W3C WS Choreography WG conference call


27th January 2004


SRT: Given the problems with file formats and then the virus storm the agenda has only turned up today. This means we (the chairs) fall foul of the 24 hour rule. Therefore I would like to hear if there are any objections to proceeding with this meeting on the basis that the agenda was not published 24 hours prior to the meeting.

SRT: Hearing no objections the meeting will proceed.


Role Call



 Martin Chapman


Steve Ross-Talbot



W3C Staff Contacts


Yves Lafon



Anthony Fletcher

Choreology Ltd

Mayilraj Krishnan

Cisco Systems Inc

David Burdett

Commerce One

Ravi Byakod

Intalio Inc.

Abbie Barbir

Nortel Networks

Greg Ritzinger


Nickolas Kavantzas

Oracle Corporation

Jeff Mischkinsky

Oracle Corporation

Ivana Trickovic


Ugo Corda

SeeBeyond Technology Corporation

Daniel Austin

Sun Microsystems, Inc.

Monica Martin

Sun Microsystems, Inc.

Dinesh Shahane

TIBCO Software


Confirm scribe


Monica Martin volunteered to scribe.

IRC log is at: http://www.w3.org/2004/01/27-ws-chor-irc - T21-09-12


The following is a listof recent scribes (in order): Ugo, Corda, Mayilraj Krishnan, Ravi Byako, Martin Chapman, Steve Ross-Talbot, Monica Martin, Nick Kavantzas,Ed Peters, Anthony Fletcher, Jeff Michkinsky,  Dinesh Shahane, Greg Ritzinger, Ed Peters, David Burdett,Ivana Trickovic, Ugo Corda, Assaf Arkin, MonicaMartin, Carol McDonald, Nick Kavantzas, Tony Fletcher, Mayilraj Krishnan, Francis McCabe, Jeff Mischkinsky, David Burdett ,John Dart, MonicaMartin,Tony, Fletcher, Jim Hendler, Kevin Liu, TonyFletcher, Jon Dart, DavidBurdett,Ed Peters, Greg Ritzinger, Monica Martin, LenGreski, Jean-JacquesDubray,Monica Martin, Mayilraj Krishnan, FrancisMcCabe, Michael Champion,AbbieBarbir, David Burdett, Jon Dart, Carol McDonald,Yaron Goland, LeonardGreski,Ed Peters, Greg Ritzinger, Daniel Austin, PeterFurniss, Jim Hendler


Approve minutes

     Minutes 20th January 2004 (to do)
Minutes approved

Action item review



ACTION: Chairs to communicate f&p requirement to WS-CG (0113, 0120) DONE


ACTION: chairs should also ask marco to see if his requirements are captured within the latest req-doc (0113, 0120, 0127) IN PROGRESS


ACTION: record exceptions/errors as an issue. (0113,  0120, 0127) REPLACED

NEW ACTION: SRT and MM will provide further detail on the “banana-calculus” discussions in order to record this issue properly.

NEW ACTION: SRT will update bugzilla entries to reflect this.

These two new actions replace older action above.


ACTION:log as an issue is fork/join covered as requirements (0113, 0120) DONE


ACTION:log as an issue if external/internal choice is covered as requirements (0113, 0120) CLOSED  (covered in 342)


ACTION: Yves to add editor's draft on the public page (0113, 0120, 0127) IN PROGRESS

Yves: Model overview on public page. Need HTML/XML version.

Burdett: Not received on mailing list.

Burdett: Make available HTML/XML version to list and Yves.

SRT: Leave issue in progress. 


ACTION: Nick to define the features required of an intermediate end-point language (0113, 0120) IN PROGRESS

Kavantzas: Intermediate endpoint language - work in progress. Need feedback in modeling overview before proceeding.


ACTION: convert ER diagrams into UML class diagrams (0113, 0120, 0127) IN PROGRESS

Ritzinger: Converted ER to UML-class diagrams. Review pending Kavantzas/Burdett. Meeting cancelled this morning.


ACTION:editors to propose documents and table of contents (0113, 0120, 0127) IN PROGRESS

Kavantzas: Resolve this week.

Burdett: TOC has made more progress. Converging documents and TOC. Ritzinger review during call and then send to the list. 


ACTION:Monica to confirm hosting east coast pending a date from group. (0113, 0120) DONE

ACTION: Greg to check with Novell for hosting offer DONE..

Ritzinger: Next F2F in Summer 2004; Novell can do a F2F in Massachusetts for about 20 people.

Chapman:  F2F: Suggest June 2004.

SRT: 23-25 June 2004 proposed.

SRT: 9-11 June 2004 proposed.

Chapman: Members to inform of conflicting events.

NEW ACTION: Martin/Ritzinger: Check to confirm proposed F2F  location/dates/availability.

Kavantzas: Registration for March F2F?

Chapman: Plenary registration

Yves: Look at general member page.

Yves: Check to see if it linked.

               See: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/TPOverview.html


ACTION: Chairs to look into a far east meeting in sep/oct (0113, 0120, 0127) IN PROGRESS


ACTION: Chairs to organise an issues conference call in which the regular conf call is used with members to look at the issue in bugzilla (possibly the Jan6th conf call) (0113, 0120, 0127) ON HOLD UNTIL REQ DOC AVAILABLE FOR REVIEW


ACTION: Chairs to write proposal for group in defense of f&p in WSDL. (0113, 0120) DONE


ACTION: SRT to ask Honda, Yoshida, and Milner if they would be prepared to be invited experts. (0113) DONE

SRT: Invited experts – Dr. Nobuko Yoshida and Professor Robin Milner have accepted out invitation. Still awaiting a response from Dr. Kohei Honda.

NEW ACTION: Yves to steer through W3C procedure for invited experts. 



ACTION: DA to schedule the editors meeting (0113) DONE

Austin: Reqts team met last week; task list drawn up. Barbir, SRT tasks done.

ACTION: Chairs  to raise a topic of Binding, Context etc. (0113, 0120, 0127) IN PROGRESS

ACTION: Editors of the requirements are directed to look at the issues list and filter each issue in a similar way to thefiltering method used at the F2F.  To be taken into account at editors meeting in November. (1021, 1028,1111, 1118, 1125, 1202, 1209,0106, 0113, 0120, 0127) REPLACED

ACTION: With respect to requirements doc-  Abbie to send via email the corrected document as soon as available. (0106, 0113, 0120) REPLACED

ACTION: Requirements Editors – Review requirements doc by Jan13th including issues list review against document. (0106,  0113, 0120) REPLACED

NEW ACTION: Editors to issue requirements document for review on public mailing list for next call.

NEW ACTION: Chairs to schedule conference call to review requirements document (see above) .

ACTION: Steve/Martin - let us see some email traffic to manage the process to get the requirements doc reviewed quickly and published -if we cannot make it by 13th (which is tight) then we inform the members as such. (0106, 0113, 0120, 0127) DEPENDENT ON REQ DOC REVIEW (see above)


ACTION: Task Nick/David to come up with the what to do next by 27th (0106, 0113, 0120, 0127) IN PROGRESS

NEW ACTION: Steve to ask WSD WG whether they intend to support publish/subscribe MEP. (0120, 0127)


NEW ACTION: Spec editors to look at Attributes discussions in WSD WG archives and see if concepts can also apply to Choreography – Provide recommendation on how to proceed. (0120) DONE


NEW ACTION: future agenda item on choreography, Grid and Web services Management (0120)  DONE

Standing tracking items



Requirements Document Feedback

Nothing further to report

Issue tracking (progress/review – go through issues list)

Nothing further to report

Specification Editors report

               Model Overview

SRT: Model overview document: Ask for questions.

MM: Does transaction = choreography transaction?

Burdett: Related to recovery.  Chor describes sequences of messages exchanged related to a transaction. Look at Section 3.0.

Burdett: Multiple transactions within a choreography could occur.

Burdett: Each recovery units are defined as separate choreographies.

DB: Let's try to re-explain what we mean by txn.

MM: Issues or lack of understanding is in lines 234 - 238

MM: Are u seeing txns only in the terms of the choreography?

DB: Yes we are.

MM: Then you need to make this clear. Because there is history behind the notion of txn and therefore it needs to be made very clear as to what you mean.

MM: I'd like to get more detail on "import"       

DB: Our current "import" is not something we are totally happy with.

MC: I would suggest that what you should use to extend or refine needs to use a diff mechanism. Rather than lexical inclusion.       

SRT: Return to Model Overview in next conference call along with reqts document.       

SRT: Bring F2F issues to the call 3 February 2004.       

SRT: Need team to review and comments.       

NEW ACTION: Team to review the Model Overview prior to next meeting.        Martin: New use cases may impact Model Overview.       

Burdett: Auction use case as well.       

Burdett: Can we get auction use case in reqts document?       

SRT: Identify reqts not listed in the reqts document (that may be in a use case such as the Auction one).       

Chapman: Keep number of use cases at a premium.       

SRT: Need to make sure reqts identified in multi-party use case.       

Note: M.Martin provided some suggestions for functions that need to be expressed in requirements' ease (sent to list today).

Burdett: Is more than one participant in a role handled?        Chapman/SRT: Yes.

 Liaison Reports/Issues

            Globus World Announcement 

SRT: Liaison reports - Globus announcement?       

SRT: WS-ResourceFramework announcement       

SRT: OGSI retracted attribute reqts.       

SRT: Specifications are not in a standards body.       

Austin: Sun's representative has raised this issue about standards' body submission to GGF.       

SRT: What can we do to make an impact, to support our work?        Austin: WSA has addressed provisioning and resources.       

Chapman: Need to explore at a chairs' level.       

SRT: Look at WS-Agreement; choreography added value.       

Chapman: BPEL status response?       

M.Martin: Fell to the chairs to respond.


Hot topics

               Attributes in WSDL2.0 (see action above)

Corda: WSDL 2.0 attributes. Grid not interested in pursuing attributes; use WS-RF.       

Corda: Attributes were not a strong point for WSDL 2.0 and they may not be pursued.       

SRT: Stateful aspects - Is this how we should use the attributes? Should we base our work on functions outside of a standards body.       

Austin: Can we reference a non-standard or a specification under development in a standards body.       

Yves: Can only reference if non-normative.       

SRT: What did attributes give us? Approach GGF and ask their intent.        Austin: Ask WSD for comment.       

SRT: WSD will drop attributes.       

Austin: Will we be the only ones that may complain?       

Chapman: Do we have a need?       

Burdett: Concrete choreography may need to reference or describe attributes. Have not reviewed to formalize this idea.       

Corda: Attribute is not a property.       

Corda: Attributes are about how to manage, inquire about state.       

SRT: Attributes are like instance variables.       

Chapman: Agree.       

Chapman: Observable variables.       

SRT: Need to provide capability to GET/SET for that variable if no WSD attributes.       

Austin: Are we putting functionality into a proprietary forum?        Chapman: Architectural issues are under discussion about identity models.       

SRT: Related to binding of a web service to an identifiable instance?        Chapman: Yes.       

SRT: Enforce consistency across multiple identifies.

Chapman: Need to understand in choreography.       

Chapman: What is the state?       

Corba: WS-RF overlap to WS-CAF?       

Corba: WS-Context may be relevant to choreography.       

Corba: Can concentrate on them.       

SRT: No reason/strong case identified for WSD attributes. Case identified for GET/SET where web services need to consolidate state to make it observable.       

SRT: Close issue and allow WSD to take action.

               Relevance of WS-Agreement

   Not discussed.