- From: Noah Mendelsohn <nrm@arcanedomain.com>
- Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2011 11:47:02 -0500
- To: "www-tag@w3.org" <www-tag@w3.org>
Larry has prepared draft TAG telcon minutes for 24 Feb 2011, and I've
checked them in at [1]. A text-only copy is provided below.
Noah
[1] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/02/24-minutes
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
Tag Weekly
24 Feb 2011
[2]Agenda
[2] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/02/24-agenda
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2011/02/24-tagmem-irc
Attendees
Present
Peter Linss, Noah Mendelsohn, Ashok Malhotra, Larry Masinter,
Jonathan Rees, Henry Thompson (briefly)
Regrets
Dan Appelquist, Tim Berners-Lee
Chair
Noah Mendelsohn
Scribe
Larry Masinter
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]convene
2. [6]minutes
3. [7]administrative items
4. [8]Agenda 6. ISSUE-39 (rdfURIMeaning-39) & ISSUE-57
(HttpRedirections-57) & ISSUE-14 (httpRange-14)
5. [9]Update on Registries
6. [10]IETF Meeting preparation
7. [11]W3C web site on Architecture
* [12]Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________
<Larry> scribe: Larry Masinter
<Larry> scribenick: Larry
<plinss> jar: [13]http://www.w3.org/2006/tools/wiki/Zakim-SIP
[13] http://www.w3.org/2006/tools/wiki/Zakim-SIP
Noah: HT will join at 'top of hour'
convene
Ashok regrets next week
minutes
<NoahM> Jan 27 [14]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/01/27-minutes
[14] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/01/27-minutes
<NoahM> RESOLUTION: Minutes of 27 January are approved
[15]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/01/27-minutes
[15] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/01/27-minutes
<NoahM> Attendance list to be cleaned up by Noah
Larry: note minutes 'present' list didn't get PLinss
Noah: put off approval of F2F minutes
administrative items
(short discussion of progress on filling TAG vacancy)
Noah: John would like to put off discussing action-355 until next
week (out sick)
Agenda 6. ISSUE-39 (rdfURIMeaning-39) & ISSUE-57 (HttpRedirections-57)
& ISSUE-14 (httpRange-14)
<NoahM> 303 Status Code Redirections
noah: Jonathan raised issue and he would like to have a discussion
of which issue to track this under
jar: The problem in general was discussed at F2F
action-532?
<trackbot> ACTION-532 -- Jonathan Rees to propose changes to status
of issue-39 & issue-57, and perhaps opening new issue relating to H.
Halpin's concerns about 200 responses Due: 2011-02-22 -- due
2011-02-21 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [16]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/532
[16] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/532
jar: I am going to be doing a lot more work on this, and a lot more
discussion, how should we track this
noah: was discussed under HTTP semantics, F2F agenda didn't show
this
<jar> Larry: (1) how meaning is connected to URI (2) what mechanism
to use
<NoahM> ISSUE-14?
<trackbot> ISSUE-14 -- What is the range of the HTTP dereference
function? -- closed
<trackbot> [17]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/14
[17] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/14
larry: there's a general problem ("how to associate meaning with a
URI") and specific mechanisms ("303 Redirect") and the two are
intertwined but...
noah: some of this was raised under issue-14
jar: Went back and read minutes of March 2002
... When Tim framed the problem, 'what is the range of HTTP
dereference' was raised perhaps ironically
... Larry was right! The "real issue" was "How is meaning associated
with a URI", and the "http range" issue was subsidiary to that
Noah: I came into that discussion with a different view of
"representation"
... I don't think it's fair to say that (broad range of views) were
represented
JAR: more interesting to look at what people want to do
noah: prior discussion was under certain issues, we should reuse
issue numbers for tracking
jar: it is my preference to have a new issue
<NoahM> LM: The general issue is how we associate "meaning" with
URIs
<jar> maybe new issue title - associating meaning with uris
<NoahM> LM: tdb scheme then becomes a TAG topic as a possible
mechanism
<NoahM> LM: I meant the tdb/duri document as a contribution
representing not necessarily the right mechanism, but at least an
alternative mechanism
lm: it may be that different mechanisms are appropriate at different
times
noah: .action jar to propose an issue page around topic 6 of 2/24/11
tag meeting
<NoahM> ACTION-532?
<trackbot> ACTION-532 -- Jonathan Rees to propose changes to status
of issue-39 & issue-57, and perhaps opening new issue relating to H.
Halpin's concerns about 200 responses Due: 2011-02-22 -- due
2011-02-21 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [18]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/532
[18] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/532
<NoahM> close ACTION-532
<trackbot> ACTION-532 Propose changes to status of issue-39 &
issue-57, and perhaps opening new issue relating to H. Halpin's
concerns about 200 responses Due: 2011-02-22 closed
<NoahM> . ACTION Jonathan to create issue page relating to Harry
Halpin's concerns about 200/303 responses
<NoahM> ACTION Jonathan to create issue page relating to Harry
Halpin's concerns about 200/303 responses
<trackbot> Created ACTION-534 - Create issue page relating to Harry
Halpin's concerns about 200/303 responses [on Jonathan Rees - due
2011-03-03].
Update on Registries
action-531?
<trackbot> ACTION-531 -- Larry Masinter to draft document on
architectural good practice relating to registries -- due 2011-04-19
-- OPEN
<trackbot> [19]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/531
[19] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/531
noah: had a substantial discussion at F2F
<noah> LM: I have discussed with application area directors and have
engaged with Michelle Cotton who runs IANA
LM: We discussed registration issues relating to MIME types, etc.
Aim is to raise awareness, engage conversation. These are copied to
www-tag list.
... There is important discussion to be had regarding both
architecture and process
<noah> I have read the emails.
<noah> JAR: Read them, looks great. Kudos.
<noah> AM: +1
<noah> Note, minutes of F2F discussion of this are mislabeled under
[20]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/02/10-minutes#item05
[20] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/02/10-minutes#item05
<scribe> ScribeNick: noah
IETF Meeting preparation
Slides from Henry:
[21]http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/iab_panel_2011.html
[21] http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/iab_panel_2011.html
AM: All the technical stuff is in the last slide. I'd like more
meat.
LM: Yes. The expectation is that this will be a technical talk.
Feedback is to shift toward more technical. The intro stuff is fine
as far as it goes.
NM: Are we ready to flesh out the technical bits now?
AM: Well there are bullets:
* Use of URIs for identifying (parts of) application state
* Rethinking privacy
* Web Security as it becomes Application Security
* Device APIs: the difficulty of distinguishing between protocol and
API
<Larry> ScribeNick: Larry
ashok: "rethinking privacy" -- what is that supposed to cover?
... does that cover minimization? do not track?
<noah> AM: Are we going into detail on privacy, e.g. minimization
stuff, etc?
AM: for example
... what is "web security becomes application security"
<noah> LM: Let's take the privacy one. We're talking in the TAG
about API minimization, so we could go into that.
<noah> LM: Also missing is discussion of fragids and state.
<noah> LM: Also talking about storage, and communication of
application state.
lm: there should be some slides on that
noah: would like to have TAG discussion of #!
am: I've been working on client-side state, and added some
discussion of #!, i will check it in and we can talk about that in 2
weeks
larry: don't think it works with prague schedule
noah: should schedule discussion of #! asap
<noah> LM: Would you do a slide or two on client-side state
handling?
<noah> AM: Yes.
lm: would you be willing to draft some slides on client-side state
and #! ?
<noah> ACTION-500 more or less done, just need to make sure Henry is
registered.
<noah> close ACTION-500
<trackbot> ACTION-500 Coordinate about TAG participation in IETF/IAB
panel at March 2011 IETF closed
<noah> ACTION-517?
<trackbot> ACTION-517 -- Larry Masinter to figure out what to say
about scalability of access at IETF panel -- due 2011-02-15 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [22]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/517
[22] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/517
<noah> LM: I need help with ACTION-517. We've groaned about this
one, how the W3C site gets overloaded.
<noah> LM: This affects IETF use of URIs in datastructures as well
as W3C ones.
lm: I'd like someone else to help with action-517
noah: don't think we can tell IETF we've solved it
<noah> NM: I think there are issues at two levels. One is the level
you said, which is that sites like W3C's and potentially IETF's get
overloaded.
<noah> NM: What's perhaps deeper is the fact that the specs for the
Web-level protocols don't provide for any mandatory rate limiting or
flow control.
lm: asking Noah to generate slide "problem statement" + "directions"
<noah> ACTION: Noah to draft IAB meeting slide on scalability
issues. recorded in [23]http://www.w3.org/2011/02/24-tagmem-irc]
[23] http://www.w3.org/2011/02/24-tagmem-irc
<trackbot> Created ACTION-535 - Draft IAB meeting slide on
scalability issues. [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2011-03-03].
Larry: link 535 to action-517
<noah> close ACTION-499
<trackbot> ACTION-499 Prepare product description page for work on
IETF presentation. closed
<noah> LM: Part of the presentation should be, how do we want to
work with IETF and IAB in the future.
<noah> Noah hopes Henry will see that in the minutes of this telcon.
<noah> LM: Noah, what should slide 8 say?
<noah> LM: Example, there is an IAB document on protocol
extensibilty. I thought it was interesting, and interestingly
different from where we went with our own versioning discussion.
<noah> Welcome Henry.
noah: Larry's been working as human cross-reference, we should
handle this more regularly
<noah> LM: There is a liaison effort, but not TAG or IAB focused.
noah: DanC used to be active in IETF/W3C coordination
<noah> NM: Yeah, part of the way we used to cover that was with Dan
Connolly's participation?
<noah> LM: TAG meeting near IETF sometime?
lm: joint phone call, etc?
<noah> LM: When I look at what John Peterson's email was asking,
it's primarily technical
<noah> HT: Yes, but we agreed we needed some background as well.
<noah> LM: Yes, agreed.
lm: I think we can summarize our understanding of the problem, and
note the kinds of solutions we're talking about
<noah> LM: We spend a lot of time talking about semantics, URIs and
meaning, etc. We aren't talking about that. Why not in this
presentation?
<noah> HT: Wasn't convinced they'd be interested, or stated
differently, those who are interested there are already engaged
(e.g. Mark Nottingham)
<noah> LM: But I think it's important that they understand why we
care, or why it might have impact.
<noah> HT: Fair enough.
<noah> LM: Frame as: we're not making random suggestions. Semantic
Web is important for linking data and not just documents,
understanding what data is about, etc. W3C is working on this, and
IETF mostly isn't.
<noah> LM: There may be some other things under the banner "things
you should be glad we're working on"
lm: When we tell HTTP we want some changes to specs, or want IANA to
maintain stable URIs ... why do we care? What is this about?
noah: applications link to documents; sometimes apps looks like
apps, and sometimes apps look like documents that just are
implemented as apps
... these things have architectural impact
ht: need to go
W3C web site on Architecture
action-381?
<trackbot> ACTION-381 -- Jonathan Rees to spend 2 hours helping Ian
with [24]http://www.w3.org/standards/webarch/ -- due 2011-02-28 --
OPEN
[24] http://www.w3.org/standards/webarch/
<trackbot> [25]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/381
[25] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/381
noah: we've had actions for 3-4 years and i'm nervous about
scheduling this, it just seems like a bigger job
[26]http://www.w3.org/standards/webarch/
[26] http://www.w3.org/standards/webarch/
Lm: There is already a site, and an outline with 6 topics, of which
only 1 is filled out
<NoahM> Web Arch slices it as:
<NoahM> * Identification
<NoahM> * Interaction
<NoahM> * Data Formats
lm: it's already public
jar: It's been a while since I've been able to see WebArch
freshly.... the real work to be done here is presentation.
noah: why do we use the word protocol when it uses the word
interaction
jar: that's the least of our worries
noah: outline of webarch is not a bad outline
jar: it isn't succeeding
noah: it isn't widely read, but they are useful
<jar> lm: ian's outline is there, can we just fix it up
noah: I suggested, as a start, to change them to match webarch
+1 to noah's suggestion
noah: things like "meta-formats" might be higher level
larry: you now have a suggestion on action-381
noah: whoever does the work should look at best practices in
webarch... are there any stories we should tell
larry: don't recapitulate, just make pointers
s/topic: web site/topic: web site action-381/
<jar> this is helpful, recorded in minutes, i will review when i
work on it
adjourn
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Noah to draft IAB meeting slide on scalability issues.
recorded in [27]http://www.w3.org/2011/02/24-tagmem-irc]
[27] http://www.w3.org/2011/02/24-tagmem-irc
[End of minutes]
_________________________________________________________
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Received on Wednesday, 2 March 2011 16:47:33 UTC