W3C WebOnt Working Group IRC logs for 2002-01-15

These are the automatically generated logs from the W3C WebOnt Working Group IRC chat

Dave Beckett

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Topic now WebOnt ftf, NJ http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/ftf1.html

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Topic now WebOnt ftf, NJ http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/ftf1.html

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Topic now WebOnt ftf, NJ http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/ftf1.html

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[14:09:07] DanC

===== day 2 gets started

[14:09:13] DanC

... ideas on next ftf

[14:09:25] DanC

one option: Eu late april.

[14:09:31] DanC

another option: Hawaii in May

[14:10:23] DanC

Feb tech plenary is too soon for a ftf WG meeting, but you're welcome to come to the RDF/Semantic Web IG meeting there.

[14:11:20] nmg

EU meeting would be colocated with KR2002 - http://www.kr.org/kr/kr02/

[14:12:06] nmg

(which itself is colocated with DL2002 - http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/dl2002/)

[14:13:54] jdale

Fujitsu could still offer to host it in northern california

[14:15:13] nmg

Mike Dean's slides:

[14:15:15] nmg

http://www.daml.org/2002/01/experiences/

[14:17:05] DanC

A:why does reflexe cause complexity problem?

[14:17:12] DanC

er.. Q: why...

[14:17:25] DanC

A: because it breaks the tree... [?]

[14:20:20] DanC

===== DAML Experience reports, Mike Dean

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Mike Dean presents from "DAML+OIL Issues and Experiences" http://www.daml.org/2002/01/experiences/

[14:22:33] DanC

Q: "frame orientation"... what does that mean?

[14:23:04] DanC

A:chunking is part of it... in DAML+OIL, there's no way to say "this chunk is my definition of this class"

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A:also, unnamed classes and class expressions are a different way of thinking

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[14:24:33] DanC

A:to some extent, we've built tools that make DAML+OIL look like a frame system, but there are some language issues that break the illusion

[14:28:05] DanC

Q:don't frame systems usually include defaults and such non-monotonic stuff?

[14:29:19] DanC

A:so let's apply the 80/20 rule: take the stuff from frame systems that's really useful and easy...

[14:31:16] DanC

DebM: I've done DL research for a long time and I now have all these frame editors... I just see them as interfaces to DL systems where it's inconvenient to make defined classes.

[14:31:41] DanC

[...scribe isn't sure where we're headed and what to capture...]

[14:35:10] DanC

[a few]: It seems like there should be more stuff in the language to capture higher-level idioms corresponding to frames etc.

[14:37:58] DanC

[... UML syntax/idioms are also part of the discussion...]

[14:42:15] DanC

Chair: there are at least two different user communities, and we should be aware of the needs (including documentation, ...) of the various communities

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[14:43:12] DanC

IanH: I heard a consensus around extra-logical features to support grouping of properties with classes and such.

[14:43:36] DeborahMcGuinness

i just got on sorry - one note for the scribe is to do meta tagging for properties associated with term definitions

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[14:46:30] DanC

folks are welcome to discuss in a break, send proposals, etc.

[14:53:17] DanC

JimH: let's be very careful about saying "our language can express that; we don't need to add it"... even though UnambiguousProperty is expressible in terms of cardinality constraints, that wouldn't make UnambiguousProperty visible to users

[14:58:59] DanC

as MikeD gets to rules...

[15:00:31] DanC

Chair clarifies our charter w.r.t. rules: it's recognized that rules are needed in the Semantic Web, but ontologies are speparable, and there's more consensus on the technical design at the ontology level

[15:01:29] DanC

there are other fora (www-rdf-rules, RDF IG ftf in Feb, ...) to discuss rules.

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logger, pointer?

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logger_2, pointer?

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See http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/webont/2002-01-15#T15-36-05

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===== reconvene after lunch

[18:12:22] DanC

new agenda (ftf-2002/slide1-2.html on hendler's machine)

[18:12:45] DanC

hot topics: Decidability, RDF compatibility [aka layering]

[18:15:29] DanC

=== next meeting

[18:15:40] DanC

option: 25/26 Mar, Europe

[18:15:49] DanC

option: 1-2 April US East

[18:15:57] DanC

option: 8-9 April. US East

[18:16:39] DanC

most likely seems to be 25/26 Mar in Amsterdam

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===== Requirements editors

[18:17:58] DanC

Hefflin have volunteered to co-edit

[18:18:07] DanC

Jonathan and Rafael volunteer too.

[18:18:59] DanC

[JimH starts editing REQUIREMENTS list in a text editor]

[18:19:17] DanC

-- Collection management

[18:19:57] DanC

archtypical use cases: (a) collection of web pages in a web site. (b) homogeneous collection: art, etc. (c) documents around a physical artifact; e.g. an engineering design for [an aircraft?]

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[18:23:17] DanC

not a requirement: more complex constraints than range constraints on datatypes

[18:25:15] DanC

[4 requirements on the board]

[18:25:59] DanC

MikeD on "content interoperability"

[18:26:12] DanC

top use cases: travel planning/[agency?]

[18:26:17] DanC

^1

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2. ontoweb portal

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-- Decker, web services

[18:32:13] DanC

use case: ubiquitous computing: small devices, mutual authentication, ...

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ACTION Hefflin, Nick G., Rafael V.: to draft a requirements document by end of jan.

[19:36:37] DanC

oops...

[19:36:47] DanC

ACTION Hefflin, Jonathan D., Rafael V.: to draft a requirements document by end of jan.

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NOTE: official publication rules: http://www.w3.org/Guide/pubrules

[19:41:48] DanC

ACTION JimH: send table of requirements from discussion before that break

[19:41:59] DanC

[resume from break]

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finin will scribe

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discussion on decidability as a requirement

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how important is it?

[19:49:08] TimFinin

what's the cost of decidabiltyu? danc: costs include ruling some features in and some features out

[19:49:57] TimFinin

fvh: what are the reasoning tasks that ppl want to do? it is for thoise tasks that we have to ask about decidability

[19:50:29] TimFinin

jimh: for daml+oil, decidability was a critereon when evaluating a proposed feature.

[19:50:52] TimFinin

jimh: we are now addressing a large community.

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jimh: some subcommunities need a richer representation and don't need some reasoning features, like subsumption

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danc: can anyone speak to the reasoning tasks that have to be decidable?

[19:54:48] TimFinin

jimh and ih: were really talking about computability

[19:55:57] TimFinin

ih: subsumption checking is needed by ppl who are building large ontologies with multiple authors.

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lh: for example, i'm working with users who are trying to build ontologies for genomics

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danh: is it unaceptable if the reasoning is incomplete?

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ih: it depends

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jeramy: suggests that we might have decisbility as a requirement for OWL 1.0. we can relax it later.

[19:59:11] TimFinin

gus: I have one use case involving matching descriptions of stolen art objects

[19:59:37] TimFinin

the use case could go either way -- using subsumption or something less.

[20:02:05] TimFinin

jimh: the NCI uses two tools to build ontologies -- a DL like system and a more proceedural system. they seem to need both.

[20:04:32] TimFinin

tf: worse is better

[20:05:08] TimFinin

fvh: you can still write useful tools to do things even if the language is undecidable.

[20:05:50] TimFinin

jimh: I'm hearing efficiency as a goal, but not a strict reaquirement.

[20:07:23] TimFinin

pfps: those of us who have to build a reasoner to handle the language know how to do some things but not others.

[20:09:06] TimFinin

pfps: two examples of communities who want subsumption: (1) medical informatics people with lots of data (2) trael services.

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tim finin is now using danc's machinr

[20:16:53] DanC

pfps: we need an entailment reasoner.

[20:17:58] DanC

jimh is looking for the right descriptive term for the reasoner we want.

[20:18:09] DanC

ih suggests "class consistancy reasoner"

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[20:19:17] DanC

ian and frank are delegated the task to come up with the descriptive adj for the reasoner.

[20:19:44] DanC

the next period will cover the discussion of rdf compatibility.

[20:20:27] DanC

jimh: pfps described five attributes (babies) all of which together cause problems. which to throw out?

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[20:23:28] DanC

reconstucting peter's presentation from yesterday, there are three possibilities.

[20:23:49] DanC

(1) a syntactic embedding of owl into rdfs

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(2) owl has syntactic features that go beyond rdfs

[20:28:25] DanC

(3) owl is syntactically like rdfs but has different semantics

[20:35:59] DanC

a fourth possibility is peter's owl', in which owl' is a semantic restriction of a syntactic restriction of rdfs

[20:36:02] DanC

danc does a staw poll on the three suggestions.

[20:36:12] DanC

option (1) had eight people who liked it and 1 who found it unattractive

[20:36:14] DanC

(2) had two who liked it and 2 who disliked it

[20:36:22] DanC

(3) had one who liked it and 7 who disliked it.

[20:43:04] DanC

discussion of the tbl layer cake. danc says that tbl's vision is for option (3).

[20:43:05] ora

I am wondering whether DAML+OIL is considered like option #2 even though the syntactic incompatibilities are within the standard RDF syntax extension framework

[20:43:16] DanC

jimh: were running out of time and patience.

[20:47:53] DanC

the babies: meta-modelling; negation; entailment; extra syntax

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[20:58:07] DanC

now lets discuss the use cases that make each of the possibilities bad

[20:59:53] DanC

for (1) owl and rdfs produce overlaping sents of sentences. this means that we may need to know whether a document

[21:00:05] DanC

was intended to be processed via owl or rdfs.

[21:02:33] DanC

how will we go forward on this issue?

[21:03:30] DanC

it's proposed that several people go off and write a document describing the options, what the problems are and what's needed to fix the problems.

[21:04:56] DanC

pfps and dieter are likely candidates

[21:07:46] DanC

mike smith has been volunteered and his weak objections easily overcome by collective pressure.

[21:08:18] DanC

ACTION PeterPS, Dieter, Mike Smith: write up layering issues

[21:08:51] DanC

by end of JAn

[21:09:23] DanC

ziv helmond has been added to the group.

[21:11:32] DanC

jimh is concerned that we don't have a process in place for beginning to write down the specification

[21:12:39] DanC

danc suggests starting ith a tutorial type document. a cookbook. written in prose with lots of examples.

[21:15:59] DanC

jimh suggests we look at how daml+oil reflects the requirements that we've generated in this f2f meeting

[21:16:53] DanC

danc is willing to try to do this.

[21:17:17] DanC

jimh believes that Ian should be in the loop on this and ian concures.

[21:19:31] DanC

ACTION: danc Ian and mike Smith will work on a document which evaluates how well daml+oil meets the owl requirements as identified at this f2f meeting

[21:22:05] DanC

jimh thinks we may be about done.

[21:23:04] DanC

jimh three action items: (1) requirements document (2) owl write up on layering issues and (3) mapping of requirments to daml+oil.

[21:23:37] DanC

immediate action item: plan meetings for next year?

[21:23:54] DanC

ACTION deadline for document #3 is January 31, 2002.

[21:28:51] DanC

we're looking at the calendar for 2002 and talking about when to have upcoming meetings.

[21:29:09] DanC

we're anticipating having a meeting every three months or so.

[21:40:57] DanC

some suggestions for f2f meetings: #2 on March 25-26, #3 just before iswc june 6-7

[21:42:07] DanC

meeting 33 might bein late sept or early october.

[21:44:01] DanC

meetings #2 and #3 look like europe (amsterdam for 2 and sardinia for 3) so meeting four might be in the US in october

[21:50:52] DanC

Now it's suggested that we hold f2f #2 april 8-9 in the us east coast in conjunction with the semantic web related meeting in Atlanta

[21:51:32] DanC

ACTION JimH: send ftf schedule proposal

[21:52:23] DanC

moved to ajourn. seconded.

[21:52:37] DanC

eof

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Provided by Dave Beckett, Institute for Learning and Research Technology, University of Bristol