From W3C Wiki
- Proposer: Tantek Çelik
- Discussion Leader: Ben Adida
- Type of session: discussion
At the recent schema.org workshop, there was quite a bit of discussion of what syntax to use for adding semantic information to HTML documents from among: microdata, microformats, RDFa.
Ben Adida presented on the evolution of RDFa 1.1 and RDF 1.1 lite, and noted how RDFa has based many simplifications on microformats' syntax.
microdata itself has been evolving since it was first proposed, based on use-cases provided by RDFa proponents.
microformats has also been evolving with microformats 2, and most recently is proposing to use the "itemref" innovation of microdata over the previous "include-pattern"
It was clear from the discussion in the room that multiple syntaxes are actively co-evolving and learning from/with each other.
If you're interested in semantic syntaxes (microdata, microformats 2.0, RDFa) this session is for you. Topics:
- How are syntaxes evolving?
- What features are syntaxes borrowing from each other?
- Is there a common (JSON?) data model that syntaxes are converging on?
Scribe Fabien Gandon FabGandon on channel #semsyn of irc:irc.w3.org:6665
Twitter Archive Dump
fabien_gandon 02/11/2011 19:22 breakout session #semsyn at #w3c #tpac what syntax to use to add semantic information to HTML http://t.co/cOLcNHwy JeniT 02/11/2011 19:23 @fabien_gandon Are you going to live-tweet? #semsyn? kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:24 #tpac #semsyn @benadida is explaining #microformats history - the lower case semantic web http://t.co/OK2uwNaV fabien_gandon 02/11/2011 19:26 @JeniT on irc.w3.org:6665 channel #semsyn kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:28 #tpac #semsyn claims @benadida remixing fields from other schemas was not a #microformats goal hadleybeeman 02/11/2011 19:32 RDFa lite 1.1 - W3C Editor's Draft 30 October 2011, via @jeniT http://t.co/FKCteMBR #linkeddata #semsyn #TPAC kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:35 energetic discussions with Ian is my new band name #tpac #semsyn eyeonprofit 02/11/2011 19:36 RT @kevinmarks: "energetic discussions with Ian" is my new band name #tpac #semsyn bsletten 02/11/2011 19:40 RT @kevinmarks: #tpac #semsyn @benadida where #microformats, RDFa, microdata agree is on using the actual contents of the page as data (the DRY principle) kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:40 #tpac #semsyn @benadida where #microformats, RDFa, microdata agree is on using the actual contents of the page as data (the DRY principle) kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:43 #tpac #semsyn @t #microformats RDFa and microdata have all been devloped int he open, which shows that open specification works kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:44 #tpac #semsyn @t now explaining the http://t.co/T8obHriv - now simpler and more coherent. washes brighter. ciberch 02/11/2011 19:44 RT @kevinmarks: #tpac #semsyn @t #microformats RDFa and microdata have all been devloped int he open, which shows that open specification works kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:46 #tpac #semsyn @t: every social networking site has a name, photo and URL per person, so we can assume p-name u-url and u-photo for h-card kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:47 #tpac #semsyn @t: the more complex and hierarchical the syntax is, the more it reduces data quality (per Guha) kevinmarks 02/11/2011 19:48 #tpac #semsyn @t there was no way to write a generic #microformats parser - with http://t.co/T8obHriv this is possible kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:01 #tpac #semsyn @benadida RDFa is at its best when you want to mix already-existing vocabularies without seeking consensus or need RDF stack kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:02 #tpac #semsyn @t the right thing to do is develop an open vocabulary first, then worry about the syntactic mapping to #microformats et al kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:06 #tpac #semsyn @t the vocabulary is about agreement; people stripping out code is a syntax issue kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:08 #tpac #semsyn Alex Russell:we get to a point where the search engine pipeline and the end-user are seeing different things on the page kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:08 #tpac #semsyn Alex Russell: when you mark up with #microfromats et al you aren't directly addressing the primary user of your page kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:10 #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: we should treat these syntaxes as things that should be in HTML eventually and become first class kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:10 #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: data we mark up is probabalistically semantic - not first-person semantic kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:14 #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee vocabularies have a fractal nature - we should not build just for the big head or long tail of vocabularies kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:15 #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: yes data is wishy washy - enterprise cases are full of this kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:15 #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: it worries me when you say "we built the web in wishy-washy way, so we can do this in wishy-washy way" kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:16 #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: if I put the data on many websites I should be able to reconstitute the database table without loss LogicalB0T 02/11/2011 20:16 Fascinating. RT @kevinmarks - #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: yes data is wishy washy - enterprise cases are full of this kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:18 #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: I see more and more data in JSON on the web, and if we want a declarative form people make a second version kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:19 #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: data cleanliness is always a problem kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:20 #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: meaning drifts over time - we're not going to get there by defining ontologies ahead of time kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:21 #tpac #semsyn @t: first person benefits are the greatest path to high data quality. Add to addressbook link meant that data was much better kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:22 #tpac #semsyn @t: if you're making up semantics for the sake of it, it will rot. 'you might someday look nicer in a search engine' !enough kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:23 #tpac #semsyn @t: RFC 6350 - vcard4 drew on Portable Contacts, hCard experience. http://t.co/K9aXzf9R Person ignored this MartijnLinssen 02/11/2011 20:24 @kevinmarks With all due disrespect, W3C is a tech-fest run by nerds. We need business standards #tpac #semsyn ciberch 02/11/2011 20:24 What are the main use cases for #semsyn (micro formats, microdata, RDFa), stream publishing ? ala #facebook kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:24 #tpac #semsyn @t: http://t.co/K9aXzf9R diverged from every existing vocabulary arbitrarily. and made things worse. ciberch 02/11/2011 20:25 Or HTML APIs ? #semsyn kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:29 #tpac #semsyn @ciberch: having HTML APIs that make sense of the data on the page will drive this (see http://t.co/CKSXwVML ) tonyfish 02/11/2011 20:30 RT @kevinmarks: #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: data cleanliness is always a problem tonyfish 02/11/2011 20:30 RT @kevinmarks: #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: if I put the data on many websites I should be able to reconstitute the database table without loss tonyfish 02/11/2011 20:30 RT @kevinmarks: #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: yes data is wishy washy - enterprise cases are full of this tonyfish 02/11/2011 20:31 RT @kevinmarks: #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: it worries me when you say "we built the web in wishy-washy way, so we can do this in wishy-washy way" kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:32 #tpac #semsyn @t: as soon as you say indirection or subclass, you've lost most web developers @benadida: save pain for vocab developers kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:33 #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: I like what python does - from foaf import date - can bring in namespace pieces from elsewhere kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:34 #tpac #semsyn @timberners_lee: just as a browser has view source - we should have view data too kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:34 #tpac #semsyn http://t.co/wKzNTpjI enables bringing in a vocabulary to define keys kevinmarks 02/11/2011 20:35 #tpac #semsyn @slightlylate: you view source on something to work out how it was done and borrow it for your own site. ciberch 02/11/2011 20:39 @kevinmarks yup ideally we will move away from js apis that build iframes to pull html markup for a widget #semsyn hadleybeeman 02/11/2011 20:41 Very good session on semantic syntaxes: RDFa, microformats and microdata run by @benadida & @t. #semsyn #TPAC