- From: fantasai <fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net>
- Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 12:02:12 -0700
- To: www-style@w3.org
Summary:
- Discussed whether telecon agenda should be public or private. So far
administrivia has been kept off the public mailing list, and since
there wasn't much enthusiasm for shifting the agenda, it will stay
on the internal mailing list
- RESOLVED: For CSS2.1 Issue 24
duplicate malformed declarations rule for malformed statements
(statements rule to come after declarations rule in the spec)
- RESOLVED: Yves' message about class selector grammar
<http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0299.html>
is a non-issue.
- RESOLVED: Accept Bert's proposal on CSS2.1 grammar
<http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0619.html>
- RESOLVED: Publish update to CSS2.1 with errata incorporated
- RESOLVED: adopt Brad Kemper's border-image proposal to avoid relayout but
make the syntax easier to understand
<http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Mar/0389.html>
<http://www.bradclicks.com/cssplay/border-image/Thinking_Outside_The_Box.html>
====== Full minutes below ======
Attendees:
Bert Bos
David Baron
Elika Etemad
Sylvain Galineau
Daniel Glazman
Melinda Grant
Håkon Wium Lie
Chris Lilley
Peter Linss
David Singer
<RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/04/08-css-irc
Scribe: Chris Lilley
Agenda - Member or Public
-------------------------
Can we discuss the sophia agenda briefly?
Chris asks why agenda is member only but minutes are public
Admin is member only, tech is public
Daniel: chris suggests sending agenda to the public list
Bert: why? no advantage
dd: agenda almost always public. any member -specific stuff is rare and
can be discussed separately
<dsinger> I think the current arr. Is odd but right
Peter: can post the agenda minus the dial in numbers to the public list
dbaron: public may have useful feedback
Melinda: if agenda is early enough
Bert: don't want to do this, writing for the public takes to much time.
unecessary
Sylvain: specific example?
Bert: want to hide spelling mistakes
Peter: how about we send the agenda to the members mailing list and
send a synopsis to the public mailing list
<dsinger> Has any public asked?
ChrisL: dave - no
<dsinger> They see the minutes
dbaron: how would they ask for it without knowing it exists
Daniel: minor issue, no consensus to move to public agenda.
<dsinger> It is work to fix, and does not seem worth it
... could take more time to sort through public feedback before meeting
ChrisL: ok, thanks for considering it
Daniel: we stay as we are for the time being
CSS2.1 Issue 24
---------------
<glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2009JanMar/0212.html
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-24
Everyone had an action to read Bert's email and prepare for discussion
fantasai: made comments in email
<fantasai> no, actually, last week's minutes
<dbaron> the " apple][ {color: red}" is actually a lot more complicated
than Bert said
fantasai: wasn't berts comment supposed to be sent to public list?
dbaron: contents of email seem reasonable but i don't see a proposal
dbaron: two examples look a bit complex
<dbaron> complex in that they're more complicated than stated because of
()/[]/{}-matching
Bert: my preference is to not do anything
Bert: this is as far as I got
fantasai: it doesn't adress selectors. want it to cover at-rules and
declaration blocks
fantasai: idea that you match brackets and quotes is clear enough without
specific microparsong rules
fantasai: there is an error in the spec as we changed the wording and
introduced a new issue
fantasai: proposal was that the part on malformed declarations was
changed to stateents
<fantasai> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/syndata.html#parsing-errors
<fantasai> There's a rule about malformed declarations
fantasai: should be "statements and declarations"
Bert: not sure you always know if you are in a statement or not
fantasai: in one if you are not in a declaration
fantasai: @rule is always a statement
fantasai: if you are in a decl skip to end of decl, else skip to end of that statement
Bert: no statements inside an @media
Bert: they look like statements, but they aren't according to the grammar
Bert: hence the complex email, there are different types of @rules. @media
and @page are different
Bert: take last example in my email
Bert: you are at the top level then you see an invalid string. have not
started the first statement
Bert: have to assume you are unless you are clearly not eg a comment
Bert: would like it to be as simple as elika says but doubt it is that simple
fantasai: only unclear case is inside @page in css3
fantasai: so suggest duplicating the malformed rule for statements, then
add more detail in css3 paged media
Daniel: good compromise. is it acceptable?
Bert: imples an error inside an @rule causes whole @rule to be ignored?
fantasai: depends on where it occurs
fantasai: not if the @rule has declarations.
fantasai: trap points are statements and declarations
dbaron: yes
<dbaron> I think in the long run we should have a single grammar that has
"unexpected content" productions that match pretty much anything
and which correspond to the pieces that get ignored
Sylvain: what are the chars that are matched?
<fantasai> fantasai: brackets and quotes
<sylvaing> yeah so content:"}" does not cause havoc
<dbaron> also [
<fantasai> and '
<fantasai> :)
<sylvaing> ()/{}/[]/""/''
Daniel: any objections to fantasai's proposal
(none heard)
Bert: ok lets try it
RESOLVED: duplicate malformed declarations rule for malformed statements
(statements rule to come after declarations rule in the spec)
dbaron: I think in the long run we should have a single grammar that has
"unexpected content" productions that match pretty much anything
and which correspond to the pieces that get ignored
dbaron: this is a rather big project
Daniel: I agree in principle, on desirability and timeline
issues with CSS2.1 Grammar
--------------------------
<glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0299.html
<ChrisL> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0538.html
Daniel: should a class be a name instead of an ident?
* sylvaing loves Yves signature quote
dbaron: why?
fantasai: I think he missed the point of the section
Daniel: and why to escape the first digit
fantasai: This section is comparing css1 and css2, I think he is confused.
CSS2.1 longer allows this
Daniel: agree, not an issue
RESOLVED: non-issue
<dbaron> somebody should respond :-)
<glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0538.html
ACTION: daniel to respond to yves saying why ident is not an issue
<sylvaing> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0538.html
* dbaron notes that Yves's signature quote is not handled very well by
Google Translate
Bert: yes, the S token is ambiguous
* ChrisL would be surprised if google translate can deal with nissart
Bert: ok to change the grammar
Daniel: so remove s* from end of import?
Bert: yes
bert's response http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0619.html
<Bert> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0619.html
Peter: agree
Bert: yves says its easier if no non terminals can produce an empty string
... can accept that
Daniel: any objection?
(non heard)
Daniel: choices in berts email seem harmless
... and obvious
RESOLVED: accept berts proposal on gramar
ACTION: bert make the changes in
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0619.html
Sylvain: do we have any outstanding 2.1 issues before publication?
Daniel: no, so lets publish and update as soon as possible
fantasai: bert and I will check all the edits have been made
dbaron: so i put an issue on the end of the list
+SteveZ
dbaron: font-weight bolder and lighter, want to backport from css3 to css 2.1
<dbaron> issue 111
ChrisL: is it simple to specify?
dbaron: yes but no proposed text yet
Bert: prefer to see actual text
(several) yes
dbaron: fine to publish but there is more stuff to do
fantasai: boris has some pending issues on anonymous tales still to come
RESOLVED: publish and update to css 2.1 asap
<fantasai> Bert, we should schedule a day to coordinate on 2.1
Fallback color on background-image
----------------------------------
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0536.html
fantasai: at f2f we decided I would propose text so we don't need to
discuss this now
Fallback on border-image
------------------------
<glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Mar/0389.html
<glazou> http://www.bradclicks.com/cssplay/border-image/Thinking_Outside_The_Box.html
Daniel: who can summarise this?
fantasai: several open issues from discussions with dave hyatt,
brad kemper's proposal addresses all of them
fantasai: look at his pictures
fantasai: if image fails to load, layout jumps around. also layout
changes depending on border-image support
fantasai: so want it to not affect border-width
fantasai: example with a jutting corner
fantasai: makes a lot of sense
fantasai: also says designers want an image where layout aligns with a
given point of the image, wants to allow some overflow
fantasai: minor issues to discuss on mailing list, precise syntax, but
we should adopt this
fantasai: hyatt and roc in gfavour
Daniel: demoed boder image, people were scared by the nuber of arguments
and this adds four more. its hard to remember
fantasai: maybe a shorthand with individual properties like border-image-offset
fantasai: more understandable at expense of adding more properties
Daniel: public wants it to be simpler and easier to understand. need to
look at very carefully
... seems to meet web designer's wishes
Bert: what if the border image is wider than the box itself?
fantasai: probably it gets clipped
dbaron: there is some rule to explain how to handle this
fantasai: needs to be worked out in detail
Daniel: any objection to moving forward on this proposal
howcome: not studied in detail yet
Daniel: so, do we adopt this direction and develop it further?
... main issue is relayout which is a big issue
fantasai: hyatt raised this also
Daniel: does make sense
Daniel: any disagreement?
(none heard)
Daniel: several options, functional notation or shorthand
Sylvain: I like the proposal, but usability of the syntax is a concern
RESOLVED: adopt this direction to avoid relayout but make the syntax
easier to understand
next f2f in sophia
------------------
<fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/sophia-2009
Daniel: need agenda items to help people with travel planning
fantasai: pleae add topics to the wiki
* dsinger makes it easy!
dsinger: no specific ones to suggest but might be difficult getting
apple dev there as right before out dev conference
<Bert> Currently known topics: test suites, and grid/matric/template layouts
SteveZ: last day of japan f2f should have a list of topics
fantasai: will add them
* sylvaing can confirm alexmog will also be there so there will at least
be a real engineer for Microsoft :)
dsinger: three day meeting all day?
Daniel: yes
Other
-----
Daniel: any other items?
howcome: thinking on column break vs page break. any strong opinions?
fantasai: melinda and i discussing, no opinions yet
howcome: want to bring back the column-break-{before, after, inside}
rather than having this in the page properties
SteveZ: then you have an interaction problem
howcome: yes, needs to be defined
<melinda> I'm kinda leaning the same way... maybe with a shorthand to
combine them...???
howcome: yes, shorthand could be good. will propose text
adjourned
<RRSAgent> http://www.w3.org/2009/04/08-css-minutes.html
Received on Monday, 8 June 2009 20:02:51 UTC