Re: webtv-ISSUE-21: Time synchronisation

Olivier, you are perfectly right, I made a big confusion, but not the 
one you point out.
I mistook the acronym "IPR-free" for "royalty-free", sorry about that.
The correct sentence was:
"We are operating in W3C with royalty-free constraints, so we are not 
allowed to mandate the use of a royalty-bearing standard such as UPnP."

But talking of a "royalty-free implementation" is misleading.
If a standard infringes some royalty-bearing IPR, then the use of any 
conformant implementation will be subject to the payment of royalties.
Open source has absolutely nothing to do with IPR and royalties.

On 7/6/11 12:14 , Olivier Carmona wrote:
>
> Dear JC,
>
> I think that you are confusing several legal notions between royalty 
> free implementation and intellectual property free.
>
> First, you say"We are operating in W3C with IPR-free constraints". 
> This is wrong, W3C operates under royalty-free policy, and this is not 
> an equivalent of IPR-free policy.
>
> Second, Bonjour implementation is open source, but not IPR free 
> (please read 
> http://developer.apple.com/softwarelicensing/agreements/bonjour.html 
> and in particular the mention "Regardless of whether your product will 
> be sold, used internally, or bundled with other products, if you wish 
> to use Apple software, technologies and/or trademarks, you need to 
> obtain a license from Apple to do so.").  Having a royalty free 
> implementation, does not forbid Apple to set a royalty for the 
> intellectual property inside.
>
> Note that there are also several UPnP implementations that are royalty 
> free, see for instance GUPnP.
>
JCD: there are open source implementations (free software) of the video 
codec H264, but their use is subject to royalties.
Best regards
JC
>
> Note that PTP is not IPR-free, not even sure, that it is Royalty Free 
> (look for 1588 in 
> http://standards.ieee.org/about/sasb/patcom/pat1390.html). However, 
> there is an open source version of it.
>
> Note that WebM is not IPR-free (read 
> http://www.webmproject.org/license/software/ "Copyright (c) 2010, 
> Google Inc »).
>
> So, on the two solutions that you propose:
>
> -There are UPnP royalty free implementation, made by UPnP Forum, an 
> open initiative counting 800 vendors.
>
> -There are Bonjour/mDNS royalty free implementation and IPR is the 
> property of one company.
>
> Regards,
>
> Olivier
>
> *From:*Jean-Claude Dufourd 
> [mailto:jean-claude.dufourd@telecom-paristech.fr]
> *Sent:* mardi 7 juin 2011 11:04
> *To:* Olivier Carmona
> *Cc:* public-web-and-tv@w3.org
> *Subject:* Re: webtv-ISSUE-21: Time synchronisation
>
> Dear Olivier
>
> What is WebM, if not an attempt to redefine a video coding standard to 
> get rid of H.264 ?
> There was a LONG discussion of just this subject on the HTML5 list.
>
> I am reacting to Russell's messages objecting to defining any feature 
> already existing in UPnP.
>
> May I remind you of the environment we are in ? We are operating in 
> W3C with IPR-free constraints, so we are not allowed to mandate the 
> use of an IPR-bearing standard such as UPnP. Not all alternatives to 
> UPnP have the precise sync feature. For the sake of argument, let us 
> say Bonjour/mDNS is relevant and does not have precise sync. The 
> precise sync feature is an important feature for our constituency.
>
> So we have to find a way to:
> - allow the use of the UPnP precise sync feature.
> - allow the use of Bonjour/mDNS together with PTP to achieve precise sync.
>
> Best regards
> JC
>
> On 7/6/11 10:33 , Olivier Carmona wrote:
>
> JC,
>
> Reversely, an argument such as "let's implement it again" because it 
> does not follow W3C patent policy is not a better way to proceed. Up 
> to my knowledge, there are plenty of technology out on the market that 
> does not follow the W3C Patent Policy such as H.264, AAC, MPEG 4 
> Visual, etc... for instance and that are referenced by HTML5 (see 
> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec-author-view/video.html).
>
> Don't you think that there is a middle way in between here?
>
> Regards,
>
> Olivier
>
> *From:*Jean-Claude Dufourd 
> [mailto:jean-claude.dufourd@telecom-paristech.fr]
> *Sent:* mardi 7 juin 2011 10:19
> *To:* public-web-and-tv@w3.org <mailto:public-web-and-tv@w3.org>
> *Subject:* Re: webtv-ISSUE-21: Time synchronisation
>
> Thanks to Russell and Olivier for pointing out the precise technology 
> that allows this type of synchronisation.
>
> However, is this feature present in all discovery and service 
> protocols that HNTF has to consider ? I do not think so.
> So it may be a valid request to have this feature in HNTF, to provide 
> it when the underlying technologies don't.
>
> An argument such as "this feature is already in this standard so do 
> not touch it" is difficult to accept, specially if the standard in 
> question does not follow the W3C patent policy.
>
> Best regards
> JC
>
>
> On 7/6/11 08:05 , Olivier Carmona wrote:
>
> JC,
>
> As an example, AwoX achieves below +/-10ms using PTP (aka IEEE 
> 1588-2002) within its commercial synchronized solutions above UPnP AV.
>
> Regards,
>
> Olivier
>
> *From:*Russell Berkoff [mailto:r.berkoff@sisa.samsung.com]
> *Sent:* mardi 7 juin 2011 03:10
> *To:* Jean-Claude Dufourd; public-web-and-tv@w3.org 
> <mailto:public-web-and-tv@w3.org>
> *Subject:* RE: webtv-ISSUE-21: Time synchronisation
>
> Hello,
>
> I'm told that IEEE-802.1AS is quite good at getting devices to 
> synchronize to a common timebase (down to the 10's of nS).
>
> UPnP actions to do scheduled playback such as  SyncPlay() (based on 
> the availability of well synchronized device timebases) were added in 
> AV-4. This approach is different than the previous approach of having 
> a UPnP Control Point just send a Play command to the renderer at the 
> "right" moment.
>
> Sorry I couldn't provide the pointers to the specs earlier.
>
> Regards,
>
> Russell Berkoff
>
> *From:*public-web-and-tv-request@w3.org 
> <mailto:public-web-and-tv-request@w3.org> 
> [mailto:public-web-and-tv-request@w3.org] *On Behalf Of *Jean-Claude 
> Dufourd
> *Sent:* Monday, June 06, 2011 10:32 AM
> *To:* public-web-and-tv@w3.org <mailto:public-web-and-tv@w3.org>
> *Subject:* Re: webtv-ISSUE-21: Time synchronisation
>
> I would think the actual relevant section in the second document to be 
> 2.5.9 Clocksync (within the theory of operations you point to in 
> another email).
> All examples point to a synchronisation in seconds. I can believe that 
> this technology allows a synchronization with a precision of seconds.
> We believe there is no way to achieve lip-sync (-20ms to +40ms) with 
> such a mechanism based on UPnP 1.0, regardless of the media transport 
> technology used.
> Best regards
> JC
>
> On 6/6/11 10:47 , Russell Berkoff wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> The submitted test case is redundant with facilities available in UPnP.
>
> UPnP AV-4 provides Linked Content Metadata (Object Linking) as well as 
> Precision Time Synchronization facilities. As previously mentioned in 
> this forum, the current UPnP specifications are now available at no 
> charge.
>
> Please refer to:
>
> http://www.upnp.org/specs/av/UPnP-av-ContentDirectory-v4-Service.pdf
>
> *Appendix G: Content Authoring with Object Linking*
>
> and
>
> http://www.upnp.org/specs/av/UPnP-av-AVTransport-v3-Service.pdf
>
> *2.4.25 SyncPlay()*
>
> Regards,
>
> Russell Berkoff
>
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> JC Dufourd
> Directeur d'Etudes/Professor
> Groupe Multimedia/Multimedia Group
> Traitement du Signal et Images/Signal and Image Processing
> Telecom ParisTech, 37-39 rue Dareau, 75014 Paris, France
> Tel: +33145817733 - Mob: +33677843843 - Fax: +33145817144
>
>
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> -- 
> JC Dufourd
> Directeur d'Etudes/Professor
> Groupe Multimedia/Multimedia Group
> Traitement du Signal et Images/Signal and Image Processing
> Telecom ParisTech, 37-39 rue Dareau, 75014 Paris, France
> Tel: +33145817733 - Mob: +33677843843 - Fax: +33145817144
>
>
>
> __________ Information provenant d'ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version de la 
> base des signatures de virus 6185 (20110606) __________
>
> Le message a été vérifié par ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
> __________ Information provenant d'ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version de la 
> base des signatures de virus 6185 (20110606) __________
>
> Le message a été vérifié par ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
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>
>
>
> -- 
> JC Dufourd
> Directeur d'Etudes/Professor
> Groupe Multimedia/Multimedia Group
> Traitement du Signal et Images/Signal and Image Processing
> Telecom ParisTech, 37-39 rue Dareau, 75014 Paris, France
> Tel: +33145817733 - Mob: +33677843843 - Fax: +33145817144
>
>
>
> __________ Information provenant d'ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version de la 
> base des signatures de virus 6185 (20110606) __________
>
> Le message a été vérifié par ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
> __________ Information provenant d'ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version de la 
> base des signatures de virus 6186 (20110607) __________
>
> Le message a été vérifié par ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com


-- 
JC Dufourd
Directeur d'Etudes/Professor
Groupe Multimedia/Multimedia Group
Traitement du Signal et Images/Signal and Image Processing
Telecom ParisTech, 37-39 rue Dareau, 75014 Paris, France
Tel: +33145817733 - Mob: +33677843843 - Fax: +33145817144