Re: Minutes October 25, 2012 SVG WG Telcon

On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 3:09 PM, Nikos Andronikos <
nikos.andronikos@cisra.canon.com.au> wrote:

> Hi all,
> Minutes from today's telcon
>
> http://www.w3.org/2012/10/25-**svg-minutes.html,text<http://www.w3.org/2012/10/25-svg-minutes.html,text>
>
>  and as text:
>
>    [1]W3C
>
>       [1] http://www.w3.org/
>
>                                - DRAFT -
>
>                     SVG Working Group Teleconference
>
> 25 Oct 2012
>
>    [2]Agenda
>
>       [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/**Public/public-svg-wg/**
> 2012OctDec/0016.html<http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012OctDec/0016.html>
>
>    See also: [3]IRC log
>
>       [3] http://www.w3.org/2012/10/25-**svg-irc<http://www.w3.org/2012/10/25-svg-irc>
>
> Attendees
>
>    Present
>    Regrets
>           cyril
>
>    Chair
>           SV_MEETING_CHAIR
>
>    Scribe
>           nikos
>
> Contents
>
>      * [4]Topics
>          1. [5]Percentage values for 'transform' on pattern,
>             linear/radialGradient,
>          2. [6]spreadMethod on gradients
>          3. [7]Publication schedule for SVG2
>          4. [8]Filter Effects
>      * [9]Summary of Action Items
>      ______________________________**____________________________
>
>    <trackbot> Date: 25 October 2012
>
>    <krit> give me a second
>
>    <scribe> scribenick: nikos
>
> Percentage values for 'transform' on pattern, linear/radialGradient,
>
>    clipPath
>
>    krit: what does % on transform functions mean?
>    ... is it relative to the bounding box of the object, i.e. a
>    rect
>    ... another possibility is user space, or the viewport
>    ... so the percentage would be a percentage of the dimension of
>    the viewport
>    ... if you compare with transforms, it's relative to the
>    bounding box
>    ... I would like to do the same with resources, if you have
>    clippath with a transform, it's relative to the bounding box
>
>    nikos: I agree with you
>
>    ed: It makes more sense to have it that way
>
>    Tav: for somethings, don't we allow the user to select?
>
>    krit: there is no way to select for transform
>    ... it is also conformant with how we have done it in the psat
>
>    nikos: what about rotation?
>
>    krit: we don't accept percentage for rotate
>
>    Tav: using the bounding box is easier in the code
>    ... just to be clear, we are talking about bounding box without
>    markers or stroke?
>
>    krit: the object bounding box
>    ... it does not include stroke or markers
>
>    resolution: percentage values on transform functions will be
>    relative to the object bounding box of the referencing element
>
> spreadMethod on gradients
>
>    <Tav> [10]http://tavmjong.free.fr/**SVG/RADIALGRAD/index.html<http://tavmjong.free.fr/SVG/RADIALGRAD/index.html>
>
>      [10] http://tavmjong.free.fr/SVG/**RADIALGRAD/index.html<http://tavmjong.free.fr/SVG/RADIALGRAD/index.html>
>
>    Tav: I started looking at the changes to gradients, I had a
>    question
>    ... what do we do for the different spread methods?
>    ... what confused me, was the second figure (on that page)
>
>    krit: the big white circle should be filled with pad
>    ... can we agree that spread methods are still useful?
>
>    Tav: well it would be inconsistent if you didn't have them
>
>    krit: what I really miss, is having spreadMethod none
>
>    Tav: I thought about that and was going to suggest it until I
>    realised Canvas always does padding
>
>    krit: for gradients, I want it to be compatible with Canvas,
>    doesn't mean we can't do more
>
>    Tav: I'm not sure how useful none is
>
>    ed: it would mean you wouldn't fill the shape potentially, I'm
>    not sure how useful it is either
>
>    krit: the only graphics library I know that doesn't support
>    none is core graphics, I think it could be useful
>
>    Tav: if you look at fig 5, I wanted to check if it's rendered
>    correctly?
>
>    krit: it is
>
>    Tav: the only difference between SVG and Canvas, is what
>    happens when the start and end circle are touching
>
>    krit: there shouldn't be a difference
>    ... you mean fully overlapping right?
>
>    Tav: no I mean touching one point (fig 7)
>    ... Canvas does not fill the entire plane, SVG does
>
>    krit: I'm not sure about that
>    ... if you think about infinite big circles, the right side can
>    never be filled
>
>    Tav: if you look at the SVG spec, it says you average the
>    colours and fill the right part with the averaged value
>
>    krit: It should do exactly as you have drawn in fig7
>

I agree. Figure 7 is correct.
I think the old behavior follows the current definition of how a radial
gradient is rendered.
Now that we move to the new definition (a radial gradient is an infinite
set of circles), it is no longer correct.


>
>    Tav: it would be different if you had spreadMethod=reflect or
>    repeat
>
>    ed: the spreadMethod is just how to repeat the colours, not the
>    shape


>    krit: correct


>    <Tav>
>    [11]https://svgwg.org/svg2-**draft/pservers.html#**RadialGradientNo<https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/pservers.html#RadialGradientNo>
>    tes
>
>      [11] https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/**pservers.html#**
> RadialGradientNotes<https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/pservers.html#RadialGradientNotes>
>
>    nikos: is there any difference if the focal circle touches the
>    outer circle, or if the focal circle touches the outer circle?
>
>    krit: there should be no difference
>    ... in Canvas the area to the right should be transparent
>    ... mathematically it is transparent, but it could be specced
>    to be filled
>    ... do we want consistency?
>
>    ed: for CSS gradient the same problem applies, I think Tab was
>    saying that the CSS group preferred the averaging
>    ... we have discussed this before
>
>    krit: it's a question of whether we want to be compatible with
>    CSS gradients or with HTML Canvas
>
>    ed: in general I find it nice if the paint servers fully fill
>    the given shape
>
>    nikos: since we are allowing CSS gradient paint servers, why
>    not spec the opposite in SVG, then you can select one or the
>    other?
>
>    krit: for Webkit, I'm not sure if it would be implemented
>    ... I'm not sure if this edge case is even implemented for CSS
>    gradients
>
>    Tav: what is the status of the CSS spec? could they change it?
>
>    <scribe> ACTION: Krit to craft some test cases to compare the
>    implementations of gradients in CSS/Canvas/SVG [recorded in
>    [12]http://www.w3.org/2012/10/**25-svg-minutes.html#action01<http://www.w3.org/2012/10/25-svg-minutes.html#action01>
> ]
>
>    <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find Krit. You can review and
>    register nicknames at
>    <[13]http://www.w3.org/**Graphics/SVG/WG/track/users<http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/users>
> >.
>
>      [13] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/**SVG/WG/track/users%3E<http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/users%3E>
> .
>
>    <scribe> ACTION: krit to craft some test cases to compare the
>    implementations of gradients in CSS/Canvas/SVG [recorded in
>    [14]http://www.w3.org/2012/10/**25-svg-minutes.html#action02<http://www.w3.org/2012/10/25-svg-minutes.html#action02>
> ]
>
>    <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find krit. You can review and
>    register nicknames at
>    <[15]http://www.w3.org/**Graphics/SVG/WG/track/users<http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/users>
> >.
>
>      [15] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/**SVG/WG/track/users%3E<http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/users%3E>
> .
>
>    <scribe> ACTION: dirk to craft some test cases to compare the
>    implementations of gradients in CSS/Canvas/SVG [recorded in
>    [16]http://www.w3.org/2012/10/**25-svg-minutes.html#action03<http://www.w3.org/2012/10/25-svg-minutes.html#action03>
> ]
>
>    <trackbot> Created ACTION-3394 - Craft some test cases to
>    compare the implementations of gradients in CSS/Canvas/SVG [on
>    Dirk Schulze - due 2012-11-01].
>
>    <ed> [17]http://dev.w3.org/csswg/**css3-images/#radial-gradients<http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images/#radial-gradients>
>
>      [17] http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-**images/#radial-gradients<http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images/#radial-gradients>
>
>    ed: look at 4.2.3 for degenerate cases
>
>    krit: in this case, CSS gradients don't have focal radius
>    ... if they have a radius of zero, what do they paint?
>    ... I don't think this is the use case we are looking for
>
>    <krit> [18]http://dev.w3.org/csswg/**css4-images/#conic-gradients<http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css4-images/#conic-gradients>
>
>      [18] http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css4-**images/#conic-gradients<http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css4-images/#conic-gradients>
>
>    krit: CSS gradients doesn't matter, because you don't specify
>    the bounds of the outer circle
>    ... it's not specified in CSS 4 either
>
>    ed: so for existing content, it would mean that you would see
>    through some parts of the shape?
>
>    krit: the problem is webkit and firefox always pushed the focal
>    point inside the circle
>    ... I think Opera is doing something similar
>
>    ed: I'm leaning towards aligning with Canvas, but I would like
>    to see some testcases
>
>    krit: We could ask authors what they want? Maybe discuss on the
>    mailing list
>
>    ed: do we want to wait for the test cases? or resolve on one of
>    the options now?
>
>    Tav: I'd say wait
>
> Publication schedule for SVG2
>
>    ed: I'm not sure if we decided when the next publication would
>    happen
>    ... but it would be good to have a date to work against
>    ... so looking at the table of the current plan, we should have
>    LC working draft in January
>
>    krit: it's a tough schedule
>
>    ed: that's what I'm thinking, I don't think we can take what we
>    have now and go to LC
>
>    krit: we should have a F2F before LC
>    ... so that would be February
>    ... I would like to have a second WD before we go to LC
>
>    <richardschwerdtfeger> rich: I have some travel in Februaary
>
>    ed: so what dates would be realistic for a second working
>    draft?
>
>    krit: after our F2F seems to be reasonable
>    ... I think there's more to discuss, i.e. security concerns
>    from Mozilla
>    ... can we resolve that we won't publish in January? do we need
>    to resolve on that?
>
>    ed: I think it would be good to have a resolution to point to
>
>    rich: was someone doing tab-index? what's the status of that?
>
>    krit: the question is how much we need to specify in SVG? maybe
>    we can rely on the definition in HTML5
>
>    <ed> ACTION-3341?
>
>    <trackbot> ACTION-3341 -- Doug Schepers to is going to look
>    into conflicts between the model of tab index and navigation --
>    due 2012-08-30 -- OPEN
>
>    <trackbot>
>    [19]http://www.w3.org/**Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/**3341<http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/3341>
>
>      [19] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/**SVG/WG/track/actions/3341<http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/3341>
>
>    rich: I'm certainly going to use what we wrote up for ARIA in
>    HTML5 because the wording was good
>
>    resolution: goal for next SVG 2 working draft is February -
>    after F2F
>
>    <scribe> ACTION: ed to update SVG 2 publication schedule in
>    wiki to note that the goal for next SVG 2 working draft is
>    February, after the F2F [recorded in
>    [20]http://www.w3.org/2012/10/**25-svg-minutes.html#action04<http://www.w3.org/2012/10/25-svg-minutes.html#action04>
> ]
>
>    <trackbot> Could not create new action (unparseable data in
>    server response: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xc3 in
>    position 7: ordinal not in range(128)) - please contact sysreq
>    with the details of what happened.
>
>    <scribe> ACTION: ed to update SVG 2 publication schedule in
>    wiki to note that the goal for next SVG 2 working draft is
>    February, after the F2F [recorded in
>    [21]http://www.w3.org/2012/10/**25-svg-minutes.html#action05<http://www.w3.org/2012/10/25-svg-minutes.html#action05>
> ]
>
>    <trackbot> Could not create new action (unparseable data in
>    server response: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xc3 in
>    position 7: ordinal not in range(128)) - please contact sysreq
>    with the details of what happened.
>
>    <scribe> ACTION: ed to update SVG 2 publication schedule in
>    wiki to note that the goal for next SVG 2 working draft is
>    February, after the F2F [recorded in
>    [22]http://www.w3.org/2012/10/**25-svg-minutes.html#action06<http://www.w3.org/2012/10/25-svg-minutes.html#action06>
> ]
>
>    <trackbot> Could not create new action (unparseable data in
>    server response: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xc3 in
>    position 7: ordinal not in range(128)) - please contact sysreq
>    with the details of what happened.
>
>    <scribe> ACTION: Erik to update SVG 2 publication schedule in
>    wiki to note that the goal for next SVG 2 working draft is
>    February, after the F2F [recorded in
>    [23]http://www.w3.org/2012/10/**25-svg-minutes.html#action07<http://www.w3.org/2012/10/25-svg-minutes.html#action07>
> ]
>
>    <trackbot> Could not create new action (unparseable data in
>    server response: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xc3 in
>    position 7: ordinal not in range(128)) - please contact sysreq
>    with the details of what happened.
>
>    <scribe> ACTION:ed to update SVG 2 publication schedule in wiki
>    to note that the goal for next SVG 2 working draft is February,
>    after the F2F [recorded in
>    [24]http://www.w3.org/2012/10/**25-svg-minutes.html#action08<http://www.w3.org/2012/10/25-svg-minutes.html#action08>
> ]
>
>    ed: so that brings last call dates forward a bit, not sure by
>    how much
>    ... we'll have to adjust the dates to be later
>
>    rich: do we know when we are going to go to REC?
>
>    krit: end of next year (2013) for CR stage
>
>    rich: the reason I'm asking, is I'm working with ePub people,
>    and they will want to know when the accessibility stuff will
>    show up
>
>    <ed>
>    [25]http://www.w3.org/**Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_**Requirements_Co<http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Co>
>    mmitments
>
>      [25] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/**SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_**
> Commitments<http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Commitments>
>
>    ed: so looking at the commitments page, there are plenty of
>    things that haven't been put in the spec
>    ... all the ones that don't have commitment from anyone, are up
>    for grabs if anyone is interested
>
>    <krit> [26]http://www.w3.org/TR/**filter-effects/<http://www.w3.org/TR/filter-effects/>
>
>      [26] http://www.w3.org/TR/filter-**effects/<http://www.w3.org/TR/filter-effects/>
>
> Filter Effects
>
>    <krit> [27]http://www.w3.org/TR/**filter-effects/<http://www.w3.org/TR/filter-effects/>
>
>      [27] http://www.w3.org/TR/filter-**effects/<http://www.w3.org/TR/filter-effects/>
>
>    krit: filter effects WPD has been published
>    ... can I remove relaxNG from the spec?
>    ... do we need it ?
>    ... if it's useful, who will write it ?
>
>    ed: we had a starting point from a previous draft of SVG 2
>    ... so there are some files that may be ready
>    ... I'm not really sure what state they are in
>
>    krit: how does relaxNG work with HTML5 and validating there?
>    ... I would rather remove it, it's adding complexity that is
>    not needed
>    ... currently, we just have a note in the spec that we want to
>    provide it
>
>    ed: I would be fine removing it
>    ... if we don't have anyone who wants to do the work, we can
>    remove it and if someone wants to do it later they can
>
>    krit: sounds good
>
> Summary of Action Items
>
>    [NEW] ACTION: dirk to craft some test cases to compare the
>    implementations of gradients in CSS/Canvas/SVG [recorded in
>    [28]http://www.w3.org/2012/10/**25-svg-minutes.html#action03<http://www.w3.org/2012/10/25-svg-minutes.html#action03>
> ]
>    [NEW] ACTION: ed to update SVG 2 publication schedule in wiki
>    to note that the goal for next SVG 2 working draft is February,
>    after the F2F [recorded in
>    [29]http://www.w3.org/2012/10/**25-svg-minutes.html#action04<http://www.w3.org/2012/10/25-svg-minutes.html#action04>
> ]
>    [NEW] ACTION: ed to update SVG 2 publication schedule in wiki
>    to note that the goal for next SVG 2 working draft is February,
>    after the F2F [recorded in
>    [30]http://www.w3.org/2012/10/**25-svg-minutes.html#action05<http://www.w3.org/2012/10/25-svg-minutes.html#action05>
> ]
>    [NEW] ACTION: ed to update SVG 2 publication schedule in wiki
>    to note that the goal for next SVG 2 working draft is February,
>    after the F2F [recorded in
>    [31]http://www.w3.org/2012/10/**25-svg-minutes.html#action06<http://www.w3.org/2012/10/25-svg-minutes.html#action06>
> ]
>    [NEW] ACTION: ed to update SVG 2 publication schedule in wiki
>    to note that the goal for next SVG 2 working draft is February,
>    after the F2F [recorded in
>    [32]http://www.w3.org/2012/10/**25-svg-minutes.html#action08<http://www.w3.org/2012/10/25-svg-minutes.html#action08>
> ]
>    [NEW] ACTION: Erik to update SVG 2 publication schedule in wiki
>    to note that the goal for next SVG 2 working draft is February,
>    after the F2F [recorded in
>    [33]http://www.w3.org/2012/10/**25-svg-minutes.html#action07<http://www.w3.org/2012/10/25-svg-minutes.html#action07>
> ]
>    [NEW] ACTION: Krit to craft some test cases to compare the
>    implementations of gradients in CSS/Canvas/SVG [recorded in
>    [34]http://www.w3.org/2012/10/**25-svg-minutes.html#action01<http://www.w3.org/2012/10/25-svg-minutes.html#action01>
> ]
>    [NEW] ACTION: krit to craft some test cases to compare the
>    implementations of gradients in CSS/Canvas/SVG [recorded in
>    [35]http://www.w3.org/2012/10/**25-svg-minutes.html#action02<http://www.w3.org/2012/10/25-svg-minutes.html#action02>
> ]
>
>    [End of minutes]
>      ______________________________**____________________________
>
>
>     Minutes formatted by David Booth's [36]scribe.perl version
>     1.137 ([37]CVS log)
>     $Date: 2012/10/25 22:06:20 $
>      ______________________________**____________________________
>
>      [36] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~**checkout~/2002/scribe/**
> scribedoc.htm<http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm>
>      [37] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/**scribe/<http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/>
>
> Scribe.perl diagnostic output
>
>    [Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
> This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.137  of Date: 2012/09/20 20:19:01
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> Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)
>
> Succeeded: s/of a/of the/
> Succeeded: s/sometimes it's nice to have the fill/in general I find it n
> ice if the paint servers fully fill the given shape/
> Succeeded: s/some .../some testcases/
> Succeeded: s/WG/WD/
> Succeeded: s/for/from/
> Found ScribeNick: nikos
> Inferring Scribes: nikos
>
> WARNING: No "Present: ... " found!
> Possibly Present: IPcaller P3 Tav aaaa aabb cyril ed https joined krit n
> ikos rich richardschwerdtfeger scribenick svg trackbot
> You can indicate people for the Present list like this:
>         <dbooth> Present: dbooth jonathan mary
>         <dbooth> Present+ amy
>
> Regrets: cyril
> Agenda: [39]http://lists.w3.org/**Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/**
> 2012OctDec <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012OctDec>
> /0016.html
>
>      [39] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/**Public/public-svg-wg/**
> 2012OctDec/0016.html<http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012OctDec/0016.html>
>
> WARNING: No meeting chair found!
> You should specify the meeting chair like this:
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>
> Found Date: 25 Oct 2012
> Guessing minutes URL: [40]http://www.w3.org/2012/10/**25-svg-minutes.html<http://www.w3.org/2012/10/25-svg-minutes.html>
> People with action items: dirk ed erik krit
>
>      [40] http://www.w3.org/2012/10/25-**svg-minutes.html<http://www.w3.org/2012/10/25-svg-minutes.html>
>
>
>    End of [41]scribe.perl diagnostic output]
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