tp 14:37:39 bwm_ has joined #tp 14:37:50 JaNYC has joined #tp 14:38:57 http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/03-tp-mcglashan/slide2-0.html 14:39:30 http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/03-tp-mcglashan/slide3-0.html 14:39:33 Patrick_S has joined #tp 14:40:11 http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/03-tp-mcglashan/slide4-0.html 14:40:13 mdubinko has joined #tp 14:40:53 Karl-lap has joined #tp 14:41:01 Nobu has joined #tp 14:41:12 sg hands over to Deborah Dahl 14:41:13 http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/03-bostontpchallenges-dahl/slide1-0.html 14:41:21 bwm has joined #tp 14:42:10 mimasa has joined #tp 14:42:17 Are these presentations supposed to be member only? (e.g. URLs above have been mostly W3C member only) 14:42:26 http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/03-bostontpchallenges-dahl/slide2-0.html 14:42:34 Tantek: Public 14:43:49 yasuyuki has joined #tp 14:44:07 bwm has joined #tp 14:44:29 RAM_ has joined #tp 14:44:40 Ian: Not according to checklink: http://validator.w3.org/checklink?url=http://www.w3.org/2003/03/TechPlenAgenda.html 14:44:41 PStickler has joined #tp 14:45:05 MJDuerst has joined #tp 14:45:08 ht has joined #tp 14:45:17 ivan has joined #tp 14:45:21 JosD has joined #tp 14:45:25 dr hands over to Janina Sajka 14:45:27 RalphS has joined #tp 14:45:28 no slides 14:45:32 audio demo coming up 14:45:47 js points out that disability evolves 14:46:04 as people age, sight and hearing deteriorate 14:46:50 if we get this [multimodality] right, we should be able to smoothly adjust the balance of modality for an individual as their needs change 14:46:58 Liam has joined #tp 14:47:21 js how to break through the "the disability market is too small to drive development" 14:47:34 micah has joined #tp 14:47:56 ndw has joined #tp 14:48:00 marie has joined #tp 14:48:02 Don has joined #tp 14:48:09 http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/0305-tp-sajka/slide6-0.html 14:48:15 js limited vocab voice interaction is not far from providing for deaf/h-o-h users 14:48:23 AndyS has joined #tp 14:48:28 via translation to symbolic interaction 14:49:15 Alan-Lap has joined #tp 14:49:15 js final point on fluidity: when technology is immature (i.e. speech in/out), early adopters will be the ones who _have_ to have it, that is, the blind user community 14:49:36 so this isn't about disability, it's about being clever about using sound output 14:49:40 GudgeScrb has joined #tp 14:49:58 general population will need higher quality, but they'll be interested then too 14:50:18 js decides to postpone the demo in favour of questions 14:50:27 question time -- mikes in aisles 14:50:30 ----Q&A 14:50:38 Steven Pemberton 14:50:41 dr, please ask people to identify themselves 14:50:52 sp: isn't voice markup doing too much? 14:51:09 better to integrate _into_ other languages, instead of trying to be free standing 14:51:25 rgimson says yes, next generation will do that 14:51:42 s/rgimson/scott McGlashan/ 14:51:48 ivan has joined #tp 14:51:49 but for getting started doing a standalone solution was a good idea 14:51:54 Rotan Hanrahan 14:52:02 Mobileaware 14:52:12 Alan-Lap has left #tp 14:52:14 In the early days, content creation was easy 14:52:18 at the expense of access 14:52:22 Alan-2 has joined #tp 14:52:37 today we've got richer delivery, but creation is now much harder 14:52:39 comments? 14:52:51 Larson: yes, it's more complex 14:53:03 but it's possible, and the complexity enables more exciting content 14:53:11 I agree that ease of authoring is still very important. 14:53:25 authoring tools also are emerging which manange the complexity 14:53:32 we'll get good stuff, and also terrible stuff 14:53:55 Gerald Edgar, Boeing Corp. 14:54:05 sj endorses authoring tools need to take up the slack 14:54:06 tools are good to have, but don't underestimate impact and necessity of hand-coders. 14:54:36 ge: size had changes, bandwidth has changed, but what about a radical shift, e.g. our punch presses could be web clients 14:54:45 marja has joined #tp 14:54:47 what kind of non-standard UI does this require 14:54:57 JacekK has joined #tp 14:54:58 KevinLiu has joined #tp 14:55:08 RGimson: for such a machine, the key aspect is a common way of expressing interaction 14:55:40 DI WG has been looking at XForms to provide a foundation for d-i interaction 14:56:05 Tantek: Authoring will be still be possible. It doesn't make sense to compare the past with the future, in the sense that the people can continue to author HTML as before, and it's why it's wonderful. We just reached a point where we address a lot more techniques and languages. 14:56:07 rg: if filling in a field controls what the machine will do, separation of form from semantics is the key 14:56:38 rg: still more to do in the area of coping with the event aspects of this example 14:57:04 ??: not just the user interaction, but the machine tool is physically creating the output presentation 14:57:15 chaalsBOS has joined #tp 14:57:16 rg: yes, the output presentation is a bit of 3d stuff 14:57:30 Martin Duerst, W3C 14:57:32 rg: outputing to physical as opposed to electronic media is important to HP 14:57:44 md: different media have different challenges 14:58:13 md: remind everyone that a lot of different [natural] languages out there, with many people speaking only one of them 14:58:46 md: does progress in machine translation, perhaps not enough progress, point to an additional direction for your work 14:59:17 md: multiple documents for multiple modalities in multiple languages increases the need to be good on re-use on other dimensions 14:59:46 md: example -- voice interaction asks again if it gets the wrong answer, similar pblm for wrong language, maybe? 15:00:08 ndw has joined #tp 15:00:11 JLarson: we have to work towards using _one_ document for the different modalities, with different purposing 15:00:28 smcg: spoken language identification isn't up to it yet 15:00:49 multilingual recognition yes, 50 -- 60 languages available at some level 15:01:06 smcg: usual approach is generation from content on demand, to produce required language 15:01:29 jlarson: alternative, e.g. airline seat consoles, is non-linguistic interfaces 15:01:35 Pat Hayes 15:01:56 ph: Advantages of speech, are advantages of natural language in general 15:02:10 ph: if you're going to tackle NLU, that's a _very_ hard problem 15:02:33 dd: yes, speech and language have similar advantages 15:02:49 dd: in our groups, we're not trying to handle the full complexity of NLU 15:03:10 dd: focus on specifying the limited number of responses which are relevant, to constrain the recognition pblm 15:03:41 MJDuerst has joined #tp 15:03:43 jlarson: we cheat a lot, we do word recognition, we write clever dialogues to guide people where we want to go 15:04:15 smcg: we're doing better now because of a shift from rule-based to statistics-based approaches 15:04:38 moving up from the low-level SR to NLU, forcing interpretation on _any_ utterance 15:04:41 ivan has joined #tp 15:04:55 ph: yes, I'm aware, but the significance of a 'not' can easily be lost 15:05:02 Hakon Lie, Opera 15:05:02 dr: time to wind up 15:05:10 hl: thanks for good work 15:05:28 a furter relevant spec., "Media Queries", coming from CSS 15:05:49 allowing ss rules to be gated by result of queries to destination medium 15:05:54 http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-mediaqueries/ 15:06:07 TV Raman, IBM 15:06:13 raman rao 15:06:21 TV Raman 15:06:41 rr: back to question about authoring, yes, easy content creation is crucial 15:07:00 rr: HTML started simple, got complex, then simpler with CSS 15:07:28 rr: going forward with multimodality and speech, we need to look for the same separation 15:07:49 rr: content authoring separated from mm interface on top 15:07:59 Panel agrees 15:08:14 dr: separation is very much on VB WG's agenda 15:08:40 Ralph Swick: 3 MB bandwidth from here, if you stick to vanilla stuff 15:08:51 please stop doing peer-to-peer file sharing 15:09:01 or you risk getting cut off from net altogether 15:11:11 s/henri/henry/ 15:13:04 janet has joined #tp 15:13:21 Marsh has joined #tp 15:16:24 GudgeScrb has joined #tp 15:17:18 Gudge has joined #tp 15:17:37 mimasa has joined #tp 15:20:38 Ben has joined #tp 15:21:13 micah has joined #tp 15:22:09 amy has joined #tp 15:27:15 Norm has joined #tp 15:27:57 simonSNST has joined #tp 15:30:36 DonWright has joined #tp 15:32:29 DanC-AIM has joined #tp 15:33:07 Hi from WearableGizmo 15:33:33 zrendon has left #tp 15:33:42 ddahl has joined #tp 15:33:48 hi DanC-AIM 15:34:09 Arthur has joined #tp 15:34:48 MJDuerst has joined #tp 15:35:02 Zarella has joined #tp 15:35:14 dbooth has joined #tp 15:35:36 ---- Session 3: The Evolving Web Architecture 15:35:46 Panel: RF, TBL, PC, NW, DO, DC, CL, SW. Moderator Steve Zilles 15:35:51 maxf has joined #tp 15:36:06 RalphS has joined #tp 15:36:08 Hi. 15:36:29 SZ: Plan: Overview, Arch Doc, XML ID, XML Profiles, Namespace Docs 15:36:34 Wow... Look at all these people in the audience! Must bt 500 or so! 15:36:41 SZ: 10-15 mins of questions at the end. 15:37:09 [Only TAG person missing is Tim Bray] 15:37:14 Wonder if the record will include photos of the audience. 15:37:29 emmanuel has joined #tp 15:38:21 Jacek_K has joined #tp 15:38:27 Intro from SW: http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/2003-03-05-tagIntro/ 15:38:34 http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/2003-03-05-tagIntro/slide1-0.html 15:38:57 Liam has joined #tp 15:39:11 Lily has joined #tp 15:39:21 Steven has joined #tp 15:40:00 A: I just spoke with Luc, who's actually a heavy believer in declarative languages, and it's quite clear that RDF could help a lot to achieve inter-app interoperability here 15:40:05 What we are Chartered to Do? 15:40:11 http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/2003-03-05-tagIntro/slide2-0.html 15:40:44 How We Work? 15:40:48 http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/2003-03-05-tagIntro/slide3-0.html 15:40:49 yasuyuki has joined #tp 15:40:58 A: "" 15:41:10 RalphS has joined #tp 15:41:32 Gudge has joined #tp 15:42:16 mimasa has joined #tp 15:42:18 The things we produce 15:42:22 http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/2003-03-05-tagIntro/slide4-0.html 15:42:34 dougb has joined #tp 15:42:55 Hmm.. poll audience as to who subscribes to www-tag? 15:43:05 ht has joined #tp 15:43:09 steph-tp has joined #tp 15:43:09 Possible Misconceptions 15:43:11 ANd who reads it if subscribed :-) 15:43:15 http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/2003-03-05-tagIntro/slide5-0.html 15:44:11 jeffsch has joined #tp 15:44:35 plh-lap has joined #tp 15:44:36 TAG Communication 15:44:36 http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/2003-03-05-tagIntro/slide6-0.html 15:44:44 heh 15:44:51 GudgeScrb has joined #tp 15:45:05 Burnett has joined #tp 15:45:21 dadahl has joined #tp 15:45:34 maxf` has joined #tp 15:45:59 marie has joined #tp 15:46:05 Questions: http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/2003-03-05-tagIntro/slide7-0.html 15:46:19 * 15:46:19 How do we increase the participation of W3C members on www-tag? 15:46:19 * 15:46:19 How could the TAG improve its interaction with W3C WGs and/or public? 15:46:19 * 15:46:20 Is there a better way for the TAG to organize its work? 15:46:22 (other than issues, findings and WDs)? 15:46:45 tvraman has joined #tp 15:47:04 Architecture Document Overview 15:47:06 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2002/11ac-tag-tb/ 15:47:15 mimasa0 has joined #tp 15:47:33 slh has joined #tp 15:47:41 DC: These are Tim Bray slides; some updates since then 15:47:49 amy has joined #tp 15:47:50 DC: Editor's drafts since 15 Nov 2002 15:47:55 chaalsBOS has joined #tp 15:48:03 15 Nov 2002 draft 15:48:04 http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/ 15:48:08 JosD_ has joined #tp 15:48:08 Don has joined #tp 15:48:18 http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/ 15:48:24 Why Webarch? http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2002/11ac-tag-tb/slide2-0.html 15:49:06 DC: What are the principles that I'd like webmasters/developers to know? 15:49:27 dbooth has joined #tp 15:49:29 howcome has joined #tp 15:49:30 The Architectural Tripod http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2002/11ac-tag-tb/slide3-0.html 15:49:40 MJDuerst has joined #tp 15:49:43 mcglashan has joined #tp 15:49:47 DC: Identification/Representation/Machine interaction 15:50:04 RalphS has joined #tp 15:50:51 Christoph has joined #tp 15:51:17 Principles re: Universal Addressing http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2002/11ac-tag-tb/slide4-0.html 15:51:19 dougb62 has joined #tp 15:51:23 MarkJ has joined #TP 15:51:33 DC: Motification for using URIs: Network Effect 15:51:41 ndw has joined #tp 15:52:03 "The URI, the whole URI, and nothing but the URI!" 15:52:59 Principles re: Resource Representations http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2002/11ac-tag-tb/slide5-0.html 15:53:13 DC: Those present at this meeting are our primary audience; specs need to be consistent with these principles 15:53:52 Resource Representations (2) http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2002/11ac-tag-tb/slide6-0.html 15:54:45 bwm has joined #tp 15:55:08 hugo has joined #tp 15:55:27 Resource Representations (3) http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2002/11ac-tag-tb/slide7-0.html 15:55:44 Principles re: Interaction http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2002/11ac-tag-tb/slide8-0.html 15:56:19 DC: Not much writing in this section; looking at Roy Fielding's thesis, e.g. 15:56:47 DC polls crowd 15:57:00 1) Subscribers to www-tag? a fair number 15:57:08 2) How many have skimmed arch doc? a few 15:57:27 [Questions] 15:57:30 should have asked "who left www-tag because of s/n ratio?" maybe :) 15:57:47 Roger Cutler, Chevron 15:58:27 RC, with trepidation: (1) disingenuous that it's a misconception that the TAG is not telling WGs what to do. The TAG IS telling WGs what to do. 15:58:48 RC: (2) If you read the arch doc, it's a more reasoned doc than many people's interpretation. 15:58:58 RC: Like what some people do to the Bible. 15:59:30 DC: I think people share RC's concerns. I was nervous about the TAG initially. But W3C considered that it was better to try than not to try. 15:59:35 (this experiment) 16:00:06 SZ: The TAG was set up to do some things that individual WGs can't do on their own. 16:00:16 Chris has joined #tp 16:00:21 howcome has joined #tp 16:00:24 Tantek has joined #tp 16:00:25 SZ: The other piece of the TAG charter was to prepare Rec track docs. "AC accountability" 16:01:11 RC: In the WSA WG, someone expressed a strong opinion that a definition in the TAG's arch doc HAD to be used in the WSA document. 16:01:50 DO: This is about the definition of the term "agent." 16:01:51 Liam has joined #tp 16:02:21 DO: The WSA WG was working on a definition of the term "agent"; the definitions were unrelated to one another. In their first cut, the WSA WG took the TAG's dfn, changed it, and didn't reference the source. 16:02:24 Personally, I have very little interest in rehashing this "political" stuff. I want to have time to talk about XML profiles and xml:id. Can we shorten this current rehashing. 16:02:37 DO: I objected, stating that the WG should feed that info back to the TAG. 16:03:01 DO: Furthermore, I wanted a relationship such as "A Web Services agenda is a Web agent that..." 16:03:44 SZ: Would you consider the process to be working? 16:03:50 ora has joined #tp 16:03:57 DO: Yes, I think so. 16:04:25 timbl__ has joined #tp 16:04:30 Mike Champion (MC): What's the relationship between description and prescription in TAG activity? 16:04:50 MC: I see in the arch doc a lot of should's and must's. Not seeing the web as it is from the should's and must's. 16:05:09 dougb has joined #tp 16:05:15 MC: Where do you draw the line between stupid cruft that people do and Web principles? 16:05:17 ivan has joined #tp 16:05:43 CL: If people are doing something because they don't know better, we should improve outreach. If they do something because they have to, then we need to fix something. 16:05:52 DC: I would like to see more argument behind principle in the document. 16:06:24 CL: Also tension between brevity and rationale. 16:06:48 KevinLiu has joined #tp 16:07:01 Noah Mendelsohn: I like what's in the arch doc, but it's not what I expected. 16:07:31 NW: I see instead a number of subtle insights. But perhaps also because architecture bases lie elsewhere; don't want to repeat. 16:07:33 s/NW 16:07:37 s/NW/NM 16:07:50 NM: A specific example: "How much of the Web do you see to be REST-ful?" 16:08:27 JosD has joined #tp 16:08:28 NM: A good arch doc should give the big picture. 16:09:02 TBL: Several different views of what "architecture" means. The TAG does something different from other WGs (e.g., WSA WG). 16:09:15 TBL: Some people expect block diagram (with successive elaboration on request). 16:09:31 TBL: I don't think we can put 4 corners around the Web. 16:09:57 TBL: When people either extend the Web or bring something into the Web, what are the things they need to look out for? 16:10:07 TBL: E.g., you can write as many new formats as you wish, but please use URIs 16:11:01 NM: Then say what TBL said in the arch doc: Here's why you shouldn't look for a block diagram in this doc. 16:11:10 NM: Or change the title to something like "Principles for using the Web" 16:11:12 'observations on we architecture' 16:11:31 RF: A lot of what NM said is likely to be covered in as-yet-unwritten sections of the doc 16:12:39 DO: The TAG has been largely user-driven in their first year, responding to questions that have been raised. The Arch Doc is a resource where those findings can be pinned. 16:12:47 DO: In year 2 we expect to fill in other parts of the arch doc. 16:13:23 Ann Basseti, AB 16:13:26 Ann Bassetti (AB): I'm relieved that the TAG was created; these questions used to come to the AB! 16:13:36 (i.e., the Advisory Board) 16:14:10 AB: The Advisory Board's discussion is calmer now that Paul Cotton is on the TAG ;) 16:14:23 AB: I strongly encourage those in this room to subscribe to www-tag. 16:14:40 henri has joined #tp 16:14:59 [AB does her usual stellar job of reminding folks that "W3C is YOU!"] 16:15:21 Jonathan Robie (JR) 16:15:33 JR: The TAG is doing a good job. 16:15:38 more interesting than xml-dev ;-) 16:15:41 Data Direct Technologies 16:16:14 JR: I hear the TAG saying "There's a TAG finding; if it's broken; please tell us." 16:16:38 simonSNST has joined #tp 16:16:53 IJ: Roger Cutler's suggestions on when-to-use-get are likely to result in a new revision. 16:17:24 [Chris Lilley presentation] 16:17:30 XML ID for well formed documents 16:17:33 http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/2003-03-05-tagxmlid/ 16:17:53 CL: Here's the technical meat. 16:18:18 dougb62 has joined #tp 16:18:27 CL: How many people would agree with the statement "ID's arise as the result of validation?" 16:18:35 CL: Can they arise through other means? 16:18:39 Burnett_ has joined #tp 16:18:40 KevinLiu has joined #tp 16:18:40 CL points: 16:18:43 * The instance is well formed 16:18:43 * The instance is not valid(atable) 16:18:43 * The partnum attribute on foo is of type ID 16:18:45 mdean has joined #tp 16:19:16 Jonathan Marsh: We get into the infoset.... 16:19:31 DonWright has joined #tp 16:19:31 CL: Largely people assume that validation => fetching DTDs => IDs 16:19:34 Norm has joined #tp 16:19:44 Evidence of brokenness 16:19:47 http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/2003-03-05-tagxmlid/slide3-0.html 16:19:50 Roger has joined #tp 16:20:16 CL: In DOM 2, getElementByID 16:21:22 McGlashan has joined #tp 16:21:32 CL: CSS2, ID selectors 16:21:51 amy has joined #tp 16:22:01 CL: XHTML 1.0, user agent conformance: "# When a user agent processes an XHTML document as generic XML, it shall only recognize attributes of type ID (i.e. the id attribute on most XHTML elements) as fragment identifiers." 16:22:25 CL: SOAP doesn't have a DTD at all (security and performance reasons). 16:22:36 CL: But it has ID: http://www.w3.org/TR/soap12-part2/#idattr 16:22:55 NM: It's a schema ID, not a DTD ID 16:23:44 TAG Issue http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/2003-03-05-tagxmlid/slide4-0.html 16:23:47 Gudge says SOAP IDs are neither DTD IDs nor XML Schema IDs. 16:24:02 [CL hints that he is writing a finding as we speak on this topic.] 16:24:28 CL: Lots of discussion on www-tag; people made good comments and suggestions. 16:24:34 micah has joined #tp 16:24:45 An example - xml:id http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/2003-03-05-tagxmlid/slide5-0.html 16:24:50 Hixie has joined #tp 16:24:55 my mail is at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Jan/0431.html 16:25:03 CL: Class of solutions using a well-known name; if you want an ID, use that name. 16:25:24 CL: Let's put what we want in an XML namespace. 16:25:32 CL: E.g., xml:id (like xml:base) 16:25:43 CL: * Needs small change to instance document for each affected ID attribute 16:25:54 CL: Can't call things "partnum"; need to call xml:id 16:25:59 CL: Class 2 of solutions 16:26:05 http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/2003-03-05-tagxmlid/slide6-0.html 16:26:13 xml:idAttr 16:26:35 CL: Example: 16:26:43 CL: Says what attribute in this (sub)tree is of type ID 16:26:55 steve has joined #tp 16:26:57 CL: Scope issues arise. 16:27:05 CL: (When mixing namespaces) 16:27:48 the first sent of this slide is wrong. 16:27:50 CL: Another class of solution: require the internal DTD subset 16:27:54 http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/2003-03-05-tagxmlid/slide7-0.html 16:28:02 CL: A predeclared attribute in the xml namespace, of type ID 16:28:09 Example: 16:28:11 16:28:11 ]> 16:28:11 16:29:03 CL: To some extent, saying how to solve the problem when you have a DTD or Schema is sidestepping the issue. 16:29:09 CL Questions: 16:29:11 http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/2003-03-05-tagxmlid/slide8-0.html 16:29:20 mimasa has joined #tp 16:29:32 xml:id -- just do it 16:29:46 Al Gilman (AG) 16:30:26 AG: We have an early draft of XML Accessibility Guidelines. These are guidelines for people building XML vocabularies. 16:30:53 AG: It sounds like this needs a defaulting rule. If you have an attribute called "id" it should either be of type ID or, if not, in the document the type should be indicated. 16:31:24 AG: Let simple processors do simple things. Provide info for smart processors to do more. 16:31:34 why isn't anyone using the 2nd microphone? 16:31:44 CL: I would characterize that as the "sometimes steal 'id'" model. 16:32:01 AG: If you intend to use it for some other type, then you have to specify it inline; make the exception known. 16:32:06 Richard Tobin (RT) 16:32:39 bwm has joined #tp 16:32:42 RT: There's a common thread in several specs since XML - gradual removal of the internal subset and DTDs generally. 16:32:54 RT: There are three parts of DTDs handled in different ways: 16:32:58 marie has joined #tp 16:33:02 a) Content model and typing by xml schema 16:33:10 howcome has joined #tp 16:33:10 b) External entities -> XInclude. 16:33:15 emmanuel has joined #tp 16:33:22 c) No current proposal for replacing character refs and internal entities. 16:33:33 RT: And yet! The question of IDs still arises. 16:33:52 RT: Why isn't the question of IDs covered by one of the three above technologies? 16:34:00 RT: I think IDs are more fundamental than the rest of typing. 16:34:21 RT: I think the xml:id or "steal id" proposals are the right ones. 16:34:28 RT: Take IDs out of typing. 16:34:38 CL: IDREF also needs to be address, I would think. 16:34:42 Steven Pemberton (SP) 16:34:57 SP: The TAG needs a rep from a mobile phone company - cost of downloading another resource. 16:35:16 SP: Good thing about small phones is they hurt less when someone you tell "download' to throws them at you. 16:35:34 SP: We need this solution in a Rec-trcak document. 16:35:36 shayman has joined #tp 16:35:52 amy has joined #tp 16:36:31 CL: TAG expects to summarize points that have been made, but not to do the work. 16:36:40 SP: Please get this done quickly. 16:36:49 Rigo Wenning (RW) 16:37:03 RW: Relationship between ID and privacy. 16:37:31 RW: P3P WG struggled for a while over questions on type ID. Please stick to syntax of ID; if you try to get into semantics, you'll get lost. 16:37:37 [Norm Walsh Presentation] 16:37:47 XML Profiles 16:37:51 http://www.w3.org/2003/03/05/tag/xmlProfiles-29/ 16:38:02 can norm make his slide text bigger? 16:39:31 Overview: http://www.w3.org/2003/03/05/tag/xmlProfiles-29/foil01.html 16:39:49 Chris has joined #tp 16:39:50 The Problems http://www.w3.org/2003/03/05/tag/xmlProfiles-29/foil02.html 16:39:57 NW: 16:39:57 * 16:39:57 Subsets (profiles) are bad for interoperability. 16:39:59 yasuyuki has joined #tp 16:40:13 What to Do? http://www.w3.org/2003/03/05/tag/xmlProfiles-29/foil03.html 16:40:28 chrisf has joined #tp 16:40:37 NW: 16:40:37 The TAG considered the issue and decided that a reasonable compromise might be to define a single subset. 16:41:13 NW: And that is backwards compatible with xml 1.1, language excludes DTD declarations. 16:41:19 Related Issues 16:41:22 http://www.w3.org/2003/03/05/tag/xmlProfiles-29/foil04.html 16:41:40 Discussion http://www.w3.org/2003/03/05/tag/xmlProfiles-29/foil05.html 16:41:42 PStickler has joined #tp 16:41:56 * 16:41:56 Is the potential for a proliferation of specialized XML subsets a problem that the W3C should attempt to address? 16:41:56 * 16:41:56 Should the W3C pursue a subset of XML 1.1? 16:41:56 * 16:41:58 How would this work relate to XML unification/simplification efforts such as Tim Bray's SW draft. 16:42:14 gerald has joined #tp 16:42:14 PStickler has joined #tp 16:42:16 Skunkworks spec from TB: http://www.textuality.com/xml/xmlSW.html 16:42:29 Henry Thompson (HT) 16:42:42 s/can/may/ 16:42:47 HT: Yes, this is a problem and we should do something about it. 16:42:58 HT: I don't think the notion of subset is the right way to pursue it. 16:43:11 bwm, this IRC channel is public, if that is what you ask 16:43:22 HT: The core value of XML is interoperability. 16:43:39 HT: The XML spec designed in two alternative conformance levels. 16:43:41 conformant processing of all content 16:43:52 HT: I think the correct way to approach this problem is to introduce a third conformance level. 16:43:54 Christoph has joined #tp 16:43:54 with different results depending on validation or not 16:44:00 HT: You can conform and ignore the DOCTYPE statement. 16:44:04 third conformance level with ignored doctypes 16:44:17 HT: That way all xml processors will still be able to process all xml documents. 16:44:31 HT: E.g., SOAP Processor that conforms to this third class. 16:45:02 RF: The need that I see in SOAP is the ability to tell a fully level compliant XML processor to disable those features. 16:45:28 jeffm has joined #tp 16:45:30 RF: It's a different type of problem; not just stds compliance but providing developers with an option to do less. 16:45:34 Arnaud Le Hors (ALH) 16:45:42 ALH: We discussed this issue yesterday in XML Core. 16:45:44 olindan has joined #tp 16:45:53 ALH: I got an action to give a status report on our thoughts 16:46:11 ALH: We have been trying to not jump to any conclusions; we are going through the exercise of defining requirements first. 16:46:30 ALH: I think the TAG's expression of its conclusion was misleading. 16:46:43 ALH: I want to clarify that we are following the process of requirements, then proposing a solution. 16:46:55 ALH: We also invite other WGs to tell us what their requirements are. 16:47:10 ALH: The main incentive for doing work in this area is to avoid the proliferation of subsets. 16:47:21 ALH: One proposal : XML 1.0 without DOCTYPEs. 16:47:32 ALH: As a test, would this meet the needs of the XMLP WG? 16:48:04 ora has left #tp 16:48:21 Burnett_ has left #tp 16:48:31 PC: I'm pleased that the WG where this work should be done is addressing this. 16:48:42 DC: The TAG also looked at requirements. 16:48:53 [adding to the Ian's last ALH line] "...if we toss doctype decl but not PIs" 16:49:09 Michael Sperberg-McQueen (MSMSMSMSMSMSMSMMSQMMM) 16:49:28 MSM: I'm glad that Core is looking at this. It's useful to learn from experience. 16:49:51 or a conformance level that says ignore doctypes and ignore pis - wait, ignoring pis is the current situation ..... 16:50:10 MSM: We can learn from XML 1.0 experience. Failure of community to take up stand-alone solution. 16:50:32 MSM: We would not, e.g., have the problem today that implementations assume that the DOCTYPE declaration is an instruction to the processor to validate. 16:50:41 MSM: It's a declarative statement, not imperative. 16:50:59 MSM: If implementers don't provide an option to turn it off, we will always have the problem RF cites. 16:51:26 MSM: We already have three conformance levels in practice (1) validating (2) non-validating but DTD-aware and (3) non-validating and DTD-unaware. 16:51:57 MSM: Whatever we do, the solution probably needs to incorporate a replacement for one important function - binding an instance to a particular document type definition. 16:52:22 wendy has joined #tp 16:52:22 MSM: Maybe a solution is another magic attribute (a la schema location). Need to solve nesting problem. 16:52:35 Paul Cotton (PC) 16:52:44 Namespace Documents 16:53:08 http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/techplen-tagissue8/ 16:53:27 namespaceDocument-8 : What should a "namespace document" look like? 16:53:31 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/ilist#namespaceDocument-8 16:53:38 PC: Several TAG participants working on a finding. 16:53:50 PC: We welcom your input. 16:54:12 History http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/techplen-tagissue8/slide2-0.html 16:54:42 PC: Disagreement about "# 16:54:42 * Schema languages are ideal for this" 16:55:22 Chris might better direct his mutterings to user agent and plugin developers... ;) 16:55:28 Tantek has joined #tp 16:57:18 PC: Tim Bray 14 theses 16:57:20 http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/techplen-tagissue8/slide3-0.html 16:58:05 PC: 12. Namespace documents should be human-readable. 16:58:29 PC: Those publishing W3C drafts need to provide human-readable namespace docs 16:58:57 PC: This issue is about "what format for the namespace doc" 16:59:22 PC: TB conclusion conflicts twith TBL's "Namespace documents should not be "schemas". 16:59:29 Norm has joined #tp 16:59:30 Namespace document alternative formats 16:59:32 http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/techplen-tagissue8/slide4-0.html 17:01:42 PC: Proposed alternatives - RDDL, RDF in HTML 17:02:00 PC: TBL desire for namespace to be machine readable without intervening processing. 17:02:30 PC: Question, e.g., of HTML user agent ignoring RDF, and RDF agent ignoring XHTML parts. 17:02:38 PC: TAG held a RDDL challenge to request alternatives. 17:03:06 PC: NW summary of proposals 17:03:14 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Jan/0004.html 17:04:04 PC: TAG considered results of challenge and commissioned a draft proposal (PC notes that the commissioned work is not a done deal). 17:04:19 Minimal RDDL 17:04:23 http://www.textuality.com/xml/rddl3.html 17:04:46 DaveO has joined #tp 17:04:49 PC: Uses a few XHTML elements (A) and attributes (nature, purpose) 17:04:59 PC: Did not propose to re-use rel/rev attributes of HTML 17:05:11 PC: Can use other useful attributes like "title" and "longdesc" 17:05:27 PC: Most of these proposals are mutually transformable; the proposals are all very similar. 17:05:41 Questions: http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/techplen-tagissue8/slide5-0.html 17:05:57 * Q1: Can namespace documents be human readable and machine processable? 17:05:57 * Q2: What do you think about the Minimal RDDL proposal? 17:05:57 * Q3: Do you think the TAG should progress the Minimal RDDL proposal on the W3C Recommendation track? 17:06:07 Steven has joined #tp 17:06:21 SueL has left #tp 17:06:44 ivan has joined #tp 17:07:54 David Cleary (?) 17:08:09 DC: Is the TAG considering deprecating the use of URNs for namespace documents? 17:08:22 [Point made about using URNs when you don't want the URI dereferenced.] 17:08:40 DC: We decided that resources SHOULD have representations available. 17:09:14 RF: You can use a URI that has a derference mechanism already, or use a URI for which you are going to deploy the dereference mechanism yourself. 17:09:27 PC polls room for who has read RDDL proposal: A few people 17:09:46 TBL: You should not use URNs since you SHOULD make available a representation. [RF's comment followed TBL's] 17:10:13 TBL: One reason why this issue has been difficult to resolve - some of the people doing DAML, OWL, etc. are different from folks doing XML processing. 17:10:40 TBL: Sem Web processors can resolve queries by picking up machine-readable defns of terms in real time. 17:10:49 TBL: Getting info about terms is useful. 17:10:52 Arthur has joined #tp 17:11:18 TBL: In RDF, all the metadata can be in the RDF doc itself. 17:11:35 TBL: The need for pointers to different types of resources (e.g., schemas) isn't as great in the sem web application. 17:12:15 TBL: It's not obvious whether the TAG should be trying to make everyone use the same thing; solution might be to fill a couple of particularly large gaps. 17:12:30 SZ: Have you written reqs for what a namespace doc should do? 17:12:39 geoff_a has joined #tp 17:12:40 DC: Yes, 6 proposals that are in discussion. 17:12:46 Zarella has left #tp 17:12:50 SZ: Many thanks to TAG and to audience for asking questions. 17:12:56 [Lunch] 17:13:57 I said 14 requirements, not 6 proposals, are under discussion. 17:14:48 gerald has joined #tp 17:26:17 PGrosso has left #tp 18:13:35 henri has joined #tp 18:14:03 Roger has joined #tp 18:14:04 henri_ has joined #tp 18:18:20 amy has joined #tp 18:19:53 howcome has joined #tp 18:27:28 mdubinko has joined #tp 18:31:23 Alan-2 has joined #tp 18:31:58 olivier has joined #tp 18:33:18 Christoph has joined #tp 18:33:23 Christoph has left #tp 18:38:11 geoff_a has joined #tp 18:38:38 jeffm has joined #tp 18:39:11 ygonno has joined #tp 18:39:35 mdubinko has joined #tp 18:44:20 marja has joined #tp 18:47:42 JacekK has joined #tp 18:48:47 david_e3 has joined #tp 18:48:54 shayman has joined #tp 18:49:30 Norm has joined #tp 18:54:10 Tantek has joined #tp 18:54:45 reagle has joined #tp 18:56:12 help 18:56:30 ... sorry, no need for help 18:58:54 ivan has joined #tp 18:59:48 Christoph has joined #tp 18:59:50 chrisf has joined #tp 19:01:22 SueL has joined #tp 19:01:50 RAM_ has joined #tp 19:01:53 PGrosso has joined #tp 19:01:57 dougb has joined #tp 19:02:05 Marsh has joined #tp 19:02:10 lofton has joined #tp 19:02:20 dbooth has joined #tp 19:03:19 dino has joined #tp 19:03:25 geoff_a has joined #tp 19:03:46 Ben has joined #tp 19:03:48 luu has joined #tp 19:04:15 RylaDog has joined #tp 19:04:25 marie has joined #tp 19:04:30 JosD has joined #tp 19:04:32 marja has joined #tp 19:04:35 micah has joined #tp 19:04:49 em-lap has joined #tp 19:04:51 DanC has joined #tp 19:05:21 maxf has joined #tp 19:05:23 amy has joined #tp 19:05:28 Slides (in one file): http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/tp-steven-xforms/ 19:06:17 Session 4: Integrating our Products 19:06:59 mimasa has joined #tp 19:07:02 MSM has joined #tp 19:07:59 ddahl has joined #tp 19:09:22 timbl__ has joined #tp 19:12:05 Liam has joined #tp 19:13:07 oooh... ahhh... 19:13:29 dougb has joined #tp 19:15:55 Steven uses XForms to perform basic editing of XHTML 19:16:03 resulting in the reaction DanC mentioned 19:18:25 Novell's demonstration; 19:18:39 a full calculator, only using the actions of xforms plus xpath, no scripting 19:18:43 Pretty small font. 19:19:12 bh has joined #tp 19:19:22 KevinLiu has joined #tp 19:20:19 yasuyuki has joined #tp 19:20:33 David shows the zipcode resolver example 19:20:34 Jonathan has joined #tp 19:21:03 then, a phone number filter 19:21:16 ivan has joined #tp 19:21:18 amy has joined #tp 19:21:42 rrsagent where am i? 19:21:52 See http://www.w3.org/2003/03/05-tp-irc#T19-21-42 19:21:56 last example: travel recording example 19:21:57 JacekK has joined #tp 19:22:00 what broswer is being used in this presenation? 19:22:21 em: this is not a browser, it is Novell's standalone xform processor 19:22:31 thanks ivan 19:23:21 shows the dependencies among field appearances 19:23:39 details at http://www.novell.com/xforms/ 19:23:40 done purely using the dependencies based on the xpath values, no scripting 19:24:19 steve: important point that when you make a submit, you do not replace the whole document 19:24:27 ------------- xsmiles demo 19:25:08 details for this one at http://www.x-smiles.org/ 19:25:10 smil document with svg 19:25:21 (zooming in to some svg part) 19:25:40 it is a reearch browser at HUT, ongoing work 19:25:48 completely open source in java 19:25:55 hmm... TAG issue on mixed namespace docs... I wonder if these xsmiles folks have some advice. 19:26:05 main princpiles: standard compliance, mixing xml docs, 19:26:14 Dave has joined #tp 19:26:37 support xml+ns, xslt, xhtml basic + css, xsl fo 19:26:47 showing browser with xsl fo 19:26:51 bwm has joined #tp 19:27:01 showing also multipage documents 19:27:07 maxf has joined #tp 19:27:13 Nobu has joined #tp 19:27:30 shows smil example with xforms ('phone ordering system') 19:27:38 simonSNST has joined #tp 19:28:24 as a research project is to implement the latest of w3c; concentrating a lot on xforms 19:28:52 eg a bookmark editor 19:29:21 (using list massaging in xforms) 19:30:08 jeffm has joined #tp 19:30:36 shows a smil + xform demo to launch audio messages 19:31:07 (submission errors are reported by voice) 19:31:23 using unwritable four letter words.... 19:31:55 svg+xforms demo: map of Finland with user interface in xforms 19:33:41 mediaqueries: weather demo : for desktop, it shows as a 3D graph (using X3D), for phone, the outlook is just a small screen with data 19:33:59 the gui is actually a smil document 19:34:16 looking at a digital tv, there is again another smil document 19:34:56 clap, clap, clap... 19:35:44 --------- mathml demo (growing up with mathml) 19:36:15 AlanK has joined #tp 19:36:16 http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/03-tp-math/ 19:36:18 http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/03-tp-math/Overview.html 19:36:31 olindan has joined #tp 19:36:47 http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/03-tp-math/slide1-0.html 19:36:49 micah has joined #tp 19:36:58 Liam has joined #tp 19:37:41 chaalsBOS has joined #tp 19:38:11 foo 19:38:31 ndw has joined #tp 19:38:49 http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/03-tp-math/slide2-0.html 19:40:45 Zarella has joined #tp 19:42:20 ------------- Demonstrations 19:42:47 shows an xhtml doc with mathml inside 19:42:58 two halves: presentation markup and content markup, shown on the example 19:43:19 rendered in mozilla; mozilla has a native presentation mathml 19:43:38 client side xsl transforms content markup into presentation markup 19:43:58 same document in ie, looks the same 19:44:10 uses behaviours, and uses math player for design science 19:44:37 Jacek, I'll be getting the URI soon 19:44:39 the same stylesheet transforms to html plus the necessary extension mechanism 19:44:54 JacekK, no URI for demo yet, but a similar presentatin is at http://www.w3.org/Math/XSL/mml2002-01.xml 19:45:06 shows the xhtml source with a stylesheet at the top 19:45:17 works in Mozilla and IE ! 19:45:21 (and Amaya) 19:45:39 in mathml I can use links, shows a link to maple 19:46:13 You can copy and paste the formulas from your browser, and send them directly to your computer algebra system 19:46:21 shows in presentation markup the formula is copy pastes to maple, the copy paste is in mathml 19:46:46 it could be a mathematical service, the point is that this is not an image 19:47:05 http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/03-tp-math/slide4-0.html 19:48:06 PStickler has joined #tp 19:50:02 http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/03-tp-math/slide5-0.html 19:50:46 maxf` has joined #tp 19:51:46 http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/03-tp-math/slide6-0.html 19:52:28 Bernard has joined #tp 19:53:43 clap clap clap.... 19:54:05 lofton has joined #tp 19:54:12 --------- question time 19:54:36 daniel austin (?) 19:54:45 that is correct. 19:54:51 asir has joined #tp 19:54:55 mdubinko has joined #tp 19:55:00 what strikes me is the commonalities of the problems, how do we make documents from multiple namespaces 19:55:07 dubya1 has joined #tp 19:55:20 has w3c the intention to solve this problem once and for all, rather than in pieces 19:55:42 PStickler has joined #tp 19:55:45 Stephen: is probably a problem for the tag 19:55:58 danc: you guys know more of this that the tag does 19:56:22 s/that/than 19:56:42 the tag had the issue of mixing namespaces, so there is the work done in the mean time, it is good that part of this work is done 19:56:56 do you see a solution from your perspective 19:57:10 Stephen: I believe it is doable, I do not have a clear picture 19:57:23 philippe hoschka: to respond to austin's question 19:57:50 there was a task force to look at that issue, right now there is a new interest for that, Ph le Hegaret is looking for people working on this 19:58:02 Component Extension Framework 19:58:09 Component Extensions (aka Plug-in API) 19:58:09 if you are interested in that talk to him or to me, there is a chance that we will address the issue 19:58:27 there is a requirements document at http://www.w3.org/TR/CX 19:58:28 steve zilles 19:58:59 ircleuser has joined #tp 19:59:01 ivan has joined #tp 19:59:18 tag issue on mixed namespace docs, which got exploded into 3 smaller bits... http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/ilist#mixedNamespaceMeaning-13 19:59:19 sz: there is now more consciousness of what the pbs really are 19:59:26 tv raman 19:59:59 there is also a set of fundamental xml-ish format, like what steven mentioned 20:00:04 the id problem 20:00:19 these are purely syntax, can be solved independently 20:01:09 chris lilley: responding to daniel's point, the problem is when people create part of document, not the whole thing 20:01:11 hmm... interesting point about "those bits can only go in once, so can't be used in XForms". "self-similar syntax" really does have teeth. 20:02:04 ann basetti: one of the problems, why is it all these wonderful work has not been implemented at large 20:02:13 we need these things in products 20:02:24 it takes a loooong time to get it into products 20:02:39 ht has joined #tp 20:02:43 timbl: 20:02:50 dbooth has joined #tp 20:03:27 the same thing that applies to mathml in svg is the same when you encrypt something which you xslt and you put in something else 20:03:41 should we do the xinclude processing, then the encryption, does this mess up something 20:03:56 the model must be a top down one, elaborating top down 20:04:20 sandro has joined #tp 20:04:27 give up, too fast to for me... 20:04:43 you asked whether w3c would solve it: you ARE w3c, 20:05:08 TimBL: don't think in terms of defining a document, rather define elements 20:05:28 tobin, edinburgh: 20:05:46 TimBL: You wont be able to change the meaning of your cousin elements. 20:05:47 mime to documents, some people said as it was the same as multinamespace document 20:06:04 different people want to define theirown document 20:06:33 the solution the entity is not to tie to the namespace, it is not a one-to-one correpondence 20:07:10 secondly: tim describes a top down processing model 20:07:33 there are lots of different thing one can do with the same document, I want to separate the processing of the document from the document itself 20:08:07 DC: "The future is longer than the past." 20:08:10 danc: lots of time wg do sometimes first something which is fast but broken 20:08:21 keep the good the fight, future is longer than the past 20:08:22 mitrepaul has joined #tp 20:08:42 ivan has left #tp 20:09:01 Session 5: W3C Glossary: Schema and Tools for Interoperability and Common Understanding 20:09:08 -------------------------------------- 20:10:43 marie has joined #tp 20:10:44 Presenter 1: Wendy Chisholm (WC) from W3C 20:11:09 JosD_ has joined #tp 20:11:31 Panel: Lofton Henderson (QA), Hugo Haas (WS), Norm Walsh (XMLSpec), Olivier THeraux (QA) 20:15:16 ivan has joined #tp 20:15:26 Steven has joined #tp 20:15:33 URL for slides? 20:15:43 not available as yet 20:16:00 nor these ones 20:16:10 See http://www.w3.org/2003/03/05-tp-irc#T20-16-00 20:16:41 Presenter 2: Lofton Henderson (QA) 20:16:46 PStickler has joined #tp 20:17:13 the question is not to know where you are but where you go 20:17:26 olivier has joined #tp 20:18:03 no slides 20:18:07 available 20:18:12 :-{ 20:18:20 judy has joined #tp 20:18:24 which is a shame, given than there are complaints about projected text size 20:18:35 pointer to WAI glossary? QA glossary? 20:18:40 Christoph has joined #tp 20:18:50 http://www.w3.org/QA/glossary for QA glossary 20:18:56 amy has joined #tp 20:18:59 http://www.w3.org/QA/2003/03/gloss-slides.zip 20:19:12 I think those are his slides 20:19:17 can someone near lofton get him to enlarge his slides? completely unreadable from the back -- and mostly inaudible as well 20:19:27 grussell has joined #TP 20:19:28 http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/Glossary 20:19:43 hmm... some of these terms are parameterized... e.g. "Conforming Document" -- http://www.w3.org/QA/glossary 20:19:43 ... is WAI Glossary 20:20:19 steph-tp has joined #tp 20:20:50 bwm has joined #tp 20:21:36 Burnett_ has joined #tp 20:21:38 hmm... I much prefer glossaries that refer to the discussion of the term in context; i.e. more of an index. 20:21:46 maxf has joined #tp 20:22:17 Presenter 3: Hugo Hass (Web Services) 20:22:59 s/Hass/Haas/ 20:23:22 tvraman has joined #tp 20:23:30 ie. aas not ass :) 20:24:37 chrisf has joined #tp 20:25:20 halindrom has joined #tp 20:25:21 DanC, any example? 20:25:27 slides are http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/0304-hh-gloss/all.svg 20:26:45 html version http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/0304-hh-gloss/ 20:26:51 Presenter 4: Norm Walsh (XML Spec) 20:27:21 tvraman has left #tp 20:27:43 Stuart has joined #tp 20:28:38 libby has joined #tp 20:29:15 Z has joined #tp 20:29:48 Z has left #tp 20:30:02 Presenter 5: Olivier Theraux (QA Glossary Tools) 20:30:26 amy has joined #tp 20:30:46 Norm's slides are at http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/techplen-xmlspecglossaries/ 20:31:41 olivier's slides : http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/03-05-glossary-ot/all.svg 20:31:59 html version : http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/03-05-glossary-ot/ 20:36:12 simonSNST has joined #tp 20:38:53 McGlashan has joined #tp 20:39:09 ndwalsh has joined #tp 20:40:00 Stuart has left #tp 20:40:49 -------- Q&A -------- 20:40:56 stay tuned... to what/where? 20:41:22 Charles McN (W3C) 20:41:30 the glossary project page 20:41:34 linked from the slides 20:41:35 oops representing Sidar at the mic. 20:42:04 CMN: Are you looking at going over existing specs? That's what we are doing for translations of terms. 20:42:11 ah... glossary project home. http://www.w3.org/QA/2003/01/Glossary 20:42:21 reagle has left #tp 20:42:42 seems to be in weblog form... is an RSS feed available? 20:43:01 OT: THe ultimate goal is that we provide tools. Not just a single glossary. 20:43:11 Roger Cutler (Chev-Tex) 20:43:25 RC: I've been helping HH on the WS glossary. 20:43:43 RC: I disagree that a glossary arch with levels will scale. 20:44:01 RC: You keep using "agent" as an example - that is a case that will work. 20:44:03 grussell has left #TP 20:44:17 r12aBOS has joined #tp 20:44:19 RC: many other terms won't work. 20:44:36 RC: If you use terms with a different mindset you are screwed. 20:44:43 more glossary fodder: http://www.w3.org/Help/siteindex 20:44:49 WC: We are not limiting the number of definitions. 20:44:55 Arnaud le Hors (IBM) 20:45:07 ALH: I'm puzzled how the W3C staff address issues. 20:45:24 ALH: Some of these things are in XML form, clearly marked. 20:45:42 ALH: Don't ignore the XML that is already there. 20:45:56 OT: I focussed on HTML because it is hard to extract. 20:46:04 OT: Some people don't want to use XML Spec. 20:46:16 OT: tool must be flexible 20:46:34 ALH: You should lobby more people to use XML Spec 20:46:59 Martin, a disembodied voice, says some terms in XML spec are not marked up. 20:47:12 Norm Walsh: people can use bad markup anywhere 20:47:20 Tantek Celik (Microsoft) 20:47:59 TC: and are new, why aren't we using
? 20:48:19 NW: XML Spec has more precise semantics. 20:48:22 and 20:48:22 I think the english word "term" predates HTML. 20:48:32 rrsagent, where am I? 20:48:32 See http://www.w3.org/2003/03/05-tp-irc#T20-48-32 20:48:33 (go TC! that was my question to spec-prod years ago. or to SGML-ERB or something. yes, seems gratuitous to me too.) 20:48:59 OT: I read HTML 4.01 - it's less than clear. It isn't pushy about this. Freedom in use of
20:49:15 --------------------------------------------------- 20:49:21 I thought XML was extensible--why can't someone develop a DTD that uses terms in their own language like English instead of html-eze! 20:49:21 END OF SESSION 20:51:19 so, as a little experiment, would anyone like to try this little rdf toy? http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/2003/03/05/2003-03-05.html#1046889477.917832 20:56:07 McGlashan has left #tp 20:56:53 ht has joined #tp 21:01:21 Ben has joined #tp 21:01:27 join #svg 21:06:29 boohoo hoo 21:07:01 *so do we have to do what simon says? 21:07:16 that is correct. 21:07:27 boohoo hoo 21:08:46 Session 6: One Web or Four? ----------------------------- 21:09:07 ------------------------------- 21:09:11 Session 6: One Web or Four? 21:09:16 ------------------------------- 21:11:46 amylap has joined #tp 21:14:18 shayman has joined #tp 21:15:49 simon-scr has joined #tp 21:16:24 Gudge has joined #tp 21:17:06 ivan has joined #tp 21:17:09 geoff_a has joined #tp 21:17:14 stuart williams introduces. 21:17:32 mdubinko has joined #tp 21:17:39 web is growing, moving in many different directions. how to maintain coherence. 21:17:50 outside w3c, activities on the grid. 21:17:58 each speaker will speak about 10 minutes. 21:18:12 PStickler has joined #tp 21:18:18 bwm has joined #tp 21:18:45 henry_edi has joined #tp 21:18:48 Panelists (cont'd): Brian McBride, Co-Chair, RDF Core WG; on the Semantic Web 21:18:53 maxf has joined #tp 21:19:00 Moderator: Stuart Williams, TAG 21:19:18 slides: http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/techplen-oneweborfour/ 21:19:24 r12aBOS has joined #tp 21:19:37 mimasa has joined #tp 21:19:38 steven's slides: http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/tp-steven-web/ 21:20:00 noah's slides: http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/techplen-ws/w3cplenaryhowmanywebs.htm 21:20:13 brian's slides: http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/techplen-sweb/ 21:20:14 Question for panel: Is a description of a resource a representation of that resource? 21:20:18 ---------- 21:20:27 Steven - One web or four 21:20:29 ---------- 21:20:52 current slide set: http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/techplen-oneweborfour/ 21:21:11 concern today with human web, not the humans here, though. 21:21:46 reason HTML is successful is it is easy to use. 21:21:54 granma can make a web site. 21:22:01 Ben has joined #tp 21:22:09 1991, a grand ol' age. 21:22:21 now power packed pcs, etc. 21:22:44 since then, xml has evolved. 21:23:01 Tantek has joined #tp 21:23:14 an html doc 2001 is bigger, but computer bigger, so no sweat. 21:24:07 by 2010, all using euro. woohoo. 21:24:11 no sweat for the computer, but what about the user? 21:24:48 why not leave to authoring tools? 21:25:13 vi rules! 21:25:26 amy has joined #tp 21:25:51 if you count heads, I'm pretty sure, to several orders of magnitude, all authors use frontpage 21:26:12 conclusion: computers are getting more powerful, people aren't. 21:26:32 steve has joined #tp 21:26:34 KevinLiu has joined #tp 21:26:36 roy fielding, speaking on the 'Boring' web. 21:26:44 ---------- 21:26:49 Roy Fielding 21:26:51 ---------- 21:26:53 mitrepaul has joined #tp 21:26:56 See http://www.w3.org/2003/03/05-tp-irc#T21-26-53 21:27:23 dbooth has joined #tp 21:27:33 shayman has joined #tp 21:27:33 MarkJ has joined #TP 21:27:36 is there a url for these slides? 21:27:39 mnot has joined #tp 21:28:10 high-level requirements. 21:28:23 low entry-barrier. 21:28:32 "The only time you hear about HTTP is when something goes wrong." -- RoyF 21:28:33 slh has joined #tp 21:28:37 ScottMcG has joined #tp 21:28:40 multiple organizational bounsaries. 21:28:53 ddahl has joined #tp 21:28:54 distributed hypermedia system. 21:29:05 MSM, thanks. 21:29:20 we need to plan for gradual fragmented change. 21:29:38 it doesn't cahnge that much, like html. 21:30:02 distributed hypermedia system. 21:30:13 good for large data xfers. 21:30:19 olivier has joined #tp 21:30:25 sensitive to user-perceived latency 21:30:44 Roland has joined #tp 21:30:46 capable of disconnected ... (missed last word). 21:30:53 operation 21:30:59 HTTP 21:31:01 Ina, thanks. 21:31:06 s/Ina/Ian/ 21:31:17 REST Architectural style 21:31:49 Steven has joined #tp 21:31:53 an attempt to come up with a rationale for showing/telling folks how their software sucks. 21:32:11 what is it you are trying to achieve with your product on the web? 21:32:44 REST Architectural style is the basis for how Roy desigened HTTP 1.1 extensions, and for defense of them. 21:33:07 REST STyle Derivation Graph (no ref). 21:33:16 simon, will have uris in a sec 21:33:21 client-sever paradigm. 21:33:28 janet, dake. 21:33:29 Steven has joined #tp 21:33:32 s/dake/danke/ 21:33:43 sever, hmm... 21:33:51 s/sever/server/ 21:33:51 Representational State Transfer (REST) 21:33:55 http://www.ics.uci.edu/~fielding/pubs/dissertation/rest_arch_style.htm 21:34:04 See http://www.w3.org/2003/03/05-tp-irc#T21-33-55 21:34:06 Ian, thanks bud. 21:34:26 REST Process View graph. 21:34:37 REST Uniform interface. 21:34:52 Pictures are not sufficient. 21:34:57 timbl__ has joined #tp 21:35:04 five primary interface constraints. 21:35:09 Norm has joined #tp 21:35:23 hard to keep without refs. 21:35:43 noted on slides. 21:35:48 panel questions. 21:35:57 how many webs should there be? 21:36:25 ted has joined #tp 21:36:33 ---------- 21:36:47 noah mendelsohn 21:36:48 ---------- 21:37:15 http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/techplen-ws/w3cplenaryhowmanywebs.htm 21:37:25 noah has a sense of there being more than one web. 21:37:30 this is how he thinks about it. 21:37:36 Olin_Dan has joined #tp 21:37:43 at core we have a web of names. 21:37:48 henri has joined #tp 21:37:49 named by a URI. 21:37:55 frankmcca has joined #tp 21:38:02 in this, there is a web of widely deployed shcemes. 21:38:15 de facto, it is a web of things you can minipulate. 21:38:22 roy has given us a model. 21:38:34 RESTful web. 21:38:54 http/https are protocols of REST. 21:39:03 core protocols of web as deployed. 21:39:37 also web of widely deployed media types. 21:39:43 cool picture. Ian, this would be a great "story" for the arch doc intro, no/ 21:39:45 ndw has joined #tp 21:39:45 no? 21:40:22 I'll check it out with Noha. 21:40:24 Noah 21:41:09 technology comparison. 21:41:18 on browseable web, things are uris. 21:41:23 dougb has joined #tp 21:41:29 folks don't use uris aggresively enough. 21:41:43 for example, you don't see uris for every stock quote. 21:42:23 web services need to run over more than http. 21:42:42 furthermore, history that SOAP has misued HTTP. 21:43:24 this slide - http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/techplen-ws/w3cplenaryhowmanywebsp16.htm 21:43:52 marja has joined #tp 21:44:03 Noah: "the option is now there [in SOAP 1.2] to do things correctly" 21:44:18 noah claims, you cannot rely on people to know if they got the right thing. 21:45:00 slide - http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/techplen-ws/w3cplenaryhowmanywebsp18.htm 21:45:12 amazing. is there an HTML version of this presentation where the text is in markup instead of being trapped in a .gif? 21:45:28 JosD_ has joined #tp 21:45:31 not that i am aware of :^( 21:46:08 hi, tantek 21:46:28 slides currently are in this format - generated from Freehand 21:46:58 slides - http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/techplen-sweb/slide1-1.html 21:47:03 Conclusions covered on http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/techplen-ws/w3cplenaryhowmanywebsp22.htm 21:47:14 ---------- 21:47:14 Slides for Roy's presentation now available: http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/techplen-http/ 21:47:24 ---------- 21:47:27 Brian McBride, Co-Chair, RDF Core WG; on the Semantic Web 21:47:29 ---------- 21:47:43 http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/techplen-sweb/ 21:47:52 /msg frankmcca so whaddya think of Noah's talk? 21:48:05 specifcially that slide was mostly w3cplenaryhowmanywebs16.gif 21:48:11 how many webs? ONE - but it is multifaceted and its architecture has structure 21:48:24 What does sWeb need from web architecture? 21:48:32 naming... 21:48:45 retrievability 21:48:50 precision 21:48:56 timbl, please see private message 21:48:56 structure 21:49:28 Structure the architecture - http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/techplen-sweb/slide2-0.html 21:50:23 Naming and Retrievability 21:50:29 http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/techplen-sweb/slide3-0.html 21:50:39 Naming - sWeb needs to name things other than web resources 21:50:47 with some precision - e.g. a car and a picture of a car are not the same thing 21:51:03 Retrievability - sWeb needs to be able to retrieve information associated with a name 21:51:09 e.g. RDF Vocabulary definitions, OWL ontologies 21:51:36 For example... 21:51:42 http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/techplen-sweb/slide4-0.html 21:52:46 hmm... no # in the URI of the 'non document' issues list. 21:52:50 discussion of specific example. 21:53:32 ah... there is a # in the 2nd option on this slide. 21:53:33 hope id to have last call comments generated by software agents. 21:53:38 s/id/is/ 21:53:49 Christoph has joined #tp 21:53:52 In fact the web server doesn't say "that is not a document, look at Overview", it just returns the contents of Overview, n'est-ce pas? 21:53:55 s/hope/vision of hell/ 21:53:59 "One of my versions of hell is software generating last call comments." -- bwm 21:54:11 timbl__, it doesn't, but that's a bug in Apache 21:54:15 got it. thanks for the correction. 21:54:21 it should set the content-location: header to Overview.html 21:54:41 Precision - http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/techplen-sweb/slide5-0.html 21:54:47 (which is not exactly saying "this is not a document" either, but closer) 21:54:59 sWeb is building formal models - needs firm foundations to build on 21:55:10 [[A resource can be anything that has identity.]] 21:55:13 MJDuerst has joined #tp 21:55:24 RFC 2396 21:55:34 [[More precisely, a resource R is a temporally varying membership function M R (t), which for time t maps to a set of entities, or values, which are equivalent.]] 21:55:40 from roy's thesis. 21:56:07 encre has joined #tp 21:56:28 encre has left #tp 21:56:59 ---------- 21:57:04 stuart williams 21:57:07 ---------- 21:57:13 OPEN FOR QUESTIONS 21:57:25 jrobie... 21:57:41 strike... 21:57:48 roy comments. 21:57:54 jrobie.... 21:58:20 luu has joined #tp 21:58:24 there are some things that are obviously core, or you don't have a web. you can argue how many tou can squeeze in. 21:58:43 each of you has shown what a web is, while leaving something out that was essetial to someone else. 21:59:01 Gottfried has joined #tp 21:59:09 it is possible for many of us to spend a good part of our careers, working on something that someone else has solved using a different method. 21:59:27 (all jrobie comments abbove, as noted) 21:59:55 rigo has joined #tp 22:00:07 i think instead of arguing who gets to be in the middle, we have to assume differen folks use different tools. 22:00:18 mgylling has joined #tp 22:00:28 patrick (?) - 22:00:43 is a desrciption of a resource a valid description of the resorce? 22:00:55 if it is, (can someone fill in?) 22:01:01 ivan has joined #tp 22:01:23 then the resource is a description of a resource 22:02:00 RoyF: " if you have a description of a resource that is the resource, then the resource is a description of a resource" 22:02:32 RF: there are huge discussions on www-tag. 22:02:43 sw folks, please help 22:02:53 :) 22:02:58 RF: folks assume there is a framework that is consistent. 22:03:03 RoyF: if you have a picture of a car then of course people would consider that different from the car 22:03:24 AV, please cut Roy's mike ;-) 22:03:25 jack (?) 22:03:25 Technical description of discussion: Resources are cars. 22:03:39 timbl__: lol 22:04:01 as are descriptions of discussions :-) 22:04:12 are web services part of the www, or is the www part of the ws world, or an application thereof? 22:04:18 mdubinko has joined #tp 22:04:33 how about implementing http over soap and calling it shttp? 22:04:40 (above was jack) 22:05:01 Jacek Kopecski (sp), Systinet 22:05:04 xhttp 22:05:05 NM: we engineered soap to be more RESTful... 22:05:11 janet, thanks. 22:05:15 sure 22:06:02 NM: the fact that our envelopes use uris... 22:06:15 NH: gives us better use (?) of them. 22:07:29 RF: most of his criticisms over the years were of SOAP 1.1 22:08:03 pat hayes... 22:08:09 Pat Hayes, U of west FLa 22:08:15 (Web Ont WG) 22:08:19 PH: there are no names on the web at all. just links. 22:08:46 there is a huge hole in this story. 22:08:56 PH: there are no protocols for naming things. 22:08:59 sorry, jacek, for mangling your last name 22:09:03 marie has joined #tp 22:09:08 dadahl has joined #tp 22:09:12 PH: we have to invent ad hoc ways of naming things. 22:09:18 PH: mass delusion. 22:09:24 (illusion?) 22:09:40 delusion he said 22:09:48 BSM: i think you overstate your case. 22:09:52 I heard illusion 22:10:01 mimasa has joined #tp 22:10:10 the names are not an illusion, but the bing between the object and the name (something). 22:10:20 s/bing/binding/ 22:10:54 Indeed one names thinhe alluded to an illusion but was deluded. 22:11:25 Pat alluded to an illusion but was deluded. 22:11:29 amy has joined #tp 22:11:36 Olin_Dan has left #tp 22:11:38 i missed the name of this gentleman. 22:11:42 wendy has joined #tp 22:11:47 jeremy carroll 22:11:51 HP 22:11:57 Jeremy Carrol from HP 22:12:00 libby, thanks. 22:12:17 NM: in priciple it is nice to have a truly uniform naming system. 22:12:26 ht has joined #tp 22:12:55 JosD_ has joined #tp 22:12:55 NM: then you get to the fact of the engineering matter. 22:13:05 Nobu has joined #tp 22:15:16 RF: things are coming together vs. falling apart. 22:15:25 David Orchard, BEA. 22:15:36 For the record: I have nothing against URIs, nor against typing them 22:16:15 DO: what different constraints than REST are being applied... 22:16:19 SOAs? 22:16:29 Service-Oriented Architectures 22:16:39 ty 22:16:48 DO: should W3C, in particualr TAg, be in the business of documenting one set of constraints? 22:17:10 DO: or describing overlap? 22:17:23 NM: i would appreciate form the TAG some calrity. 22:17:52 NM: i do not believe everything has to be RESTful. i would like to see the TAG weigh in on this. 22:18:28 NM: looking at scenarios of steaming vidoe, etc., REST is good. 22:18:48 s/steaming/streaming/ 22:18:54 phew. 22:20:02 RF: the goal of REST is not to tell folks the extent of the web. 22:20:16 p2p is tricky... it's clearly too important to ignore, but I haven't found time to play with it enough to answer the questions Noah just riffed about. 22:20:21 (what was the tail end of that comment?) 22:20:58 RF: if there are aspects of REST that don't fulfill web services, that's ok. 22:21:11 Noah said he'd like to have URIs for the P2P resources, but they involve an engineering architecture that's not obviously like http. Among other things. 22:21:13 NM: how about p2p and isochronous stuff? (voice/video)? is that RESTful? should it use HTTP? 22:22:04 RF: but you have to go back and decide (something). 22:22:22 Last session: Ian Jacobs chair 22:22:37 IJ: Let's do breathing exercises. 22:22:48 Is the Integer 1 a Resource? 22:23:11 Panelists: TimBL, SteveB 22:23:17 not true 22:23:23 http://www.iso.ch/integers/1 22:23:56 IJ proposes various topics 22:24:23 No, mdubinko, that's 404 not 1 :-) 22:24:26 Henry Thompson: About 15 people had a BOF on Linking. 22:24:47 20 more like 22:24:58 ... The Liking WG expired at end of 2002. There are structural and technical issues on moving forward about talking about links. 22:24:58 Tech Plenary feedback form: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/100/TP2003/ 22:25:25 The BOF agreed about some procedural issues. This will be sent to some list soon. 22:25:47 meanwhile, ht@w3.org will (likely) reach henry (re linking). 22:25:53 val:(http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema%23integer)1 (c.f. http://sw.nokia.com/metia/infrastructure/draft-pstickler-val-00.html) 22:26:04 The AB is dealing with Normative Errata. I think they've (finally) done a good job. 22:26:20 The new version of XML schema is trying out this new process. 22:26:35 Frank McCabe 22:26:49 BOF on Semantic Web Services. About 20 people. 22:26:59 amy has joined #tp 22:27:00 "1"^^ denotes the integer 1, and RDF says it's a resource ;-) 22:27:07 hmm... PStickler, I'd expect to find compare/contrast with data: in draft-pstickler-val. I don't see any. 22:27:16 Topics: What is meant by SW Services, and what to do about them. 22:27:27 Thinking of starting an IG 22:27:54 There will be a mailing list [scribe didn't get the name] 22:28:16 The semantic web also requires services, such as ontology services. 22:28:26 val: is similar to data: but more specialized 22:28:42 [list name www-ws, perhaps? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws/] 22:28:47 There is a class of services which have publicly understood semantics 22:28:59 Encourage people to participate 22:29:23 Martin Duerst: report on BOF on ??? (couldn't understand) 22:29:28 who was the guy who spoke about semantic web services? 22:29:39 ??? = glyph variants, I think. 22:29:42 Gaiji 22:29:45 Frank McCabe 22:29:57 Gaiji not the same as glyph variants 22:30:13 Kanji? 22:30:17 w3c-char-glyph 22:30:20 Martin: w3c-char-glyph 22:30:24 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-char-glyph/ 22:30:32 LX ? 22:30:50 David Marston, IBM, XSLT and Xpath conformance testing 22:30:54 Kanji which are new / unconventional / new variants of existing glyphs (so glyph variants aren't irrelevant) 22:30:56 in coord with OASIS 22:31:07 we're ready to show the test organization to the world 22:31:21 WIll be a good example of the QAWG test guideines 22:31:31 s/guideines/guidelines/ 22:31:46 gaiji subsumes glyph variants and non-encoded characters 22:32:00 Paul Cotton: As a TAG member, I notice only a few people on www-tag list. 22:32:27 When mixed namespace docs were being discussed, it was pointed out as an important problem. 22:32:32 but you could say that gaiji is a particular solution for these issues 22:32:41 How are we going to get those people engaged (if they aren't on the list) 22:33:11 I'd like to hear suggestions from the audience how the TAG is supposed to learn their views on the issues. 22:33:38 list per issue... ping has a tool that implemented that cheaply... nosylists or some such... 22:33:41 Should the TAG have some other mechanism to garner input? 22:33:57 The TAG should put a special filter on www-tag that doesn't accept any more than 2 postings per day by the same person. 22:34:05 TimBL: The guy who asked this question caught me at coffee break. 22:34:19 PGrosso++! 22:34:32 There are some people who expected it to be solved in another context (didn't get). 22:34:33 (except for the TAG members, of course) 22:34:42 PGrosso++ 22:34:48 The Tech plenary is a good place to bring these things up 22:35:04 XML Processing something... 22:35:06 The TAG doesn't solve all the problems, we try to pass them off. 22:35:12 maxf has joined #tp 22:35:21 The key difference between val: and data: is that data: would force all datatypes to be defined as content types whereas val: URIs are just RDF typed literals in URI form 22:35:30 Janet Daly: Paul Grosso on IRC suggests limiting the number of posts per day on www-tag 22:35:38 PStickler, pls say that in your draft. 22:36:10 Arnaud Lehors: I don't think that your care of the importance of a problem implies you want to work on solving it 22:36:11 The draft has expired. I guess I should re-publish it, with inclusion of the comparison with data: 22:36:12 outside of AC meetings, the tag list is OK, but in the AC meeting a bit of advertisement for the TAG issues would be helpful. We heard of three issues, we might have heard in less detail of more issues, and maybe early in the morning 22:36:35 gerald has joined #tp 22:37:02 can someone mention to folks to turn theirs phones to vibrate or something? 22:37:04 Al Gilman: Once an issue is accepted, the topic should be moved to a list which is archived, but not distributed 22:37:23 Not a list, but a wiki or other web forum thing. 22:37:40 (I tried launching a TAG wiki early on. it died due a combination of technical and social factors) 22:37:41 Marty Bingham: I'm concerned that working within WAI, we've been successful with outreach. (?) 22:38:03 Harvy Bingham 22:38:13 EricP: Report on RDF-Query and RuleML BOF... We had the longest running BOF. 22:38:38 We talked a lot about abstractions, etc, etc,. We started coming up with a model. 22:39:12 The problem is that there are RDF recommendations, but now how do you use it? Lots of query languages and protocols. 22:39:17 Where is the commonality. 22:39:37 Susan Lesch: Markup language tokens BOF (?) 22:40:17 We covered Classes, links, etc, etc. We came up 3 or 4 projects: Help for new/all editors. Document production tools. 22:40:35 Steven Pemberton: RDF... Who wants to write or read that stuff? (applause) 22:41:16 http://rdfstore.sourceforge.net/2002/06/24/rdf-query/ 22:41:22 TimBL: There are a lot of use cases for RDF queries 22:41:29 poor scribe. 22:41:39 On TAG: maybe the TAG could use bugzilla for issue tracking? (Bugzilla was suggested in the WS-Desc WG) 22:41:42 But they're not in XML, which is why they're easy. 22:41:50 <- query part of semweb arch meeting http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/meetings/tech-200303/ 22:41:59 """The first time I tried the RDFLib Python libraries, the lightbulb finally flashed on.""" 22:41:59 http://rdfstore.sourceforge.net/2002/06/24/rdf-query/: alberto and andy;'s document 22:42:06 http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2003/02/12/rdflib.html 22:42:14 Al Gilman: XAG makes radical claim is that the most useful doc is one readable both by people and machines. 22:42:51 We have in "accessibilty" some information which some users will process and others won't. 22:43:09 There's a strong appeal that you have and document a model. 22:43:36 There's not good documentation of what works and doesn't work. 22:44:15 Speculate we want to do lots of prototyping in RDF along the way 22:44:43 frankmcca has joined #tp 22:45:03 [scribe loses thread of this exposition] 22:46:28 Brian McBride, HP Labs: There was an occasion some months ago that Ian Horowitz said "no one can write this stuff (RDF-XML)" 22:46:37 I did it in the back of the room. 22:46:43 libby has left #tp 22:46:48 KevinL has joined #tp 22:46:49 libby has joined #tp 22:46:51 RDF is very elegant. Don't confuse it with the XML syntax 22:47:03 sjh has joined #tp 22:47:26 Roger Cutler: Al Gilman said "the core of the web is interaction between an individual and a machine" 22:47:35 I think that's the web of yesterday. 22:47:46 Steven has joined #tp 22:48:09 Norm has joined #tp 22:48:19 The new metaphor is business to business interaction. The W3C is not in the leadership position. I think it's OASIS 22:48:52 Steven has joined #tp 22:48:59 Pat Hayes: The DAML is encoded in RDF-XML. There are 6 million lines of code. 22:49:19 hugo has joined #tp 22:49:24 Who wants to write this stuff? Who wants to write XML? We do it because it's useful. 22:49:45 he said "who wants to write HTML" 22:49:53 Steven has joined #tp 22:50:00 Hakon Lie: Lots of people are using Emacs. It can be written beautifully. 22:50:21 I think a goal for W3C would be to reuse elements and attributes without using namespaces. 22:50:33 Steven has joined #tp 22:50:37 IJ: Tantek suggested there be a W3C namespace 22:51:12 TimBL: I think it's a perfectly reasonable idea. 22:51:27 in "It can be written beautifully." Hakon was talking about HTML. 22:51:50 [scribe welcomes all corrections] 22:51:59 Timbl: Just propose a WG 22:52:17 Steve Bratt: Let's applaud Ian. 22:53:08 Thanks to Amy Van der Heil, Josh Friel, Saeko Takeuchi, Marisol Diaz,... 22:53:10 I really would like to respond to the W3C vs OASIS comment........... 22:53:16 Thanks to systems team 22:53:23 thanks to scribes 22:53:38 Amy: Thanks to Ralph! 22:54:00 Steve: Thanks to Program Committee 22:54:17 dbooth has joined #tp 22:54:52 Steve: Fill out the Survey 22:54:57 Survey again is at http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/100/TP2003/ 22:55:10 Reception now? 22:55:17 yay! 22:55:27 Reception at 7 PM 22:55:31 Danc: It's avery good idea. If you want help as me for very BETA dumb tester 22:55:31 PGrosso has left #tp 22:55:35 I volunteer 22:55:55 Zarella has left #tp 22:56:03 ygonno has left #tp 22:56:25 caribou has left #tp 22:59:39 yasuyuki has left #tp 23:00:20 JacekK has left #tp 23:03:02 jim has joined #tp 23:03:25 ddahl has joined #tp 23:03:40 this is a test 23:03:41 hi 23:03:45 RylaDog has left #tp 23:04:21 mdubinko has joined #tp 23:04:37 ddahl has left #tp 23:05:43 jim has left #tp 23:13:09 ADJOURNED 23:28:33 Tantek has joined #tp 23:34:22 anybody else notice that the diagram on this slide http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/0305-sb-techplenintro/slide6-0.html is missing CSS? 23:36:23 IMHO, CSS should be in the aqua box with Accessibility etc., e.g.: CSS, Accessibility, Internationalization, Device Independence, QA 23:38:21 since all XML based semantic content markup languages can(should?) use CSS for presentation, and using CSS to separate the presentation from the content markup helps accessibility (user style sheets), internationalization (:lang etc.), device independence (media queries) 23:40:07 rrsagent, please excuse us 23:40:08 I see no action items