IRC log of wai-wcag on 2002-09-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

20:17:41 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
20:17:45 [Lalitha]
Stephane Maes
20:18:17 [luu]
Luu Tran
20:18:21 [Lalitha]
Lalitha Suryanarayana
20:18:33 [wendy]
loretta agrees to take minutes. i'll take some notes here, but primary minutes will be from loretta.
20:18:35 [Zakim]
-??P14
20:18:38 [chaalsNCE]
Charles McCathieNevile (no phone connection)
20:18:39 [wendy]
is anyone here only attending via irc?
20:18:50 [chaalsNCE]
me
20:19:01 [Rotan]
My line just went mad and dropped. Is everyone else still connected?
20:19:10 [bengt]
yes we hear it
20:19:11 [wendy]
yes. please try reconnecting rotan.
20:19:15 [mvittoria]
and me
20:19:33 [wendy]
irc only: cmn and Maurizio Vittoria
20:19:38 [Zakim]
+??P8
20:19:56 [Zakim]
+??P14
20:19:58 [wendy]
gv asks for additional agenda items.
20:20:21 [wendy]
zakim, ??P8 is Rotan Hanrahan
20:20:22 [Zakim]
I don't understand '??P8 is Rotan Hanrahan', wendy. Try /msg Zakim help
20:20:31 [wendy]
zakim, ??P8 is Rotan_Hanrahan
20:20:33 [Zakim]
+Rotan_Hanrahan; got it
20:20:43 [wendy]
zakim, ??P14 is Mat_Mirabella
20:20:44 [Zakim]
+Mat_Mirabella; got it
20:21:18 [wendy]
rg since this is our first joint mtg, 1st of all there are 2 pending docs that deserve comment: WCAG 2.0, authoring scenarios for DI
20:21:46 [wendy]
rg beyond that: sharing techniques, etc. and di work on possible guidelines and the overlap.
20:21:52 [chaalsNCE]
agenda+ introductions
20:22:05 [wendy]
rg some of the terminology will overlap.
20:23:05 [wendy]
gv yes, terminology is a good one. we should harmonize.
20:23:42 [Zakim]
+Charles
20:23:46 [wendy]
ag PFWG is interested in where something is a function of the technology that it is identified. particularly, gaps.
20:24:26 [chaalsNCE]
agenda+ terminology
20:24:40 [wendy]
ag we've looked at DI and multimodal. if they support each other, good for delivering accessible content. our expertise is in content. we want to work with you in the process.
20:25:04 [Zakim]
-Charles
20:25:15 [wendy]
gv natural synergy since the essence of accessibility is the ability to interact with wide variety of constraints.
20:25:25 [wendy]
gv dealing with the essentially same problem.
20:25:45 [wendy]
s/DIWG is dealing/dealing
20:27:09 [wendy]
agenda+ comments on authoring scenarios for device independence
20:27:16 [wendy]
agenda+ comments on device indie principles
20:27:21 [wendy]
agenda+ wcag 2.0 comments
20:27:23 [bazz]
bazz has joined #wai-wcag
20:27:27 [wendy]
zakim, take up agendum 5
20:27:28 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "wcag 2.0 comments" taken up [from wendy]
20:27:30 [Zakim]
+Charles_
20:28:24 [wendy]
rg hope that any DI solution should be able to conform to WCAG. Notes that JW went through WCAG 2.0 for checkpoints most relevant to DI.
20:28:27 [bazz]
Hi Wendy, Hi all... sorry for late participation... difficult connection this evening... :|
20:29:00 [wendy]
rg differences: your object is to produce guidelines for authors in general. ours: not only illustrating the problems in achieving delivery but looking at additional pieces needed to achieve that.
20:29:14 [wendy]
rg overlap then greatest with protocol and formats.
20:29:32 [Zakim]
-Charles_
20:29:47 [wendy]
rg my take on WCAG 2.0 is great. no place where disagreement. the terminology is only issue - want to avoid confusion.
20:30:51 [wendy]
gv yes, if in the future have two sets of guidelines with diff terminology be very confusing for authors.
20:31:04 [wendy]
rg not intent right now to produce guidelines. underlying techniques are not there.
20:31:39 [wendy]
rg to adapt for a device, need to know about the device. currently not a piece of tech (cc/pp on the right track but not there) but no way to get capabilities of device so can adapt.
20:32:23 [wendy]
gv one step aside: NCITS V2 work on remote consoles that is creating interface descriptions (interface need descriptions) where a service would explain what it needs but not provide an interface.
20:32:33 [MattSEA]
MattSEA has joined #wai-wcag
20:32:35 [wendy]
gv UA would build an interface that mets the prefs of the user.
20:32:40 [wendy]
s/mets/meets
20:32:56 [Al]
NCITS V2 --> INCITS V2 (they changed name)
20:33:43 [wendy]
gz upcoming workshop
20:34:20 [wendy]
rg i talked with gz at www2002. agree something we should understand. a deep difference where adaptation take place:
20:34:47 [wendy]
rg emphasis on server (although not exclusively). that puts a diff emphasis on technical requirements for adaptation.
20:35:15 [wendy]
rg we're probably strugglin with (diprinciples tried) to separate principles from implementation - where adaptation might take place.
20:35:39 [wendy]
rg clearly there will be a diff between what done locally (e.g. ua in a phone) or on server or intermediary.
20:36:08 [wendy]
gv wcag is wrestling w/same issue. we talk about client, server, and intermediaries.
20:36:25 [wendy]
gv trying in wcag 2.0 so that it discusses how to do w/out specifying how it is done.
20:37:56 [wendy]
jw an issue of how server-side solutions effect conformance.
20:40:09 [wendy]
wac will diwg produce techniques and examples of what is described in authoring scenraios?
20:40:53 [wendy]
rg yes. see our charter. 1. produce auth. scen. doc. 2. workshop 3. produce auth tech doc to capture a selection of the techniques currently being used or could be.
20:41:19 [wendy]
rg hopefully also accessibility. if already work on techniques, don't want to duplicate that. great to contributing to general tech doc.
20:41:34 [wendy]
cs we've been working on schema for working on techniques, rather than a document, but a data repository.
20:43:24 [wendy]
wac could create a general w3c repository, e.g. svg also thinking about authoring techniques for svg.
20:43:44 [wendy]
rg rotan and others working on scenarios. way to pool those?
20:43:55 [Rotan]
See: http://www.w3.org/2001/di/Group/Scenarios/
20:44:02 [MattSEA]
q+
20:44:36 [wendy]
gv could be a case study. people ask, "how do you do design this so that on my site and avialble to pdas?" get issues and solutions.
20:45:14 [wendy]
rotan in authoring scenarios section 4.3.1 and .2, some scenarios that need to be addressed by authors.
20:45:38 [wendy]
rotan these help people understand issues of DI, impact on delivery, user experience, etc.
20:45:49 [wendy]
matt - don't think gv is watching q here. please speak when you can.
20:47:08 [chaalsNCE]
q+ to note that there is a similar document being produced by WAI EO group - how people with disabilities use the web.
20:47:13 [wendy]
cs we haven't done that officially. we talked about diff users and use case scnearios.
20:48:10 [bengt]
muted?
20:48:59 [wendy]
matt may techniques schema: i can see a use for its use across guidelines documents in WAI, DI, and other docs that don't have firm "rules" - so don't work well with xmlspec dtd.
20:49:15 [wendy]
matt may - the tech dtd is as generic as possible so can be used broadly.
20:49:34 [wendy]
cmn are you on the phone?
20:49:47 [chaalsNCE]
No. Could not hear.
20:49:54 [wendy]
ok. i'll proxy your ocmment.
20:50:04 [rgimson]
can someone post a link to techniques schema?
20:51:45 [wendy]
techniques schema: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/wcagtech020809.dtd
20:51:56 [rgimson]
thanks
20:51:59 [wendy]
our work on techniques at: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wcag20.html#techs
20:52:16 [wendy]
example of xml: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/2002/08/css-tech.xml
20:52:23 [wendy]
still needs lots of work.
20:54:30 [wendy]
xslt to transform to html: hmmm...don't see it published publicly...i'll make sure it gets up there.
20:55:45 [wendy]
ack MattSEA
20:55:50 [wendy]
ack ChaalsNCE
20:55:50 [Zakim]
ChaalsNCE, you wanted to note that there is a similar document being produced by WAI EO group - how people with disabilities use the web.
20:56:51 [wendy]
wac made cmn's point. wondered if cs meant that wcag had not considered those scenarios or if eo hadn't considered all user scnearios or if missing authoring scenarios. cs said hadn't read eo doc.
20:58:26 [wendy]
gv subtle issue in di principles. critical piece not defined: when talking about independent, mean that when work on diff agents idea of what sets or combos of constraints should be in universe that i should look for? olfactory only likely not possible, but others are not.
20:58:44 [wendy]
gv people often think something device indie if work with 2 or 3 devices.
20:58:55 [Rotan]
Sniff :-(
20:59:18 [wendy]
rg you spotted where the principles go so far then stop. i don't think we have the understanding to produce a more complete/exhaustive list of what constraints will be.
20:59:48 [Zakim]
- +1.425.614.aagg
21:00:22 [Zakim]
-??P9
21:00:30 [wendy]
rg a hard problem. recently, bert bos looking at diff between aural media type and speech (in css). a deep issue of what the modality are being talked bout.
21:00:35 [wendy]
s/bout/about
21:00:44 [wendy]
s/modality/modalities
21:01:22 [wendy]
rg great if we can jointly pursue some of these issues.
21:02:38 [wendy]
gv interesting to have a subgroup that explored that question: what are the dimensions of interface? can't have keyboard-only and olfactory-only. what are the dimensions, categories, etc.
21:02:52 [Al]
CSS question (Member only) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-html-cg/2002JulSep/thread.html#79
21:03:08 [wendy]
jw useful to explore. in WCAG WD is breaks up the process
21:03:10 [wendy]
zakim, who's talking?
21:03:21 [Zakim]
wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P3 (89%), ??P5 (10%), ??P10 (4%), -see-2001-07-23T12:56Z-,... (10%), ??P12 (9%)
21:04:21 [wendy]
jw useful for scnearios and to make sure we have covered every possibility and that they are all documented.
21:04:48 [wendy]
agenda?
21:05:20 [wendy]
jw concrete proposals to carry forward from this meeting?
21:06:47 [Zakim]
- +1.203.794.aahh
21:06:52 [wendy]
wac describes proposal for using mailing lists w3c-wai-gl for wcag comments, www-di for di comments, wai-xtech for general discussion.
21:07:04 [wendy]
rg gather list of names of people interested in shared issues
21:07:30 [wendy]
rg if we take user scnearios forward, then people interested can be informed.
21:07:57 [wendy]
rg nothing formal, but a way fo rpeople with common interests to share them.
21:08:12 [wendy]
rg perhaps use wai-xtech list try to identify the topics we think we should collaborate on.
21:08:44 [wendy]
rg perhaps that will lead to people volunteering for topics.
21:09:19 [wendy]
ack chaalsNCE
21:09:20 [Zakim]
ChaalsNCE, you wanted to note that one scenarion for multi-modality is using two agents at the same time (e.g. voice via telephone and a palmtop)
21:10:11 [wendy]
jw agree w/rg. compile a list of topics and move forward on each of them.
21:11:00 [wendy]
rotan - re: scenarios repository - it is individual records to describe devices, usage scnearios, etc. expect it could be successful if it has >=100 records.
21:11:26 [wendy]
rotan can contribute record w/out providing full scenario. describe the user, then someone else can construct a scenario that uses that user.
21:11:38 [wendy]
rotan when a new record added, it handles x-referencing.
21:12:10 [wendy]
rotan could stimulate debate about how well issues are addressed.
21:13:45 [wendy]
gv start w/list of features already have in mind. we can post to list and get feedback about additional dimensions.
21:15:01 [wendy]
jw relationship between terminology. WAI has a glossary under development. developed through the xtech mailing list.
21:15:19 [wendy]
glossary: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/Glossary/printable.html
21:15:59 [wendy]
jw goal is to harmonize language and definitions among wai guidelines documents. wcag wg is steward of it.
21:16:22 [wendy]
jw in developing wcag 2.0, discussion of concepts, terminology, etc with desire to promote clarity.
21:17:49 [wendy]
rg if we can extract your defintions when referred to in our doc, that would be great.
21:18:48 [wendy]
rg good to move twards a common glossary.
21:19:32 [wendy]
jw that's the general intent - terms can be extracted or links be created, etc. There's been some discussion (or interest shown) regarding the glossary project.
21:20:01 [MattSEA]
zakim, who's here?
21:20:02 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P5, ??P3, ??P4, ??P6, +1.408.536.aaff, -see-2001-07-23T12:56Z-,..., ??P10, ??P12, Al_Gilman, ??P16, ??P18, ??P20, Wendy, MattSEA, Paul_Bohman, Rotan_Hanrahan,
21:20:04 [Zakim]
... Mat_Mirabella
21:20:05 [Zakim]
On IRC I see MattSEA, bazz, RRSAgent, shlomit, GVan, andi, luu, rgimson, Lalitha, chaalsNCE, Ben, Zakim, bengt, Al, Rotan, mvittoria, wendy
21:20:11 [MattSEA]
zakim, mute me
21:20:12 [Zakim]
MattSEA should now be muted
21:20:25 [wendy]
rotan easy to modify the di repository scenario to include links to glossary. in best of interest of user to go to other directions? e.g. defn of pda, and part of our repository. it could link to pda scenarios.
21:21:23 [wendy]
ack chaalsNCE
21:21:24 [Zakim]
ChaalsNCE, you wanted to note that the QA activity has put some cycles into this
21:21:57 [wendy]
wac notes that if QA, DI, and WAI all have interest glossary, perhaps take to w3m as joint w3c effort.
21:22:17 [Zakim]
-??P10
21:22:43 [wendy]
rotan notes that could programatically generate what forward linking would look like.
21:24:46 [olivier]
olivier has joined #wai-wcag
21:25:03 [wendy]
ag missed
21:25:11 [wendy]
jw cs, wac - authoring scenarios?
21:25:47 [wendy]
cs lots of overlap. suspect our techniques for doing multiple tailored version will be same as muti-modal sites. except output formats might be slightly diff.
21:26:14 [wendy]
jw introduced most of issues where overlap.
21:26:18 [Al]
AG: Priority: caputure the 'surprises' e.g. how breadcrumb trail recitation order flips between screen and voice, PWD with fat client, not tiny client.
21:26:33 [Al]
Expect to have more focused ideas after workshop
21:26:39 [wendy]
action jw: write list of issues to investigate, as place to start (in reaction to rg's comment)
21:26:46 [wendy]
thx ag
21:27:05 [wendy]
cs many wcag folks live in seattle, anyone from di who lives here?
21:27:13 [wendy]
none
21:27:23 [wendy]
rg di is pretty distributed.
21:28:13 [wendy]
rg highlight 4 topics for collaboration: 1. user scenarios and rotan's repository
21:28:27 [wendy]
rg 2. general set of authoring scenarios
21:28:36 [wendy]
rg 3. terminology, esp the possibility of sharing a glossary
21:28:54 [wendy]
rg 4. authoring techniques
21:29:28 [chaalsNCE]
ACTION: Jason write list of issues to investigate, as place to start, in reaction to Roger Gimson's comments
21:29:41 [wendy]
jw i had the same list.
21:29:54 [wendy]
thx
21:30:56 [Zakim]
-Paul_Bohman
21:30:58 [Zakim]
-??P5
21:30:58 [wendy]
gv goodbye and good night.
21:31:11 [Zakim]
-??P20
21:31:20 [Zakim]
--see-2001-07-23T12:56Z-,...
21:31:27 [chaalsNCE]
rrsagent, bye
21:31:27 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item:
21:31:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jason write list of issues to investigate, as place to start, in reaction to Roger Gimson's comments [1]
21:31:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/12-wai-wcag-irc#T21-29-28