Social Web Working Group Teleconference

23 Jun 2015

Attendees

Present: Arnaud, shepazu, rhiaro, jasnell, evanpro, harry, sandro
Regrets Chair: eprodrom
Scribe: sandro

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: hhalpin to ask if open-source/free software SIP exists for W3C [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/06/23-social-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Date: 23 June 2015

+Sandro

<ben_thatmustbeme> +ben_thatmustbeme

<wilkie> +wilkie

<wilkie> poor Zakim

<rhiaro> awwww Zakim is so lonely

<Loqi> :)

<wilkie> rude, Loqi

<rhiaro> and Loqi is mocking Zakim..

<Loqi> Sandro made 1 edit to Socialwg/2015-06-23 https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=84788&oldid=84771

<ben_thatmustbeme> https://www.webex.com/login/attend-a-meeting

https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m60d8f99fc911f2b6fdbb0650665f22b4

<wilkie> I missed last week's meeting because I forgot how time zones worked. ironically, I was writing social network code.

<jasnell> attempting to join

Hello....??? Three of us on Webex.... Now four

<cwebber2> there's an echo from someone

<cwebber2> I'm on now too

<rhiaro> cwebber what sip software did you use?

<rhiaro> cwebber2

<eprodrom> Well, that's going to be terrible

+Sandro

<eprodrom> +eprodrom

<eprodrom> On the phone

+jasnell

<cwebber2> I didn't get to test SIP this time

<cwebber2> I'm hoping to next time

<cwebber2> I ran out of time

<cwebber2> tsyesika: rhiaro: I'll be interested if you have luck with the SIP stuff

<rhiaro> cwebber2: I have no idea how to connect with sip, every client I tried needs a sip address not a number. I didn't realise.

<wilkie> I can scribe

<eprodrom> Is there anyone who can scribe?

<ben_thatmustbeme> sorry, was afk

<wilkie> that's fine with me!!

<eprodrom> scribenick: sandro

<wilkie> thanks sandro

<eprodrom> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-06-16-minutes

<jasnell> how many people are actually on the call??

<ben_thatmustbeme> +1

<jasnell> there appear to be only 6

<cwebber2> +1

<wilkie> +1

<eprodrom> PROPOSAL: approve minutes for 16 June 2015

<ben_thatmustbeme> jasnell: 6, it looks like

<eprodrom> +1

<wilkie> there seems to be a few in irc not on call too

<scribe> scribe: sandro

<cwebber2> rhiaro: :(

<cwebber2> also, I'm looking online for any evidence that there's support for SIP in webex

<cwebber2> I don't see any

jasnell: I created an updated editors draft and publication candidate using the mf2 examples added back in, with a note about accuracy

<tantek> great

jasnell: If they continue to be incorrect/unchecked we should look at removing them in the future, but we can publish like this

<tantek> we need more volunteers to help fix examples!

<harry> thanks jasnell!

ben_thatmustbeme: I have a large pull request queud up with corrections

<wilkie> I've never successfully used SIP ~ever~ and have resorted to using skype, which is a cheap compromise for me

<harry> wilkie, did you try SIP with WebEx?

eprodrom: lets return to the agenda. The question of whether we can meet without certain people seems to have been addressed.
... so we are meeting.

<ben_thatmustbeme> sorry, didn't mean to digress there

<wilkie> no, with the old zakim stuff. could never get it to work.

<wilkie> harry: nope

<eprodrom> RESOLVED: approve minutes of 16 June 2015

eprodrom: Minutes of 16 june approved

<harry> I think W3C SIP is down, so you may want to try WebEx SIP

<harry> I'd be interested if anyone got it working

<cwebber2> harry, *is* there a webex SIP?

<cwebber2> I couldn't find any instructions for connecting to it, if it exists

eprodrom: Any progress on open issues or actions that people want to report?

<tsyesika> i can't find any info on webex sip

<harry> There's the WebEx App, which is basically VoIP

<cwebber2> but that's proprietary

<harry> yes, indeed it is sadly enough.

<cwebber2> sorry

<jasnell> with the commit I made this morning, action-34 can be closed. http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/34

<harry> Anyways, there's always @cwebber2 syntax

<cwebber2> @cwebber@irc.w3.org

<harry> It is a good point we should have an open-source/free software SIP, I'll bring that up Systems Team

<cwebber2> harry, thank you!

<harry> ACTION: hhalpin to ask if open-source/free software SIP exists for W3C [recorded in [[1]|http://www.w3.org/2015/06/23-social-minutes.html#action01]]]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-68 - Ask if open-source/free software sip exists for w3c [on Harry Halpin - due 2015-06-30].

jasnell: I posted a commit saying they're non-normative, etc.

<harry> I mean, it's for W3C's WebEx, so it's the organization not Zakim.

<harry> Given Zakim no longer exists :)

fixed

MF2 examples in AS2

jasnell: they're in there but not correct. we're ready to publish.

<tantek> what about ben_thatmustbeme's patch to fix them?

jasnell: second issue is for MD and RDFa examples as well -- they do not necessarily reflect best practice.

<tantek> ben_thatmustbeme, what's the URL of your patch to fix the examples?

jasnell: in MF2, some of the class names are just made up, not what people actually are doing. those all need to be reviewed.

<tantek> for MD and RDFa - just add a warning for those too

<ben_thatmustbeme> tantek: they are not in yet, but i have a branch for mf2 fixes

<tantek> and a call for practitioners to submit fixes

tantek, he's talking about down the road

<harry> +1 ben_thatmustbeme

eprodrom: jasnell, what's the delta from the previous WG? Is it worth doing a new version?

<harry> We genereally want to publish a new WD every 3 months

jasnell: Yes. That was January. Significant changes in extended vocabulary
... like dropping some object types
... shifting around properties

<Arnaud_> I'm listening with a crippled env

<ben_thatmustbeme> tantek: https://github.com/dissolve/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/tree/fixmicroformats

<ben_thatmustbeme> current work

<tantek> ben_thatmustbeme: is that ready to merge? or how long do you need to make it merge ready?

<rhiaro> I'll help with fixing microformats examples, sorry I didn't get chance to look at it this week

harry: WG's are supposed to publish a WD every three months

<Arnaud_> did you guys recorded attendees?

<eprodrom> ek-KID-na

<tantek> good, so we have at least two more volunteers to help fix microformats examples: rhiaro and ben_thatmustbeme and me makes three

<Arnaud_> has to be done manually now unfortunately

<tantek> so let's close that issue - we have 3 volunteers to fix microformats examples

Arnaud, I don't have any idea how

<harry> So assuming the microformat review is non-controversial, we could resolve to publish next week and then have a new WD out in early July

eprodrom: Can we review this new ED over the next week.

<ben_thatmustbeme> tantek: not yet, it would not take much, I should be able to get it mergable tonight if I have the time

jasnell: Yes, and I can see about switching to echidna during that time.

<jasnell> http://jasnell.github.io/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/activitystreams2.html

<rhiaro> +rhiaro

<jasnell> http://jasnell.github.io/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/activitystreams2-vocabulary.html

<cwebber2> sounds good

eprodrom: I'll put the decision on the agenda for next week

(everyone) sounds good

<eprodrom> ben_thatmustbeme, multiple "natural" languages in the AS 2.0?

Multiple Natural Languages in AS2

ben_thatmustbeme: Not sure this is an issue any more...

<melvster> FYI : example from spec:

<melvster> "displayNameMap": {

<melvster> "en": "Martin added a new video to his album.",

<melvster> "ga": "Martin phost le fisean nua a albam."

<melvster> },

ben_thatmustbeme: THe need for multiuple natural languages in a single activity. No user stories include it. No systems I know that use it. I was suggesting removing it.
... I think it's complex enough that I don't know how to solve it.

<tantek> we should drop features from AS2 that have zero presence in any user stories and zero silo equivalent feature implementations

<aaronpk> +1

jasnell: Multi language support is a feature of json-ld. We inherit support even if we don't say anything. This is trying to scope it a bit, to say it's only meaningul in particular cntext
... ADL's XAPI uses it.
... some others do too
... that's AS1

<tantek> we don't inherit support because we don't require consuming code to support JSONLD

jasnell: That said, the use cases for this are fairly specific. I've used it for translation of activities

<tantek> kind of tired of that kind of reasoning

jasnell: I see there are some issues with translation to MF2 and MD, which are more presentation oriented.

<harry> I do think multiple language support is important, the W3C really wants to support internationalization in general

jasnell: I think it's okay that some things don't translate perfectly, but I think it's important to keep it.

<tsyesika> I think being able to express content in multiple languages is important for multilingual people with followers who understand different language(s)

<tsyesika> I would be opposed to removing it

<harry> Now, the details of how it transforms into any non-normative alternative syntax is to me not a big deal.

eprodrom: Is it possible to continue using JSON-LD without this feature

ben_thatmustbeme: We don't have to mention it in the spec. I don't want it to be required.

jasnell: It's already out there, scoped to four fields.

<Arnaud_> we could be silent about it though

jasnell: It's a requirement for consumers, not publishers.
... It's a bit of a pain for non-json-ld, I guess, but not that much.

ben_thatmustbeme: I'm looking for ways to simplify things for WG, reducing test cases, etc.

jasnell: I don't see it as adding much complexity.

<tsyesika> I think the current state of things being able to express things in multiple languages is really useful

jasnell: As far as I'm concerned it doesn't add complexity.

eprodrom: It sounds like we have a use case not yet captured. Is it possible to capture it?

<wilkie> as an implementor, I'd feel rather bad not including support for multiple language posts, and worried that the IG was just biased to miss this use-case

<tantek> as an implementer, I feel bad waiting to ship because someone required features that no one has ever built before

eprodrom: Sounds like there's some use case that maybe just needs to be captured.

tantek, jasnell says it's deployed in products

<wilkie> tantek: oh tantek, you poor over-worked coder :)

<tantek> wilkie - real implementors ship

<tantek> rather than "feel rather bad"

<bblfish> I think Ann Basseti made a case for languages and internationalisation

<jasnell> jsnell

<tsyesika> I am beginging to use this on my implementation, i have seen it used on facebook when before i closed my facebook account

<eprodrom> ACTION jsnell document use-case for multiple natural-language strings in AS 2.0

<trackbot> Created ACTION-69 - Document use-case for multiple natural-language strings in as 2.0 [on James Snell - due 2015-06-30].

<wilkie> tantek: your passive aggression is on point today!! of course, what is the point if you ship something only people a lot like us can use

<tantek> so there's a new use-case in More User Stories then? URL?

<melvster> FYI: SoLiD apps both produce and consume multi language already .... example: http://live.dbpedia.org/sparql?default-graph-uri=http%3A%2F%2Fdbpedia.org&query=DESCRIBE+%3Chttp://dbpedia.org/resource/Kevin_Marks%3E&output=application%2Fld%2Bjson

<harry> just was going to point out W3C supports internationalization in general, see how multiple language support in past was added to XML, RDF, etc.

<tantek> wilkie - what's the point in current silos who reach billions of people? clearly they must all be "people a lot like us"

<harry> So I'd be worried if this was removed completely.

<harry> We've had some applications - one is Samuel from OKFN from the D-CENT project

<harry> The City of Helsinki plans to implement some internal social software

Invited Experts

<harry> that will also have some public-facing AS2.0 endpoints

<harry> [looking for other IE]

<wilkie> tantek: you are so concerned with what already exists. besides, twitter has translations and sends two versions of posts in that case.

eprodrom: Sorry for the delay, chairs will deal with it before next week

Social API

<harry> We discussed the API heavily last call

<tantek> wilkie - documentation of "twitter has translations and sends two versions of posts in that case."?

<harry> not sure if there's been any updates since?

<cwebber2> rhiaro might but she isn't able to hear

<tsyesika> for what it's worth http://tsyesika.se/feed I've started manually writing my ActivityPump feed before I have got my software ready, that's using it

<tsyesika> oh we've moved on

<rhiaro> I started putting together this strawman API doc thingy

<Arnaud_> if we were silent on the multilanguage issue it becomes a quality of the implementation rather than a requirement

<tantek> +Tantek

<eprodrom> rhiaro, are you on the call?

tsyesika, rhiaro are you on call?

<tsyesika> i'm not, i couldn't get things working sorry >.<

<eprodrom> Anyone on the call who can give an update

eprodrom: Anyone on call who can give an update

<tsyesika> I'm only able to participate via IRC today

<rhiaro> There's not much to update; I started this: https://github.com/rhiaro/Social-APIs-Brainstorming/blob/master/micropump.md

<tantek> I think the last call / minutes gave a good update

<rhiaro> It's not in particularly useful shape yet

<cwebber2> eprodrom, harry, see above

harry: Last week we talked about folks brainstorming and trying to implement

https://gist.github.com/aaronpk/532b1868541b3df9a412

https://github.com/w3c-social/Social-APIs-Brainstorming

- Doug?

<rhiaro> I'll work more on this https://github.com/rhiaro/Social-APIs-Brainstorming/blob/master/micropump.md this week, hopefully with help from others :)

<tantek> thanks for the links sandro

harry: We need drafts by next F2F at absolute latest

<bblfish> sorry, did not get around to contribute this week. It's on my list.

shepazu, I'm scribing

<cwebber2> +q

harry: We want people to add to Brainstorming doc

<wilkie> tantek: https://support.twitter.com/articles/20172132-tweet-translation not to mention people who have multiple accounts so to have an english account

harry: Then somehow converge it into a spec

<tantek> wilkie++ thanks wilkie - appreciate the reference

<Loqi> wilkie has 15 karma

shepazu, sorry, your name was a paste-o

<harry> shepazu, maybe an update from the Annotations work would be in order if possible?

tantek: Brainstorming document looks good. We need to keep encouraging progress. I'd like to continue down that path, rather than an arbitrary deadline, like 1st draft by tpac.

harry: I'm just trying to remind folks of our charter schedule

tantek: Worst thing is to publish a std prematurely

<melvster> tantek++

<Loqi> tantek has 204 karma

<cwebber2> o/

harry: I agree, but we do need to provide some evidence of progress

<harry> It's not a PR problem, it's a management issue

<cwebber2> hey can I make a comment :P

sandro: The AC has a duty to review what we're doing, it's not a PR question

<harry> Anyways, we are in scope, but we have had lots of groups go off charter and fail to deliver, so we just need to show signs of progress.

<harry> So far, the convergence is good.

jasnell: How is a WD prematurely shipping a spec

tantek: The world considers a WD shipping a spec

<harry> There's differences in philosophy here, the important thing is to be making progress :)

eprodrom: Our current brainstorming document isn't something that can be implemented --- we want to get something closer to implementable

cwebber2: rhiaro is working on building a straw document, micropump.md
... needs help from solid, to be micropumplid.md :-)

<rhiaro> thanks cwebber2. https://github.com/rhiaro/Social-APIs-Brainstorming/blob/master/micropump.md <- this is *not* the same brainstorming doc you've seen before

<bblfish> Sorry again, for not having spent time last week on this document. I am getting towards it.

<bblfish> Hope @sandro can help out too

<rhiaro> bblfish: I started adding a bit of SoLiD into the brainstorming README, I hope that helps

bblfish, I

bblfish, don't count on me for that

cwebber2: I've been doing do experiments in guile/scheme building toward activitypump

<bblfish> sandro why are you on this group?

<bblfish> (just a question)

bblfish, to help it succeed. duh.

<tantek> wait what is going on?

<harry> I'm pretty sure Sandro cares :)

<tantek> I'm very confused

<harry> No one scribes for fun!

<cwebber2> oops I dropped off

<cwebber2> phone crashed

<tantek> I'm VERY confused by this dialog

<tantek> sandro: I'm not a big fan of SoLiD

<tantek> sandro: there's some very complicated things going on there

<tantek> sandro: there are other people who are

<Loqi> sandro has 15 karma

<tantek> sandro: my allegiance is making something that really works well here

<rhiaro> sandro++

<Loqi> sandro has 16 karma

<tantek> henry: so you want to do like LDP, join last 3 months and make a lot of comments and noise?

bblfish, I wrote the LDP charter.

<tantek> evan: we are done with this conversation, if you (henry) want to talk to sandro about participation in this group that's something you can do offline.

<shepazu> bblfish--

<Loqi> bblfish has 10 karma

bblfish--

<Loqi> bblfish has 9 karma

<bblfish> well its worrying if sandro who is in a solid position is undermining solid

<tantek> evan: we do need contributions from people interested in SoLiD contributing to the brainstorming document

<bblfish> not sure if it is woth me fighting this battle alone

bblfish, take that up with Tim

<tantek> evan: we do want to consider it at least in principle

<tantek> evan: for what we will come up with

<harry> For example, I'm still working my head around SoLID as well - and wouldn't comment on it until I have a better understanding

<cwebber2> bblfish, we've been asking for help from SoLID this whole time

<tantek> evan: if you want to see SoLiD come out as part of the Social API then it behooves you to participate in this brainstorming

<tantek> evan: if not, then that's fine too

<cwebber2> shepazu, haha

<melvster> i already raised an issue to the doc last week which rhiaro fixed already

<tantek> henry: it's not really interesting, I don't really see the point here

<tantek> henry: trying to fight a battle where most people are trying to go the other way is a complete waste of time

<tantek> henry: if Sandro is fighting against it

<cwebber2> bblfish, this is not productive

I am *not* fighting against it.

<tantek> harry: can we get a quick update from schepers?

<jasnell> thank you for ending that particular conversation

<tantek> evan: let's wrap up this Social API point

<tantek> evan: doug if you are on the call and you don't mind giving us an update

<tantek> schepers: sure

tantek, thanks for scribing. too in shock to scribe.

<bblfish> it is productive for me cwebber2. I just found out that if I participate I'll get no help from Sandro. So I'd just be wasting my time. Unless others want to support me.

<harry> shepazu, have time for a quick update on Annotations? When should look at the draft annotation specs? What's the dependencies?

<tantek> shepazu: we separated our web annotation group into separate areas

<tantek> shepazu: one is data model, given a message, what is the formatting

bblfish, that's ALSO not what I said bblfish

<tantek> shepazu: our default serialization is JSONLD, you can also use turtle, some of us are interested in HTML as well, e.g. using microformats

<tantek> shepazu: somehow mapping the data model to indicators in HTML

<tantek> shepazu: second thing

<tantek> shepazu: the annotation protocol

<tantek> shepazu: this is basically LDP with some bits bolted on

<bblfish> cwebber: > we've been asking for help from SoLID this whole time < yes, I am interested in helping but only if I get more support. I am not interested in working for free for nothing.

<tantek> shepazu: main difference is that LDP has a should re: default no accept headers is sent, it should be turtle, we are saying JSONLD instead with a MUST

<rhiaro> bblfish, those of us who are contributing are doing so because we care about a particular technology and working for convergence, all of us 'working for free' currently

<tantek> shepazu: we're about to publish that, the annotation protocol, probably next week, as a first public WD

<tantek> shepazu: the 3rd thing is the range finder API

<ben_thatmustbeme> ditto to rhiaro

<tantek> shepazu: the idea is that given any kind of text

<bblfish> yes, but unless there is a team supporting me, its not helpful to work on something.

<tantek> shepazu: you want to point to a particular section of text

<bblfish> I'd just be downvoted on every important issue

<tantek> shepazu: we made rangefinder API - sort of like a find in page API

<tantek> shepazu: later on there will be a URL syntax that will take advantage of this

<eprodrom> bblfish, sandro please take this discussion out of channel

<tantek> shepazu: this is similar to fragmentions

<eprodrom> https://indiewebcamp.com/fragmention

<tantek> shepazu: it's a way that fragmentions could be re-ified in the browser

<tantek> shepazu: we have other things going on as well

<tantek> shepazu: all of this is geared towards, you can put the pieces together and it will make an annotation client

<tantek> shepazu: I'm trying to understand how AS2 works with this

shepazu: It's a big goal NOT to conflict with what you're doing

<tantek> shepazu: our goal is to not conflict, and to re-use

shepazu: If there's something that can be generalized beyond annotations, that's what we want to do
... We're just trying to put any necessary building blocks in place

eprodrom: You mentiooned the protocol, which sounds like the main overlap. Is there an ED?

<cwebber2> :)

shepazu: ... looking ....

<shepazu> http://w3c.github.io/web-annotation/protocol/wd/

eprodrom: This sounds a lot like solid

Social Linked Data

eprodrom: It'd be good compare/contrast
... that looks like a kind of old draft.... maybe the date's wrong?

<cwebber2> thanks shepazu

eprodrom: Please, people try to take a look

<cwebber2> shepazu++

<Loqi> shepazu has 2 karma

<bblfish> I should look at Annotations Protocol. I am sure I'd like to use it.

<ben_thatmustbeme> shepazu++

eprodrom: So I'll take a look at that protocol, and I hope everyone else does, too.

<Loqi> shepazu has 3 karma

<harry> rhiaro, the answer is "no"

<tantek> thank you shepazu for the overview and summary!

eprodrom: AOB?

<cwebber2> thanks for scribing sandro (and tantek for filling in)

<cwebber2> and thanks for chairing eprodrom

Socialwg/2015-06-23-minutes