13:28 |
logger |
JOIN |
13:29 |
hugo |
JOIN |
13:30 |
hugo |
hi |
13:30 |
maxf |
hi hugo |
13:30 |
|
hugo looks for the phone number |
13:30 |
Ian |
PART Ian |
13:30 |
SusanL |
hmm, no answer at longfellow |
13:30 |
Ian |
JOIN |
13:30 |
janet |
busy signal |
13:31 |
janet |
I hope we don't have a replay of yesterday's phone service at the AB |
13:31 |
|
hugo finds the phone number |
13:31 |
hugo |
TOPIC: Phone number: +1-617-252-1038 |
13:31 |
janet |
+1 617 252 1038 |
13:31 |
Ian |
TOPIC: Spec production tools meeting (Phone number: +1-617-252-1038) |
13:32 |
janet |
ringing! |
13:32 |
SusanL |
connection! |
13:33 |
Ian |
+Patrick Ion, Paul Grosso, Janet |
13:33 |
maxf |
+max |
13:33 |
Ian |
+Ian, Norm Walsh, Max Froumentin, Hugo Haas, Philippe Le Hegaret, Eve Maler |
13:34 |
Ian |
+Susan Lesch |
13:35 |
Ian |
-------------- |
13:35 |
Ian |
Agenda requests? |
13:36 |
Ian |
PG: If we're publishing xml in html, what's the policy for getting files in the right place, ensuring content negotiation works, etc. |
13:36 |
Ian |
...this came up in publishing XML 1.2 second edition. |
13:36 |
Ian |
(some naming issues, etc.) |
13:37 |
Ian |
HH: In addition to naming convention, we wanted to so something cleaner, didn't know how to do with apach. |
13:37 |
Ian |
apache. |
13:37 |
Ian |
PG: We should share what we know. |
13:37 |
Ian |
EM: Yes, what are the steps to publish something in XML. |
13:38 |
Ian |
PI: Math WG has ultimately some xml sources and xsl conversion to html which we offer to publication. |
13:38 |
Ian |
PG: There are two subcases: |
13:38 |
Ian |
a) Using XML source to generate HTML and publish the HTML results. |
13:38 |
Ian |
b) Publishing XML. |
13:38 |
Ian |
Issue: Default style sheet for XMLSpec DTD. |
13:38 |
Ian |
+Karl Best |
13:39 |
Ian |
--------------- |
13:39 |
Ian |
Top needs: |
13:40 |
Ian |
------------- |
13:40 |
Ian |
IJ: What's the hardest thing to do today in getting a doc to the TR page? |
13:40 |
Ian |
EM: I maintain the XMLSpec DTD and edit a couple of specs. |
13:41 |
Ian |
...authoring XMLSpec is pretty trivial since I use Epic to edit. It's also easy to generate html from xml with xslt. WHat's hard: the style sheet at the end works with the document and pubrules requirements. |
13:41 |
Ian |
SO |
13:41 |
Ian |
a) Blessed TR style sheet |
13:41 |
Ian |
b) Chain validation tools. |
13:43 |
Ian |
IJ: Announcement of comma tools. |
13:43 |
Ian |
HH: ,validate and ,checklink and ,rchecklink and ,cssvalidate |
13:43 |
Ian |
IJ: Can we have a comma tool that does all of those? |
13:44 |
Ian |
HH: Not sure. |
13:44 |
Ian |
PL: DOM WG using XML source and its own set of tools to generate the HTML. |
13:45 |
Ian |
...we use tcl scripts based on "cost" for DOM Level 1. Now we are using DOM scripts (in Java). |
13:45 |
Ian |
...we use XMLSpec DTD but it doesn't meet all of our needs. |
13:45 |
Ian |
...we are generating binding information in scripts. |
13:46 |
Ian |
...we will need in the future to extend the XMLSpec DTD to include information in the source, and not in scripts. |
13:46 |
Ian |
...I think that this is the same for everyone for something like a copyright (need to include in sources, not produce by script). |
13:47 |
Ian |
IJ: Issue: extensibility of DTD and processing. |
13:47 |
Ian |
PLH: I'd prefer not to have extensibility, but would like a formal process for getting something in the DTD. |
13:47 |
Ian |
...that way you can use one set of tools to generate everyone's documents. |
13:48 |
Ian |
+Arnaud |
13:48 |
Ian |
PI: You've worked with David Carlisle to extend the DTD for MathML. I suspect that there are special requirements for the Math spec. |
13:48 |
Ian |
EM: I think that in general people will want to extend the DTD for their specific needs. |
13:49 |
Ian |
IJ: Issue: core DTD? |
13:49 |
Ian |
EM: Some of the DOM IDL stuff is specific enough that it seems like it should be part of the DOM DTD. |
13:49 |
Ian |
PLH: But interfaces are created by other WGs. |
13:49 |
Ian |
EM: Formal revision process + extensibility seem necessary. |
13:50 |
Ian |
NW: Reasonable way forward is to approach this as a parallel standardization: have a core DTD + style sheet. |
13:50 |
Ian |
..when you want to propose an extension, some group reviews the proposal and helps them extend it for their needs. |
13:51 |
Ian |
IJ: How to decentralize this? |
13:51 |
Ian |
...schemas? |
13:52 |
Ian |
PG: I'd rather people avoid extending where possible. If they're using XML as a database (case a above), that's one thing. But if they're using XML to publish directly, then avoid extensions. |
13:52 |
Ian |
EM: Right now there are strict rules about what can get published (http://www.w3.org/Guide/pubrules). |
13:53 |
Ian |
...using a single XML DTD could be seen in service of meeting those draconian rules. |
13:53 |
Philippe |
JOIN |
13:53 |
Ian |
..late binding of pubrules vs. early bindings. |
13:54 |
Ian |
------------- |
13:54 |
Ian |
EM: Karl Best invited for possible coordination and hearing needs from other consumers. |
13:55 |
Ian |
...might also be useful for an IETF person to attend, contribute. |
13:55 |
Ian |
JD: The IETF process has tight constraints. |
13:56 |
Ian |
EM: Refer to RFC 2629 |
13:57 |
Ian |
...don't want to lump in everyone's needs into one DTD, but coordination, possibly on a core, would be useful. |
13:57 |
Ian |
--- |
13:58 |
Ian |
Outputs and Printing? |
13:58 |
Ian |
EM: I've only been publishing in XML and HTML. PDF would be nice. |
13:58 |
Ian |
NW: W3C needs to get tools to do XMLSpec to PDF. |
13:58 |
Ian |
MF: I'm currently working on adapting XMLspec style sheet to write formatting objects. |
13:58 |
Ian |
...But XSLT-to-FOP converters not perfect yet. |
13:59 |
Ian |
NW: Bottleneck today is FO-to-PDF. |
13:59 |
Ian |
PI: The MathML spec is greater than 10 pages....(about 500). |
13:59 |
Ian |
...it also includes MathML. It includes TeX code to provide printed examples. |
14:00 |
Ian |
...xslt style sheets produce TeX code and the whole thing is sent through PDFTeX. |
14:00 |
Ian |
...this is not the obvious paradigm for everyone. |
14:01 |
Ian |
IJ: We use html2ps to get ps, ps2pdf. |
14:02 |
Ian |
EM: Don't forget chunked HTMl output v. single file. |
14:02 |
Ian |
IJ: And zip/gzipped tar. |
14:02 |
Ian |
PLH: For DOM, we generate several files (around 50). |
14:04 |
Ian |
NW: One answer for offline reading: provide both versions on the Web (one great big huge file and just chapter three). |
14:04 |
Ian |
PLH: Regarding the DOM: I generate the spec in 7 files, and use a script to concat the files into one. Using Netscape, I generate a text version. |
14:05 |
Ian |
(And I generate PDF and PS from the single HTML file). |
14:05 |
Ian |
Tools: |
14:05 |
Ian |
1) TeX |
14:05 |
Ian |
2) Comma tools |
14:05 |
Ian |
3) Ad hoc perl scripts. |
14:06 |
Ian |
4) MF: I've modified the XMLSpec style sheet to make it generate several files. |
14:06 |
Ian |
5) PG: I use ArborText / Epic editor. Does publishing, generates PS. |
14:07 |
Ian |
(can be distilled into PDF). |
14:07 |
Ian |
ALH: The XML Project has a tool called FOP that generates PDF based on XSL FO. We use it for the XML apache project. We have an intern working on generating a book. Very cool. |
14:08 |
Ian |
...If we have a tool that generates PDF, then PS is a given. |
14:09 |
Ian |
NW: Is that work in the FOP CVS repository. |
14:09 |
Ian |
ALH: Yes. |
14:09 |
Ian |
NW: If the FOP converter is coming along, the PS issue becomes irrelevant. |
14:10 |
Ian |
NW: PassiveTeX, FOP-XSLT, Epic give you FO to PDF. |
14:11 |
Ian |
MF: I'm using FOP. The problem I have is the 10-page limit. |
14:11 |
Ian |
NW: I haven't had this problem. |
14:11 |
Ian |
MF: Java runs out of memory for more than 10 pages. |
14:11 |
Ian |
------------------ |
14:12 |
Ian |
XMLSpec to XHTML conversion. |
14:12 |
Ian |
XHTML to XMLSpec. |
14:12 |
Ian |
XMLSpec to PDF (through FOs). |
14:12 |
Ian |
EM: One-time conversion from XHTML to XMLSpec for those who want to use XMLSpec regularly. |
14:13 |
Ian |
...your conversion strategy would differ depending on what your goal is (one time v. every time). |
14:14 |
Ian |
...how close to automatic do you want to be? |
14:14 |
Ian |
...my advice is to optimize for one-time conversion. |
14:14 |
Ian |
IJ: How many people here need to continue to author in HTML? |
14:14 |
Ian |
(no answers) :-) |
14:14 |
Ian |
JD: We do have other feedback from other document editors about the difficulty finding HTML tools. |
14:15 |
Ian |
PI: Great chunks of the MathML specs are being edited in XML. |
14:15 |
Ian |
+Eduardo Gutentag. |
14:15 |
Ian |
EM: Mention "xed" : syntax-directed XML editor (not necessarily validator). |
14:16 |
Ian |
...if people are complaining about html tools, moving to XML might be easier. |
14:16 |
Ian |
NW: I'll make available xed port for Linux soon. |
14:16 |
Ian |
EG: I want a visual xsl editor. |
14:17 |
Ian |
Available xslt processors? |
14:17 |
Ian |
EM: xt will not be maintained. |
14:17 |
Ian |
EG: xalan (xml.apache.org) |
14:17 |
Ian |
NW: There are a few dozen tools. |
14:17 |
Ian |
EG: Oracle one. |
14:18 |
Philippe |
Ian: http://xml.apache.org/xalan/index.html |
14:18 |
Ian |
IJ: Are these available from xsl home page? |
14:18 |
Ian |
EG: No. |
14:18 |
Ian |
EM: Refer Dave Pawson home page. |
14:18 |
Ian |
----------- |
14:18 |
Ian |
EM: My biggest concern is to come up with a canonical style sheet. |
14:19 |
Ian |
(for XMLspec direct publication). |
14:19 |
Ian |
NW: Along those lines, we have 3-4 XMLSpec style sheet developments in paralle. |
14:19 |
Ian |
...I think that we should get these into CVS and harmonize efforts. |
14:20 |
Ian |
EM: There are cvs repositories for style sheet and xmlspec. |
14:20 |
Ian |
/XML/1998/06 you will find everything. |
14:22 |
Ian |
IJ: Editors' page. |
14:22 |
Ian |
(within the Guide) |
14:22 |
Ian |
EM: Yes, collect wisdom there. |
14:22 |
Ian |
IJ: comma tools. |
14:22 |
Ian |
Action IJ: I would accept an action to get a page in order. |
14:23 |
Philippe |
DOM: http://www.w3.org/DOM/Group/ednotes.html |
14:23 |
Ian |
------- |
14:23 |
Ian |
Janet: I can talk to w3m about getting resources for tracking publication tasks. |
14:24 |
Ian |
Action Janet: Talk to w3m. |
14:24 |
norm |
JOIN |
14:24 |
|
Ian notes /Guide/Reports as place for editors' knowledge. |
14:24 |
norm |
Hi folks. (I can never tell which groups use IRC :-) |
14:24 |
Ian |
Hi Norm! |
14:24 |
janet |
Welcome, Norm |
14:25 |
janet |
http://www.w3.org/Guide/Reports/ |
14:25 |
hugo |
no: http://www.w3.org/Guide/Reports |
14:26 |
janet |
thanks for the correction, hugo |
14:26 |
norm |
Hugo, I get 404 for that URL |
14:26 |
norm |
nevermind |
14:26 |
Ian |
----------------- |
14:27 |
Ian |
Action EM: Upgrade the XMLspec DTD in light of other flavors out there. |
14:27 |
Ian |
-------- |
14:27 |
Ian |
IJ: Problem that Guide/Reports is not public. |
14:28 |
Ian |
IJ: Any objections to making this info public? |
14:28 |
Ian |
Unanimous: Public is better. |
14:28 |
Ian |
------- |
14:28 |
Ian |
Action everyone: send NW their style sheets and he will create a canonical version. |
14:29 |
Ian |
..the XMLSpec style sheet for producing html and FO's. |
14:29 |
Ian |
Action NW: Munge all the flavors and put a single one into CVS. |
14:29 |
Ian |
Action HH: Talk to NW about using CVS.w3.org |
14:29 |
Ian |
------- |
14:30 |
Ian |
Action EM and IJ: Talk about getting w3c editors to join spec prod (larger discussion). |
14:30 |
Ian |
---------- |
14:30 |
Ian |
Do people want to meet again? |
14:31 |
Ian |
(no enthusiastic desire; will carry out discussion on the list). |
14:31 |
Ian |
---------- |
14:32 |
Ian |
Discussion of "W3C plenary" for cross-pollination. |
14:34 |
Ian |
Deadline for action items: 4 weeks from today. |
14:35 |
Ian |
Adjourned. |
14:35 |
SusanL |
PART SusanL |
14:35 |
hugo |
PART hugo |
14:40 |
maxf |
PART maxf |
14:40 |
Philippe |
PART Philippe |