IRC log of ws-arch on 2002-06-06

[Roger]
zakim, who is here?
[Zakim]
I see +1.503.712.aaaa, ??P8
[Roger]
zakim, ??p8 is Roger.Cutler
zakim, who is here?
[Zakim]
I see +1.503.712.aaaa, Roger.Cutler
[chris]
agenda+ 1. Roll call, scribes for minutes/action items (15.30 + 5)
agenda+ 2. Agenda review, and AOB (15.35 + 5)
agenda+ 3. Review and approval of 16 & 30 May telcon minutes [2,3] (15.40 + 5)
agenda+ 4. Review action items [4] (15.45 + 5)
agenda+ 5. Status (15.50 + 20)
agenda+ 6. Review of editor's draft snapshot documents for f2f review (16.10 + 10)
agenda+ 7. F2F Agenda review (16.20 + 15)
agenda+ 8. Proposed replacement text for D-AC009 (16:35 + 10)
agenda+ 9. Wrap up/AOB items (16.45 + 15)
zakim, agenda?
[Zakim]
I see 9 items remaining on the agenda:
1. 1. Roll call, scribes for minutes/action items (15.30 + 5) [from chris]
2. 2. Agenda review, and AOB (15.35 + 5) [from chris]
3. 3. Review and approval of 16 & 30 May telcon minutes [2,3] (15.40 + 5) [from chris]
[dbooth]
zakim, aabb is Mike.Brumbelow
[Zakim]
4. 4. Review action items [4] (15.45 + 5) [from chris]
5. 5. Status (15.50 + 20) [from chris]
6. 6. Review of editor's draft snapshot documents for f2f review (16.10 + 10) [from chris]
7. 7. F2F Agenda review (16.20 + 15) [from chris]
8. 8. Proposed replacement text for D-AC009 (16:35 + 10) [from chris]
9. 9. Wrap up/AOB items (16.45 + 15) [from chris]
[hima]
zakim, ??P14 is hima
[AlanD]
zakim, ??P19 is probably AlanD
[dbooth]
zakim, aaee is Alex.Cheng
[Zakim]
sorry, dbooth, I do not recognize a party named 'aaee'
[dbooth]
zakim, ScottV? is Alex.Cheng
[hugo]
Zakim, Bert has Hugo
[dbooth]
zakim, aadd is Mario.Jeckle
zakim, aacc may be Francis.McCabe
[hima]
Hima Scribe
[Kreger]
yes
[hima]
CF: Review of Agenda
[chris]
zakim, agenda?
[Zakim]
I see 9 items remaining on the agenda:
1. 1. Roll call, scribes for minutes/action items (15.30 + 5) [from chris]
2. 2. Agenda review, and AOB (15.35 + 5) [from chris]
3. 3. Review and approval of 16 & 30 May telcon minutes [2,3] (15.40 + 5) [from chris]
4. 4. Review action items [4] (15.45 + 5) [from chris]
5. 5. Status (15.50 + 20) [from chris]
6. 6. Review of editor's draft snapshot documents for f2f review (16.10 + 10) [from chris]
7. 7. F2F Agenda review (16.20 + 15) [from chris]
8. 8. Proposed replacement text for D-AC009 (16:35 + 10) [from chris]
9. 9. Wrap up/AOB items (16.45 + 15) [from chris]
[hima]
CF: David, Action Items
[hugo]
Agenda for F2F: http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/arch/2/06/wsawg-f2f-jun2002
[chris]
telcon for f2f needs discussion
[hima]
CF: Talk about lack of telcon for F2F, addittion to agenda
CF: Agenda item 3, Approval of minutes, Minutes are aproved and published
CF: Agenda Item 4, Action items
[dbooth]
Previous action items: http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/arch/2/05/30-minutes#new-ai
[hugo]
ACTION: Editors to remove the Draft status and clean up the wording of D-AR012.5 (fix the word "levels") [PENDING]
[dbooth]
Items done:
[[
]]
[hugo]
dbooth, we didn't see anything from you
[dbooth]
Evidentally I pasted too much and got disconnected.
[hima]
CF: Agenda Item 5, STatus report
[hugo]
Minutes: http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/cg/2/06/04-minutes
[hima]
CF: Talk about coordination between XMLP and WSD, Have two groups work on understanding each others effort.
[dbooth]
GlenD, Are you and TomJ calling from the DoubleTreeSJ again?
[hima]
CF: Also talked about joint F2F, this working group volunteer for maintaing message exchange
HH: Not sure about signing up this WG
[dbooth]
zakim, DoubleTreeSJ probably has GlenD, TomJ
[Zakim]
I don't understand 'DoubleTreeSJ probably has GlenD, TomJ', dbooth. Try /msg Zakim help
[hima]
HH: Signing up for this and not bother the WG
CF: NExt agenda item, F2F update
CF: Required reading for F2F, No telcon access, possible IRC access
DB: Hasn't heard about IRC access
CF: Feelings on no telcon access
CF: Issues is dialout from hosting facilities
DB: NO equipment and cost of dialing international, issue with no telcon
CF: ANy one else interested in attending by phone
About 6 people interested in dialing in
CF: Talk about distributing costs between participants
AB: may be able to look into providing telecon access
[dbooth]
ACTION: Abi to look into arranging a teleconf bridge located in France
[hima]
??: Any internet access
[chris]
ACTION 2=Abbie to look into arranging a teleconf bridge located in France
[hima]
CF: Not sure...
CF: David posted information about dinner.
JM: Question about working draft, 2 versions of arch reqs
JM: Look at 05 june 2002 version
AB: Editors draft, done
CF: Selected editors for arch document. Offered help.
AB: Atleast one editor from UC to be part of architecture editors
AB: Feels that will provide continuity from requirements document to arch.
Dave: Chris can do that.
CF will be the 4th editor
CF: Can someone on USTF give report from last weeks meeting
DaveO: Providing report. Lot of debate about different words like "sample applications", etc.
DaveO: PRoviding technical scenarios against business scenarios.
DaveO: Bulk of time on terminology. Not reviewed any of the usage scenarios.
CF: Any questions? None
SD: Reliability report. DAG007, possibly belongs to team goal. Do some sort of sanitization before that.
CF: ANy target dates?
SD: No
CF: Agenda item 6, Review of editors draft
CF: Required reading for F2F, requirements, glossary and uc
CF: couple of weeks after F2F publish the requirements documents, consensus with requirements document - show to folks
CF: Make some progress on document sent out by david. End of july to publish our documents. Need to make some significant progress.
SK: WIll security UC be talked about in F2F
CF: Time is running out and lot of work to do.
CF: Glossary is required reading.
CF: Link in email sent out by chris last night
CF: Requirement document has been updated to include all the discussion and concensus
CF: F2F Agenda review
[chris]
http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/arch/2/06/wsawg-f2f-jun2002
[hima]
CF: F2F Agenda is on the WG administrative site
CF: Will have an editors meeting on 11 th, joint meeting on 12th with WSD
[dbooth]
rrsagent, where am i?
[RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2002/06/06-ws-arch-irc#T20-18-21
[hima]
CF: Each chair will give direction for each group and followed by presentation by daveO about usage scenario
[dbooth]
zakim, who is here?
[Zakim]
I see +1.503.712.aaaa, Roger.Cutler, R.Radhika, DavidB, Mike.Brumbelow (muted), Radhika.Roy, Dougb?, Abbie, Hima, ??P16, ??P17, AlanD?, Prasad.Yendluri, ??P18, Chris.Ferris,
[hima]
CF: Review feedback received until noon tommorrow.
[Zakim]
... Francis.McCabe?, ??P25 (muted), Mario.Jeckle, Alex.Cheng, ??P29, ??P31, Igor.Sedukhin, ??P33, Bert, ??P34, M.Champion, ??P2, DoubleTreeSJ, Tim.Jones, +1.650.875.aaff, ??P27
Bert has Hugo
[hima]
CF: Action to review feedback received for WSD
CF: Action to send our URL to feedback
[dbooth]
ACTION: Chris to send out URL to feedback after the call.
[hima]
DaveO: Pick easy MEP and dive through one.
CF: Seems reasonable.
CF: Followed by review of glossary, publish this as working draft soon after
DaveO: Sent first draft out, Chris will put it.
Action for Chris: Put DaveO Arch document on CVS.
[dbooth]
ACTION: Chris to put DaveO Arch document on CVS
[hima]
CF: Thursday lunch, semantic web presentation, optional, possible demo
CF: Afternoon session, usage scnearios discussions, possible work out some details.
CF: Friday rough scoping of security WG
CF: Finish by doing minor admin stuff, etc.
DaveO: How many people there for entire day or saturday
CF: Add more to agenda if more people staying..
DaveO: Could take a look at Security portion of Arch document..
DaveO: Talk about security, not separated by document
DaveO: Don't have to separate dicussion about security in context of 4 documents.
DaveO: Pick 3 scenarios. What does this mean from glossary, what it means from usage perspective, what it means from architecture perspective, what it means from requirement perspective
AB: Can we comeup with one document.
CF: We aren't coming up with a security document.
CF: Next Agenda item.
CF: Bring closure to semantic web req AC009
CF: Someone had a counter proposal feeling that current didn't capture completely, Chris feels SW taking away from focus
Frank: Feels it's written in slightly negative way, Blvs there is another CSF - important to figure out what services they can use.
Frank: THis is not expressed anywhere in requirements doc. We are customers of output of semantic web initiative.
Frank: What it means to be aligned with semantic web??
CF: Feedback was that SW was put in a superior position compared to this group.
CF: After working on the req based on feedback, current statement was arrived at
EN: Should ensure that there is a compromise between 2 worlds
Frank: What is the CSF that has to do anything with SW?
DA: 1 political, 2 compatibility
DB: not really political, 2 things, use of URI and desire to make information machine understandable.
[Dave]
can we use the queue?
[chris]
yes
[hima]
Joe: Quite reasonable, promote machine-machine interaction, hoping that david booth will clarify
DaveO: Loosely coupled, We don't have to do lots for alignment with semantic web. TAG is not just for semantic web - not semantic web enforcement
Frank: OUtput of this WG should have a set of requirements for SW initiative
Frank: We need another CSF, services to be fully semantically describable
[chris]
web services are fully semantically describable
?
[hima]
DaveO: "Aligned" open of interpretation, from orig CSF
DB: "ALigned" intent was use of URI, and machine processable description
CF: Just pick a word and move on
DB: Aligned in following sense and list the 2 things.
DaveO: URI is a web thing and not a semantic thing.
HH: Not only political...
CF: Can we go with proposal that david, chris and Hugo came up with?
CF: Proposal listed in the agenda.....
CF: Anyone who cannot live with that? None
615456362856
CF: ANy objections to 4 & 5? No objections.
Done with meeting
[dbooth]
rrsagent, where am i?
[RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2002/06/06-ws-arch-irc#T21-02-57
[chris]
hk, r, ad, igor, fm, sg, hh, cf
do
what are we going to call these things?
[hugo]
RRSAgent, what actions?
[RRSAgent]
I see 4 action items:
ACTION: Editors to remove the Draft status and clean up the wording of D-AR012.5 (fix the word "levels") [PENDING] [1]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2002/06/06-ws-arch-irc#T19-47-07
ACTION: Abbie to look into arranging a teleconf bridge located in France [2]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2002/06/06-ws-arch-irc#T19-59-12
ACTION: Chris to send out URL to feedback after the call. [3]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2002/06/06-ws-arch-irc#T20-20-11
ACTION: Chris to put DaveO Arch document on CVS [4]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2002/06/06-ws-arch-irc#T20-24-11
[chris]
e.g. rational has use cases (high level) and path through that is called usage scenari
cf: can we pick some names and move on?
mj: not in favor of calling security a use scenario
if we choose these names, need to be explained
cf: chair sez that we will go with high-level=use case lower-level or instance/path=scenario
per roger clearly in the use case document
[frankmcca]
The UML reference manual:
[chris]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ws-arch/2002May/0246.html
hao: thought that original doc too technical/detailed, need high-level classifications
daveo: take use cases and put them in the use case doc, call it sect 0, when we get down to usage scenario (sec, reliability, messaging, etc.) we reference back to use case
hao: yes, that sounds reasonable
igor: says he put out email that added conceptual level/categorization e.g. intermediary which is neither technical nor business level
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-arch/2002May/0455.html
igor's proposal for business, conceptual and technical classification of use cases
do: is the notion of concept an attribute?
igor, would like to have classification
do: stock quote is use case
igor: want tree or list when click on and get list of use cases (or usage scenarios) that map to that
do: let's keep that in mind as we go forward
do: let's actually start working on these things
do: definitely something there
markh: typically 3 kinds of (in)formal relationships; incusion, generalization, extension
extension is more formal, take use case and add elements to it
mark: if we organize these things, use typical mechanisms
igor: discussed including all wsd use cases, only way to do that is take their doc and dump them in. doc becomes 600 pages of who knows what
do: scenarios doc already has ids
do: chose numbers or strings, don't care
igor: how do we assign these numbers?
do: went by what structure was in the document
[frankmcca]
Sorry, gotto go
[chris]
do: maybe bit of issue in terms of the ids
[Zakim]
WS_ArchWG()3:30PM has ended
[chris]
rrsagent, please excuse us

Roll

Present

Apple
Mike Brumbelow
AT&T
Ayse Dilber
BEA Systems     David Orchard
ChevronTexaco
Roger Cutler
Cisco Systems Inc       Sandeep Kumar
Computer Associates     Igor Sedukhin
CrossWeave, Inc.        Timothy Jones
DaimlerChrysler Mario Jeckle
Documentum
Don Robertson
Exodus/Digital Island   Joseph Hui
Fujitsu
Frank McCabe
Hewlett-Packard Company Yin-Leng Husband
Hewlett-Packard Company Zulah Eckert
IBM
Heather Kreger
Intel Corporation       Sharad Garg
IONA
Eric Newcomer
Ipedo
Alex Cheng
MartSoft Corp.  Jin Yu
Microsoft Corporation   Allen Brown  
Microsoft Corporation   Henrik Nielsen
MITRE Corporation       James Davenport
MITRE Corporation       Paul Denning
Nortel Networks Abbie Barbir
Oracle Corporation      Martin Chapman
Oracle Corporation      Jeff Mischkinsky
SeeBeyond Technology Corp       Alan Davies
Software AG     Michael Champion
Sterling Commerce(SBC)  Suresh Damodaran
Sun Microsystems, Inc.  Chris Ferris
Sun Microsystems, Inc.  Doug Bunting
Sybase, Inc.    Himagiri Mukkamala
The Thomson Corporation Hao He
W. W. Grainger, Inc.    Tom Carroll
W. W. Grainger, Inc.    Daniel Austin
W3C
Hugo Haas
W3C
David Booth
webMethods, Inc.        Prasad Yendluri

Regrets

Boeing Company  Gerald Edgar
Carnegie Mellon University      Katia Sycara
Ericsson
Nilo Mitra
IONA
Steve Vinoski
Ipedo
Srinivas Pandrangi
Nokia
Michael Mahan
Planetfred, Inc.        Mark Baker
Rogue Wave Software     David Noor
SAP
Sinisa Zimek
Systinet
Anne Thomas Manes
TIBCO Software, Inc.    Scott Vorthmann
T-Nova Deutsche Telekom Innovationsgesellschaft Jens Meinkoehn
Waveset Technologies    Darran Rolls

Absent

Artesia Technologies    Dipto Chakravarty
AT&T 
Mark Jones
Cisco Systems Inc       Krishna Sankar
Contivo
Dave Hollander
DaimlerChrysler Hans-Peter Steiert
DISA
Marcel Jemio
EDS
Mike Ballantyne  
EDS
Waqar Sadiq
France Telecom  Shishir Garg
IBM
Jim Knutson
Intalio Inc     Bob Lojek
Intel Corporation       Joel Munter
Macromedia
Glen Daniels
Macromedia
Tom Jordahl
MartSoft Corp.  Jun Chen
Rogue Wave Software     Patrick Thompson
Software AG     Nigel Hutchison
Sun Microsystems, Inc.  Mark Hapner
VeriSign, Inc.  Michael Mealling
XQRL Inc.       Tom Bradford
XQRL Inc.       Daniela Florescu